What Zero Could've Been

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I mean to be 100% fair, nonconstructive hate is a real thing. Aveyond experiences it in pretty much any thread he makes...

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I'm sorry, but when a man says women shouldn't have "unwarranted" confidence to begin with in a story, can only be sassy if they look like Bayonetta and is incensed that current demonic female characters are daring to not be sexy, all while continually tearing into Y'shtola because she supposedly isn't attractive enough to justify how she acts and complaining endlessly that the female charaters aren't stereotypically hot enough, the men are too weak and essentially that no one looks or behaves comfortably heterosexual enough for his tastes, were you genuinely expecting a nuanced, respectful response to this? It's like asking people to bring formal dinnerware to someone serving a flaming bag of excrement on their doorstep.

Getting a reaction anyone with common sense should rightfully expect when spouting subtly sexist and homophobic nonsense is neither "brigading" nor "hating." It's the same rhetoric every time, he just finds a new target for it.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

What's a 'fora knight'?

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Nothing. Literally zero-sum, zero.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I'm sorry, but when a man says women shouldn't have "unwarranted" confidence to begin with in a story, can only be sassy if they look like Bayonetta and is incensed that current demonic female characters are daring to not be sexy, all while continually tearing into Y'shtola because she supposedly isn't attractive enough to justify how she acts and complaining endlessly that the female charaters aren't stereotypically hot enough, the men are too weak and essentially that no one looks or behaves comfortably heterosexual enough for his tastes, were you genuinely expecting a nuanced, respectful response to this? It's like asking people to bring formal dinnerware to someone serving a flaming bag of excrement on their doorstep.

Getting a reaction anyone with common sense should rightfully expect when spouting subtly sexist and homophobic nonsense is neither "brigading" nor "hating." It's the same rhetoric every time, he just finds a new target for it.

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And yet, nobody is permitted to be even remotely upset over the "Little Sun" moment? I don't see how this is morally equivalent in any way, shape or form personally. I mostly ignored this topic when it devolved into yes, mindless hate. Since Aveyond is frankly not the foe your crusade seems so intent on rooting out and burning away. The fact remains that Magnai did nothing to earn the burn he got, yet the moment anyone points this out suddenly they're a bigot. Maybe Aveyond should have worded it better, but they're not wrong. That moment was merely a character who didn't deserve what he got being deemed an acceptable target.

And, as others have mentioned Aveyond spares the dudes no sympathy so how exactly are they a bigot? To me, it just seems you people are determined to indict Aveyond of something, anything and make it stick. Like a dirty, corrupt lawyer that knows its fighting for the wrong side but soldiers ever onwards for the sake of the paycheque.

Aveyond's just as much a troll as Senti and AwesomeJr. They're just honest about it.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Aveyond's just as much a troll as Senti and AwesomeJr. They're just honest about it.

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Right. The people you disagree with are trolls, but the people you agree with are genuine posters. What happened to the old MightyMollusk? The poster who made genuinely thought-out posts and didn't treat one side with more favor than the other? I used to enjoy reading your posts, now they're just drivel.

I think it's one of those things to agree to disagree on, personally. As a gay guy, I'm interested in and attracted to men who are various degrees of masculine ranging from the classically handsome to the ruggedly handsome. That goes for different types of behaviour ranging from refined to crude and brutish.

It's a video game at the end of the day and I don't care to join a 'fight' to pursue the ever moving goalposts of whatever social media is causing a stir over in the moment. There's really no need to police personal tastes and preferences in aesthetics - especially when efforts have been made to offer compromises only for those very same compromises to be ignored.

