Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

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Originally Posted by IceEyes

This is something on the language of successful success.

Why you just cant accept not everyone enjoy fight format, like in modern FF14. This is just not fun. Do all by guides not fun, learn even fight from 0 with a lot of wipes not fun, body checks not fun, meta-gaming in MMO (like picto in FRU) not fun, strict selection in PF not fun. It might be fun with friends (if you're on the same wave, of course), but you could just as easily do anything and it would still be fun.

Yes, everyone can do that, but why u think people avoiding that?

Most of grind types in this game not fun. Most of crafters sit on macros application. That not fun. Most of raiders whom i know personally used any applications what up their QoL and that not fun.

I basically don’t understand the concept of a fight in which I can manage my class well, but this is only a ridiculous 10% of the success of the raid, because nothing depends on me except DPS and throwing debuffs / buffs into timing.

I'd prefer more fights where can easily сarry casuals, which is based on personal game my experience and not whether someone stayed on wrong place or not.

People don't like to learn\repeat anything, unless you are a special, rare "breed" of players.
This does not mean that casuals do not want to do anything and avoid any type of content, it only means that fight content that is more difficult then MSQ have very a high difficulty jump that casuals are not interested in.

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Okay, I don't understand what content "casuals" want then. You've listed a lot of the content the game has to offer as not fun, which is honestly really funny, why even play at that point? Do you want more content like Bozja/Eureaka, Deep Dungeons, BLU, Variant Dungeons? Isn't that content coming just in later patches?

"People don't like to learn" really says it all honestly.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

Sorry, are normal raids not casual content? I think you need to have a little more faith in yourself, as do other casual (those with an aversion to endgame content) players. You are allowed to be new, especially to new content. Also, if I'm understanding correctly, you don't feel comfortable in dungeons above 80? I would appreciate if you would explain why if that's possible, although I will not press you of course.

...

Your worries of being a drain on the team sounds like more of a personal issue, and while I sympathize as I have been there myself, at the end of the day this is a video game and none of us know each other and it's just really not that deep. While I may loathe someone in the moment for making the roulette taking longer than it needs to, I am more than likely not going to see them again and forget. Sometimes we think about ourselves a little too much, what we can do is ask for advice and criticism on what we can do better, which are what learning parties are for! And you will naturally find people who believe in you and encourage you, even if it's only a stranger in a PF for 1-2 hours.

Accepting that you are a weak link and a drain is nothing but a wall created by, well, what I can only assume is insecurity. But I promise I don't mean that in a harsh way.

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Yes, normal raids are usually regarded as casual content, and I have no doubt I could be carried through M1-4N. If I did them repeatedly (like ~ 50 times) I might be able to get through all of them without dying, although I'd probably be doing less dps than the healers. But why would I? Remembering where to put my feet isn't interesting to me.

Insecurity? I don't think so. Professional poker players have been characterized as having "a self-confidence bordering on arrogance." It's a survival characteristic.

As to dungeons above about level 80, combination of things. The speed of AoEs gets faster, mechanics overlap. From a design point of view, I think boss tells are far more interesting than orange puddles, but I find many of them impossible to pick up even when I'm checking the cast bar so I know they're coming. Like the bosses hair is pointing in a direction to indicate the direction of a cleave? Simply can't pick it up, despite spending hours fiddling with settings. I just bung a Dorito on the healer and follow them around which isn't very interesting. Anything in which I have to remember a delayed AoE pattern I just can't do it. Around Troia and up I don't think I've completed a dungeon without dying. Which I know is part of the process, but it's an irritant to the competent members of the light party.

Now I'm quite old (I played Doom on release), so maybe that is part of it. Equally in (the admittedly much simpler content) of Frontline, I invariably get at least one of the positive stats on the front page, and often a couple. So the hands are working okay. Not so sure about the brain.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

Okay, I don't understand what content "casuals" want then.

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So you don't believe there's a middle ground between piss dead easy and "Oh Lord, when will this end already so I can get out of here?"

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

You've listed a lot of the content the game has to offer as not fun, which is honestly really funny, why even play at that point? Do you want more content like Bozja/Eureaka, Deep Dungeons, BLU, Variant Dungeons? Isn't that content coming just in later patches?

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Combat in FF14, in my personal opinion, hasn't ever been all that fun, it was just... alright. I put up with it, because other parts of the game were fun and I enjoyed the story.

It doesn't matter how much they shove EX, Savage, Ultimate, Chaotic in my face, I know I'm never ever going to touch it. It's not for me. The people who enjoy it, more power to them, go wild. But, the rest of us would like something to do as well, especially those of us who spent that last 3-4 years and ran out of content.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

"People don't like to learn" really says it all honestly.

