Give Warrior the Dark Knight treatment in regards to Bloodwhetting

Dark Knight feels bad in 60-70 dungeons, and I think that has more to do with the fact that its a job that feels like trash under level sync, despite being a HW job.

I think DRK is fine in dungeons beyond that point, and I think its part of a larger issue about how shitty level sync is getting in this game more than anything DRK specific, like maybe Abyssal Drain is undetuned compared to the other tanks but thats about it.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Dark Knight feels bad in 60-70 dungeons, and I think that has more to do with the fact that its a job that feels like trash under level sync, despite being a HW job.

I think DRK is fine in dungeons beyond that point, and I think its part of a larger issue about how shitty level sync is getting in this game more than anything DRK specific, like maybe Abyssal Drain is undetuned compared to the other tanks but thats about it.

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Lots of jobs feel bad at lower levels. For example PLD at level 79 or lower has 0 ogcd/inherent selfhealing. (And then gets overcompensated in the last 11 levels.)

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Originally Posted by aiqa

Lots of jobs feel bad at lower levels. For example PLD at level 79 or lower has 0 ogcd/inherent selfhealing. (And then gets overcompensated in the last 11 levels.)

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Low level PLD is compensated by having permanent block chance the other tanks don’t have

PLD functionally has something like a permanent ~7% mitigation on itself just by nature of being a PLD

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Low level PLD is compensated by having permanent block chance the other tanks don’t have

PLD functionally has something like a permanent ~7% mitigation on itself just by nature of being a PLD

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10% chance for 20% mitigation is not 7% overall mitigation, that is 2% (for the things that can be blocked). And that isn't anywhere near compensating for any significant amount of self healing.

To be sure I didn't make a mistake for block strength/rate when leveling down. I did a quick level 60 fate using a level 665 shield. That scaled block strength down to 18% mitigation, and it took about 20 hits to get 1 block so the normal 10% block rate cap seem to apply to level sync to.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

10% chance for 20% mitigation is not 7% overall mitigation, that is 2% (for the things that can be blocked). And that isn't anywhere near compensating for any significant amount of self healing.

To be sure I didn't make a mistake for block strength/rate when leveling down. I did a quick level 60 fate using a level 665 shield. That scaled block strength down to 18% mitigation, and it took about 20 hits to get 1 block so the normal 10% block rate cap seem to apply to level sync to.

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I swore it was higher but regardless that 2-3% permanent mitigation (and that will scale harder with more mobs in say a dungeon) is pretty much exactly decent compensation for having no rotational healing

Again WAR is the outlier here, until HOC GNB only gets its rotational heals and aurora and DRK only gets its rotational heals and abyssal drain

The mistake comes from retroactively making nascent flash weak bloodwhetting at level 56

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I swore it was higher but regardless that 2-3% permanent mitigation (and that will scale harder with more mobs in say a dungeon) is pretty much exactly decent compensation for having no rotational healing

Again WAR is the outlier here, until HOC GNB only gets its rotational heals and aurora and DRK only gets its rotational heals and abyssal drain

The mistake comes from retroactively making nascent flash weak bloodwhetting at level 56

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There is no way to go over 2% (I refuse to count "lucky RNG" as a valid way to go over 2%). It never gets to 2-3% mitigation from passive blocking, no matter how many mobs attack you. It only goes down from 2% due to level scaling and unblockable stuff, never up.

And sure I agree tank self healing overall, and tank team support eating into the healer role, needs a balance pass. Lowering selfhealing on WAR in particular and PLD slightly less so, make sure DRK and GNB are somewhat on par, and remove ogcd AoE healing/shielding/regen.

But the assumption that (best case) 2% mitigation will compensate for any significant amount of selfhealing is just not true long before PLD got selfheals in EW. That 2% mitigation is about equivilant to 2500 healing for a fully geared level 90 tank, every time their health goes down from 100% to 0. Dying faster than healing 2500 means you might be pulling to much and not using your other defenses properly. Realistically block only pulls ahead of selfheals for the levels when tanks have 0 selfheals. Not counting actually losing the healing abilities at some level, scaling down to lower levels changes the max health and healing amount and incoming damage, that cancels eachother out about as much as you can expect from lower level balance in FF.

