So you're telling me..

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Simple way to nerf Reaper damage is to flatout remove Heavy Thr- I mean Death's Design. Easy fix honestly.

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Honestly while I don't think that RPR needs to become even easier than it already is exactly...
Shadow of Death feels incredibly tacked on and boring, it really breaks the flow completely.

I wouldn't mourn its loss one bit.

Actually reaper is meant to be competing with SAM on DPS. No surprise that there were no dps nerfs, since it is currently competing with SAM already.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Simple way to nerf Reaper damage is to flatout remove Heavy Thr- I mean Death's Design. Easy fix honestly.

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Yeah, easy way to kill the job.

i swear, this foolishness is why SE doesn't give a damn about the english forum.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Yeah, easy way to kill the job.

i swear, this foolishness is why SE doesn't give a damn about the english forum.

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I could say the same about all the bad takes that seem to think that every job in the game HAS to have the same DPS performance.

Bunch of babies IMO. The stat squish was a huge mistake as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Yeah, easy way to kill the job.

i swear, this foolishness is why SE doesn't give a damn about the english forum.

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They barely consider feedback from the JP side of things, don't you fret none.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

The stat squish was a huge mistake as far as I'm concerned.

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IIRC, the stat squish was in no small part due to networking stuff that is well above my understanding of how internet doohickies work. But what I do recall off the top my head, packet sizes were getting large enough to be a problem as larger and larger numbers needed to be calculated. It was explained during one of the presentations leading up to EW's release.

So they nerfed the one thing that didn't actually matter. Gotta say, bravo SE.
AC didn't mean anything anyway, not to anyone with some sense. I would call the reaper change an uno reverse move by square and I love it lol.

I won't go as far as to say the stat squish was a bad idea. The problem is that on top of the stat squish they decided to do potency nerfs to a lot of jobs as well that weren't entirely necessary.

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Originally Posted by Rym

Actually reaper is meant to be competing with SAM on DPS. No surprise that there were no dps nerfs, since it is currently competing with SAM already.

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My frustrations with calls for nerfs stems from this. We know it was meant to compete or be close to SAM. But because it's seemingly the easiest DPS job, it should be nerfed. But we also know for a fact that SE doesn't balanced on ease to play, or at the very least it is what they claim.

If we are worried that RPR is too easy to be considered close to SAM, why don't we call for it to get more difficult? Not asking to redesign the loop, but perhaps having DD harder to execute at certain times during our combos. I dunno, for me it's hard to gauge difficulty from a gameplay point of view. I can agree it's more forgiving, but despite that it can still feel tight on bursts when you take into account fight mechs and a 40-60 second burst phase.

Could put positional requirements on Enshroud attacks. Kinda backwards thinking to put pos on 2 attacks and then say yeah you don't need those in Enshroud.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Could put positional requirements on Enshroud attacks. Kinda backwards thinking to put pos on 2 attacks and then say yeah you don't need those in Enshroud.

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Because enshroud attacks are 1.5 gcds. That would open a can of worms for a few reasons and would be a headache for SE in the end.

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Originally Posted by Maverick_Haas

My frustrations with calls for nerfs stems from this. We know it was meant to compete or be close to SAM. But because it's seemingly the easiest DPS job, it should be nerfed. But we also know for a fact that SE doesn't balanced on ease to play, or at the very least it is what they claim.

If we are worried that RPR is too easy to be considered close to SAM, why don't we call for it to get more difficult? Not asking to redesign the loop, but perhaps having DD harder to execute at certain times during our combos. I dunno, for me it's hard to gauge difficulty from a gameplay point of view. I can agree it's more forgiving, but despite that it can still feel tight on bursts when you take into account fight mechs and a 40-60 second burst phase.

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Wait how do we '' know '' this?
RPR is not a selfish DPS...
If the rest of the other Jobs are to go on which I don't see why we wouldn't then RPR is a utility DPS Job and should be on the level of DRG or MNK ( and MNK is too high too ).
Where exactly are you guys getting this idea from that it's meant to be up there with SAM?