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This is just insulting. There's a difference between wanting to learn something because you find it enjoyable, and having to learn something because you have to.

Anyone can do the first, and everyone learns when it's something they're actively interested in learning. The second, well... if they want to force me to do something I consider a chore, then I'll take a monthly salary and health benefits, and I'll learn and work hard at anything they want me to do. I play video games for fun, to be entertained, not looking for a second job.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

There's a difference between wanting to learn something because you find it enjoyable, and having to learn something because you have to.

Anyone can do the first, and everyone learns when it's something they're actively interested in learning. The second, well... if they want to force me to do something I consider a chore, then I'll take a monthly salary and health benefits, and I'll learn and work hard at anything they want me to do. I play video games for fun, to be entertained, not looking for a second job.

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This almost seems to be another philosophical difference between casual and hardcore players. I was reading something on r/ffxivdiscussion in which someone was explaining they now had 70 clears of CAR, and how horrific their last week or so had been, and how completely shattered they were and... I'm just blinking at the screen trying to understand why anyone would do this if they weren't getting paid.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

So you don't believe there's a middle ground between piss dead easy and "Oh Lord, when will this end already so I can get out of here?"


Combat in FF14, in my personal opinion, hasn't ever been all that fun, it was just... alright. I put up with it, because other parts of the game were fun and I enjoyed the story.

It doesn't matter how much they shove EX, Savage, Ultimate, Chaotic in my face, I know I'm never ever going to touch it. It's not for me. The people who enjoy it, more power to them, go wild. But, the rest of us would like something to do as well, especially those of us who spent that last 3-4 years and ran out of content.


This is just insulting. There's a difference between wanting to learn something because you find it enjoyable, and having to learn something because you have to.

Anyone can do the first, and everyone learns when it's something they're actively interested in learning. The second, well... if they want to force me to do something I consider a chore, then I'll take a monthly salary and health benefits, and I'll learn and work hard at anything they want me to do. I play video games for fun, to be entertained, not looking for a second job.

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I didn't say that, but you do you, and there is a middle ground is there not? Like I said, BLU/Beastmaster, Deep/Variant Dungeons, Normal Raids, whatever. Savage and everything in between can be as piss easy as you want it to be if you take the time to learn, so yes, I will double down on "People don't like to learn" really saying it all. People don't have the patience to sit down and learn anymore, just like the whole DS debacle of people wanting an easy mode, those games are only as hard as you make them out to be.

So again, what content DO you want? You don't like the combat, so what, you want something like island sanctuary to just sit around in all day? I honestly do not get why you are playing an MMO at that point, especially if you don't like the combat as it is key to the game, current class identity issues aside.

I'm not trying to shove Savage/EX/whatever down people's throats, just encouraging. But also I am honest to god just sick of hearing people whine about content that is there that they are simply choosing not to do, almost always due to laziness. You make the content as fun as you want it to be.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

I'm not trying to shove Savage/EX/whatever down people's throats, just encouraging. But also I am honest to god just sick of hearing people whine about content that is there that they are simply choosing not to do, almost always due to laziness. You make the content as fun as you want it to be.

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Do you engage with game content, in 14 or elsewhere, that you do not enjoy?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Do you engage with game content, in 14 or elsewhere, that you do not enjoy?

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No, I enjoy everything in 14. I apologise I didn't reply to your last post the amount coming in is a lot.

Continuing on, as you can see I have been around this game for ages. FFXIV has always been a combat centred MMO, the big focus has always been on raiding and similar content, so hearing people complain about the main appeal of the game is confusing and exhausting. I would love for them to release more casual content, and I know that it is coming in future patches. The content is literally being made so I don't understand this casual strike uprising angle.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

FFXIV has always been a combat centred MMO, the big focus has always been on raiding and similar content

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lol. idk what to answer.

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Originally Posted by IceEyes

lol. idk what to answer.

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That you don't enjoy doing anything in the game I guess? Lol.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

No, I enjoy everything in 14. I apologise I didn't reply to your last post the amount coming in is a lot.

Continuing on, as you can see I have been around this game for ages. FFXIV has always been a combat centred MMO, the big focus has always been on raiding and similar content, so hearing people complain about the main appeal of the game is confusing and exhausting. I would love for them to release more casual content, and I know that it is coming in future patches. The content is literally being made so I don't understand this casual strike uprising angle.

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I think the melodrama stems from frustration.