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Originally Posted by aiqa

There is no way to go over 2%. It never gets to 2-3% mitigation from passive blocking, no matter how many mobs attack you. It only goes down from 2% due to level scaling and unblockable stuff, never up.

And sure I agree tank self healing overall, and tank team support eating into the healer role, needs a balance pass. Lowering selfhealing on WAR in particular and PLD slightly less so, make sure DRK and GNB are somewhat on par, and remove ogcd AoE healing/shielding/regen.

But the assumption that (best case) 2% mitigation will compensate for any significant amount of selfhealing is just not true, long before PLD got selfheals in EW. That 2% mitigation is about equivilant to 2500 healing for a fully geared level 90 tank, every time their health goes down from 100% to 0. Dying faster than healing 2500 means you might be pulling to much and not using your other defenses properly. Realistically block only pulls ahead of selfheals for the levels when tanks have 0 selfheals. Not counting actually losing the healing abilities at some level, scaling down to lower levels changes the max health and healing amount and incoming damage, that cancels eachother out about as much as you can expect from lower level balance in FF.

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It’s worth about 2500 healing every time the tanks HP goes from 100-0, yes and think about how many times a PLD takes sequential damage that would end up being lethal if not for healing, a regular pull even in a gimped 90 dungeon would still take you from 100-0 3-4 times in terms of total damage taken over the course of the pull which of course that all is partially blocked because block is always up

As I said it’s basically compensation for the self heal on storms path/souleater/brutal shell, then clemency is equal to your aurora/abyssal drain (clemency gives you more control at the expense of damage), it’s WAR that throws it all out of alignment because of nascent flash, equilibrium and thrill

Small nitpicks, but at lvl 56 is Raw Intuition and I think you meant Bloodwhetting for the second response (though they're more or less same except NF still heals the WAR because..reasons?)

But yeah, passive blocking isn't really as potent as some people might make it out to be. Sure it's rng passive mit but the Paladin is still going to be mincemeat if they actively try relying on it to survive.

I never really felt like Paladin was supposed to have a rotational self-heal and that the only time I considered blocking as compensation for that was when Holy Sheltron guaranteed them. Passive blocking would need a buff if it truly was supposed to make up for it, though I would like to see the healing taken out of the Confiteor combo and Holy Spirit/Circle.

I felt like blocking was at it's best when Holy Sheltron guaranteed it but they revamped it to give mit instead due to bleeds and gave PLD Bulwark back.

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Originally Posted by Derio

But DRK is really only bad in dungeons and even then that is only if you have bad group dps to where the incoming damage is faster than the adds are dying to where the healer has to actually do their job.

Many healers are so used to any other tank than DRK in the dungeon so when they do get a DRK its almost like you are trolling for bringing the DRK to the dungeon.

Funny how AD was gutted a while back, we lost sole survivor only for them to bring it back in PVP. Salted earth heals in PVP why not in PVE?

Then you have to talk about DRK pre lvl 70 because we all know compared to the other tanks how bad it is to not have TBN in dungeons. DRK is the only tank to not get homogenized in the tank sustain department and in casual content that is not a good thing.

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DRK is fine in dungeons, provided said DRK knows what they're doing. If the player is actually using their mits, they barely take any damage and are easy enough to heal with the occasional OGCD. You just can't straight up ignore them like you can most other tanks.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s worth about 2500 healing every time the tanks HP goes from 100-0, yes and think about how many times a PLD takes sequential damage that would end up being lethal if not for healing, a regular pull even in a gimped 90 dungeon would still take you from 100-0 3-4 times in terms of total damage taken over the course of the pull which of course that all is partially blocked because block is always up

As I said it’s basically compensation for the self heal on storms path/souleater/brutal shell, then clemency is equal to your aurora/abyssal drain (clemency gives you more control at the expense of damage), it’s WAR that throws it all out of alignment because of nascent flash, equilibrium and thrill

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Taking damage of 3 or 4 times their max health maybe happens the most extreme pulls. In the latest level 90 dungeon it's generally less than 2 times, and that dungeon has some relatively big fights. And a GNB does between 1500 and 2000 HPS on those. So block would be equivalent to healing only if the whole fight lasted 4 second, and all incoming damage would be stuffed into those 4 seconds. In reality they take about 10 times as long (generally you can use abilities with 1 minute cooldown every pull, and taking into account about 20 seconds of running). So that means doing big pulls in dungeons at level 90, block is equivalent about 2500*2/40= 125HPS (equivalence to healing per full health bar, times the number of full health bars lost in a fight, divided by the time the fight takes). That isn't going to compensate for much, even in the in the most extreme cases of 3 or 4 health bars lost per fight.

