Summoner feels really, really dumbed down now

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

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As usual, almost nobody is arguing the thematic value of the rework until someone else (usually you) makes some stupid statement about it "being a true final fantasy summoner now" as if that isn't one of the most nebulous statements you could make. Most everyone I've heard opinion from isn't unhappy with the theme they're unhappy with the gameplay, because it's below standard even compared to other simple jobs, and jobs just released. Even Blue Mage shows more thought put into having a nuanced DPS rotation. Stop conflating gameplay and thematics to push whatever weird narrative against old SMN mains you seem to have.

Those of us with a long history with the franchise don't think about dot management when they think about Summoner, mixing that up and letting that take precedence over summon magic for the last 8 years was a mistake that caused more trouble than it was worth in the end as evidenced by the fact the rework happened, and if you want more abilities all you have to do is be respectful and be patient. Chances are, if you do that then no one will take any issue with it.

If you are unable to do that then there are various other ways to pass the time in-game as opposed to continuing to going in circles with this topic. The choice is yours to make and I sincerely hope you are able to find something fun to do in the meantime because it's a long way from here to late March/early April for 6.1. If you want to continue down the route of nonstop complaining then it is only natural there will be those who will oppose you and resist every step of the way.

Summoning has been all over the map with different complements and capacities, but you don't care. You don't even care that people aren't talking about ARR or HW SMN outside of niche examples of gameplay they enjoyed. Acknowledging that would annihilate 50% of your arguments and maybe force you to face any of the myriad of clearly outlined issues the SMN job has after its rework. I'm not going to afford you any more respect as you will not afford anyone else the respect of meeting their arguments or concerns on the same level. Instead you lord above them with a fabricated moral high ground, a feeble understanding of the game, and a cherry-picked history of the franchise.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

The one equalizer on these forums is that by design, it is impossible to reply to a thread without bumping it. So love or hate summoner, know that any thread you bump, any argument you drag out will serve only to make its parent more visible. For those trolling and arguing in bad faith, consider that for all your efforts, you might inadvertently be aiding the opposing party with your participation.

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And that's why consolidating commentary into one thread instead of splitting the same feedback into fifty threads is more effective. Having the same people respond to ten threads doesn't make it ten times the feedback nor does it make the feedback ten times as valuable.

Nor does complaining about them not responding directly within threads, that sort of dialog is usually reserved for things like Live Letters, where everyone can be communicated with and design intent can be made in a clearer way.

But let's be honest, is there any complaint in, say, this thread that isn't already addressed with 'The job was reworked so we could have a template to work with and add to in the future, because the old design was too bloated and it had reached a point where we could not work with it any more'? If there is, great. But if it's all 'The job feels like a template and like there's parts that need to be added later' well... duh.

And... ultimately, potency changes will silence a lot of the vitriol around the job. It always happens--buff potencies and then most complaints just... disappear.

I'm not saying there isn't flaws with the job either--I feel it needs an extra use of Energy Drain every minute so that it doesn't feel like Aetherflow's only use is to dump Festers under Trances, and to make the Aethergem phase have a bit more to do given it's primarily instant-cast-based rotation, and it needs Ruby Rite to have a bit more oomph to justify the cost it puts on movement (Garuda doesn't need this because Slipstream slaps)--but just repeating 'I'm booooorrrrrrrred' in a bazillion threads is non-feedback and not actionable outside of 'Well we need to do something.' and it's that kind of feedback that leads to 'well, this isn't what we asked for' stuff.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Those of us with a long history with the franchise don't think about dot management when they think about Summoner.

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Again this facade you're trying to show. We with a long story with the franchise have never seen a Summoner using books. All of them are different games with different thematics. You saying that only shows you're a fake Final Fantasy fan. Girl, go do some studying.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Summoning has been all over the map with different complements and capacities, but you don't care. You don't even care that people aren't talking about ARR or HW SMN outside of niche examples of gameplay they enjoyed. Acknowledging that would annihilate 50% of your arguments and maybe force you to face any of the myriad of clearly outlined issues the SMN job has after its rework. I'm not going to afford you any more respect as you will not afford anyone else the respect of meeting their arguments or concerns on the same level. Instead you lord above them with a fabricated moral high ground, a feeble understanding of the game, and a cherry-picked history of the franchise.

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Originally Posted by Caduagm

Again this facade you're trying to show. We with a long story with the franchise have never seen a Summoner using books. All of them are different games with different thematics. You saying that only shows you're a fake Final Fantasy fan. Girl, go do some studying.

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Keep in mind you're speaking to someone that has played basically every version of Summoner in the franchise, with the iteration we got in Shadowbringers being my first 80 at the time. After giving that as fair a shot as I could have, I then abandoned it and made my peace with the fact that the job would never live up to my other experiences outside FFXIV.