I keep seeing people throw this out and I dunno what exactly people are basing this on...
This whole argument about ease of play is completely pointless to try and argue against too the logs show what they show, yes it is completely fair to say that RPR is objectively easier.
That doesn't mean that individuals might not disagree but the stats show what they show.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Because enshroud attacks are 1.5 gcds. That would open a can of worms for a few reasons and would be a headache for SE in the end.

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Eh by 7.0 there won't be any positionals left. Too hard after all.

Just saying if you want to make Reaper more difficult that would be a way of doing it.

When I play Monk I still do pos due to muscle memory.

Yoshi P's design with Reaper being overtuned is he wanted the job to have impact and I believe that's why the potencies are very strong for a mostly braindead job.

The only nuance of skill you really need is committing to your Soul Reaver stacks(I like this) and keeping Heavy Thrust up.

Pos are really a non-issue with True North which makes me feel like positionals aren't required at all.

The big complaint the vocal minority here has on Reaper is that it has high DPS with Utility attached as well whereas BLM/SAM do not. Thus. Outrage.

If I have any personal complaints on Reaper myself it's that Harvest Moon is niche and can be overlooked in favor of Harpe spam.

Edit: Monk is top tier too. And that Thunderclap dash is sexy as fuck. So good. People don't like Monk/Reaper putting in work and making those BLM/SAM salty. And making NIN/DRG underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Wait how do we '' know '' this?
RPR is not a selfish DPS...
If the rest of the other Jobs are to go on which I don't see why we wouldn't then RPR is a utility DPS Job and should be on the level of DRG or MNK ( and MNK is too high too ).
Where exactly are you guys getting this idea from that it's meant to be up there with SAM?

I keep seeing people throw this out and I dunno what exactly people are basing this on...
This whole argument about ease of play is completely pointless to try and argue against too the logs show what they show, yes it is completely fair to say that RPR is objectively easier.
That doesn't mean that individuals might not disagree but the stats show what they show.

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How is reaper not a selfish dps? Just because it had a 3% two minute CD that yields less raid dps than every other raid cool down in the game? That makes them some kinda support job? I assure you I do not press that button for you. I press it to get PH. Jeezus it is time to change your approach to what should and shouldn’t be doing good dps. Its been stated this job would be deal high dps on par or beating samurai. Here we are, that future came true. Let’s enjoy being everything DRK wishes they were

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

Let’s enjoy being everything DRK wishes they were

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A good tank that is visually appealing and doesn't have a terribly implemented invuln that players have been complaining about in every language native to the territories this game is playable in?

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

A good tank that is visually appealing and doesn't have a terribly implemented invuln that players have been complaining about in every language native to the territories this game is playable in?

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More aimed at what dark knight was in games like 11. An actual dps that uses its soul and such to increase damage.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

More aimed at what dark knight was in games like 11. An actual dps that uses its soul and such to increase damage.

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ah i miss tho days of draining x3 but reaper is almost bringing me back to that nostalgic feel.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

How is reaper not a selfish dps? Just because it had a 3% two minute CD that yields less raid dps than every other raid cool down in the game?

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Yes. That's literally what a selfish DPS means. Good job figuring it out.

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Originally Posted by Rym

Actually reaper is meant to be competing with SAM on DPS. No surprise that there were no dps nerfs, since it is currently competing with SAM already.

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Then give SAM a raid buff. None of the melee should be competing with SAM. If they were then it defeats the entire point of SAM being a selfish DPS. RPR not getting a huge potency nerf is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Eh by 7.0 there won't be any positionals left. Too hard after all.

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It's not about that, it will be about players with high ping, etc. Believe it or not, most players don't find positionals hard, they just find it annoying.

Kinda like nutella, we are all able to consume, but you either love it or hate it.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

It's not about that, it will be about players with high ping, etc. Believe it or not, most players don't find positionals hard, they just find it annoying.

Kinda like nutella, we are all able to consume, but you either love it or hate it.

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+1
Never found positional hard, always able to run to the right positional inbetween GCD and if I have to avoid AOE, 2 charge of true north are always handy.