I don't think the big focus of 14 can be on raiding when on NA/EU it is a minority activity. Similarly, while I understand the argument that the game is combat centered (we're the warrior of light, not the culinarian of light), there's a significant population of players who regard the dungeons as an unavoidable impediment they need to get through to enjoy the story, and their RP, and their house, and their crafting, and their custom deliveries, and...

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

I didn't say that, but you do you, and there is a middle ground is there not? Like I said, BLU/Beastmaster, Deep/Variant Dungeons, Normal Raids, whatever.

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Done and dusted, for some time now. Back to Deep Dungeons solo will be my focus after I max out my jobs. So yea, been there done that. I've done every piece of casual content the game has.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

Savage and everything in between can be as piss easy as you want it to be if you take the time to learn, so yes, I will double down on "People don't like to learn" really saying it all. People don't have the patience to sit down and learn anymore, just like the whole DS debacle of people wanting an easy mode, those games are only as hard as you make them out to be.

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Don't play Dark Souls, don't care about Dark Souls. I play games to have fun and be entertained and unwind, not to flex online about how good I am at a game. I put effort into things I like and enjoy, if I have to put effort into things I don't enjoy, I expect a paycheck. If you like doing that, more power to you, stop telling me to enjoy things I know I don't enjoy. I also don't enjoy watching paint dry, but I don't judge people who might.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

So again, what content DO you want? You don't like the combat, so what, you want something like island sanctuary to just sit around in all day? I honestly do not get why you are playing an MMO at that point, especially if you don't like the combat as it is key to the game, current class identity issues aside.

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I didn't say I don't like combat, I said I find FF14's combat to be just alright. It's not exactly the pinnacle of fun combat is it? Memorise, press rotation, stand and wait for some mechanic to finish. And I play MMOs because I like the fantasy of another living world, why do you get to decide who gets to play MMOs and why? And Island Sanctuary? Also done... meh!

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

I'm not trying to shove Savage/EX/whatever down people's throats, just encouraging. But also I am honest to god just sick of hearing people whine about content that is there that they are simply choosing not to do, almost always due to laziness. You make the content as fun as you want it to be.

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You don't encourage when you tell people who already explained why they don't enjoy that content, that they should do that content and shut up and like it, because they're rightfully complaining there's nothing left for them to do. Encourage someone who's wondering if they should give it a try instead.

OK, I guess I'm just lazy, got it.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

there's a significant population of players who regard the dungeons as an unavoidable impediment they need to get through to enjoy the story, and their RP, and their house, and their crafting, and their custom deliveries, and...

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...What? Sorry but why are you actually playing the game at that point? Story dungeons have been here since the beginning of the game, genuinely, buy a story skip or watch a playthrough at that point.

I don't get what you guys (specifically the above population mentioned) actually like about this game or the reasons you play it. I am genuinely baffled from that post, like you can literally go play any other game at that point.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

That you don't enjoy doing anything in the game I guess? Lol.

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Right now, yes? Otherwise, I wouldn’t be sitting here on the forum now.

Two years ago, when I dragged my ass into FF14, the only thing I didn't hear compliments about was the combat.

History, cinematography in boss fights, music, general atmosphere of the game, interesting community, good side activities like fishing or gold saucer. But, i never heard something like "wow, this battle so cool maked, its captivate you by the first mechanics and does not let go of your attention until the very end".
Honestly, I have never heard of this in any MMO what tried (unless, of course, you are a hardcore raider, lol).

Moreover, i tried to invite few friends and no one stayed here for now, they said same thing "boring pve, awkward pvp". One of them made it to EW in a ridiculous 2-3 weeks, and it took him another 2-3 weeks to close p9s-p11 in actual gear time.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Done and dusted, for some time now. Back to Deep Dungeons solo will be my focus after I max out my jobs. So yea, been there done that. I've done every piece of casual content the game has.


Don't play Dark Souls, don't care about Dark Souls. I play games to have fun and be entertained and unwind, not to flex online about how good I am at a game. I put effort into things I like and enjoy, if I have to put effort into things I don't enjoy, I expect a paycheck. If you like doing that, more power to you, stop telling me to enjoy things I know I don't enjoy. I also don't enjoy watching paint dry, but I don't judge people who might.


I didn't say I don't like combat, I said I find FF14's combat to be just alright. It's not exactly the pinnacle of fun combat is it? Memorise, press rotation, stand and wait for some mechanic to finish. And I play MMOs because I like the fantasy of another living world, why do you get to decide who gets to play MMOs and why? And Island Sanctuary? Also done... meh!


You don't encourage when you tell people who already explained why they don't enjoy that content, that they should do that content and shut up and like it, because they're rightfully complaining there's nothing left for them to do. Encourage someone who's wondering if they should give it a try instead.

