Sexual harassment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Again, I think you're an intelligent enough person. However, I don't think you are stating what I'm getting at. The past is not mitigating the future when there is a problem now. Again, how is telling a pregnant woman who needs help now for example, "don't get pregnant" It's basically hand washing. I'm asking you again what steps now can you think of instead of clamoring to the that excuse that we can do to help victims now. We just ignore it and cling to a past excuse?

---

I mean I already stated that we should educate people on such issues, but that in itself will not solve the issue since we cannot control the actions of others, so educate people of the risks of certain actions and interactions have while informing them of agencies and programs they can to obtain help. Most that education will come from experience in the past from others. What else can we do outside of do our pest to educate and make people aware of the risks? I mean unless you are saying we should change how the law handles these issues and make it so people are guilty until proven innocent since that would provide an immediate consequence, which is something I do not think many would agree with since laws should never work that way.

Educating people before the issue happens, and informing that there are places one can go to try and obtain help regarding the issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Let's put this in another way using this comparison on how this dialog with you at its current state is frustrating.

Two people are renting a place, turns out one of them is a bit short on rent.

Person A: I'm going to come up a little short on rent this month.

Person B: What? Why didn't you save enough to make sure this didn't happen.

Person A: I know, but right now can you help me come up with ideas on what I can do for this month

Person B: Well you should save enough money to make sure it doesn't happen.

Person A: Well, what is it that we can do now to make sure rent is paid off now?

Person B: Well to mitigate this problem you should have saved enough money to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Person A: Yeah okay, but again what can we do about paying rent now?

Person B: Why is it wrong for me to tell you that you should have saved money so you could have paid off rent this month.

Person A: Look, I'm asking what can we do about NOW.

---

In this example the person could look up an agency that was created to offer some assistance to help with the situation, and normally that assistance will also come with tips to help avoid being found in such a situation again. I am sure much can be done to improve the agencies that are designed to tackle such issues but once again as I mentioned it still comes down to the person doing their part to seek the help. I mean I did mention people should seek out help when they need it, but until things change people should also do what they can to protect themselves. I am saying we should do both, that is the main reason why I am confused, it seems as if you feel I think it should be one or the other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilseph

One other thing to also mention is a recent post where the guy being accused threw a curveball and accused the group of posting a cropped screenshot taken out of context. It wouldn't have mattered if the group didn't respond to that accusation, but alas, they did. While it doesn't seem like much, the problem here is that the group has been proven to be willing to post a cropped screenshot that had been taken out of context. This does bring into question on the credibility on all of their other screenshot evidence - whether or not any of the other screenshots that they had posted had also been heavily cropped and taken out of context too.

---

That guy told one magazine that he could prove that he is innocent and that those are all lies but does not feel like he wants to...why? If those would truly be lies I would prove my innocence because otherwise your whole reputation could be gone. So for me that feels more like he has nothing on his hand but wanted to say something anyway. He also posted a discord screenshot but marked all the sentences that are not his with black markers. Why? How is that in any kind of form better evidence and not some form of manipulation? Also we had a chat screenshot where one of the victims talked to the other friend that wanted them to go back and they never denied that the guy would try to blackmail them.

Heck even the guy itself posted to one of his newest "lovers" that its all a game for him with the other females and that she is the one and only..

I am really sorry but the evidence does not look really good for him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

If those would truly be lies I would prove my innocent because otherwise your whole reputation could be gone.

---

Not to defend him, but when you put things into perspective, his reputation immediately hit rock bottom the moment the allegations started to surface. At that point, he really can’t refute the allegations because a lot of the community didn't trust his word from the get-go. Just look at the Reddit threads and see how many posts denounced him as human scum before he could get a single word in. Tell me, would you have extended the same courtesy that you gave to the group of believing every single word they said to the guy being accused had he refuted the claims much earlier?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

Why? How is that in any kind of form better evidence and not some form of manipulation?

---

It’s one of the only few pieces of evidence that both sides have presented that remained consistent with each other. All other forms of information are very one-sided and are circumstantial regardless of who gave the statement. Evidence that both the guy being accused and the group having “blackmail” material came from chats of other people, not the guy or group respectively. Again, it doesn’t make the guy being accused innocent, but it does paint a bad picture of the victims.