Not sure what's meant to be 'homophobic' about priortising and preferring masculinity as a gay or bisexual guy given that a key part of being gay and into men involves...liking men. Though at this point, 'social justice' movements are veering awfully close to the sort of conversion therapy they claim to oppose. Just with a different end result.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I'm sorry, but when a man says women shouldn't have "unwarranted" confidence to begin with in a story, can only be sassy if they look like Bayonetta and is incensed that current demonic female characters are daring to not be sexy, all while continually tearing into Y'shtola because she supposedly isn't attractive enough to justify how she acts and complaining endlessly that the female charaters aren't stereotypically hot enough, the men are too weak and essentially that no one looks or behaves comfortably heterosexual enough for his tastes, were you genuinely expecting a nuanced, respectful response to this? It's like asking people to bring formal dinnerware to someone serving a flaming bag of excrement on their doorstep.

Getting a reaction anyone with common sense should rightfully expect when spouting subtly sexist and homophobic nonsense is neither "brigading" nor "hating." It's the same rhetoric every time, he just finds a new target for it.

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I'm not defending the OP, in fact I've made it quite clear that I'm not endorsing or condemning it. But if this reaction towards Aveyond isn't hate, then why are similar reactions to bad things coming from the other side then classified as 'hate'? Why are the people calling out Lyth for her crap called 'haters' for doing so, but your group responding with an equal amount of vitriol to Aveyond suddenly just people who disagree?

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

I feel like I'm missing something, how does that make sense in this context?

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I said that Aveyond would get similar comments to the ones from here if he made a thread where he said the sky was blue, as it's not about what he says, people just don't like him as a poster, Zanarkand responded with saying that he thought people wouldn't, and I said that he wouldn't, because he is a rational person unlike the people that would. Pretty easy to grasp.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Nothing. Literally zero-sum, zero.

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I may disagree with you on certain topics but I don't see you as entirely irrational like the Fora Knights are

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I feel like I'm missing something, how does that make sense in this context?

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Right. The people you disagree with are trolls, but the people you agree with are genuine posters.

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It's less to do with "agree or disagree" and more to do with his habit of making "controversial" or "hot take" topics and then endlessly repeating himself, often outright stating that he just isn't listening or won't engage with people who disagree with him. The presentation, rather than the message, as it were.

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What happened to the old MightyMollusk? The poster who made genuinely thoughtout posts and didn't treat one side with more favor than the other? I used to enjoy reading your posts, now they're just drivel.

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Age, mounting burnout, increasing cynicism, probably some untreated depression. I could go on, but nobody really wants me to play armchair self-diagnosis. It's also kinda hard to come up with interesting posts when every thread starts to sound pretty much exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I think it's one of those things to agree to disagree on, personally. As a gay guy, I'm interested in and attracted to men who are various degrees of masculine ranging from the classically handsome to the ruggedly handsome. That goes for different types of behaviour ranging from refined to crude and brutish.

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I read british. Why yes indeed.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I'm sorry, but when a man says women shouldn't have "unwarranted" confidence to begin with in a story, can only be sassy if they look like Bayonetta and is incensed that current demonic female characters are daring to not be sexy, all while continually tearing into Y'shtola because she supposedly isn't attractive enough to justify how she acts and complaining endlessly that the female charaters aren't stereotypically hot enough, the men are too weak and essentially that no one looks or behaves comfortably heterosexual enough for his tastes, were you genuinely expecting a nuanced, respectful response to this? It's like asking people to bring formal dinnerware to someone serving a flaming bag of excrement on their doorstep.

Getting a reaction anyone with common sense should rightfully expect when spouting subtly sexist and homophobic nonsense is neither "brigading" nor "hating." It's the same rhetoric every time, he just finds a new target for it.

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I think it's a victimless crime in that case. We're talking about characters in the story, not how men and women should behave and exist in the real world. While I disagree on almost all of his views on the subject and find him unnecessarily close-minded, shouldn't he be allowed to have a preference to a particular archetype? People who better like conservative depictions of male and female characters aren't a threat to progressiveness in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

???

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That's an awful lot of word salad to defend someone who comes up with gems like "Y'shtola should be nicer to Magnai because she's a 3 and he's an 8", "G'raha Tia is a demon who terrorises the WoL with his attempts at seduction" and "why can't women have long hair to make their emotional journey more compelling."