There is a good reason Clemency is almost never used. Losing a GCD for a selfheal is almost never a good idea. That means mobs live longer so they attack you longer, so you take more damage. And the extra time you take to kill the mobs means your other defenses are more likely to run out, so you take even more damage. Clemency is a bit like (but even worse then) Cure1 on WHM, or rez on SMN, in that it's very situational and you want to avoid is unless you absolutely need it, or when you have nothing else to do. You can't easily balance that directly against other stuff that you can use far more freely, and is useful far more generally.

Devs finally managed to figure this all out in EW and gave PLD some much needed passive healing (but unfortunately overcompensated quite a bit).

/edit
Just to be sure I did some extended testing against a level 90 enemy. Block rate was a bit higher than I thought, it ended up at 20%. So an overall mitigiation of 4% and double all those numbers about HPS equivalence and such. Still not anywhere equal to what any sustain from other tank do. In big endgame pulls which is where block "shines" it would be equal to about 250 HPS, maybe slightly more on some of the biggest pulls.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I wouldn't even call it bad in dungeons, it's simply the baseline. With current healer kits DrK is still easy to heal with just oGCDs (provided they actually use cooldowns), the game just doesn't play itself like it does with the other tanks.

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And even then, in standard endgame dungeons, it only behaves like this 2 pulls out of 3, the rest being essentially covered by Living Dead...

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I swore it was higher but regardless that 2-3% permanent mitigation (and that will scale harder with more mobs in say a dungeon) is pretty much exactly decent compensation for having no rotational healing

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I think it's roughly 4% (20% rate of 20% strength, roughly similar to parry with more stat variations). I could be wrong though but I remember kite shields (every shield above lvl49) having that kind of ratio.

Personally I find the issue is not warrior but the state of tanking as a whole. By giving every move threat gain, and removing weaponskills costing TP, you've basically removed all the resource control for tanks (other than Drks). The combat encounters being designed around the concept of a 2m burst aka the world first meta approach to encounters is also not a good thing for tanks. Dev's were left with having to do something in order to give tanks something to do and justify having tanks still in the game, so they started using tank busters, which seemed to be more heavily created alongside TBN (Yes there were tank busters before, but generally boss used a variety of mechs, spawned adds, did arena things, stacked debuffs so you needed to tank swap.) Once they added TBN alongside almost every boss fight being, boss ability rotation ending with a tank buster, they realised they then needed to give the other tanks a way of possibly surviving without just handing TBN to every tank.

Ultimately they need to completely change how tanking works in the game not try and balance individual classes, treat the illness not the symptoms.

Imo WAR and DRK are totally flipped compared to how they should work.

WAR should be the "hit me and I get stronger" tank. It should have something like Blackest Night, though without the magic management.

DRK should be the tank that uses HP as a resource, precariously spending it and then gaining it back with draining skills.

I don't understand why they play the way they do currently. The only reason I main DRK is because of TBN, which is flavorfully separate from everything else in DRK's kit. If it didn't exist I wouldn't be playing such an emo class.

Right, so Media Tour dropped earlier. Can we talk about WAR AGAIN?

Because I took a look at Xenosys's recent upload where they essentially tanked the entire first dungeon with NO HEALER. This just goes to show they are ignoring us for their favorite child. I will die on this hill until either Bloodwhetting changes or we start getting major backlash about WAR in general.

Get ready to see yet another Savage get canned by "Oops! All WARs".

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Right, so Media Tour dropped earlier. Can we talk about WAR AGAIN?

Because I took a look at Xenosys's recent upload where they essentially tanked the entire first dungeon with NO HEALER. This just goes to show they are ignoring us for their favorite child. I will die on this hill until either Bloodwhetting changes or we start getting major backlash about WAR in general.