Edit: For clarification, I agree that the guy being accused should be punished for this kind of behaviour regardless of the outcome. However, we as a community need to treat this situation with utmost case so as not to repeat a similar situation with the false allegations and defamation of a content creator over on another game’s subreddit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

That guy told one magazine that he could prove that he is innocent and that those are all lies but does not feel like he wants to...why?
Heck even the guy itself posted to one of his newest "lovers" that its all a game for him with the other females and that she is the one and only..

---

He actually posted more than that recently - might want to look at his twitter where he pinned his blog. I didn't want to originally post the info because he was using their real names, looking like an attempt to dox them, or have them doxxed.

Like I said in earlier posts, he still doesn't refute the other allegations where he'd keep women around by threatening self harm. Or the fact he'd become verbally abusive if the women interacted with other men - or people he didn't approve of. He chose his victims well for the most part. I mean the argument isn't if these are "upstanding women, that have done no wrong" - it's if he was doing a pattern of manipulative behavior based on sexual interest or gender.

You have a million tools to silence someone who is trying to be funny. There may be some extreme cases, but they are very rare. If you are one of them, report to SE and I'm sure they'll handle it. They are pretty sensitive with this kind of stuff.

On a side note, if there's anyone that has been legit "sexually harassed" in this game I strongly doubt they'll happily post it here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Solarra

@QT - I'm really not sure it's wise to leave that link in your last post up. Real names should be protected at all costs (even if they are out elsewhere, I still think we should be responsible here).

---

It's already a pinned tweet on his twitter, and other groups have posted the direct links. He had edited out the real names recently. I said the original post on his blog he did not.

If you think this thread or it's contained topic is funny please leave... this is not the thread for you...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

Given that carrying a gun or a knife is a crime in my country that's a pretty terrible example. I find your victim blaming very disturbing, it's SEs job to make this game a safe place, not for victims of abuse to be hounded out of the game which is what seems to be suggesting

---

The game is safe if you use its functions. SE can't control people communication and interaction. Or you really want chat disabled and all game be like feast? Please look forward to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Okamimaru

If you think this thread or it's contained topic is funny please leave... this is not the thread for you...

---

need.................more...........ellipses..............for..........dramatic..................pauses.................

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DDkiki

The game is safe if you use its functions. SE can't control people communication and interaction. Or you really want chat disabled and all game be like feast? Please look forward to it.

---

They can just ban the abusers/harrasers if it's serious enough, the game will be a far better place without them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

They can just ban the abusers/harrasers if it's serious enough, the game will be a far better place without them.

---

I think everyone agree on that IF the guilt was proven in-game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QT_Melon

So you propose that we continue with sexism and treat males as something to be feared.

---

"certain people will always prey on the weakness of others"...how did you construe this to "continue with sexism and treat males as something to be feared"? I really can't follow the logic here...

Also, by focusing on males, you seem to imply that females are not capable of "prey[ing] on the weakness of others".

Quote:

---

So much for equality.

---

I am all for equality. We can start with seeing in more female dead bodies on the battlefield. Look at this statistics: in every operation, more than 90% of dead soldiers are males.

This is sexism! It should be 50/50! How can the men dominate in dying! Women should have equal and unhindered rights to die too!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

They can just ban the abusers/harrasers if it's serious enough, the game will be a far better place without them.

---

I have no issue with this, but what about interactions that go on outside of the game? More than a small amount of the TMP drama went on in discord or other external methods of comunication and I would even go so far as to say with as calculating as the accused harrasser in that situation comes off (by alleged victim testimony) he would have known what he could and could not get away with saying in an ingame chat.

The issue with SE accepting external proof of "harrassment" swings all the way back around to the fact that the playerbase can't even agree on what constitutes harrassment. If SE would accept discord text or recordings as evidence of harrassment how long would it be before some random offended person reported another player for saying "sorry friendo, your dps just isn't going to let us beat enrage since you're sitting at 2.5k at level 70. Try to beat up on a dummy some more" and trying to get that person banned?

A wealth of issues crop up when SE tries to extend their sphere of influence beyond things they know as certifiably true as well. Someome could screenshot a similar looking au ra to my character and make a discord calling themself Moro Murasaki and say some rude things. SE has no way to prove that is me though, how can they punish me for those actions? The answer is they can't and shouldn't.

I'm all for legitimately abusive people getting in an appropriate amount of trouble for their actions but as good as "yeah ban away, harrassers are evil" might feel to say you have to consider the implications of how such a policy could be implimented.