I don't know how any of what you said is supposed to relate to my post, but Magnai is an overbearing, deluded, obnoxious narcissist proclaiming to a complete stranger he just met that she is his long-awaited, fated mystical lover. If anything, Y'shtola was too nice about it.

So? He is literally NOT being silenced. You are not entitled to people agreeing with you. You guys always try to claim to be silenced when people disagree with you but it's an absurd claim because you literally aren't. So long as you're not breaking the rules you aren't gonna be silenced.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

You said it means nothing, but yet continue to use it, and to describe people.

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What you are seeing is straight out of Orwell's Principles of Newspeak, the appendix to 1984.
By inventing words (or redefining existing words) to have no meaning, the words can mean whatever the speaker want, including having a different meaning later as convenience demands. "Troll," "fascist," "hate," "racist," and even a word as basic as "woman" are all suffering from this treatment these days, among others.

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Originally Posted by hobostew

So? He is literally NOT being silenced.

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True, but that doesn't mean people aren't trying to get him silenced, such as by provoking him in the hope he will respond with something that will get him suspended to banned.

Later:

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

recently there has been a push for a new definition of the word 'hate'. This definition was pushed by both the Lyth defense squad and Silverbane herself. The definition they choose to create essentially was this: "A hater is anyone who disagrees with me, or disagrees with what I'm doing"..

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This is, of course, an outright lie, as I've come to expect from SentioftheHoukai's fellow forum stalker AwesomeJr44. As far as I know, the only one who ever has promulgated that definition is AwesomeJr44, as a text search of the forums would no doubt demonstrate -- should anyone give AwesomeJr4 that tiny bit of credibility that would justify making such a search. I won't hold my breath.

I consider you a hater, AwesomeJr44, because you exhibit hatred, fullstop.
Your outright and provable lies about what other people have posted is one of those exhibits.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

That's an awful lot of word salad to defend someone who comes up with gems like "Y'shtola should be nicer to Magnai because she's a 3 and he's an 8", "G'raha Tia is a demon who terrorises the WoL with his attempts at seduction" and "why can't women have long hair to make their emotional journey more compelling."

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The guy just wants his strangely erotic 90's heroic fantasy, which is full of extremely dated archetypes. Those are absurd takes, but the calls of misogyny and homophobia (?) are taking it too far in my opinion.

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This really is not what's happening here, and it's a little facetious to pretend it is. Let's be honest now.

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I honestly don't see it the way you do. Maybe I'm naive here, but by reading a lot of his posts in the many threads he made I don't see bigotry, just someone who's in love with an incredibly specific and dated idea of fiction.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

What you are seeing is straight out of Orwell's Principles of Newspeak, the appendix to 1984.
By inventing words (or redefining existing words) to have no meaning, the words can mean whatever the speaker want, including having a different meaning later as convenience demands. "Troll," "fascist," "hate," "racist," and even a word as basic as "woman" are all suffering from this treatment these days, among others.

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...........still literally doesn't answer the question.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

True, but that doesn't mean people aren't trying to get him silenced, such as by provoking him in the hope he will respond with something that will get him suspended to banned.

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Thats....silly
The only reason Aveyond would get himself Suspended or Banned is his own doing. Looking at how he words his posts, I have extreme doubt he would ever say anything that would get himself in trouble, much less anybody could get him to. If he is able to skirt around and ignore questions...heck outright block and hide questions (if that what the ignore button really does) nobody is gonna make him do anything.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

uh, you ah, you okay?

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I really don't think they are. I hope they get better once they stop hate reading the forums, because it's really not good for anyone's mental health to be that bitter about online interactions.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Thats....silly
The only reason Aveyond would get himself Suspended or Banned is his own doing. Looking at how he words his posts, I have extreme doubt he would ever say anything that would get himself in trouble, much less anybody could get him to. If he is able to skirt around and ignore questions...heck outright block and hide questions (if that what the ignore button really does) nobody is gonna make him do anything.