Get ready to see yet another Savage get canned by "Oops! All WARs".

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...it's actually wild because RI/NF/BW tooltip says the heal is supposed to trigger for each successful weaponskill, not each enemy hit with a weaponskill.

Even if you only get 3-4 heals on top of a heal worth in shield and a pocket rampart, it would still be a really good cooldown in dungeons. On top of all other tools of mitigation, shield and sustain, Warrior really does not need per-hit healing on this.

The only other two actions that work for every enemy hit are Abyssal Drain which has over double the CD, half the heal potency and is unavailable in single-target... and Bloodbath from melees that is like 20-25% of damage dealt.

Talk about unfair and boring...

That's still the case with Bloodwhetting on the Media Tour build.

The issue with self-sustain implementation on WAR is that it supports low skill gameplay by letting people recover from mistakes and overcome vuln stacks. Here's an example of a Dawntrail WAR solo after a party wipe. I wish that this was at least exciting to watch, and I can see a lot of newer players being put off by having to spectate fights for 20 minutes on wipe.

At the very least, there needs to be a way for non-enraging fights to forcibly terminate current level encounters if you're down to one tank for like 5 minutes.

I just can't believe that someone designed a 2,000 potency (let's account for 5 enemies which is actually pretty timid in dungeon pulls) heal back to back 4 times ability on a 25 sek cd, and someone else playtested this and said:"Yes, this is fine." I just can't. Imagine giving a DD a 30 sec ogcd ability with 8,000 potency and call it a day.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

At the very least, there needs to be a way for non-enraging fights to forcibly terminate current level encounters if you're down to one tank for like 5 minutes.

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They could just add a new system into 4 man dungeons.

When only 3/4 party members are alive in the arena, the boss will do 5% more damage.
When only 2/4 party members are alive in the arena, the boss will do 30% more damage.
When only 1/4 party members are alive in the arena, apply Berserk to the boss, making them only autoattack, but boosts their damage by 200% and boosts their move speed.

That way, you do still have a chance to beat the fight when the healer dies, but the tank has to try and keep the 2 DPS alive or they'll have to deal with a massively buffed boss. It'll put a complete stop to tanks soloing bosses from 70% HP while the rest of the party watches.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

I just can't believe that someone designed a 2,000 potency (let's account for 5 enemies which is actually pretty timid in dungeon pulls) heal back to back 4 times ability on a 25 sek cd, and someone else playtested this and said:"Yes, this is fine." I just can't. Imagine giving a DD a 30 sec ogcd ability with 8,000 potency and call it a day.

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They'd rather further detereriorate the gameplay integrity than make bald axe man mad.

Yes! Nerf it! I cant stand Warriors when I do roulettes as a healer because it means I dont get to do my job since WAR doesnt need me.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

They'd rather further detereriorate the gameplay integrity than make bald axe man mad.

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Bald Axe Man can Bald. Influencers in particular don't ultimately decide how the game is, it's just their audiences are large and they tend to help shape some of the game in different perspectives.

But in general? Even looking at damage taken they can still outheal all of it(while the other three tanks can't). We're going to be stuck with WAR's crap until 8.0, apparently, so get ready for another 2 years of yelling into the void.

I'm pretty sure we have it on note that they do infact listen to him on tank feedback specifically.

Which would be fine if his take towards every tank wasnt "tank homogenization bad but how can we make this more like WAR"

Massive self-healing has been WAR's identity for like 90% of the job's existence, it's very funny that people just started complaining in ShB. The one time it wasn't a thing was a period in SB when they yoinked Bloodbath from tanks and gave it to the melee DPS, and even THEN the devs eventually gave Steel Cyclone innate lfiesteal, because again, self-healing is their thing.

Instead of taking toys away from one job that makes them stand out people should be campaigning for other jobs to get their own "moments of power" to shine rather than being crabs in a bucket. I'd argue PLD also has a cool identity in that clemency is better at carrying through potential wipes so they can consistently heal multiple people throughout an encounter if they have to, whereas WAR healing is bursty and their main healing method is on a cooldown and can only target 1 person.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Massive self-healing has been WAR's identity for like 90% of the job's existence, it's very funny that people just started complaining in ShB. The one time it wasn't a thing was a period in SB when they yoinked Bloodbath from tanks and gave it to the melee DPS, and even THEN the devs eventually gave Steel Cyclone innate lfiesteal, because again, self-healing is their thing.