It's not a high ground or a "facade," it just is what it is. I could talk endlessly about how and why I liked the other versions outside FFXIV prior to 6.0 but that doesn't seem like it'll get through. You are not going to convince me that the state of affairs prior to 6.0 was worthy of being called a Summoner let alone worth my time to play as on a purely mechanical level. I like things that are what they should be and don't strain my hands in the process. There's no need to remain upset over this anymore, what is done is done.

Again, the choice as to how to go about things remains in your hands. I do not consider either of you bad guys, but I do believe that there are better ways to handle things than this. For what it's worth I forgive you for your present tone, given that it appears directed to me specifically for clicks and likes as opposed to feedback you'd like to see passed on to the devs. Hopefully in the future you can adopt a more positive outlook on the class and enjoy it for what it is and the direction its going in.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Keep in mind you're speaking to someone that has played basically every version of Summoner in the franchise, with the iteration we got in Shadowbringers being my first 80 at the time.

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With the awful and samey arguments you're bring to every SMN thread, I don't believe you at all.

I don't care about clicks or likes I just don't want to see the same already-dismantled garbage regurgitated every time someone expresses even the slightest dissatisfaction with the SMN rework.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It's not a high ground or a "facade," it just is what it is. I could talk endlessly about how and why I liked the other versions outside FFXIV prior to 6.0 but that doesn't seem like it'll get through. You are not going to convince me that the state of affairs prior to 6.0 was worthy of being called a Summoner let alone worth my time to play as on a purely mechanical level. I like things that are what they should be and don't strain my hands in the process. There's no need to remain upset over this anymore, what is done is done.

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I invite you to play once again all the games including a SMN.
Please do not forget that the "poster characters" for SMN are Rydia, Eiko, Garnet and Yuna. 3 of them being white mages.

The more you try to defend the current iteration, the more you show ShB SMN was closer to FF Summoners than EW SMN. The more you dig into its imperfections.
Also "There's no need to remain upset over this anymore, what is done is done." if SMN is ever updated in a way that displease you in 7.0, I believe I can count on everyone here to answer you this exact same line.

Remind yourself that XIV is a game that keeps being updated, Feedback can be communicated. PLD, MCH and DNC will receive numerical buffs and DRK might see some changes in 6.1.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I invite you to play once again all the games including a SMN.
Please do not forget that the "poster characters" for SMN are Rydia, Eiko, Garnet and Yuna. 3 of them being white mages.

The more you try to defend the current iteration, the more you show ShB SMN was closer to FF Summoners than EW SMN. The more you dig into its imperfections.
Also "There's no need to remain upset over this anymore, what is done is done." if SMN is ever updated in a way that displease you in 7.0, I believe I can count on everyone here to answer you this exact same line.

Remind yourself that XIV is a game that keeps being updated, Feedback can be communicated. PLD, MCH and DNC will receive numerical buffs and DRK might see some changes in 6.1.

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I mean you can choose to believe that if you wish but again someone whose done it all like I have isn't thinking of poison magic and only being able to summon a full sized summon once every several minutes with so much irrelevant "buildup" in between. Most games you just press a button and it appears, like how things work in EW. The associated subjob with most Summoners is never something that revolves around watching dots tick, poison-themed or otherwise.

A bit sad that we still have egis for so many levels, but since I've been spending most of my time doing 90 content I'm not super affected by it and for future levelling next expansion I get to use my full summons the whole time during the msq and 90-100 dungeon runs. Also given the fact that I've spent the majority of my time on other jobs since the day FFXIV launched due to old Summoner's failings it isn't the end of the world for me if job changes don't adhere 100% to my desires.

Paladin invoking memories of Holy Knight from Tactics, Red and Black Mage both having always been generally fun and well-designed. I go with the flow. Come what may, there really is no losing here for me since my enjoyment isn't contingent on the state of any one particular job. Usually if things go wrong somewhere there's something going well somewhere else and I go try that instead. As others have mentioned feel free to leave as much feedback as you wish but if the old playstyle and level of "complexity!" is what you decide to continue clinging to it may be best to save those ideas for a future job addition seeing as whoever did the rework doesn't seem to be of a similar mind when it comes to that.

They clearly said enough was enough, time to add in a pure Summoner using whatever resources we have available, let's start off with a clean base so we can add and change things over time and cut the stuff people aren't liking. If that's their thinking, especially after having received overwhelmingly positive feedback from people that boils down to "we love this and please give us more!" then I fail to see how convincing the other side's arguments are given that they can be summed up with "I was special for playing this class, I can't accept you changed things. I feel the other side ruined my class."