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I'll defer to you on this with regard to Aveyond, but other people may not have recognized his cleverness in this regard.

However, I respectfully submit that trying to provoke people into getting themselves banned is a tactic that sometimes works, and some of the posters in this forum seem to have nothing better to do with their time and 20-post daily limit.

I Feel like I got lumped into something I wasn't even apart of.....end of the day Ive come out of this today nothing but confused.
But, it sounds like that was the point. Me trying to understand it and make sense was all part of the game. What it accomplished...guess Ill never know.
GG I guess?....

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

You said it means nothing, but yet continue to use it, and to describe people.
So what does it mean, and what is a Zodiark Trancer?
Id love to understand these labels, or your posts in general.

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The only times I've seen the phrase "Zodiark Trancer" being used here, it's the anti-Hydaelyn faction claiming it's an insulting label "the other side" uses against them. I am yet to see it actually used as an insult.

Fora (alternate plural for "forums", I assume) knights seem to be anyone who disagrees with them.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I Feel like I got lumped into something I wasn't even apart of.....end of the day Ive come out of this today nothing but confused.
But, it sounds like that was the point. Me trying to understand it and make sense was all part of the game. What it accomplished...guess Ill never know.
GG I guess?....

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Do you post on the lore forum? It's all the same torrent of bitterness there, just with different targets, and it seems they've mentally grouped people who disagree with them there and here into one big force against them.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's all the same torrent of bitterness there, just with different targets, and it seems they've mentally grouped people who disagree with them there and here into one big force against them.

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Personally, I aspire (imperfectly of course) to disagree with what people post, as opposed to disagreeing with the people per se.
However, I don't think everyone shares that aspiration.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Stuff

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Don't you think you're being a bit unfair here? The torrent of vitriol definitely goes both ways, and it frequently comes down hard on any unsuspecting individual unfortunate enough to voice a dissenting opinion. Lumping people into factions for their opinions is an extremely stupid practice.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Personally, I aspire (imperfectly of course) to disagree with what people post, as opposed to disagreeing with the people per se.
However, I don't think everyone shares that aspiration.

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You're not alone. I do as much myself and often propose simply agreeing to disagree where common ground cannot be found.

If people are willing to do that? Great. If not, I find myself writing them off by using the ignore function if they're only getting strangely personal and petty with their often bizarre insinuations about people's character and personal views.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Don't you think you're being a bit unfair here? The torrent of vitriol definitely goes both ways, and it frequently comes down hard on any unsuspecting individual unfortunate enough to voice a dissenting opinion. Lumping people into factions for their opinions is an extremely stupid practice.

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Mm. I disagree with the attempts to lump people into 'factions'. It's not even applicable in many cases and neither side is a hive mind despite attempts by some to imply otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Do you post on the lore forum? It's all the same torrent of bitterness there, just with different targets, and it seems they've mentally grouped people who disagree with them there and here into one big force against them.

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What happened? Was it seriously Endwalker's release? I've been only lurking for a year or two, but it seems things changed recently. Before the worst issue here were the constant spam of obvious troll thread, now it seems this place is slowly imploding.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

What happened? Was it seriously Endwalker's release? I've been only lurking for a year or two, but it seems things changed recently. Before the worst issue here were the constant spam of obvious troll thread, now it seems this place is slowly imploding.

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It was already like this before, just mayhaps not to the same degree. All Endwalker did was change the subject from Garleans to the Ancients and Venat.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Don't you think you're being a bit unfair here? The torrent of vitriol definitely goes both ways, and it frequently comes down hard on any unsuspecting individual unfortunate enough to voice a dissenting opinion. Lumping people into factions for their opinions is an extremely stupid practice.

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The torrent goes both ways (and I am incredibly tired of it) but only one side of the torrent is here in this topic calling names and lumping in people who disagree with them here as being part of a team with people who disagree with them in a separate subforum.