Let me be clear - if someone is in ingame chat and there were chat logs of them doing all the things the accused harrasser in the TMP story did I say 100% yes ban away because there is indisputable evidence but without something concrete (and honestly with little more than multiple anecdotes) there is no way a ban is justifiable right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AriaFairchild

I am all for equality. We can start with seeing in more female dead bodies on the battlefield. Look at this statistics: in every operation, more than 90% of dead soldiers are males.

This is sexism! It should be 50/50! How can the men dominate in dying! Women should have equal and unhindered rights to die too!

---

Don't forget about deaths in the workplace and suicide rates. Men dominate those as well. Where is the equality?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

...what about interactions that go on outside of the game?

---

You are setting up a straw-man. It would be completely unreasonable to expect Square to act on things that happen outside of FFXIV but no one has asked that they do so in this thread (unless I missed something). Square has no control over what happens outside and we already know GMs cannot accept screenies as evidence due to the posibility of them being tampered with.


However, in-game harassment is against the ToS, and given evidence I am absolutely confident GMs do take action and if necessary issue bans.

Edit: I'm not counting Square's own outside events like the Fan-Fest here. I would expect them to take action if something happened at one of those.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I have no issue with this, but what about interactions that go on outside of the game? More than a small amount of the TMP drama went on in discord or other external methods of comunication and I would even go so far as to say with as calculating as the accused harrasser in that situation comes off (by alleged victim testimony) he would have known what he could and could not get away with saying in an ingame chat.

Let me be clear - if someone is in ingame chat and there were chat logs of them doing all the things the accused harrasser in the TMP story did I say 100% yes ban away because there is indisputable evidence but without something concrete (and honestly with little more than multiple anecdotes) there is no way a ban is justifiable right now.

---

My comments where more in aimed at the people who seemed to be saying that if harnessed the victims should turn the game off.
The TMP case is more complicated as it really does look like a predator using the game and the community to find and groom vulnerable women, this is something that SE needs to have a policy on and take action over. Not sure what they can do but that is probably an issue for the management and legal team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

My comments where more in aimed at the people who seemed to be saying that if harnessed the victims should turn the game.

---

I should also say that people saying this completely ignores the fact that SE also does events outside the game - be it Streams and Fanfest (Which the victims and the predator also attended).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

My comments where more in aimed at the people who seemed to be saying that if harnessed the victims should turn the game.
The TMP case is more complicated as it really does look like a predator using the game and the community to find and groom vulnerable women, this is something that SE needs to have a policy on and take action over. Not sure what they can do but that is probably an issue for the management and legal team.

---

For the most part, I am in agreement with you. Though, the extent to the response that SE should give, I am more on-the-wall about. And I think this would fall more under the NA branch of Square, than it would on the company as a whole. My worry, if SE does decide to respond, brings me back to the whole Koike Incident and how the devs responded to the harassment that happened over that which is still felt today i.e. parsers (this is not a lead-in to a parse debate, so those against or for parsing, please don't turn this thread into that). I feel like the extent of what SE could do would be a global warning through the in-game chat log that they use for event announcements. The TMP situation is just ugly all around. The predator is totally at fault, yes, but because its now become a public spectacle, how the devs will choose to respond if they do at all worries me a little bit.

I think that is why they aren't quick to say anything. I am fine with, but was curious if they do plan to say something. I do think they aren't that callous, and there is also getting it across the various cultural mindsets since this is a global entity

I don't think SE/FFXIV should do anything regarding the TMP issue. The game was used as a medium - just like any other social media website or application. A lot of the interactions also occurred in other mediums, like Discord, Hangouts, and Skype, and one or two in person. And it's rare for those platforms to restrict their users outside of letting the users have control over who they interact with and to whom they share their data that's being stored within the platform's database, so to expect something from SE/FFXIV is a bit much.

However, I do think that whenever harassment (both sexual and not) are reported that they are handled objectively and carefully prior to taking any action. And I think that's all they can really do - address reported issues that occurred on their platform and elevate them to authorities as necessary. And if it's at their events, this wouldn't fall on their jurisdiction either and would/should be elevated to actual legal authorities.

Also, the one incident that I would consider sexual harassment in FFXIV, I reported the user, screenshots and all. A GM promptly contacted me and remained objective as we discussed it. I don't know the outcome at the end of the day, but I've not been bothered by said person. Also helps that he wasn't on the same server.