I do found it annoying when our Tank putting the boss in awkward position like only tiny gap between the boss and the edge of the arena. or some boss that will target each party member and keep turning all the time.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Then give SAM a raid buff. None of the melee should be competing with SAM. If they were then it defeats the entire point of SAM being a selfish DPS. RPR not getting a huge potency nerf is ridiculous.

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What? So, you're telling me that Samurai should be beating all melee in both aDPS and rDPS? No, thats not broken or anything.

Keep the salt coming. I love it.

Patch notes were pretty good, i dont know how much the specific changes impact the rankings damage wise up but balance is gonna be at least somewhat better. I personally think reaper's skill floor/cap is still an issue, and an underrated advantage aswell when it comes to more difficult content, where your output doesnt tank as much while you are learning. I guess we'll see after savage.

Crest halved and still the best melee defensive, but id say now the biggest outlier in this balance department is drg not having one instead of another job getting a mini healer cd, unlikely that changes anytime soon but the change is good.
In an ideal world it would have been better to just give all the other melees some skill of similar power, but it was just unreasonable to have 1 class have it while others sit there for a couple years to maybe get it next xpac.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Keep the salt coming. I love it.

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Very cringe, at least when you were challenging people to run content so you could wipe the floor with them it was funny

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

What? So, you're telling me that Samurai should be beating all melee in both aDPS and rDPS? No, thats not broken or anything.

Keep the salt coming. I love it.

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They should be outright the top of all melee considering the only thing they do is dps and bring zero utility. Reaper being able to not only keep up, but out perform them in most fights makes bringing a SAM into a fight pointless. The same applies to MNK imo. RPR and MNK both are overperforming.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

They should be outright the top of all melee considering the only thing they do is dps and bring zero utility. Reaper being able to not only keep up, but out perform them in most fights makes bringing a SAM into a fight pointless. The same applies to MNK imo. RPR and MNK both are overperforming.

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They are outright top dps, in the bracket that gauges that: aDPS. Reaper, monk, drg, and nin should be outperforming samurai in rdps. It's a problem that only monk and reaper do at the moment. The fact that Samurai was beating everyone in rDPS and aDPS in StB is a problem and it was broken. If you're only defense is that they bring nothing else to the table except for dps, then you're going to need a stronger argument.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

They are outright top dps, in the bracket that gauges that: aDPS. Reaper, monk, drg, and nin should be outperforming samurai in rdps. It's a problem that only monk and reaper do at the moment. The fact that Samurai was beating everyone in rDPS and aDPS in StB is a problem and it was broken. If you're only defense is that they bring nothing else to the table except for dps, then you're going to need a stronger argument.

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He doesn't need a stronger argument, the other competing melees (mnk and reaper) both bring raid hp recovery options so they should be marginally lower in rDPS than the class that doesn't bring anything but damage. If SAM is being beaten in rDPS outside of the top percentiles it probably means it's bordering not worth bringing at all in those top percentiles as they will tend to use raidbuffs much better than an average raider.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

He doesn't need a stronger argument, the other competing melees (mnk and reaper) both bring raid hp recovery options so they should be marginally lower in rDPS than the class that doesn't bring anything but damage. If SAM is being beaten in rDPS outside of the top percentiles it probably means it's bordering not worth bringing at all in those top percentiles as they will tend to use raidbuffs much better than an average raider.

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If sub 90% isn't able to compete then that's an issue of playing better. Like I said before, the fact that Samurai was beating everyone in both brackets in StB was a problem, and it was broken. They are pushing the most DPS of any melee, as is indicated by their spot on the aDPS bracket. It's just not a blowout anymore.

If anything, mediocre Samurai can't get away with being mediocre anymore. This is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

the fact that Samurai was beating everyone in both brackets in StB was a problem, and it was broken.

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Fine, then give us a raid buff.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

If sub 90% isn't able to compete then that's an issue of playing better. Like I said before, the fact that Samurai was beating everyone in both brackets in StB was a problem, and it was broken. They are pushing the most DPS of any melee, as is indicated by their spot on the aDPS bracket. It's just not a blowout anymore.