I'm indifferent to many of the Scions, at this point they mostly rub me the wrong way for the same reason that I came to tire of the likes of Anduin and Jaina back in World of Warcraft. Familiarity can easily breed contempt and especially when a consistent presence is coming at the expense of other characters who could step up and get involved.

That aside, as a gay guy who is attracted to masculine men I do find it rather troubling when I see people imply that asking for conventionally attractive, masculine men is somehow a bad or silly thing. Especially when many of the people asking for such have stated that they'd enjoy more variety in general for both player characters and NPC's alike. Furthermore they've even provided examples of what they'd like to see in relevant threads such as this one:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6026267

I also think it's a bit disingenuous to lump everyone who has issues with the Scions together as one big hive mind who always agree with one another on everything.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I Feel like I got lumped into something I wasn't even apart of.....end of the day Ive come out of this today nothing but confused.
But, it sounds like that was the point. Me trying to understand it and make sense was all part of the game. What it accomplished...guess Ill never know.
GG I guess?....

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It's how Iscah said it. Which is at least in my mind another way of just calling someone a white knight. I think I might have been partly to blame for Senti's Lyth stuff due to my mentioning of them being burnt out which comes from a thread in the lore section.

Speaking of Magnai she calls him the equivalent of a little boy/child in the other languages. So I'm not sure which comment would be worse. Also holy crap the tags.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The torrent goes both ways (and I am incredibly tired of it) but only one side of the torrent is here in this topic calling names and lumping in people who disagree with them here as being part of a team with people who disagree with them in a separate subforum.

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I don't know if I'd say that. It looks to me like there's been plenty of back and forth. Granted, there are a couple outliers in this thread for certain. At any rate, it's tiresome. If no one is allowed to speak on the forums without getting torn to shreds over their position, why even bother?

Don't like the Scions? Instant ad hominem.
Don't like Venat? Same thing. Criticizing her is the equivalent of shoving your head into a hornet's nest.
Don't like Zodiark? Same thing.
Don't like the Ancients? Yep, that too.
Emet-Selch? Not liking him is like signing a waiver saying you'd like to be the online equivalent of a punching bag.

A small group of posters are really bad about turning everything into a personal attack. The majority just try to work around it as best they can, lest they get dragged in as well. Then to add to this you've got another small group of posters that choose to communicate in bad faith, knowingly making disingenuous statement after disingenuous statement for no reason other than... well, I don't actually know the reason, but I'm sure there is one. The same posters with a tendency to choose disingenuous language also tend to look for problems where none exist. Doesn't help anyone.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm indifferent to many of the Scions, at this point they mostly rub me the wrong way for the same reason that I came to tire of the likes of Anduin and Jaina back in World of Warcraft. Familiarity can easily breed contempt and especially when a consistent presence is coming at the expense of other characters who could step up and get involved.

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I haven't played WoW too much (I only tried it for like 2 weeks) so I don't understand the WoW references, but I agree with the part about the scions. Some of them are annoying, and some of them are just... there. I don't feel like any of them really have a particular goal right now other than Yshtola, and I have several other problems with that character.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

That aside, as a gay guy who is attracted to masculine men I do find it rather troubling when I see people imply that asking for conventionally attractive, masculine men is somehow a bad or silly thing. Especially when many of the people asking for such have stated that they'd enjoy more variety in general for both player characters and NPC's alike.

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I've mainly taken a stance of neutrality on the OP of this thread (and before anyone says otherwise, you can go back and see that I've made that clear multiple times), but I do agree that it's quite troubling that some would like to label such desires for conventionally attractive characters as 'troubling'. Personally, I'm into conventionally attractive women, and no disrespect to anyone who doesn't fall under this category, but if you're not conventionally attractive, I'm probably not going to find you appealing to look at. Now imagine if someone made a thread asking for more overweight characters and I came into the thread complaining that someone was asking for the type of character they liked. I don't think I'd get the same support.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm indifferent to many of the Scions, at this point they mostly rub me the wrong way for the same reason that I came to tire of the likes of Anduin and Jaina back in World of Warcraft. Familiarity can easily breed contempt and especially when a consistent presence is coming at the expense of other characters who could step up and get involved.