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I don't think anyone has a big problem with self-healing.
Keyword: Self

Why does WAR get to heal OTHER people? Why do they have a partywide shield + regen? Why can they heal as good as or even better than a healer job completely for free?

There's no problem with a self-healing tank, WAR in HW wasn't extremely hated by all healers because they can't sustain the party by themselves, they could sustain themselves for a time, but they couldn't keep everyone else up as well.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Massive self-healing has been WAR's identity for like 90% of the job's existence, it's very funny that people just started complaining in ShB. The one time it wasn't a thing was a period in SB when they yoinked Bloodbath from tanks and gave it to the melee DPS, and even THEN the devs eventually gave Steel Cyclone innate lfiesteal, because again, self-healing is their thing.

Instead of taking toys away from one job that makes them stand out people should be campaigning for other jobs to get their own "moments of power" to shine rather than being crabs in a bucket. I'd argue PLD also has a cool identity in that clemency is better at carrying through potential wipes so they can consistently heal multiple people throughout an encounter if they have to, whereas WAR healing is bursty and their main healing method is on a cooldown and can only target 1 person.

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Tanks shouldn't have heals. Period. It was a bad design from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Bald Axe Man can Bald. Influencers in particular don't ultimately decide how the game is, it's just their audiences are large and they tend to help shape some of the game in different perspectives.

But in general? Even looking at damage taken they can still outheal all of it(while the other three tanks can't). We're going to be stuck with WAR's crap until 8.0, apparently, so get ready for another 2 years of yelling into the void.

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I honestly don't think i will be around to see it, sorta just given up.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

Massive self-healing has been WAR's identity for like 90% of the job's existence, it's very funny that people just started complaining in ShB. The one time it wasn't a thing was a period in SB when they yoinked Bloodbath from tanks and gave it to the melee DPS, and even THEN the devs eventually gave Steel Cyclone innate lfiesteal, because again, self-healing is their thing.

Instead of taking toys away from one job that makes them stand out people should be campaigning for other jobs to get their own "moments of power" to shine rather than being crabs in a bucket. I'd argue PLD also has a cool identity in that clemency is better at carrying through potential wipes so they can consistently heal multiple people throughout an encounter if they have to, whereas WAR healing is bursty and their main healing method is on a cooldown and can only target 1 person.

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Oh shut up man, EVERYTHING is Warrior's identity at this point.
Buff after buff after buff. The job needs nerfs. More buffs across the board JUST to avoid nerfing your favourite just further harms the gameplay integrity.
It just shows how self centered Warrior players are. You don't care that the gameplay experience is deteriorating for everyone. All you want is 123 fell cleave spam for high damage, enjoy the best version of every tank cooldown and be immortal. The consequences of this is that everything else has to be dumbed down as well; Healers have nothing to do because Warrior is spearheading the powercreep on the tank role. Tank players lose their interesting dps rotations because the 123 fell cleave rotation that Warrior's had since level 50 needs to be competitive with them, making any sort of depth to their dps rotation unfair and unrewarding.
Notice how in Eureka Orthos everything oneshots and are damage sponges? Yeah, how else do you challenge the players if they have this level of clownery available to them? Either you just die in 1 hit or you never do.
Warrior's entire job identity is a joke. If you're just arbitrarily the best at everything, you don't have a job identity. You're just overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

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Before we talk about job identity, let's talk about role identity.

Keeping players alive has been part of healers' identity for well before MMO games existed. If you have a non-healer job that can perform those functions and completely invalidate the need for a healer, that's a major game design problem. While there are a number of contributing factors to this, part of the problem is in how self-sufficient tanks have become.

While a bit of 'self-sustain' can add some flavor to a job, the implementation is important. The risk of dying is major part of what makes tanking exciting. Some people struggle with that sort of pressure, which is why tanking isn't for everyone. Passive regens and on-demand burst heals completely take away that risk, like a soothing pacifier designed for baby's first tanks. There, there, you're at 100% again. Nothing can hurt you now.

