What is this new anti dps healer attitude?

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Originally Posted by Selova

I mean if you are somehow satisfied with intentionally bring s hindrance to your groups because you can't adapt to reality more power to you I guess. I do feel bad for any groups thst gets you as a healer.

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This is where your problem is, you assume I am speaking as healer.
As a tank, I am really not enjoy at seeing healer casting an offensive spell when my hp is already at 20%.
This is why I said, you can do whatever you want as long as some one didn't die.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

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I was a bit harsh on your differing opinion of the game and it like to apologize. Everyone has a right to express their opinion on the game. So I'm sorry about that. No hard feelings here. Have s nice day.

I believe there is a number of healers who feel they have been pushed out of healing because of the demand that they do DPS or else. So they quit healing and have become very jaded / anti-healer dps in the other roles they perform.

I wish I got more healers that don't spam offensive skill all day and have less than 2 uses of each healing ogcd ability after each wipe.

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Originally Posted by Maystar05

I was just trying to tell you what non-healers are thinking. Great, It's nice to know in a perfect world all the healers out there will never run of MP...even with multiple raising.

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I was doing my weekly Sigmascape NM runs this week, and I didn't have any issues with my MP in some of the worst groups I was in. The only one where I had a tiny bit of issue was in a Kefka normal where I was trying to help a friend get his drop, and that wasn't until I had raised a minimum of 10 times...and I was doing the majority of AOE healing...and single-target healing...AND the majority of the DPS between myself and the other healer (who I raised 4 times alone--they were not new in this group I was in). MP is not an issue in this game even with multiple Raises. Especially for WHM (the often purported "main healer") because they can just Thin Air back to back Raises, making them cost nothing.

The other Kafka normal I had this week that was pushing my limits had 4 new people in it, including my co-healer. I took over the majority again (since they were new), and still never had problems after many, many Raises.

The only one you may have a case for is AST, because it has the weakest MP management of the three, but I can still raise multiple times on all three healers and be fine with my MP. Any healer that is good about managing their MP rarely has problems, unless they died. And even then, they can recover if they're smart about their MP usage and Lucid Dreaming timings.

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Originally Posted by Squintina

By that logic, a PLD should never use Clemency. That's a healing skill. Healing's for healers.
By that logic, no tanks should ever use mitigation CD. The job of a tank is to keep aggro and take on damage. It is not necessary to reduce said damage, that's for the healers to deal with.
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I could be here a little obnoxious but.
PLD should never use clemency, because it cost dps, and tanks dont want to use their tank stance because of the same reason, so they partly dont use their mitigation tools already. :P

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I could be here a little obnoxious but.
PLD should never use clemency, because it cost dps, and tanks dont want to use their tank stance because of the same reason, so they partly dont use their mitigation tools already. :P

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Eh. I like using Clemency. >_>

Requiescat and Holy Sprit is a better use of PLD DPS and MP than Clemency. You don't heal jack compared to how good healer 1-button oGCDs are.

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Originally Posted by technole

Requiescat and Holy Sprit is a better use of PLD DPS and MP than Clemency. You don't heal jack compared to how good healer 1-button oGCDs are.

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Say that to the o8n I was in as PLD where both healers got knocked off at the same time. PLD healer go until they got up and running again.

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Originally Posted by technole

Requiescat and Holy Sprit is a better use of PLD DPS and MP than Clemency. You don't heal jack compared to how good healer 1-button oGCDs are.

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It helps during big pulls, if the healer can't keep it up for whatever reason, or to help them do more DPS, as my Total Eclipe's damage is lame in comparisson (Which of course I can still use in between casts or when I reach a safe threshold). They also help if the healer dies.

Clemency is actually very powerful. 1200 potency, which can also be buffed by Requiescat and Convalescence if applied on yourself.

I don't really care either way since I only tank dungeons. If a healer is focused on dpsing then I just heal myself. If a healer is focused on healing me, then instead of focusing on self heals and cds, I can put out more dps. Makes no difference to me either way.

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

It's impossible for a healer to win this arguement. Either we're DPS'ing too much or too little so i'm just sick of hearing it. ...

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This is the argument that never ends.