Summoner in those other games can use their pick of summons. We are currently about 30 primals in with FFXIV. And we only summon the 3 Egis and 2 Demis. The framework would be fine for level 50/60, but building with only 5 Legos is ultimately going to feel unrewarding. There's a line that one NPC's says on summoning that "if the being was on the size of [SPOILER], you might feel a little tug". Ok, that's a great bit of lore. I'd like a sanity/tempering meter, let me summon the Endwalker trials!

Also: mechanically speaking Searing Light gets really awkward when it desynchs with the Demi's. Can't use it during the demi so we have to either delay, loosing DPS, or just press on with the Demi anyway.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

And that's why consolidating commentary into one thread instead of splitting the same feedback into fifty threads is more effective. Having the same people respond to ten threads doesn't make it ten times the feedback nor does it make the feedback ten times as valuable.

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As much as that would be neat to see, I think there's too much of a difference in etiquette and culture for that to be realistic here. It has merits, but I'm also not fully convinced it's a better model either. The serial nature of megathreads can make it difficult to focus on issues with more specificity and nuance.

Whatever the case, I'm sure the content management team is passably acquainted with the habits of each region's forums. A JP megathread getting 4 new pages of posts every hour probably sounds the same alarm bells as 4 new threads on the same topic being created here.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I fail to see how convincing the other side's arguments are given that they can be summed up with "I was special for playing this class, I can't accept you changed things. I feel the other side ruined my class."

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So in addition to never once having argued in good faith despite demanding others to do so, you're also a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

But if we see reversions back to mechs lifted from old SMN and the re-adding of Bio and Miasma? That's where I draw the line, and switch straight back over to Black and Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

So in addition to never once having argued in good faith despite demanding others to do so, you're also a hypocrite.

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Every single Summoner thread has aveyond-dreams in it and someone arguing with them.

It's honestly impressive.

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

Every single Summoner thread has aveyond-dreams in it and someone arguing with them.

It's honestly impressive.

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Can confirm, am doing this in a different summoner thread. It's basically self-flagellation at this point.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

So in addition to never once having argued in good faith despite demanding others to do so, you're also a hypocrite.

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Historically the times when forum threads have lead to some kind of impact in game have been when there is a clear, focused thread where people congregate in and discuss things. There usually has to be sufficient driving force behind those threads unless the issue is so widespread and relevant that it's impossible to ignore (CLL bottleneck and Eureka come to mind). Of course there also has to be a strong enough base behind whatever the cause is.

See the male Viera situation. Widespread outrage, singular support thread headed by someone who was pretty level-headed about most things, had clear goals. The result was a new fan favourite race built directly off the ideas in that thread. Last time I checked it the first post had a whopping 1900k + likes. Needless to say there is no similar strength of numbers bolstering the cause of "bring back complex summoner!" There's also a lot of people who want to see new abilities and summons added, myself included, who are otherwise happy with the rework.

It's a stark difference between how the two camps of people proceeded to behave. Objective truths about the job's history in the franchise and why/how it was failing in FFXIV was met with hostility, and only served to paint those opposed to the rework in negative light by their own actions alone. There is a lot of frustration over on the poison mage/complex! side given the fact that the game has very obviously leaned in favour of streamlining and making things more accessible as opposed to encouraging the kind of 10 spinning plates style of gameplay that was abandoned at the end of Heavensward. Come Shadowbringers, it was absolutely regarded as one of the most unfriendly classes in the game as it was the sole remaining fragment of that era.

The majority of people then soundly rejected the final version of old SMN whether through feedback channels or by the simple metric of just not playing the job. I know after getting it to 80 and messing around with it for a while I decided there were better ways to enjoy the game than on a job that felt bad to play with mechanics that compromised its theme to the degree it did.

At some point in Endwalker development someone who at least appears to have a similar history and love for FF Summoners as people like me decided to step in and change things for the better, ultimately deciding that Summoner should be a Summoner instead of a mishmash class with a bad reputation. For the time being at least I trust them to not do a 180 on their design. Re-reworking or reverting the most popular caster on 2/3 regions because a handful of people can't accept the latest job changes is probably not on the table.

Summoner - caller of Gods with traditionally either Black Mage or White Mage as its commonest subjobs

Warlock - a demon summoner who casts poisons and fire magic

It was clear to me from the start that merging these two camps would never have produced a decent result and 8 years later seems I was right. If I could wait 8 years for my favorite class to finally live up to its name in game then I think the complex poison mage fans can wait 2 if not less years for Necromancer or Time Mage to make an appearance.

Yeah, it's kinda free internet points to argue with arguments like "Youtubes likes".

I plead guilty and I'm not ashamed of it.
But trying to remain polite nonetheless.