I acknowledge that my experience is far milder and less intrusive compared to if the person had been in the same FC.

But as a survivor of abuse (sexual, emotional, and physical), it's always going to be in your best interest to remain calm, appear amicable, and keep written logs, as much as I know all you want to do is backlash at the person making you feel cornered. Distance yourself and make clear your intent of closing all lines of communication. From personal experience, legal authorities and strangers peeking into the situation will tend to dismiss you otherwise, and that's the worst thing you can do for your cause and sanity at a time that's already grueling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mnemyx

I don't think SE/FFXIV should do anything regarding the TMP issue.

However, I do think that whenever harassment (both sexual and not) are reported that they are handled objectively and carefully prior to taking any action. And I think that's all they can really do - address reported issues that occurred on their platform and elevate them to authorities as necessary. And if it's at their events, this wouldn't fall on their jurisdiction either and would/should be elevated to actual legal authorities.

---

I disagree a slight bit. Doing something isn't saying "Ban people involved" but they can make an official statement on the matter. That's why I said again I'm curious if they will address it. I think ignoring it when they talk about their community kinda puts them bad light in the sense that it seems like they're ignoring it. I mean they talk about the community and activities their game has influenced, I don't think it's right to have it both ways - where you don't at least state something when there are bad aspects that result as well.

As far as taking actions for players, I again state and hope that maybe they do have a special task force of GMs more qualified to handle a sensitive matter. I think goes a long way, I mean it makes it look like they are looking a bit more at ways to know a player can talk with someone more qualified to handle this - than just a volunteer/regular player that happens to work for them. I don't expect them to get too involved when its outside the game, but staying silent and pretending it doesn't happen when you know this is a game that has a very chatty community in the game and out of it - isn't helpful.

HOWEVER, I do want them to take their time if they do present a statement, which as I said prior - I am sure they are.

Generally speaking, companies don't make statements about individual cases. Any 'crackdown' on harassment could very well be heavy handed and come at the cost of the enjoyment of legitimate players. Look at how everybody is now unable to talk in Feast as a consequence of some bad apples being very vocal and aggressive.

Did read all and everything from OP up to now, it seems most of the posts are treating the harassment as something that is limited to one-to-one relationship, so the multiple "block him/her and get away" answers.

But, most of the times, it is not the case. They are involved a group of people, friends of both parties, and may be as low as a bunch of people, to big as a community, see OP's example.

The hard part of being harassed is not the silly "Miqo'te being harassed by a Roe", but the break of trust between the two players involved, and one of them breaking loose and starting efforts to make other's gaming (and irl) life pretty hard to live on.

In the OP's example, the accused player did not limited itself to harass in-game someone else, he also did used all the means he had (even irl) to harass the other player, and when his efforts were met with rejection, he got mad and managed to take her down in all and everything she was involved in, the game, her friends, everything.

I personally found more disgusting all the people that sided with the offender, than the offender itself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zsolen

You arent groomed from an online game, and 18 is an adult. You know better at 18.

---

*
Except you couldnxt be more wrong if you tried. Communication is all that is required to groom someone's behavior. If you contact someone, you can manipulate them.

And 18 years is still a child. You don't become an adult until your early to mid twenties. Just because the state might consider you an adult for the purposes of the judiciary, it by no means indicates that you are an adult where it really matters. Neuroscience is the authority on this, not arbitrary legal thresholds.

So you're saying someone who is still mentally far from maturation, put into contact with a dangerous predator with an aim to manipulate and groom her, is somehow going to be able to resist despite a network of his allies aiding him?

If you're well meaning... you're far from conveying it. I see no empathy in your insistent denial of the threat people like this pose to vulnerable groups.

I guess sensitivity parameters are activated.

18 is more than old enough, and it is an age of maturity. Teens in general know better, let alone an 18 year old. Traditionally, the age is actually younger than 18. As I said earlier, in the particular example given, that the person did know better. She took steps to protect herself and later decided to give into peer pressure, despite knowing better. You can cling to whatever you want, but the story was that she did know better.