You're either in the "more deeps" or you're in the "stop being bad" camp. Those that push for maximum dps at all times, are bad players, and they stress out other players in normal content by basically making the healer's job twice as hard. The "stop being bad" camp, are the ones that know how the game mechanics are supposed to work and get pissed off when "maximum deeps" players do so at the expense of other players instead of following the mechanics like the choreographed battles they are.

That's the problem. One mistake, and you've cost either camp at least 5 minutes.

Everyone else can play with their static, their FC, or even PUG and never hear a complaint because, everyone else does not want to spend several minutes arguing about how to properly play a certain job. Either you finish, or you don't, and if you wipe spend less time assigning blame. Some of you people are just itching for a fight because you like conflict.

Every 4-man dungeon in this game is arranged like this:

Start

Trash mobs

Trash mobs

Trash mobs

First boss

Trash mobs

Trash mobs

Trash mobs

Second boss

Trash mobs

Trash mobs

Trash mobs

Final boss

Except for the Trials/raids.


Knowing that there are a several groups of trash before each boss, means you should either be able to:

Gather one group and kill them quickly by everyone DPS'ing

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Gather two groups, and having DPS burn them down, while Healing the damage to the tank.

What changed with StormBlood is that the developers changed the trash mob pattern so you get ambushed, thus the "drag two groups of mobs together" technique is a guaranteed wipe if you don't know where the ambush is.

Thus as a healer, you might burn more MP trying to recover from a tank that poorly timed their CD's (which guess what, are just long enough so you can't use them twice during trash mobs) , or as a tank, you might have to resort to self-healing if the healer is too busy DPS'ing.

The normal dungeons don't go any faster when you screw up. If someone stops and tries to have an argument about how to play the game in the dungeon, just ignore them and keep going if you're the tank. If you're the healer and someone is telling you to do more dps or to stop dps'ing, then personally, I'd suggest ignoring them, because they are demanding YOU adjust to their play style.

With the raids and trials, there is a specific choreography that works individually for them, and they do NOT go any faster regardless of how much DPS you do. They are dependent on simply not making unrecoverable mistakes. So it's better for the healer to save their MP for healing if it's going slowly, because burning that MP on DPS is not going to speed it up.

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Originally Posted by technole

Requiescat and Holy Sprit is a better use of PLD DPS and MP than Clemency. You don't heal jack compared to how good healer 1-button oGCDs are.

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You don't pay my sub

It's mostly because I play WHM so much. I just like healing and blasting people with holy light is fun.

My PLD is only level 62 so I don't even have Holy Spirit yet!

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Originally Posted by Arutan

Because when you get healer dpsing in the final trial of SB while people die, you can't really expect them to be appreciated. And then they're out of mana because of dpsing so we wipe. Thanks healers for your great work.

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Could the extra healing really have saved them from being ledged for the third time inside of 2 minutes, though?

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

What changed with StormBlood is that the developers changed the trash mob pattern so you get ambushed, thus the "drag two groups of mobs together" technique is a guaranteed wipe if you don't know where the ambush is.

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What are you talking about? All the Stormblood dungeons are highly predictable in their pulls after you do them once or twice. There are no wandering mobs that “ambush you” and “guarantee wipes” in SB dungeons. Even in the latest Expert dungeons the pulls are highly predictable. In Hell’s Lid, there is one mob that “patrols”, and the pack you can pull it with consists of Living Liquid: Dungeon Edition, and his pair of hands die in a few hits.

Thats why I stopped healing. Its either. Healer you DPS Sucks, Or healer, Your not healing enough.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

What are you talking about?

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Play with PUG's and you'll see. "Ambush" mobs are those that are not present before you reach that point, and The Sirensong Sea, Castrum Abania tend to be worse for it.

I'm not going to argue the semantics. The SB dungeons are explicitly designed to break bad HW habits, and discouraging dragging every mob right to the boss room is one of those.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Play with PUG's and you'll see. "Ambush" mobs are those that are not present before you reach that point, and The Sirensong Sea, Castrum Abania tend to be worse for it.

I'm not going to argue the semantics. The SB dungeons are explicitly designed to break bad HW habits, and discouraging dragging every mob right to the boss room is one of those.