If anything, mediocre Samurai can't get away with being mediocre anymore. This is a good thing.

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Good job dodging the main point of the post. SAM rDPS should be higher than MNK and RPR, because those two offer more than damage to the party, and it's not. I don't care how unbalanced SAM was in SB because it isn't SB anymore. I did in fact stipulate "marginally".

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Fine, then give us a raid buff.

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Line up you burst with ours then. You fail to understand that Reaper's raid buff functions selfishly. It is not like the others.

SE to this entire thread:

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.5e24d796...pid=ImgRaw&r=0

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Good job dodging the main point of the post. SAM rDPS should be higher than MNK and RPR, because those two offer more than damage to the party, and it's not. I don't care how unbalanced SAM was in SB because it isn't SB anymore. I did in fact stipulate "marginally".

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You're right, it's not StB. Things are as they should be right now, minus DRG and Nin not outdoing Sam in the rDPS department. Reaper and Monk are like 2-3% above Samurai in rDPS. The sky is falling!

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

You're right, it's not StB. Things are as they should be right now, minus DRG and Nin not outdoing Sam in the rDPS department. Reaper and Monk are like 2-3% above Samurai in rDPS. The sky is falling!

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Yeah whatever keep hand-waving everything in favour of your own misguided balance logic Mr. contented RPR main. Historically SE has been pretty concerned with keeping SAM players happy, so you as a RPR main should probably enjoy the time in the sun.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Yeah whatever keep hand-waving everything in favour of your own misguided balance logic Mr. contented RPR main. Historically SE has been pretty concerned with keeping SAM players happy, so you as a RPR main should probably enjoy the time in the sun.

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I sure will. Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Maxilor

SE to this entire thread:

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.5e24d796...pid=ImgRaw&r=0

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They don't want to risk screwing things up in the Savage patch.
6.1 will be the big balance patch/ potential reworks ( based on data from Savage ).

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

They don't want to risk screwing things up in the Savage patch.
6.1 will be the big balance patch/ potential reworks ( based on data from Savage ).

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True, true. I was just being silly and making fun of the people overreacting.

6.1 will be the true test.

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Line up you burst with ours then. You fail to understand that Reaper's raid buff functions selfishly. It is not like the others.

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Most raid buffs can function selfishly....doesn't change the fact that they are raid buffs and benefit the raid. SAM does not bring any raid buffs or anything that benefits the raid outside of straight DPS. If MNK and RPR can compete with them for the top DPS spot then what's the point of SAM? Back when SAM was introduced it had the highest potency across the board and weas stated by the developers that they intentionally designed SAM to always be the top DPS BECAUSE its a selfish DPS job that brings zero utility.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Most raid buffs can function selfishly....doesn't change the fact that they are raid buffs and benefit the raid. SAM does not bring any raid buffs or anything that benefits the raid outside of straight DPS. If MNK and RPR can compete with them for the top DPS spot then what's the point of SAM? Back when SAM was introduced it had the highest potency across the board and weas stated by the developers that they intentionally designed SAM to always be the top DPS BECAUSE its a selfish DPS job that brings zero utility.

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Hilariously enough, and I discussed this very briefly with Kazimere over Discord, this is exactly the problem that Monk faced exiting Heavensward: no raid buffs (it did have the blunt debuff at one point... but how many jobs did that benefit?), entirely a selfish DPS that was being left behind due to a stacking buff meta that overrode whatever personal contributions to a raid that even the best Monk players could muster. With Stormblood came some form of utility (for limited comps), as well as the introduction of a new selfish DPS job to eat its lunch. Which, ultimately, Samurai did in both terms of design and player population, and still is now.

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/archives/56364034.html (credit to xou_ from Twintania for linking this in a Ninja thread.)

SE already has an extremely poor record of shifting selfish DPS into being more supportive, it's called Monk. If the "solution" that has been peddled here (give Samurai a raid utility or two beyond just straight up damage) does get implemented, I have zero faith in SE's ability to integrate that into a job that hasn't had such a utility for 90 levels and three expansions without completely screwing it up, because they couldn't do it right for Monk that existed without such things for ARR and HW without ultimately compromising its identity and gameplay.