I am trying to protect people on two fronts: From those who wish to prey on them and those that use them to for their own agendas (forced victimization). Those who use these people to create a victim class are just as harmful. I am also trying find exactly what is happening and would never follow mob mentality or witch hunts. That doesn't make me not concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anatha

And 18 years is still a child. You don't become an adult until your early to mid twenties. Just because the state might consider you an adult for the purposes of the judiciary, it by no means indicates that you are an adult where it really matters. Neuroscience is the authority on this, not arbitrary legal thresholds.

---

Pretty much. I mean yes they had to put the line somewhere as to what age you are legally an adult. But if anyone thinks that at 18 you have the all the experience and you just come out legally able to engage in sex and know everything there is about relationships, they are fooling themsevles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Pretty much. I mean yes they had to put the line somewhere as to what age you are legally an adult. But if anyone thinks that at 18 you have the all the experience and you just come out legally able to engage in sex and know everything there is about relationships, they are fooling themsevles.

---

Agreed. I'd like to add on that there are some folks who are new to online communities/chatting in general, so they may not have the knowledge/mind-frame to know when to protect themselves. Sometimes it's hard to know when to trust someone and when a person is toxic and one doesn't really know it until it's too late. Or they happen to trust the wrong person and it burns them. And unlike real life, there really aren't too many resources out there that give you lessons on how to protect yourself online...not in the sense what what you would get for real life situations.

Funnily the people thinking they "won't let it happen" and "I am above all this" are actually very vulnerable to abuse themselves.

I'm a transplant from WOW whose husband insisted i change to FF14. As a Female gamer i have had my share of Harassment. Once confirmed a female player you tend to be a target. In fact i had a stalking situation that was scary and took a long time to resolve and was a big reason why i stopped playing MMO's for awhile. There are a lot of pervs emboldened to behave in ways they never would in real life because ultimately they are all cowards and losers looking to satisfy their perversion. Regardless of the games warnings, there is no excuse or rational for sexual harassment. Any statements advocating such behavior i have to assume is made by like minded people who are themselves perverse and equally disgusting. To those victims of such harassment I say, try not to let it get to you. Report the problem, block the person and just remember that they are pathetic losers who cant get it in the real world so they have to try and get their jollies in-game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lunalepsy

I guess sensitivity parameters are activated.

---

Its insensitivity that is at issue here. Not everyone can handle harassment well. And enjoying a game should not mean that a person should accept and or role over for that behavior. What needs to be addressed is the the bully not the victim. Resolving the problem and rooting out the issue is what must be done to improve not only the gaming community but our society as a whole. Apathy only serves to let the problem spread until we are left with not civilization but world, or virtual world, of garbage. (And here comes the snarky comments of stupid people who still think its funny to be jerks.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Okamimaru

If you think this thread or it's contained topic is funny please leave... this is not the thread for you...

---

I agree, unfortunately there are too many who think this is a funny or unimportant issue. such people are usually those who have no idea what its like to be harassed, raped, or assaulted physically. I unfortunately know all 3. But lack of experience should be no excuse for apathy. The ability to feel empathy for another living thing is at the core of any evolved being. I find it sad and troubling to see so many lack that simple and infinitely important quality these days. But I thank you for bringing up the topic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doozer

Maybe I'm misreading, but are you actually blaming the victim because she "knew better"? You really must've never been abused if a) you think being 18 means someone's magically incapable of being abused unless they """let it""" happen and b) you think knowing better would actually stop someone from being abused. I truly wish it worked that way, but people don't always have control over how others treat (and mistreat) them.

And I don't know about you, but I'm of the mind to believe the victim, because I'm not a heartless scumbag that's more inclined to doubt someone when they say they've been hurt.

And who was actually "mature" at 18? I sure wasn't. I'm pretty sure the only people who think being 18 means you're mature are people under 18.

---

Where do they blame the victim?

Where do they suggest being 18 makes you magically immune to abuse?

Where do you get off saying people who don't default to believing everything a victim says are heartless scumbags? What if I accused your mother/father/husband/wife of rape? Would you just believe me outright? No, because blanket statements around something like this are overwhelmingly stupid.

Ok let's reign it in a little.... save the bickering for the parser debate threads... focus on topic

I like that everyone has decided to argue against everything I say, but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Sexual harassment in-game needs to be addressed. It's not about believing accusations, it's about action being taken when proof is there and also teaching people not to sexually harass others in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doozer

I like that everyone has decided to argue against everything I say, but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Sexual harassment in-game needs to be addressed. It's not about believing accusations, it's about action being taken when proof is there and also teaching people not to sexually harass others in the first place.