Ironically, it basically shows how little people are actually in favor of the rework.
We should be thankful to aveyond for keeping the threads alive.

Frankly I can barely even tell what this thread is about anymore.

Summoner thematics? Gameplay? Egis? Rydia?

Can’t it be ‘good’ in the thematic department but ‘bad’ in the gameplay? Like the polar opposite of Bards lol.

I mean if we’re really going to talk about how ffxiv jobs should be reflections of their traditional counterparts I’m gonna have to ask…what in the world happened to Bard?! How do you get from ‘harp playing poet’ to ‘laser beam archer’ lol. Did they play the wrong series of games or something lol

Personally I do think the current Summoner has a more ‘FF summoner’ theme than previously. I think it had an ff summoner theme before too, just that the theme was more tinted by the ffxiv lens. I also do think it definitely needs more ‘time in the oven’, because it’s far from golden brown at the moment lol. But it looks like when it’s done baking, it’ll be pretty good, I think (hope).

Maybe returning the old Summoner play style on a more thematically appropriate class would be the best way to please both parties?

Though that still isn’t very fair for people who preferred Old Summoner, but it’d also be a net gain in the long-term, because a more thematically appropriate class would mean they could focus purely on the more tactical DoT application play style without having to tack on Summons or summoner-like-things? Plus, it’s not like they have to do one or other. They could make a new class for the old playstyle and improve the complexity and capabilities of the current (New) Summoner.

Idk basically I’d like them to continue the direction they’re going with the new Summoner. I’d like if they also found a way to accomodate players who preferred the old Summoner. Can’t we have both?

Bard is definitely another...situation for lack of a better term. I don't know what that job is trying to be, but whatever it is isn't delivering well on being either an Archer or a Bard.

The best solution when it comes to Summoner however is really just letting them continue to add things to the rework in meaningful ways which most do support. I just can't support re-adding old ideas that drove me away from the job in previous expansions onto something that shows a great deal of promise so far. I won't stand in the way of adding more summons or aetherflow charges if they do in 6.1, I'm all for it.

The time to make one's peace with the rework was months ago, but it appears some are still in the process of that. Divorce, peaceful or otherwise, was the only permanent solution to the ongoing gameplay and thematic crisis that plagued the job for the last 8 years.

As for where fans of old SMN go from here, the choice is in their hands. The last full job that was added in the middle of an expansion was Ninja in ARR, and doubtless they wouldn't be satisfied with a limited job. Your idea is the correct one, that the ideal resolution for them would be a brand new job of their own that exists separate from Summoner. The most effective way forward for them is to combine their ideas into a support thread of their own for future job additions and in 7.0 they may receive Necromancer, Time Mage, even Green Mage if they so wish. Presenting their thoughts in an organized and mature way would do much for their cause as opposed to their present behavior.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

BS

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Everything you wrote in this post rings especially hollow in light of you declaring you would not accept the return of a single DOT to the job and would return to Black Mage, a job with a DOT you regularly need to reapply.

Nobody has to accept anything they don't like, and they certainly don't need approval from the likes of you to express their displeasure at something.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

Everything you wrote in this post rings especially hollow in light of you declaring you would not accept the return of a single DOT to the job and would return to Black Mage, a job with a DOT you regularly need to reapply.

Nobody has to accept anything they don't like, and they certainly don't need approval from the likes of you to express their displeasure at something.

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Casting Thunder on Black Mage isn't something that takes away from the job or comprises its identity. It's definitely not the main thing going on in the job and it has consistently had good flow to it since day 1 of ARR. Thunder has been a spell since the first Final Fantasy game. It is far more relevant to have Fire/Ice/Thunder magic on Black Mage than it is to have poison mage style gameplay on Summoner.

Summoner doesn't need busywork from dots especially if they have 0 to do with the summons that have largely been absent for the past 8 years. An ogcd like Sonic Break from GNB where Ramuh/Leviathan shows up and does an attack with a dot that doesn't take away my attention from the other stuff I'm doing would be a welcome addition, as opposed to irrelevant spells like Bio or Miasma. We need more *Summoner* stuff added not the old Warlock abilities they already threw out.

The confusion of its identity brought on by the poison mage aspect is intrinsically linked to its previous gameplay and theme issues. Since dots didn't make for particularly engaging gameplay they ended up throwing in systems stacked on top of each other to add in more and more busywork. That road led to nowhere.

If you want to bring that back onto Summoner, I think you're barking up the wrong tree. If you want to see it surface in a new job, continuing to argue with me is doing nothing to further your cause and only casts more negative light on a side that isn't viewed highly outside of its own bubble to begin with. The logical solutions have been presented to you and you can either accept them or continue to face resistance from the opposing viewpoint.