OK, I guess I'm just lazy, got it.

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I didn't say shut up and like it LMFAO I said at least give it a try, or at least was trying to convey that point.

I'm solely annoyed at people stark raving about there not being enough casual content when that has never been the centred content of the game. It has always been about raiding/dungeons/extremes/whatever first. If you have done all the casual content you do realise you can unsub and come back when there's more? Instead of demanding a cut in hardcore content for more casual content, which you specifically might not be doing but there are people in this thread who are.

Focus on hardcore content, casual content suffers (despite the numerous casual activities coming up in the patches), focus on casual content, oops the endgame is gone, what then?

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

34 pages until someone could explain it succinctly. Thank you. Basically this.

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Y'all are straight up playing the wrong game and genre.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

I didn't say shut up and like it LMFAO I said at least give it a try, or at least was trying to convey that point.

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I have given it a try, that's how I know I don't like it. I don't need to repeat more of them to know I still won't like it. I tried the SB EX, I tried Savage, I tried a DT EX with some raider friends too and I didn't like it.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

I'm solely annoyed at people stark raving about there not being enough casual content when that has never been the centred content of the game. It has always been about raiding/dungeons/extremes/whatever first. If you have done all the casual content you do realise you can unsub and come back when there's more? Instead of demanding a cut in hardcore content for more casual content, which you specifically might not be doing but there are people in this thread who are.

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You might be annoyed, and I'll give you, you have the right to get annoyed at people trying to say remove the content from the game.

I don't want them to remove the content from the game. But there's definitely not enough casual content in the game, for the ratio of casual to hardcore players that exist in the game. And in that regard, we're completely right in complaining. And I can't unsub can I? I have an FC, submarines, houses and friends I socialise with, in the game. I'd still like to have more stuff to do, and not just chores like beast tribes and IS, actual fun activities. Why is that so hard for people to accept?

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

Focus on hardcore content, casual content suffers (despite the numerous casual activities coming up in the patches), focus on casual content, oops the endgame is gone, what then?

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Focus on hardcore content, you lose subs, you can't focus on 20% of your player base and expect the other 80% to be happy about it. And casual content is going to be done by all of the player base regardless. The raiders have tons to do, they need to put resources back into the team to also give everyone else tons to do.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Don't play Dark Souls, don't care about Dark Souls. I play games to have fun and be entertained and unwind, not to flex online about how good I am at a game. I put effort into things I like and enjoy, if I have to put effort into things I don't enjoy, I expect a paycheck. If you like doing that, more power to you, stop telling me to enjoy things I know I don't enjoy. I also don't enjoy watching paint dry, but I don't judge people who might.

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It's kind of wild how people portray and misrepresent the souls series like this still, like it was purposefully made painful so people could go flex online, to me more than flexing is about learning to overcome difficult odds, and how exciting it feels to finally overcome an enemy. Something you cannot feel if the game isn't challenging at all.

There's also this weird misconception of Savage/Extreme being a HARDCORE-PLAYERBASE only content. Like you're really unaware that the most hardcore people in the raiding community are done within the month. Plenty of casual statics out there for people who want to tackle this slowly.

In fact I'd only count HARDCORE to those players who do World First, Week First and do parse runs to get high FFLOGS rankings, everyone else sort of just wants to get their clear.

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Originally Posted by NamiRocket

Y'all are straight up playing the wrong game and genre.

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Well, thank you for telling me, the last 4,5 years I've been playing the wrong game and genre. Truly, an enlightening comment. I'm curious, how is it I was able to have fun for 4,5 years, but suddenly it's the wrong game and genre?

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Originally Posted by Volgia

It's kind of wild how people portray and misrepresent the souls series like this still, like it was purposefully made painful so people could go flex online, to me more than flexing is about learning to overcome difficult odds, and how exciting it feels to finally overcome an enemy. Something you cannot feel if the game isn't challenging at all.

There's also this weird misconception of Savage/Extreme being a HARDCORE-PLAYERBASE only content. Like you're really unaware that the most hardcore people in the raiding community are done within the month. Plenty of casual statics out there for people who want to tackle this slowly.

In fact I'd only count HARDCORE to those players who do World First, Week First and do parse runs to get high FFLOGS rankings, everyone else sort of just wants to get their clear.

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What on earth are you on about? Who's misrepresenting the Dark Souls series, I wasn't the one who brought up the Dark Souls series. I don't play the Dark Souls series, I don't care about the Dark Souls series.