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I play with PUGs every time I do Expert Roulette or roulettes in general. When I was leveling my healers (all 3), I ran with PUGs. Same with my DPS that are at 70 except for a few that I only took into Alliance Roulette for quick and easy fun. I still don’t see these “ambushes that guarantee a wipe”, whether I am on healer or on DPS.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Play with PUG's and you'll see. "Ambush" mobs are those that are not present before you reach that point, and The Sirensong Sea, Castrum Abania tend to be worse for it.

I'm not going to argue the semantics. The SB dungeons are explicitly designed to break bad HW habits, and discouraging dragging every mob right to the boss room is one of those.

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I play with pugs frequently. The only time mass pulls aren't done is if the tank or healer is undergeared. Having handled those pulls from both perspectives, I can say your assessment is simply wrong. Once you reach Expert dungeons, virtually every single one of them is wall to wall pulls.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

With the raids and trials, there is a specific choreography that works individually for them, and they do NOT go any faster regardless of how much DPS you do. They are dependent on simply not making unrecoverable mistakes. So it's better for the healer to save their MP for healing if it's going slowly, because burning that MP on DPS is not going to speed it up.

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I missed this earlier but... what? Apparently, you have never heard of speed kill groups or skipping mechanics. I'll give you an example. In Shinryu EX, if DPS is high, you won't see Aerial Blast, period. That's impossible to achieve without healer and tank DPS.

I've skimmed through a lot of this thread, and I think there are two big misconceptions: no player is perfect, and not every healer you encounter will be a "healer main" with a significant amount of experience in all content.

I play healer a lot in non-savage content, and while I love support roles and would play a healer if I was expected to focus only on healing, that's not how it works in this game. I'm not going to queue into content and stand around 90% of the time, waiting for someone to take damage. Sadly, I'm capable of topping the DPS chart as a healer, even on bosses (I said sadly). That contribution matters. If the trash pulls take forever, the tank runs out of TP and cooldowns, the healer runs out of mana, DDs run out of resources. If both DPS are doing great, that's not a problem and I don't really need to be spamming Holy. But there are many new players or simply people who are underperforming for whatever reason. So you, no matter role you play, need to do your best to pick up the slack and help make the run as smooth as possible (and quick! Don't lie to yourself-- you don't want every dungeon to be a 30+ minute endeavor.)

Now, I find balancing between healing and damage to be very fun. I like to push myself. And I'm not perfect! It doesn't happen often, but sometimes I let the tank die. Yes, it happens, and guess what... non-DPSing healers are guilty of this, too. People make mistakes. I've been in groups with very aggressive healers who accidentally let the tank die. From my perspective, I forgive them. They're doing their best to use their entire kit and perform both aspects of their role, but they screwed up. Who hasn't made a mistake? Someone who refuses to cast a single heal and routinely "kills" people when they are a healer isn't going to make it very far or play that role very long. Think about it-- the quick queue isn't worth walking back over and over and over. Accept that a person has made a mistake, and move on. Don't chastise an entire group of people who like to use all of their abilities.

As far as the "mana" argument goes, I run out of mana when I'm having to do a lot of raising and big spot-healing from people making mechanical mistakes, when I'm overhealing a lot, and when I'm not "working with" or respecting my cohealer. Sure, maybe if you're not DPSing, you'll have more resources to use when things go really wrong. But in most content, things shouldn't go that wrong, and in content where things may go totally south, you've already lost to the enrage. There are no reasonable "emergency tactics" that a healer wouldn't have enough mana for if they simply had been DPSing prior to that emergency.

The main problem is the huge gap between healer experience and how comfortable someone is in terms of letting party member's HP drop down. When I started playing, I was always afraid of someone dying, so I permanently kept everyone at full HP all the time. I was afraid of DPSing, because back in the day, when Cleric Stance was a thing, Switching stances could end very very painfully for everyone, if timed poorly.
Developers may have removed the Cleric Stance part, but there is still something of a 'comfort zone' people tend to let HP drop until they start healing, that is not only based on a healer's experience, but also to a certain degree on item level.

The reason this argument exists comes from two different mind sets. One who perfers to play for maximum safety, and the other who instead is focused on the most time-efficient tactics. Not everyone is set on those extremes, but every single healer is going to be somewhere in between them, with enough arguments at hand to support their decision. And again, this can be very much based on a player's experience and also biased by it.