You argue in such bad faith with every post it's actually kind of hard to believe. You don't say a single defensible thing in that whole post and it would be frankly exhausting to list the issues.

What I have told you is the reality and history of the job. If you want Warlock, then by all means create the support thread for it instead of trying to drag Summoner back in a direction that whoever is in charge doesn't find viable anymore. While unproductive for the side of poison mage fans, I continue to look on in wonder at their reactions whenever the truth is laid bare before them.

More summons and abilities will come at whatever pace is manageable. The thematic crisis has been resolved and is unlikely to ever be compromised again moving forward. Heavensward style gameplay is not on the table, unless they have plans to release a Classic ARR or Heavensward server in the future. You are well within your rights to continue acting in your present way right up until the day of 6.1 release if you wish. I do not think it is a healthy or effective method to get what you want though.

The picture you yourselves paint of poison mage/"complexity!" lovers is not the one you think it is. Given the choice, I cannot say with any certainty that an onlooker would be swayed by their current approach.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

What I have told you is the reality and history of the job. If you want Warlock, then by all means create the support thread for it instead of trying to drag Summoner back in a direction that whoever is in charge doesn't find viable anymore. While unproductive for the side of poison mage fans, I continue to look on in wonder at their reactions whenever the truth is laid bare before them.

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https://i.gyazo.com/6bd6962c5872d64e...d1be2cea69.png

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

What I have told you is the reality and history of the job. If you want Warlock, then by all means create the support thread for it instead of trying to drag Summoner back in a direction that whoever is in charge doesn't find viable anymore. While unproductive for the side of poison mage fans, I continue to look on in wonder at their reactions whenever the truth is laid bare before them.

More summons and abilities will come at whatever pace is manageable. The thematic crisis has been resolved and is unlikely to ever be compromised again moving forward. Heavensward style gameplay is not on the table, unless they have plans to release a Classic ARR or Heavensward server in the future. You are well within your rights to continue acting in your present way right up until the day of 6.1 release if you wish. I do not think it is a healthy or effective method to get what you want though.

The picture you yourselves paint of poison mage/"complexity!" lovers is not the one you think it is. Given the choice, I cannot say with any certainty that an onlooker would be swayed by their current approach.

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Your main job still shows Black Mage, might want to see to that.

And your main job is Blacksmith? People often display their alts on here instead of their mains for obvious reasons. Given the way in which some of these individuals act, the last thing I'm willing to part with is my privacy in-game. How a group that claims to be victims due to the rework then proceeds decides to act in such a hostile way is beyond me. Was gaining sympathy not the objective?

You keep bringing up the whole "poison" and DoT thing, but from my understanding, folks are just wanting more - or simply different - than we got. This doesn't mean to go strictly back to what it formerly was. SMN as is currently is, is so simple and boring compared to what it used to be - and seeing the 3 summons being summoned over...and over...and over again makes my brain hurt and is way too repetitive.

You say 'I dont think it's a healthy or effective method to get what you want though' - are you sure? Like, I don't even understand why that was said. What is unhealthy about asking or simply just venting frustrations over the new SMN and for good reason? I mean, there has to be a reason there's multiple threads over the subject.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And your main job is Blacksmith? People often display their alts on here instead of their mains for obvious reasons. Given the way in which some of these individuals act, the last thing I'm willing to part with is my privacy in-game. How a group that claims to be victims due to the rework then proceeds decides to act in such a hostile way is beyond me. Was gaining sympathy not the objective?

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Yea, I main a blacksmith because SMN is dead to me, and I don't have another main job now. Point is though if you are to post on each and every SMN post that is made you should make the effort to walk the walk, even if it is your alt. It's not hard to unlock SMN and change your forums main. In fact it should be a treat since you love it's game play.

Not to burst your bubble but people aren't going to follow you in game to harass you because of a forum post. I've been doing this for 11 years now and haven't meet one person who wanted to talk in game about something I posted on this site. You're not a victim you're not oppressed because you have an opposing view. It's called debating, not hostile attacks.

Second, if the job is so stellar you should have to defend it at all because it should be able to stand on its own merit rather than the merit people try to assign it.

Lastly, people are annoyed that you don't bring anything relevant to the discussion. We are trying to have a debate, sometimes heated, about this current build of Summoner you kept bringing up Poison Mage like it's 2013. You tell everyone to get over it but your are still stuck on it. Fine, you don't like Miasma or Bio. Believe me, we all know. The thread is about the job feeling dumb down and removing two spells isn't the heart of the problem. And for the love of all if you so much as mention Poison Mage to your reply I will just /blist you here and now.