I tried EX, I tried Savage, I don't bloody like it. Why's that a problem for you?

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

What on earth are you on about? Who's misrepresenting the Dark Souls series, I wasn't the one who brought up the Dark Souls series. I don't play the Dark Souls series, I don't care about the Dark Souls series.

I tried EX, I tried Savage, I don't bloody like it. Why's that a problem for you?

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And I don't care what you consider hardcore or not. I've done everything casual in the game. I've done Deep Dungeons, I've gotten 60 Eureka, I've done Bozja, I've done Blu and all spells, I've done all yellows, all blues, Variant, you name it, I've done it. My map is literally empty in every single zone.

Why must I do content I've no interest in, just because you decide so?

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Why must I do content I've no interest in, just because you decide so?

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This is so funny. Why do you feel like we're forcing you to do anything?

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I have given it a try, that's how I know I don't like it. I don't need to repeat more of them to know I still won't like it. I tried the SB EX, I tried Savage, I tried a DT EX with some raider friends too and I didn't like it.


You might be annoyed, and I'll give you, you have the right to get annoyed at people trying to say remove the content from the game.

I don't want them to remove the content from the game. But there's definitely not enough casual content in the game, for the ratio of casual to hardcore players that exist in the game. And in that regard, we're completely right in complaining. And I can't unsub can I? I have an FC, submarines, houses and friends I socialise with, in the game. I'd still like to have more stuff to do, and not just chores like beast tribes and IS, actual fun activities. Why is that so hard for people to accept?


Focus on hardcore content, you lose subs, you can't focus on 20% of your player base and expect the other 80% to be happy about it. And casual content is going to be done by all of the player base regardless. The raiders have tons to do, they need to put resources back into the team to also give everyone else tons to do.

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I would LOVE for there to be more casual "chore-ish" activities that are fun and I accept that the chores are that, chores, like weapon grinding or tomestones. However I don't think it should take precedence over hardcore/battle content being released. Do you have a source for the 20/80? Obviously I know the numbers are exaggerated to make a point, but I would like to see something that backs your point, because surely if that were the case they would have started making casual content the main appeal long ago.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

This is so funny. Why do you feel like we're forcing you to do anything?

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Well, let's see now.

First you misrepresent me by stating I'm misrepresenting Dark Souls, when all I said is I don't care about Dark Souls, after someone brought up Dark Souls, not me.

Secondly, you assume I've not tried EX or Savage and somehow would enjoy it if I do, when I've literally said I've no interest in it.

Someone else is telling me I'm playing the wrong game and genre, after I've spent 4,5 years having done everything else in the bloody game.

And for some reason, all these raiders can't understand the possibility that someone else might not enjoy the same things they do, and might possibly want something else for themselves to do and take is as a personal affront.

I don't care if you like hardcore raiding, go for it. I don't want them to remove hardcore raiding, have fun with it. But, I would like to also get my money's worth and have some activities to do in the damn game. Is that so bad?

I appreciate that we've finally departed from this nonsensical 'neurobiology dictates that only 1% of people have the theoretical potential to clear savage' and arrived at the real limiting factor: finding something fun or not.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Well, thank you for telling me, the last 4,5 years I've been playing the wrong game and genre. Truly, an enlightening comment. I'm curious, how is it I was able to have fun for 4,5 years, but suddenly it's the wrong game and genre?

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No problem, sis. I'm always here for you.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

I would LOVE for there to be more casual "chore-ish" activities that are fun and I accept that the chores are that, chores, like weapon grinding or tomestones. However I don't think it should take precedence over hardcore/battle content being released. Do you have a source for the 20/80? Obviously I know the numbers are exaggerated to make a point, but I would like to see something that backs your point, because surely if that were the case they would have started making casual content the main appeal long ago.

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No, I don't have a source, like you said, hyperbole to explain the point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

I would LOVE for there to be more casual "chore-ish" activities that are fun and I accept that the chores are that, chores, like weapon grinding or tomestones. However I don't think it should take precedence over hardcore/battle content being released. Do you have a source for the 20/80? Obviously I know the numbers are exaggerated to make a point, but I would like to see something that backs your point, because surely if that were the case they would have started making casual content the main appeal long ago.

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These numbers usually come from Lucky Bancho. Lucky Bancho uses Lodestones publicly available achievements to gauge an estimate of the games population and their progress in the game. Unfortunately, I don't have a link for that at hand, its fairly well known resource.