I like raiding savage content, and I got used to DPSing there. So of course, when I'm running i.e Rabanastre or expert roulette... I DPS too. I'll be the first to admit, that this has sometimes lead to wipes or is in fact a handicap if something goes wrong. Because by dealing damage I reduce the amount of errors I can fix, or in the worst of cases even the time required to fix them. Since I use my oGCDs for normally healing my party, I can no longer rely on them in emergency situations, which increases the time I need to handle them appropriately. Does it stop me from DPSing? No. But if someone dies, even by their own mistake, if my personal DPS prevents me from avoiding someone's death, then blame also goes on me.

I understand people who perfer playing safely when grouped up with players they don't know. And I do believe, that by DPSing I compromise my party by reducing the amount of 'error mitigation' I can provide. The whole argument is mainly focused on who is right and who is wrong, when instead everyone should acknowledge the benefits and downsides of their own prefered playing style, since none of them is the default best way to go for any situation.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

With the raids and trials, there is a specific choreography that works individually for them, and they do NOT go any faster regardless of how much DPS you do. They are dependent on simply not making unrecoverable mistakes. So it's better for the healer to save their MP for healing if it's going slowly, because burning that MP on DPS is not going to speed it up.

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This is so incredibly wrong that I am literally speechless.

I think Healers DPSing are fine so long as they don't get too distracted. As long as everyone does their job, NO ONE should be complaining. Healer DPSing but you're still alive and no wipes? Great move on, don't complain!

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

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I'm really confused by this post. I use WHM for all my 70 runs and I never have issues with dpsing and healing...

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Gather two groups, and having DPS burn them down, while Healing the damage to the tank.

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Uuuh. A pull for me generally goes Divine Benison > Eye for an Eye > Regen > Asylum > Cleric Stance+Presence of Mind+Thin Air > Holy > Swiftcast Aero III > Assize > Holy Spam > Tetra > Holy Spam > Bene > Holy/Stone IV/Cure II as needed

It's a complete burn most of the time, regardless of the size of the trash group. Everyone burns the mobs, not just the dps.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

So it's better for the healer to save their MP for healing if it's going slowly, because burning that MP on DPS is not going to speed it up.

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What? Have you ever heard of skipping Soar? I'm completely at a loss at what you're saying. Raids and Trials are bosses, that have a set amount of HP. They aren't just something you survive until you hit a specific time limit. Enrages are a thing for a reason... healers can help beat enrages. Extra DPS is extra DPS. And healers do not need to save MP for healing..

I'm seriously wondering if you even play a healer in the content you are posting about. >_>

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I'm really confused by this post. I use WHM for all my 70 runs and I never have issues with dpsing and healing...



Uuuh. A pull for me generally goes Divine Benison > Eye for an Eye > Regen > Asylum > Cleric Stance+Presence of Mind+Thin Air > Holy > Swiftcast Aero III > Assize > Holy Spam > Tetra > Holy Spam > Bene > Holy/Stone IV/Cure II as needed

It's a complete burn most of the time, regardless of the size of the trash group. Everyone burns the mobs, not just the dps.



What? Have you ever heard of skipping Soar? I'm completely at a loss at what you're saying. Raids and Trials are bosses, that have a set amount of HP. They aren't just something you survive until you hit a specific time limit. Enrages are a thing for a reason... healers can help beat enrages. Extra DPS is extra DPS. And healers do not need to save MP for healing..

I'm seriously wondering if you even play a healer in the content you are posting about. >_>

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I dont really get what she is trying to get at either, but Raid bosses and trials do have hard set mechanics. Basically mechanics that you can't skip unless you instant kill the boss which a regular player obivisiously cannot do.

I experienced this too when I landed into Shinryu in the roulette. Me and the other healer were told to just stop dpsing and only focusing on healing. It was fine with me, and we beat it eventually.

Has anybody else noticed that the healing spells aren't as powerful anymore? I remember I could just cast a regen and that would be enough for a whole pull but I've been finding myself having to heal a lot more often and dps less. It definitely feels different from healing back in Heavensward or ARR.

Maybe the reason you're seeing more "anti-healer dps" sort of attitudes is because of the changes made to healing power.

I'm still definitely pro-healer dps, and I still try to dps as much as I can. But I have noticed that it's not the same anymore. I can't just cast regen and call it a day.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I dont really get what she is trying to get at either, but Raid bosses and trials do have hard set mechanics. Basically mechanics that you can't skip unless you instant kill the boss which a regular player obivisiously cannot do.