Self-healing on WAR was different, historically. If you look at ARR's design, WAR's healing toolkit wasn't all that different from what the average melee DPS has access to currently. You couldn't keep yourself up indefinitely. Every solo encounter was a battle of attrition. You could use your cooldowns judiciously, but you were fighting against the clock, sometimes down to the last sliver of your health. That's how tank self-sustain should be. I'm not sure if you saw the Dawntrail media tour dungeon video that I linked earlier, but the WAR literally gets to two or three vuln stacks multiple times when solo and just heals out of it as if nothing happened. This type of healing is just a safety-net that lets you erase your mistakes on demand.

If you want to talk about healing as job identity on tanks, that ship has long sailed. Self-sustain now treated as a baseline feature on every tank, much like mitigation. Did you see the new 40% mitigation tools and their bonus effects? DRK gains an Excog effect that was on GNB's HoC. GNB gains a HP boost effect that was on WAR's ToB. PLD gains a barrier shield effect that was on DRK's TBN. WAR gains a regen effect that was on GNB's Aurora. There are no themes, everyone now has everything. The only differences between tanks is in the quantity of healing, which comes down to balance, not identity.

The whole thing is a mess.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

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“Bloodwhetting on a single target is seriously underpowered”

I genuinely have no idea how someone can hold this opinion

Tanks have about 3000 potency of health so the shield on bloodwhetting is worth about 13% of a tanks HP, shields also do not have falloff scaling when paired with other mitigations. So let’s assume the unmitigated tankbuster does 100% of your HP, in this case bloodwhetting is stronger than HOC and HS oh a purely mitigation basis

Now ignoring the shield HOC and HS mitigate 10% more damage than BW, so in order to overcome the 13% shield deficit they need to mitigate 13% more damage by being 10% stronger. The inflection point for this (assuming no diminishing returns on mitigation) is about a tankbuster that does 180% of the tanks health, not exactly unusual in savage but that’s simply the inflection point. Even an attack that does 3 times the tanks HP only puts BW behind by about 15% of its HP bar

So in your average general savage buster BW is equal, slightly better on weaker busters, slightly worse on stronger busters and this is ignoring that BW’s healing is 60% more than HS and 78% stronger than HOC

So assuming you survive the initial hit the buster needs to be 4.3 times the HP of the tank to make BW weaker and the buster has to be more than 3 times as strong for The WAR to be in danger of dying to the first hit compared to the other 2

go even further with the DRK treatment, take warriors healing away from them, reskin it as generic rampart esc motif and then make it a generic tank skill every tank learns at level 54.
there warriors cant cry, because its already been done to drk from its superior HW version to its soy boy SHB version, so its only keeping to tradition...

It has been established that WAR mains are never contented with what they have and will demand for more.

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Originally Posted by rawker

It has been established that WAR mains are never contented with what they have and will demand for more.

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Actually true, I'm not content. My job has systematically been turned from a tank that was easy to pick up but had intricacies to master into an utterly bland spamfest with overtuned healing and flashy effects to obfuscate the complete lack of creative design, probably one of the most boring jobs I've had the displeasure of experiencing.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

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It's funny how you seem to think the attitude I have is "No no no, mine, mine toys, I don't want to share waaah" when the reality is when I saw the other tanks getting strong self-healing buffs on their cooldowns I was like "oh cool" rather than complaining and crying for nerfs because... Other people get to have fun?

WAR hasn't been "the best" since HW, and perhaps arguably SB. It's always been on the lower end of damage output, and it's self-healing is far less valuable in savage and ultimates where damage is far higher then most encounters in the game. In fact I bet most players don't even know what actual, primary reason people take WAR into hard content is because players are so blinded by fell cleave spam and the fact that you can do dungeons without a healer. Newsflash: You can do the same on other tanks. In fact, you can do dungeons WITHOUT A TANK OR A HEALER AT ALL. I should know because I've done it before in all DPS groups.

Clearly DPS self-survivability and healing needs massive nerfs because it's putting all the supports out of a job.