According to the current Lucky Bancho, ~20-25% of players allowed to enter Savage (Character at level 100, have cleared Arcadion 4 Normal) have cleared the last floor. This has been, at least to my knowledge, fairly constant over the course of this games life. (That of course does not say how many people attempt at it, or how many people actually play the content, even if unsuccessfully)

ETA: looks like it has been answered above too, was Hyperbole. Will keep that post here up though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

I would LOVE for there to be more casual "chore-ish" activities that are fun and I accept that the chores are that, chores, like weapon grinding or tomestones. However I don't think it should take precedence over hardcore/battle content being released. Do you have a source for the 20/80? Obviously I know the numbers are exaggerated to make a point, but I would like to see something that backs your point, because surely if that were the case they would have started making casual content the main appeal long ago.

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No content should take precedent over the other, frankly. But the developers do not really make an effort to try and please both groups of players simultaneously. Instead they just yoyo between the two.

That being said if we look at publicly available achievement data according to XIVCollect, there are 237,890 characters with public achievements. Of those, 84% (200,634) have the achievement for Completing the Main Scenario Quest "Vows of Virtue, Deeds of Cruelty) 61% (145,532) has discovered every location at the southern front. 53% (128,202) have cleared Delubrum Reginae at least once. 42% (101,397) have discovered every location in Zadnor,. 39% (94,441) have cleared Dalriada at least once. Keep in mind this is only players with public achievement data, and this is probably the closest data you'll get for casual content unless Lucky Bancho reports on it.

Obviously the 20-80 is hypoerbole, and I do want to emphasis that I don't think either content should take precedence over the other. But the fact is that SE in the long-term actually gives both equal precedence.. But yes you would at least figure they would try and introduce this content sooner.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

These numbers usually come from Lucky Bancho. Lucky Bancho uses Lodestones publicly available achievements to gauge an estimate of the games population and their progress in the game. Unfortunately, I don't have a link for that at hand, its fairly well known resource.

According to the current Lucky Bancho, ~20-25% of players allowed to enter Savage (Character at level 100, have cleared Arcadion 4 Normal) have cleared the last floor. This has been, at least to my knowledge, fairly constant over the course of this games life. (That of course does not say how many people attempt at it, or how many people actually play the content, even if unsuccessfully)

ETA: looks like it has been answered above too, was Hyperbole. Will keep that post here up though.

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Thanks, I do appreciate something that is somewhat a source (I'm very much interested in the statistics). As you said, it's not a reliable number, how many people have attempted, have kept trying, etc. Also not counting private lodestones. I myself have not cleared a final tier of a raid since Coil but have cleared the other fights, and still thoroughly enjoy raiding, as I am sure there's many a number of other people out there like me (vouching for pretty much my entire friend group and people I've spoken to as well as raided with.)

Either way, these numbers aren't concerning SE enough to change the main appeal of the game and the main content the produce for the game.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

Well, let's see now.

First you misrepresent me by stating I'm misrepresenting Dark Souls, when all I said is I don't care about Dark Souls, after someone brought up Dark Souls, not me.

Secondly, you assume I've not tried EX or Savage and somehow would enjoy it if I do, when I've literally said I've no interest in it.

Someone else is telling me I'm playing the wrong game and genre, after I've spent 4,5 years having done everything else in the bloody game.

And for some reason, all these raiders can't understand the possibility that someone else might not enjoy the same things they do, and might possibly want something else for themselves to do and take is as a personal affront.

I don't care if you like hardcore raiding, go for it. I don't want them to remove hardcore raiding, have fun with it. But, I would like to also get my money's worth and have some activities to do in the damn game. Is that so bad?

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I didn't assume anything. The Dark Souls analogy is there so you understand why people like raiding and that it has nothing to do with "flexing online". This isn't me forcing you to play content you don't like, you're getting upset over nothing.

Also, flip this over. I love raiding content, and I exhaust it pretty fast because there's so little of it. It's not fair for me to suddenly demand they stop adding content for housing so we can have more savage content, Chaotic Raids was added to no detriment of the way they release content.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I appreciate that we've finally departed from this nonsensical 'neurobiology dictates that only 1% of people have the theoretical potential to clear savage' and arrived at the real limiting factor: finding something fun or not.

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The neurobiology argument almost broke me.

I feel if there were a way to do that they would have done so already. I know that (from what I've heard at least) we are currently experiencing a bit of a content drought, but there IS casual content coming, and quite a bit at that. I know it's frustrating that it's not immediately available, but it is coming. I do hope SE pick up the ball again and are able to have better content releases, more content per patch and more frequent, as much as it's wishful thinking atp lmao.