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Yes, I get that. But DPS still kills bosses faster. You will see those mechanics faster and the boss will due faster. Which the exact opposite of what she claimed.

@Hunky: The healing spells are fine. We have a lot of oGCD options and mitigation options... I find myself dpsing even more now since they changed Cleric Stance and healer dps to scale off Mind.

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Originally Posted by Hunky

Has anybody else noticed that the healing spells aren't as powerful anymore? I remember I could just cast a regen and that would be enough for a whole pull but I've been finding myself having to heal a lot more often and dps less. It definitely feels different from healing back in Heavensward or ARR.

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No, healing spells are most definitely still OP. If you’re having to heal more, look at the tank: What’s their gear? What’s their cooldown usage look like? How many mobs are they pulling at one time?

On WHM (i350), my Cure II was almost 17,000.
On AST (i350), my Benefic II was over 15,000.
On SCH (i350), my Lustrate was almost 15,000.

Those are just the basic single-target heals.

As a dark knight I don't mind healers tossing in some dps so long as the party stays alive. Only time I don't like it is with whm using holy spam right after I pop blood price stunning the mob or when I use TBN and they use holy. SE needs to fix how holy works with drk BP and TBN skills. In 24 man raids, if I am the MT I do prefer healers heal more for me and the group. It gets old seeing two healers dpsing like crazy and I die to a lack of heals. I generally will say something when that happens. Also if they aren't healing the dps and the dps end up dead to unavoidable damage it is annoying. Dead dps don't do any dps and that is dumb when it is due to a lack of heals. They have one job, heals. If they can and want to toss in some dps as they can, then good. if not, no worries, dps should be doing the dps anyways. Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Gather one group and kill them quickly by everyone DPS'ing
or
Gather two groups, and having DPS burn them down, while Healing the damage to the tank.

What changed with StormBlood is that the developers changed the trash mob pattern so you get ambushed, thus the "drag two groups of mobs together" technique is a guaranteed wipe if you don't know where the ambush is.

Thus as a healer, you might burn more MP trying to recover from a tank that poorly timed their CD's (which guess what, are just long enough so you can't use them twice during trash mobs) , or as a tank, you might have to resort to self-healing if the healer is too busy DPS'ing.

With the raids and trials, there is a specific choreography that works individually for them, and they do NOT go any faster regardless of how much DPS you do. They are dependent on simply not making unrecoverable mistakes. So it's better for the healer to save their MP for healing if it's going slowly, because burning that MP on DPS is not going to speed it up.

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How about gathering 3 to 4 groups and have DPS & healer burn them?

This has nothing to do with gear, I've gone in runs where healers just have the 290 artifact gear and they have no issue keeping me alive while I pull the whole zone before the boss room.

And I'm no Ub3r l33T tank, I'm no LMG pro player or 24/7 world first ultimate clear.
I'm just your average joe player, I just know when I have to press certain keybinds (cooldowns).

Stormblood dungeons changed what? Where's what killer ambush? I never been in a SB dungeon as heal or DPS, always tank (and there was a time where I farmed those SB experts) I pull the entire area before each boss (or split up in 2 occasionally), I've never encountered these killer ambush.
Please tell me how to unlock these harder versions of the experts, maybe they finally make the dungeons fun again.

No offence but I have to ask, have you actually done any raid, trial??
Burning MP on DPS is not going to speed it up... wat?
Maybe I suck at math or something but you have 2 runs, in the first run you have 2 healers each doing 3K DPS. In the second run you have 2 healers each donig 0,00 DPS.
I can tell you which run is going to go MUCH faster.


Have you actually played this game? :s

For me as a WHM it is about balance. My main job is to heal and that is my main focus, but finishing a dungeon/raid/trial with 0 or near 0 dps is unforgivable.
It is very true that depending on the group and what I’m doing I can confortably dps more, comparing with a 24m pug raid where there is a lot of error I tend to hold myself a bit more and heal/overheal more.

Also depends on your partner, again balance, sinergy.. but again whatever you are doing, 0 or near 0 dps, from a healer is inexcusable.

But personally I havent had anyone telling me to heal more or dps more.. there might have been jerk players but it is not the norm and I do a bit of all content including EX trials and Savage.