It's also hilarious you think the job is responsible for "dumbing down" as if the devs took one good look at the job and they were like "oh god what have we done" and not the fact that they've gone on record to say they do it because it makes things easier to balance and more approachable to new players. All the tanks have self-sustain because having agency is FUN. No one likes being at the complete whim of random players, I've played old MMOs where tanks are nothing but HP sponges with garbage damage and garbage healing. You just become a minigame for the healer and you're just there to stand in front of the boss. That's not fun, and guess what, modern MMO devs have realized that. When you do the ACTUAL DIFFICULT CONTENT and not the content your grandma can do, the strengths of every role come into play without one role being able to carry the whole experience.

The fact of the matter is, self-healing IS WAR's thing, has ALWAYS been WAR's thing, and will ALWAYS be WAR's thing. I don't care how garbage their damage is, that's one thing they can, should, and always will keep. If the devs want to sprinkle in some healing on other tanks then so be it but the job deserves to be the best at that one thing. Beg the devs for diversity and strengths for other jobs instead of being crabs in a bucket.

Multiple expansions of the job having crazy self-healing and the devs haven't done anything to nerf it, almost as if it's the intention.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

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How about how WAR encroaches on the healer role. Every buff to tanks to give them their own power fantasy further and further pushes the healers to the edges

On an average savage pull the WAR heals themselves more than the healer heals them, is that not a reason to consider needs to WAR, sure the reason people generally bring WAR is actually ease of play and holmgang but WAR isn’t just warping tanks, it’s warping the healers as well and this is in all levels of play not to mention every buff to the other tanks to counter WAR’s dominance also further warps healers

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

How about how WAR encroaches on the healer role. Every buff to tanks to give them their own power fantasy further and further pushes the healers to the edges

On an average savage pull the WAR heals themselves more than the healer heals them, is that not a reason to consider needs to WAR, sure the reason people generally bring WAR is actually ease of play and holmgang but WAR isn’t just warping tanks, it’s warping the healers as well and this is in all levels of play not to mention every buff to the other tanks to counter WAR’s dominance also further warps healers

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WAR cannot raise, and it can't aoe mitigate and aoe heal to the extent that healers can. Don't be disingenuous. WAR could lose all of its self-healing and healers would still not be healing, because it's an encounter design problem and not the fault of ONE JOB.

Healer oGCDs are so powerful you can do entire savage tiers without a single GCD heal, or minimal GCD healing. That's not the fault of tanks.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

but the job deserves to be the best at that one thing. Beg the devs for diversity and strengths for other jobs instead of being crabs in a bucket.

Multiple expansions of the job having crazy self-healing and the devs haven't done anything to nerf it, almost as if it's the intention.

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The problem with that is that any time Drk DOES something better than War, the War players are up in arms about it and get it streamlined.
Dark knight having reprisal? Unfair, every tank needs this!*Every tank gets it*
Dark knight being the mobility tank? Unfair! *Gets twice as many gapclosers*
Dark knight has the best short cooldown mit? That's sooooo unfair! *Gets bloodwhetting*
Other tank invulns last longer than ours because they have longer cooldowns, so unfair! *Every tank now has the same invuln duration but the cooldowns are untouched*

There's a blatant bias towards Warrior and an overrepresentation of people playing the job, largely thanks to streamers.
Right now, i have *no* reason to play another tank over Warrior, because the ONE thing it lacked in was damage, which is now streamlined too. (As per Warrior player demand)
The job and people playing it leave no breathing room for other tanks to carve out a niche.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The problem with that is that any time Drk DOES something better than War, the War players are up in arms about it and get it streamlined.
Dark knight having reprisal? Unfair, every tank needs this!*Every tank gets it*
Dark knight being the mobility tank? Unfair! *Gets twice as many gapclosers*
Dark knight has the best short cooldown mit? That's sooooo unfair! *Gets bloodwhetting*
Other tank invulns last longer than ours because they have longer cooldowns, so unfair! *Every tank now has the same invuln duration but the cooldowns are untouched*

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Honestly I shouldn't reply because you seem really offended at some imaginary boogieman and are just arguing in bad faith but whatever, I'll bite just so other people can see the actual reasoning rather than being driven nuts by emotion.