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

You keep bringing up the whole "poison" and DoT thing, but from my understanding, folks are just wanting more - or simply different - than we got. This doesn't mean to go strictly back to what it formerly was. SMN as is currently is, is so simple and boring compared to what it used to be - and seeing the 3 summons being summoned over...and over...and over again makes my brain hurt and is way too repetitive. All we're asking for, is something a bit more (or different) than what we got.

You say 'I dont think it's a healthy or effective method to get what you want though' - are you sure? Like, I don't even understand why that was said. What is unhealthy about asking or simply just venting frustrations over the new SMN and for good reason? I mean, there has to be a reason there's multiple threads over the subject.

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I will be the first person to agree loud and clear that we need more than the same trio of Ifrit/Garuda/Titan-there should absolutely be more variety in our roster. Given how in FFXI I can get most of my summons by level 20, it sucks that we are somehow still so far behind in FFXIV. That being said, chain summoning things practically back to back is the main draw of the job. That's how Summoners work when its not the case of having pets stay out for longer periods of time like FFX/FFXI.

Let me now say that I do not subscribe to the doom and gloom mentality some are having of "the rework has ruined the job forever and no one is listening to us and it will never be fixed" which seems to only exist on the forums. The only reason we're seeing multiple threads here is because this is the sole bastion where such opinions are protected behind a set of rules. It's definitely not the case beyond this sanctuary, and I will not speak as to how those discussions turned out. Could there be more? Of course. Is the current attitude and behavior some are displaying going to make them work any faster? No, seeing as how ability changes will not come until 6.1 at the earliest.

The job has changed. Summoner in fact has changed quite a lot every single expansion, with the experience I had with the class in Shadowbringers being so bad I dropped it like a hot potato and ran away to Red Mage and Black Mage. I was definitely upset for a bit, but I got over it. There are some around here who seem stuck in a rage and are unable to express themselves appropriately, or who want past mechanics that the rework's goal was expressly to get rid of. The result was a job that displaced Red Mage as the most popular caster everywhere except JP, which is also not a particularly complex class. If Red Mage level gameplay is a happy medium, I can see them aiming for that in the future.

I've watched this fire burning for quite a while, and so long as they choose to be as negative as they are then I choose to present a direct counter. Summoner is great. I'm excited to see what they add to it. It's a love letter to what it is traditionally as opposed to how out of place it used to be. As a longtime FF vet I simply cannot be deceived by arguments like "Rydia had Bio so they should add it back in" when as a Summoner the last thing that should be on my mind is juggling poison magic that doesn't mesh with the rest of the kit at all. This isn't even beginning touch on the other systems Summoner was plagued with-it was all just so wrong. They've painted themselves into a corner here, though they could free themselves from their problems really easily by just trying out new stuff like I did.

The refusal to acknowledge the job's history in the franchise, the aggressiveness, the near-constant put downs because Summoner is clearly no longer "elite" enough for them when no class should be exclusive to elites in the first place, just makes for a crowd I really have no interest in dealing with in game. The only remaining legacy of poison mage Summoner is a very negative attitude some actively choose to cling to instead of acting maturely. They will not be the sole voice in this conversation.

I am not going to say anything about new SMN. But I don't expect anything new for SMN within 4-5 years (other than potency updates)..
SE will add or upgrade 1-2 existing skills in next expansion and its all about it.
If you like current state of SMN great! it will stay like this very long time.. I think SE wont sink anymore time and money for this job after rework, it is what happened after MCH and DRK rework.

It is just my personal observation :3

I've started leveling SMN from 80 to 90 now and I have to say I agree with most people's assessment. It is dumbed down. Correct me if I made any mistakes but from what I can tell we lost a lot of stuff.

Aetherflow went from 4 per minute to 2 per minute.
Ruin proc from 4 per minute to 1 per minute.
Egi Assault and Egi Assault 2 were cast for a total of 8 times per minute. They were replaced by 3 summons per minute.
Enkindle Bahamut and Enkindle Phoenix were both changed from 2 uses per minute to 1 per minute.
Lost the 2-button combo during Phoenix trance, now it's just 1 button (same as Ruin spam).
Earthen Armor was 120% of your HP per minute, Radiant Aegis is 30% per minute. Not great for soloing.
Gemshine is a filler spell just like Ruin so it doesn't feel like a new ability. It's a recolor.

And that's without even mentioning DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I've started leveling SMN from 80 to 90 now and I have to say I agree with most people's assessment. It is dumbed down. Correct me if I made any mistakes but from what I can tell we lost a lot of stuff.