As I said to Kazimere, I think it's totally acceptable for there to be purely selfish DPS in the game, DPS that provide no 'utility' to a raid beyond their damage. The 'fix' for them isn't to give them utilities, it's to make their damage THE thing that people bring them for. It has to be decisively such, because if not, the job will get left behind. Again, we have Monk as the example for what happens to a selfish DPS when that isn't the case, and we also have everything that's happened to it from Stormblood on as an example of why SE shouldn't be trusted in that regard.

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Originally Posted by Rubytoe

Reaper can aoe heal the party, provide a party damage buff that last 20s and do more dps numbers than samurai and black Mage? Why even play any other melee, outside of aesthetics?

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Hey you're talking about a game where a support class (RDM) can have an insta raise, on demand self healing, substantial utility and do more damage than a Summoner. "Jack of trades master of none" class philosophy btw.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Most raid buffs can function selfishly....doesn't change the fact that they are raid buffs and benefit the raid. SAM does not bring any raid buffs or anything that benefits the raid outside of straight DPS. If MNK and RPR can compete with them for the top DPS spot then what's the point of SAM? Back when SAM was introduced it had the highest potency across the board and weas stated by the developers that they intentionally designed SAM to always be the top DPS BECAUSE its a selfish DPS job that brings zero utility.

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You do understand that the DPS that is boosted on the Sam from raid buffs is given to the job that is giving the buff, right? Like I said, if the Sam is topping rDPS as well, it is because it is so powerful in the aDPS department that its boosted DPS is still overshadowing the buffer, who is the one being given the numbers from the boost. You talk of balance, yet completely overlook how busted that is. This is essentially why Sam was a lock for speed runs. They were so powerful that they didn't need buffs.

Sam is 2-3% behind RPR and MNK, AO last week. Boost DRG and NIN to be above Sam in rDPS, as well, and all will be well.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

Hilariously enough, and I discussed this very briefly with Kazimere over Discord, this is exactly the problem that Monk faced exiting Heavensward: no raid buffs (it did have the blunt debuff at one point... but how many jobs did that benefit?), entirely a selfish DPS that was being left behind due to a stacking buff meta that overrode whatever personal contributions to a raid that even the best Monk players could muster. With Stormblood came some form of utility (for limited comps), as well as the introduction of a new selfish DPS job to eat its lunch. Which, ultimately, Samurai did in both terms of design and player population, and still is now.

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/archives/56364034.html (credit to xou_ from Twintania for linking this in a Ninja thread.)

SE already has an extremely poor record of shifting selfish DPS into being more supportive, it's called Monk. If the "solution" that has been peddled here (give Samurai a raid utility or two beyond just straight up damage) does get implemented, I have zero faith in SE's ability to integrate that into a job that hasn't had such a utility for 90 levels and three expansions without completely screwing it up, because they couldn't do it right for Monk that existed without such things for ARR and HW without ultimately compromising its identity and gameplay.

As I said to Kazimere, I think it's totally acceptable for there to be purely selfish DPS in the game, DPS that provide no 'utility' to a raid beyond their damage. The 'fix' for them isn't to give them utilities, it's to make their damage THE thing that people bring them for. It has to be decisively such, because if not, the job will get left behind. Again, we have Monk as the example for what happens to a selfish DPS when that isn't the case, and we also have everything that's happened to it from Stormblood on as an example of why SE shouldn't be trusted in that regard.

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People will bring them though. Those who understand anyway. Problem is, people look at what fflogs uses for rankings (rDPS) without understanding the other brackets.

If anything Sam could bump up another percent in the aDPS department, giving it a solid 2-3% lead over reaper and monk. Then, boost DRG and NIN up a bit more if their recent tinkering didn't do the trick. That would even them all out in the rDPS department better. You're going to have a top and a bottom though. It's just the way it is. However, that top should never be Sam in the rDPS department. At best, it should be third.