That aside, as a gay guy who is attracted to masculine men I do find it rather troubling when I see people imply that asking for conventionally attractive, masculine men is somehow a bad or silly thing. Especially when many of the people asking for such have stated that they'd enjoy more variety in general for both player characters and NPC's alike. Furthermore they've even provided examples of what they'd like to see in relevant threads such as this one:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6026267

I also think it's a bit disingenuous to lump everyone who has issues with the Scions together as one big hive mind who always agree with one another on everything.

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Asking for that is different than wanting or wishing a lot of the cast to be like that in order to like them. Or like them more. That and the way it gets worded by the OP tends to come off as a demand and not an ask. While also making some feel as though anything less then that or a difference in opinion is not acceptable or allowed. Especially when the basis at least this round of the debate if you can call it one starts from disliking a character we just got introduced to. It would be like saying you loathe Teddy Duchamp from Stand by Me from the first few seconds the character is on screen.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Pandaemonium got me back in "excited" mode so I'm just hoping they don't mess it up.

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Pandaemonium was sort of shockingly good and intriguing! I'm probably still not at the point where I'd be exactly "excited" to meet back up with the Scions again - I really did feel "oh god, I need a long break at least" by the end of EW - but one expansion where I felt basically everyone's characterization suffered isn't enough to snuff out the goodwill I have for them as characters over the course of the entire game. It'll be good to see G'raha again when we return to the Twelve raids, and Zero could really go anywhere at this point. She's not an archetype that instantly appeals to me, but that's fine. Characters are more than their aesthetics and archetypes, and she's just getting started.

As much as this game has disappointed me at times, it's also managed to sort of shock me before with how well it's spun story elements around I'd sort of written off as hopeless in terms of making interesting/emotionally compelling--the Ascians pre-ShB, for instance, both as a group and as individuals, and even the Warriors of Darkness and the First itself--so I can't discount the possibility they can do it again, even if EW was a pretty bad blow for me, narratively, in a lot of ways. I'm looking forward to seeing where various threads come together and where they go from here.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

I don't know if I'd say that. It looks to me like there's been plenty of back and forth. Granted, there are a couple outliers in this thread for certain. At any rate, it's tiresome. If no one is allowed to speak on the forums without getting torn to shreds over their position, why even bother?

Don't like the Scions? Instant ad hominem.
Don't like Venat? Same thing.
Don't like Zodiark? Same thing.
Don't like the Ancients? Yep, that too.
Emet-Selch? Not liking him is like signing a waiver saying you'd like to be the online equivalent of a punching bag.

A small group of posters are really bad about turning everything into a personal attack. The majority just try to work around it as best they can, lest they get dragged in as well. Then to add to this you've got another small group of posters that choose to communicate in bad faith, knowingly making disingenuous statement after disingenuous statement for no reason other than... well, I don't actually know the reason, but I'm sure there is one. The same posters with a tendency to choose disingenuous language also tend to look for problems where none exist. Doesn't help anyone.

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The issue is that, on these forums at least, it most definitely goes both ways, and particularly the "other" way. Look at how certain posters jump all over anyone who posts about liking the Scions, or Venat, or the EW story arc, etc.. Heck, we have people complaining that in the midst of the usual half-dozen or so "I hate x" threads, someone creates one single thread saying they enjoy that thing and find it a positive. And almost immediately a certain crew goes into any thread like that and either directly or passive-aggressively tries to shoot it down or derail it. We have a group that's not only dedicated to spending their forum life hating on the game, but also trying to drag down anyone who dares to enjoy it. That's just sad.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

What happened? Was it seriously Endwalker's release? I've been only lurking for a year or two, but it seems things changed recently. Before the worst issue here were the constant spam of obvious troll thread, now it seems this place is slowly imploding.