Aetherflow went from 4 per minute to 2 per minute.
Ruin proc from 4 per minute to 1 per minute.
Egi Assault and Egi Assault were cast for a total of 8 times per minute. They were replaced by 3 summons per minute.
Enkindle Bahamut and Enkindle Phoenix were both changed from 2 uses per minute to 1 per minute.
Lost the 2-button combo during Phoenix trance, now it's just 1 button (same as Ruin spam).
Earthen Armor was 120% of your HP per minute, Radiant Aegis is 30% per minute. Not great for soloing.
Gemshine is a filler spell just like Ruin so it doesn't feel like a new ability. It's a recolor.

And that's without even mentioning DoTs.

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Pretty accurate, though the fewer demi enkindles doesn't have a large impact on decision making (and especially wouldn't with Bahamut being all instants). A nice point about the new shield is you don't lose dps when using it. This was a good opportunity to rework Aetherflow (maybe revisiting the good points of Aethertrail) instead of making it more vestigial than before. Being fair, Astral Flow for the primals can be compared to Egi Enkindle and in that sense has gone way up in frequency. Not that it's enough to cover the glaring holes in SMN's design.

I was willing to leave SE the benefit of the doubt in Media Tour times, but having levelled up the job (which is my first job in FFXIV and has been my main since 2016), I must say I agree with this topic.

While Summoner had multiple identity crisis with each expansion piling on new stuff with little to no coherence (Demi-Trance upon Demi summon upon Trance upon whatever was ARR SMN), for me it had its list of micro-managements which made the job and I was fine with that.
The 6.0 SMN is nothing of that, it is a rigid cycle of pushing a sequence of 3 to 5 buttons and that's about it. I won't talk about optimization itself as I am not maining the job currently, but the identity and the flow of the job is just too boring for me.
So yes, we gained class flavour and it feels more like a Summoner, but what we traded off for that doesn't compare to what we are left with and that's a shame in my opinion.
I'm not bringing anything more to the topic after 36 pages I guess, but here's my two cents and hoping for a fix somehow (but I don't expect that before 7.0 now).

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Originally Posted by Coletergeist

You keep bringing up the whole "poison" and DoT thing, but from my understanding, folks are just wanting more - or simply different - than we got. This doesn't mean to go strictly back to what it formerly was. SMN as is currently is, is so simple and boring compared to what it used to be - and seeing the 3 summons being summoned over...and over...and over again makes my brain hurt and is way too repetitive.

You say 'I dont think it's a healthy or effective method to get what you want though' - are you sure? Like, I don't even understand why that was said. What is unhealthy about asking or simply just venting frustrations over the new SMN and for good reason? I mean, there has to be a reason there's multiple threads over the subject.

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I'm sure in their minds calling out the blatantly bad faith gate-keeping about what is and isn't the "real FF summoner" sounds like a vehement demand for more dot based gameplay, when really it's just the argument itself that's so ridiculous even people who don't care one way or the other will still point it out.

I remember when ShB was released and there were lots of problems with SMN. Things like the doubleweaving of pet actions and their responsiveness and Bahamut/Phoenix not triggering their skills during the summon process (solved for Bahamut but not for Phoenix).
Some discussions took place here in the english forum at that time and suggestions to make SMN better were made. For instance, the possibility of merging DWT with Summon Bahamut, having "free" Ruin IV's during Bahamut phase (to ease the problems with doubleweaving pet actions and they not executing leading to less stacks of Ruin IV) and making summons stay put where they were summoned. In the end, they changed pet actions to GCD and it solved quite a lot of problems actually.
However, we can see that those previous suggestions were, more or less, implemented now (guess similar discussions happened in other forums too), but these changes also ultimately changed how SMN works mechanically and, the way I see it, were not addressed properly. We have now a job that is aesthetically good but at the same time bland with no inherent mechanics.

- Aetherflow/Fester is a completely disjoint part of the kit now that the DoTs are gone. (Before we at least had the link Summon Phoenix/DWT > Tri-disaster reset > DoT Refresh > Aetherflow > buffed Fester by DoTs)

- Titan/Ifrit/Garuda still plays as filler phase with the same weight as casting Ruin III/Pet actions in the 5.x SMN, but less meaningful. They are not required for any of the burst phases, they contribute nothing to them.

- They made Bahamut and Phoenix become like a DoT with their skill being automatic. (Making them just stay in place when summoned would solve the problem of them trying to follow us and cancelling attacks, imo.)
Would like to see Summon Bahamut/Phoenix also trigger Ahk Morn/Revelation on spot, now that they are GCD. But that's just a personal wish.

- Pet is still a thing with only two abilites linked to it. (It's past time to remove pets completely as a source of abilities, if it's going to be like this. Give those abilites to the SMNs themselves and make Carbunble just a glamour effect that can be turned on and off if the player desires. I don't know, maybe you open the book it spawns, changes colors depending on the attunement phase and do some animations when you "cast" spells. Purely comestic.)