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Originally Posted by LateNightSuki

Thanks, I do appreciate something that is somewhat a source (I'm very much interested in the statistics). As you said, it's not a reliable number, how many people have attempted, have kept trying, etc. Also not counting private lodestones. I myself have not cleared a final tier of a raid since Coil but have cleared the other fights, and still thoroughly enjoy raiding, as I am sure there's many a number of other people out there like me (vouching for pretty much my entire friend group and people I've spoken to as well as raided with.)

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In regards to the private lodestones - that goes both ways. It would be unfair to say that only one group of people puts their lodestone on private. As with all statistics, it does help giving it a good ballpark. Consider that people not interested in the combat encounters may not have played M4N and as such are not eligible to enter savage. So, I think its fair to say that somewhere between 20-30% of players do Savage. Which is a good number of people, mind you, and I am not the one advocating for the removal of Raid Instances.

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Either way, these numbers aren't concerning SE enough to change the main appeal of the game and the main content the produce for the game.

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That however is not quite right though, I'm afraid - the situation is bad enough that Yoshi-P has openly asked people not to retire from FFXIV. The main appeal of this game has not always been raids, CS3 struggle with a content pipeline layout that satisfies all of their customer bases.

Changing the appeal of the game is not what should asked - part of this thread is about is that the timeline of how content is supposed to be released is baffling to some players. It would be better to release different styles of combat content like Field Operations or a Deep Dungeon earlier in an expansion as that gives players battle content to do that is a change from "room with boss".

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I didn't assume anything. The Dark Souls analogy is there so you understand why people like raiding and that it has nothing to do with "flexing online". This isn't me forcing you to play content you don't like, you're getting upset over nothing.

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No, the Dark Souls analogy was brought up, because it's notorious for being harder than most games, and comes with the usual "git gud" mentality. That's why it was brought up. And again, I don't care. I don't play games to "git gud". I improve at a game passively, over time, by playing it, for as long as I find it entertaining. I've no interest in online bravado and flexing. If people enjoy Dark Souls, they can play Dark Souls, if people enjoy hardcore raiding, they can do hardcore raiding.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Also, flip this over. I love raiding content, and I exhaust it pretty fast because there's so little of it. It's not fair for me to suddenly demand they stop adding content for housing so we can have more savage content, Chaotic Raids was added to no detriment of the way they release content.

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So little of it? Twelve Savages per expansion, Eight Extremes per expansion, Ultimates, of which Endwalker has two, and Dawntrail already has one and it's only patch 7.1 (we're likely to get another), and a Chaotic Alliance Raid. There's nothing little about the amount of high-end raids.

I appreciate that you enjoy high-end raiding, but you already got two extremes, one ultimate, four savages. Without SE providing more resources to the team to add more content overall (it would be great if they did!), would it have really hurt you, if they released the next casual piece of content before releasing Chaotic? Who's really being unfair here?

All I've had since finishing DT MSQ is one dungeon, and time gated beast tribes. They couldn't even release both the crafting and combat role quest epilogue at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

No, the Dark Souls analogy was brought up, because it's notorious for being harder than most games, and comes with the usual "git gud" mentality. That's why it was brought up. And again, I don't care. I don't play games to "git gud". I improve at a game passively, over time, by playing it, for as long as I find it entertaining. I've no interest in online bravado and flexing. If people enjoy Dark Souls, they can play Dark Souls, if people enjoy hardcore raiding, they can do hardcore raiding.


So little of it? Twelve Savages per expansion, Eight Extremes per expansion, Ultimates, of which Endwalker has two, and Dawntrail already has one and it's only patch 7.1 (we're likely to get another), and a Chaotic Alliance Raid. There's nothing little about the amount of high-end raids.

I appreciate that you enjoy high-end raiding, but you already got two extremes, one ultimate, four savages. Without SE providing more resources to the team to add more content overall (it would be great if they did!), would it have really hurt you, if they released the next casual piece of content before releasing Chaotic? Who's really being unfair here?

All I've had since finishing DT MSQ is one dungeon, and time gated beast tribes. They couldn't even release both the crafting and combat role quest epilogue at the same time.

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Sorry but for every piece of content, except for Ultimate and recently Chaotic, you have a NORMAL regular easy version. We have "Three extremes already", but you have three normal DT trials. We have "12 savages", but you have 12 normal raids. Even Criterion and it's savage counterpart has this. So hardcore people only get 1 to 2 pieces of content exclusively for them an EXPANSION.