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It's like Abismiiliard said it was like this before just toned down and allowed to die or have a breather from. Compared to now where as I've said various times you just hint at the sundering or about how you feel about those who disagree with you on the subject and you can bet the golden scree mount that any and all discussion about any other topic will then slide into round 576 of holy heck Venat is such a B n C (thankfully no one's called her a C word yet.) for sundering the world and anyone who isn't as bothered by it as I am should feel bad and whatnot. Yes I'm exaggerating somewhat. While name calling the other side by some on both sides.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

The issue is that, on these forums at least, it most definitely goes both ways, and particularly the "other" way. Look at how certain posters jump all over anyone who posts about liking the Scions, or Venat, or the EW story arc, etc.. Heck, we have people complaining that in the midst of the usual half-dozen or so "I hate x" threads, someone creates one single thread saying they enjoy that thing and find it a positive. And almost immediately a certain crew goes into any thread like that and either directly or passive-aggressively tries to shoot it down or derail it. We have a group that's not only dedicated to spending their forum life hating on the game, but also trying to drag down anyone who dares to enjoy it. That's just sad.

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That shoe quickly goes on the other foot if someone mentions liking the Ancients, Garleans, etc. Ditto for speaking positively about certain primals. What I can't figure out is why speaking positively about Ramuh is considered some grave offense. Wasn't he like... the fairest, most kind out of all of the original primals? Dude had granddad energy, but God forbid you say something nice about him on the forums.

So yeah, that's the rub. Saying things go the "other" way when they are in fact pretty much equal on all fronts is only inviting more trouble.

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Originally Posted by Brinne

Pandaemonium was sort of shockingly good and intriguing! I'm probably still not at the point where I'd be exactly "excited" to meet back up with the Scions again - I really did feel "oh god, I need a long break at least" by the end of EW - but one expansion where I felt basically everyone's characterization suffered isn't enough to snuff out the goodwill I have for them as characters over the course of the entire game. It'll be good to see G'raha again when we return to the Twelve raids, and Zero could really go anywhere at this point. She's not an archetype that instantly appeals to me, but that's fine. Characters are more than their aesthetics and archetypes, and she's just getting started.

As much as this game has disappointed me at times, it's also managed to sort of shock me before with how well it's spun story elements around I'd sort of written off as hopeless in terms of making interesting/emotionally compelling--the Ascians pre-ShB, for instance, both as a group and as individuals, and even the Warriors of Darkness and the First itself--so I can't discount the possibility they can do it again, even if EW was a pretty bad blow for me, narratively, in a lot of ways. I'm looking forward to seeing where various threads come together and where they go from here.

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Ha! I should clarify that I'm less excited about meeting up with the Scions than I am about just getting back in there and seeing the resolution to the story of Themis and co. They did make me group up with the one Scion I really can't stand, after all, so I'm in no hurry. Sorry, not sorry, Y'shtola.

The new MSQ so far hasn't really grabbed me and Zero isn't the type of character that I'd normally find intriguing, but I'm game to see if her character will become something interesting. She really has just appeared and who knows what they'll do with her going forward.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Ha! I should clarify that I'm less excited about meeting up with the Scions than I am about just getting back in there and seeing the resolution to the story of Themis and co. They did make me group up with the one Scion I really can't stand, after all, so I'm in no hurry. Sorry, not sorry, Y'shtola.

The new MSQ so far hasn't really grabbed me and Zero isn't the type of character that I'd normally find intriguing, but I'm game to see if her character will become something interesting. She really has just appeared and who knows what they'll do with her going forward.

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As far as the Scions go, Y'shtola is indeed the worst and continues to be the worst. The best, at least in EW? Urianger and G'raha got some really good individual scenes, at least, and I think Estinien was mostly fun, if mostly a really, really transparent late fanservice addition. In terms of how much I liked them overall versus how they were used in EW, the twins probably wound up the most unfortunate, sadly.