Reprisal was made a role action because every single tank lost their mitigation on their combo ender. Rage of Halone, Storm's Path and Delirium. Encounters in the past were designed with these IN MIND, so once they were gone the role needed another way to apply the 10% damage reduction. On top of that players were complaining that PLD and DRK had skills they couldn't use when they weren't actively tanking (loss of shield swipe procs, loss of reprisal and low blow procs) so players were given a way to do so regardless if they were OT or MT. It was win/win.

Other tanks were given gapclosers because people wanted gapclosers. I didn't really care, and wouldn't care if they removed them all, or kept them all or whatever. People over exaggerate how useful they actually are in pve content and they're mostly used for damage (which I'm also okay with). Originally WAR's gapcloser had a gauge cost while Plunge was free which was fine, there were pros and cons. Now GNB/DRK get a non-damaging gapcloser so they can use it EXCLUSIVELY for mobility, so I'm not sure why you're upset about this? Now there' actual differentiation within the role, however small. Which is nice.

Giving the other tanks TBN equivalents was a change in design they were going to do anyway. Active mitigation is more fun and engaging than the older designs. I don't really care which is the strongest or weakest since they're all, in the scenarios they're designed for, more than enough. TBN gets the added benefit of adding depth at high level play because it can be a DPS increase if you carry over the edge proc into raid buffs, but I'm sure no one cares.

The tank invuln thing is blatantly wrong. They got changed because certain tankbusters at the time were so long, "only" PLD and DRK were able to get use out of them. Both WAR and GNB would just die. The devs decided that was a problem, so they increased both their duration. And Holmgang DID get adjusted because of it, so I'm not sure where you're coming from with the "cooldowns are untouched" thing since.... You know it got verifiably nerfed in that department.

Tank players in general throw massive hissyfits when there's even the slighest amount of imbalance. People will complain about small things that don't make an actual difference. In terms of performance all the tanks are probably the closest they have ever been, with DPS output within like 2% of each other and enough mitigation to deal with ALL content in the game with no issue at all and people will still find a reason to complain.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

The problem with that is that any time Drk DOES something better than War, the War players are up in arms about it and get it streamlined.
Dark knight having reprisal? Unfair, every tank needs this!*Every tank gets it*
Dark knight being the mobility tank? Unfair! *Gets twice as many gapclosers*
Dark knight has the best short cooldown mit? That's sooooo unfair! *Gets bloodwhetting*
Other tank invulns last longer than ours because they have longer cooldowns, so unfair! *Every tank now has the same invuln duration but the cooldowns are untouched*

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It's really hard to take you seriously when you insist on blaming WAR players for the dev's choices to homogenize all jobs.

WAR already had Storm's Path in HW when DRK had Reprisal/Delirum. All 3 tanks lost their raidwide mitigation as part of their rotation in SB and got given Reprisal instead.
WAR got Onslaught an expansion after DRK, it was actually unique since it had a shorter cooldown but costed gauge. It got homogenised in ShB to match PLD/DRK/GNB because no one is allowed to have unique things. Literally no one asked for a GCD gap closer or 3rd stack in EW.
ShB Nascent Flash was already better than TBN anyway. No one asked for the Bloodwhetting upgrades, and they happened at the time Sheltron/HoS got big healing buffs through their upgrades too.
Holmgang did get a cooldown nerf, and its duration buff to 10s happened at the same time as Superbolide got buffed because again, the devs don't let any job have unique things.

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Originally Posted by Praesul

WAR cannot raise, and it can't aoe mitigate and aoe heal to the extent that healers can. Don't be disingenuous. WAR could lose all of its self-healing and healers would still not be healing, because it's an encounter design problem and not the fault of ONE JOB.

Healer oGCDs are so powerful you can do entire savage tiers without a single GCD heal, or minimal GCD healing. That's not the fault of tanks.

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So if the WAR doesn't selfheal, and healers don't heal the WAR, how do you imagine the WAR stays alive during any boss fight? And are you saying it would be fine for WAR to lose all selfhealing then? Since it's not needed anyway.

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Originally Posted by Launched

WAR got Onslaught an expansion after DRK, it was actually unique since it had a shorter cooldown but costed gauge. It got homogenised in ShB to match PLD/DRK/GNB because no one is allowed to have unique things.

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Onslaught was homogenised in 6.0, but it's not like it makes much difference to your argument.