Where as the easy content you will get 4 more dungeons, and for the non combat stuff you get 3 different tribe quests, custom deliveries, a new bozja like zone, cosmic exploration, PVP, crafting/gathering updates and rewards. The content is still 80/20 between raiders and non raiders.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Sorry but for every piece of content, except for Ultimate and recently Chaotic, you have a NORMAL regular easy version. We have "Three extremes already", but you have three normal DT trials. We have "12 savages", but you have 12 normal raids. Even Criterion and it's savage counterpart has this. So hardcore people only get 1 to 2 pieces of content exclusively for them an EXPANSION.

Where as the easy content you will get 4 more dungeons, and for the non combat stuff you get 3 different tribe quests, custom deliveries, a new bozja like zone, cosmic exploration, PVP, crafting/gathering updates and rewards. The content is till 80/20 between raiders and non raiders.

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The problem is, is that the replay value between both pieces of content are not nearly the same. Like, you can't really sit there with a straight face for example and say Normal mode MSQ trials offer the same replay value and longevity as an Extreme, which has many people replaying that a great deal of times times for a mount, or more if they are unlucky and don't want to wait 4 months. Same thing with Normal raids, the gear is invalidated the same second it releases. Why do you have weekly gated normal mode gear with equivalent item level to crafted DoW/M gear which is significantly easier to obtain. Same thing with Alliance Raid and augmented crafted.

You can say they get a few pieces of content 'exclusive' to them, but really that's not even the point. The replay and longevity value of the overlapping content is significantly different. In the same vein that releasing casual content like large-scale raids benefits a lot more players than just casual folk. It still has several pieces of content behind it which are pretty good incentive to anyone seeking a challenge.

It's 50-50, in the grand scheme of things, and ultimately they have a bad content pipeline. Now, I don't know exactly whether you're defending that pipeline or just replying to OP, but it's absolutely absurd for both casual players and raiders alike.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Sorry but for every piece of content, except for Ultimate and recently Chaotic, you have a NORMAL regular easy version. We have "Three extremes already", but you have three normal DT trials. We have "12 savages", but you have 12 normal raids. Even Criterion and it's savage counterpart has this. So hardcore people only get 1 to 2 pieces of content exclusively for them an EXPANSION.

Where as the easy content you will get 4 more dungeons, and for the non combat stuff you get 3 different tribe quests, custom deliveries, a new bozja like zone, cosmic exploration, PVP, crafting/gathering updates and rewards. The content is still 80/20 between raiders and non raiders.

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Excuse me? May I ask how often you repeat the Normal mode Trials and Dungeon and for what reason? Outside of Roulette, that is. And let's assume you get them frequently enough while leveling all jobs to 100, once you've maxed out all your jobs, what do you do then? And what rewards do you receive from repeating said content?

Alas, we repeat the single Alliance Raid once a week, and that's only if we even care to get a full gear set, maybe... Likely going to quit after rolling 3 on the minion for the upteenth time?

Now let's consider you're a hardcore raider, I'll assume you raid with a static or PF? There's a certain amount of repetition you need to perform in order to clear and then continue on to receive all rewards? Perhaps you're in it for the mount at the end? Repeat until you get lucky or collect enough tomes to buy the EX mount? Repeat again until everyone in your group has received all the rewards?

It's not even a close equivalency and you know that. We do a Normal Trial and Dungeon once to progress the MSQ and then it's just fodder for the DF. It's not something anyone works toward over a period of time. We repeat the Alliance Raid once a week for maybe two to three times? Five if you get really unlucky with your gear drop? And then what? Sit around and twiddle our thumbs?

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

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I think it’s worth mentioning too; (almost) nobody ever do these normal contents ‘because it’s fun’. If anything the most people treat expert roulette or alliance raids like a burden they have to suffer through and not as genuine ‘content’ lol.

But don’t worry, there’s allied tribe quests. Whatever they’re called now lol. They’re real fun lol… /s

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Originally Posted by Connor

I think it’s worth mentioning too; (almost) nobody ever do these normal contents ‘because it’s fun’? If anything the most people treat expert roulette or alliance raids like a burden they have to suffer through and not as genuine ‘content’ lol.

But don’t worry, there’s allied tribe quests. They’re real fun lol… /s

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This bears repeating.

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Originally Posted by NamiRocket

Y'all are straight up playing the wrong game and genre.

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Originally Posted by NamiRocket

This bears repeating.

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I mean 14 can’t even figure out what genre it wants to be

You can barely play this as an MMO but nor can you really play this as a standalone FF title in the series

It’s like a second life sim with a side of PVM

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Originally Posted by NamiRocket

This bears repeating.

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If expecting the game’s content to be satisfying/fun at any level somehow means I ‘don’t belong in an MMO’, then yeah I don’t want to belong in an MMO lol.

least I’m finally in the demographic they're shooting for