On the subject of the Scions, does anyone else crave another situation like Heavensward where we just get dropped into the next expansion by ourselves and have to find our own bearings? I really miss that sense of uncertainty and adventure, and when they were pushing the "you're just an adventurer again" idea I rather hoped that's where they might be going. I enjoyed the presence of the Scions in Shadowbringers, but with Endwalker on top of that plus these latest patches after it was teased we'd be saying goodbye to them (did I imagine that?) I've got heavy character fatigue, as with the majority of our quests feeling like a school trip or that I'm packing an entourage with me wherever I go. I'm more than a little fed up of coming up against a new place or character or what have you and rather being able to acquaint myself with it, I have a Scion loudly shouting down my ear who or what they think it might be.

I could certainly do without the Scions for a while. Whether you love them or hate them, oversaturation is a thing. We've been dealing extensively with them for quite some time now. Why not roll out some solo adventures for the Warrior of Light? Perhaps they could explore what it means to be Azem and begin wandering the world alone, helping whenever warranted. We already know the game is set up such that the WoL will generally do whatever is asked of them. This could add some proper meaning to their seemingly overly obliging nature.

No world-ending threats, no higher callings, and definitely no Eorzean Alliance constantly hounding the WoL to come help because they got a little bloody nose from the latest primal mess they undoubtedly brought on themselves. Just one stronk individual wandering, helping, and generally exploring the world at large. Maybe even start throwing in some choices that actually matter along the way.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

On the subject of the Scions, does anyone else crave another situation like Heavensward where we just get dropped into the next expansion by ourselves and have to find our own bearings? I really miss that sense of uncertainty and adventure, and when they were pushing the "you're just an adventurer again" idea I rather hoped that's where they might be going. I enjoyed the presence of the Scions in Shadowbringers, but with Endwalker on top of that plus these latest patches after it was teased we'd be saying goodbye to them (did I imagine that?) I've got heavy character fatigue, as with the majority of our quests feeling like a school trip or that I'm packing an entourage with me wherever I go. I'm more than a little fed up of coming up against a new place or character or what have you and rather being able to acquaint myself with it, I have a Scion loudly shouting down my ear who or what they think it might be.

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I loved the uncertainty of Heavensward, and slowly getting to know the Fortemps, and them becoming like family to the WoL. They've never quite hit the same feeling since then for me, although I love a lot of the story afterwards. fighting for Ishgard in the competition was such a great moment for me, I really felt like I had a home that wasn't just "go here weapon of light and kill".

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

On the subject of the Scions, does anyone else crave another situation like Heavensward where we just get dropped into the next expansion by ourselves and have to find our own bearings? I really miss that sense of uncertainty and adventure, and when they were pushing the "you're just an adventurer again" idea I rather hoped that's where they might be going. I enjoyed the presence of the Scions in Shadowbringers, but with Endwalker on top of that plus these latest patches after it was teased we'd be saying goodbye to them (did I imagine that?) I've got heavy character fatigue, as with the majority of our quests feeling like a school trip or that I'm packing an entourage with me wherever I go. I'm more than a little fed up of coming up against a new place or character or what have you and rather being able to acquaint myself with it, I have a Scion loudly shouting down my ear who or what they think it might be.

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Yeah, I feel you on that. Honestly, I generally enjoyed the 6.2 MSQ (Y'shtola aside), but one of the letdowns was definitely that, while I don't mind Zero - I don't have a strong opinion of her yet, beyond "we'll see where they go with her" and "I'm happy for the people who like her archetype" - I was super looking forward to Vrtra/Varshahn as a major "new face" in the party and then it felt like he barely got any focus, even though he was our entire reason for being there. You could just wholesale delete Y'shtola from the 6.2 MSQ and I think it'd only improve it, honestly...