---

We're taking umbridge with some of your positions.

I agree with this though. If theres evidence, then yeah, that is something to be addressed. Just bear in mind its case by case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

We're taking umbridge with some of your positions.

---

Yeah, like how I condone genocide or some shit because I said some opinions shouldn't be allowed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doozer

I like that everyone has decided to argue against everything I say, but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Sexual harassment in-game needs to be addressed. It's not about believing accusations, it's about action being taken when proof is there and also teaching people not to sexually harass others in the first place.

---

There are very few people in this thread that have argued against the idea of appropriate action being taken against players who sexually harrass others. The issue people bring up with the TMP case is the lack of anything SE would consider evidence as, to my knowledge, there is little to no ingame chat logs supporting the victims. If these women want to go to the police with their grievances that's another matter entirely but as they stand right now I don't feel like SE has what they need to enact any sort of punishment without stepping outside their own guidelines.

To be very clear, since apparently not immediately blindly agreeing with anyone who accuses someone of sexual hareassment has connotations beyond desiring evidence, I don't feel like sexual harrassment is okay. It was a contributing factor for me in my decision to leave ESO because at the time I played they only had voice chat so there really wasn't an option to hide my gender. I think those who sexually harrass others are generally just crappy people... but I still can't get behind the idea that it is okay to blindly believe anyone who cries wolf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doozer

Yeah, like how I condone genocide or some shit because I said some opinions shouldn't be allowed.

---

I didn't suggest you condoned genocide, at the risk of bringing up posts that appear to have been deleted I suggested that you conflated the issues that arise from allowing opinions such as "question everything, don't automatically believe anyone who claims to be the victim of abuse" with those that could be seen in response to talk of genocide being acceptable.

Saying "don't automatically believe everyone who makes an abuse allegation" leads to due process and the gathering of evidence before potentially ruining someone's life. Saying "genocide is okay" can lead to... genocide. The consequences there are not even comperable which is why your defense of "silence this opinion I don't like because some other opinions can be really harmful" doesn't fly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doozer

I like that everyone has decided to argue against everything I say, but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Sexual harassment in-game needs to be addressed. It's not about believing accusations, it's about action being taken when proof is there and also teaching people not to sexually harass others in the first place.

---

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another? I am no expert, but aren't issues of sexual harassment or abuse products of misplaced desire, and warped view of power and or authority. Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people? What to do if someone feels have they been harassed or abused in any way?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rogatum

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another? I am no expert, but aren't issues of sexual harassment or abuse products of misplaced desire, and warped view of power and or authority. Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people? What to do if someone feels have they been harassed or abused in any way?

---

Careful with that kinda logic, it makes too much sense. People who want to harm others in any way, shape, or form most likely already know what they're doing is wrong. No amount of teaching will prevent people with ill intent from acting on their designs. We can however teach people how best to defend themselves to prevent becoming another statistic.

And all we can do as people when someone does feel harassed or abused is listen to their situation and gather all the information to make the best choice for the current issue. Obviously this varies a lot depending on the severity of the accusation

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rogatum

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another? I am no expert, but aren't issues of sexual harassment or abuse products of misplaced desire, and warped view of power and or authority. Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people? What to do if someone feels have they been harassed or abused in any way?

---

I'd say the best approach would be to hit this from both angles, ie. target both potential abusers and potential victims. Most people who sexually harass others absolutely do know what they are doing is wrong, are aware they are causing distress and simply do not care as long as they can get away with it.
So, if we want to reduce sexual-harassment, creating an environment where it is not tolerated and there are severe consequences will act as a deterrent. It's not exactly 'teaching' people not to do it, just making it clear that such behaviour carries huge risks.

Teaching potential victims how to protect themselves is important, but if you only do that, it tends to be interpreted by many people as simply saying we shouldn't get into situations where somebody can abuse us, and if we do, it's 100% our fault (just look at some of the posts in this thread). That is a dangerous message to send out. It lets the abuser off the hook and its shames the victim, which may make people less likely to speak out.
If an abuser targets someone who fails to protect themselves due to youth, lack of experience, being ill, stressed by real-life issues etc then I'd like to think the community would be there for them, no matter how obvious the danger might seem to anyone looking at their situation from the outside.

Of course, telling people what the danger-signs are and what they can do if they find themselves being harassed is absolutely vital, too.