The thing is that SMN needs adjusments, needs more oGCDs (to keep us more active) and need actual job mechanics.

I don't have anything much to add since I use SCH more than SMN, but I will say that the job doesn't even feel like a caster now that half of the skills are instant cast.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

If there’s still going to be a continued discussion in this thread, can certain people please stop saying that somebody’s subjective gameplay preferences are wrong or that someone has to be trolling solely because the somebody in question happens to prefer the newer job design to the older job design? It’s pretty rude, and I doubt that Square Enix is as likely to take the contents of this thread seriously when it contains what some could see as the appearance of continued harassment.

Preferring the newer job design doesn’t automatically mean that there still aren’t rooms for improvement as well either; I’d like to see Ruin IV considered as being changed into an ability so that it can be weaved with other spells for instance, as one friendly proposal of the top of my head. The current job isn’t perfect even if I do personally (subjectively) prefer it to its previous form.

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Sharing this again because it’s still relevant to this thread. There have been multiple people in said thread who personally prefer the newer job design yet have been criticized for simply explaining a subjective preference or describing spell differences, with them sometimes being called trolls, having their past experience with the job called into question, or being insulted in other ways. Many game discussions often involve multiple perspectives, and that’s fine as long as there are no appearances of harassment.

Some popular content creators like Larryzaur have also stated that (and went on to explain why) they prefer the newer summoner design to the older design; is Larryzaur also wrong?

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

As someone who prefers the newer job design to the older job design, I also previously noted in this thread multiple areas where each of the newer spells technically differed, but I also mentioned other improvements that I would like to see; I’m not opposed to newer updates.

One of those things was that I felt that the level 86 elemental trait (that introduces what I feel are the most significant factors in terms of deciding elemental usage order) should be swapped around with some lower-level trait, since I’m not personally a fan of limiting those major spells and abilities to the newest content.

Another thing is that being able to cast the attack buff when you’re not in the middle of battle should be a thing again, since you can’t currently have it prepared right before a raid boss is initially pulled.

All that said, I think it’s totally fine if other people on these forums have other suggestions or even major dislikes too as long as they’re shared respectfully.

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Sharing this again as well so that people again see that I’m not against the job getting further updates, also including some personal preferences; I don’t want that to be ignored.

But yeah, certain posts being rude isn’t going to help forum feedback be taken more seriously; it’ll more likely just be ignored then.

I will say this, I hated old SMNs design. I could not grasp it at all and it made the class almost completely inaccessible to me.

But that wasn't an issue with the job, it was an issue with the player.

So, I picked up Red Mage and still main it now even after finally being able to play SMN with it's new design.

Because SMN is now so simple that after the shiny new toy feeling wore off I got bored and went back to RDM.

So was it worth it? To many sure, but honestly if they hadn't have redone SMN I would have landed in the same situation I am in right now.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

Some popular content creators like Larryzaur have also stated that (and went on to explain why) they prefer the newer summoner design to the older design; is Larryzaur also wrong?

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Can Larry have an opinion, yes he can. Can Larry also be wrong, yes he can. Being a content creator doesn't mean you give them a free pass when you feel they are wrong about something. Larry has made a gushing video about summoner with every patch. He loves the identity of Summoner. Honestly, I have no idea how he truly feels about 6.0 summoner because I don't know if he posts on the main boards or not. Maybe it's better if he does post with an alt so people can have an honest debate without letting youtube stardom get in the way.

These are the forums; we discuss and debate until we find common ground a mutual path forward. I've had many debates with lead Summoners on these boards and have seen many good ideas come from it over the years.

After reading a lot of the feedback from the forums, the general consensus is that while main like the new changes some feel it is lacking in mechanics and over all depth. Others feel it took too much away from the previous version of the job when it didn't really need too. We feel that though the job changes have merit they didn't address some problems 5.0 had and created new one.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

But yeah, certain posts being rude isn’t going to help forum feedback be taken more seriously; it’ll more likely just be ignored then.

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This ignores the fact that at least one specific participant in this thread has been "I like the new updates, and YOU PEOPLE without READING COMPREHENSION should just GET OVER IT." If they bring smoke despite not liking it when it gets thrown back in their face, maybe they ought to frame their arguments from that angle instead of being a disingenuous stain about it, crowing about how they got what they want and other players who have countered their statements in every thread they word-vomit into with reasonable and detailed arguments can just "suck it up", or that those people should "stop whining" while also shrieking about how if anything changes to current SMN they'll drop the job immediately.

People have been offering polite feedback on these forums for years and the vast majority of it has been roundly ignored. Frustration should be expected, and it's not made better when some smug jackass crashes into every discussion with a self-declared goal to be the "voice of opposition" in any thread criticizing the new direction of the job.