Your first and most important duty is to heal. You are there for that. If there's someone you could've saved and you didn't because you were dpsing you should take the blame. If a tank is not using cooldowns you can't change that, you cannot change others skill level, the only thing you can do is be a better healer yourself. If someone exploded from 100% to 0% in one second even if you were dpsing it's not your fault, but the same moment you are making runs less safe because you want to DPS then you are not being a good healer. Basically, with pugs, only DPS when the boss is harmlessly autoattacking or when handling mechanics that you know will hardly kill anyone.
Personally, I think a great healer is the one that saves runs and makes up for others' mistakes. The moment you let your NIN die from an unavoidable AOE that you knew was coming like 6 or 7 seconds ago, and that NIN was at 60% of their health because they just came from screwing up a mechanic, and you let the NIN die because you go by the "not my fault they failed a mechanic" when you could've saved them provided you casted a heal on them rather than a couple malefics/broils on the boss, then, you are not a good healer.

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Originally Posted by technole

Requiescat and Holy Sprit is a better use of PLD DPS and MP than Clemency. You don't heal jack compared to how good healer 1-button oGCDs are.

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Clemency has its uses. If you're using it to heal every little scratch and constantly sniping the healer, then by all means, yes, you're wasting your time and MP. When the crap hits the fan though, it can be a life-saver, especially when the healer's already on the floor.

On the topic of the ones who complain about healer DPS due to the stun immunity (especially in Expert): Its not my fault you can't dodge easily avoidable damage, or have no clue how mobs similar to Coincounter or chimeras work if you've seen them before. Mobs that work similar to Coincounter are blatantly obvious just by the ability names alone. Chimeras not so much though, but if they've seen them before, they should probably know by that point. If you're going to outright choose to stand in it because the mob is stun-immune, that's not my problem.

Even on smaller pulls, if I have the option to go 100% DPS uptime and know the mobs will die before the tank gets low enough to be concerned about it, of course I'm going to do that vs. throwing rocks and cures.

MP issues on WHM? They are really only going to happen if the tank is wearing soaking wet tissue paper for armor or people are constantly standing in crap and/or hitting the floor a lot.

Pulling hate? Level 60 or below stuff: Who cares? The majority of trash mobs do like zero damage anyway. I've gotten through entire runs of multiple level 60 dungeons where I would pull hate on
almost every trash pull and we still cleared just fine. SB content: If its going to die before somebody else dies, its not really an issue if it punches me in the face a couple times.

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Originally Posted by Driskus

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This.

Heck, any time your healer's AoE spam will outperform yours, and you've Req and a full MP bar, it can easily be an rDPS gain in speedy content. It's effectively buffed, rather than debuffed, by Shield Oath, pulls massive enmity if it overheals, and hits for a pretty nifty amount (though it'd be a lot better if tanks could just get appropriate right-side throughput scaling...). Meanwhile, Gravity/Holy spam is going to have higher DPS, especially when considering that they're not penalized by Shield Oath, either.

Well to be fair since the introduction of Red Mage healers have been super lazy in many occasions dpsing and a) not paying attention or do not care to heal the team and also raise because Red can surely do it.. and B) do not pay attention to their mana and again assume if a caster is in a group will give mana back to them

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

With the raids and trials, there is a specific choreography that works individually for them, and they do NOT go any faster regardless of how much DPS you do. They are dependent on simply not making unrecoverable mistakes. So it's better for the healer to save their MP for healing if it's going slowly, because burning that MP on DPS is not going to speed it up.

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These words... I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

But really either you've done a very poor job of articulating yourself or you have a very poor understanding of the way this game works. Either way wires are crossed.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Well to be fair since the introduction of Red Mage healers have been super lazy in many occasions dpsing and a) not paying attention or do not care to heal the team and also raise because Red can surely do it.. and B) do not pay attention to their mana and again assume if a caster is in a group will give mana back to them

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But caster should be Mana Shifting their healers, same as a BRD/MCH using Refresh. This has nothing to do with lazy healers and everything to do with properly using role utility for the party.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Basically, with pugs, only DPS when the boss is harmlessly autoattacking or when handling mechanics that you know will hardly kill anyone.

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This thread is a goldmine for completely awful advice.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This thread is a goldmine for completely awful advice.

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It made mention of making efficient use of one's time. Unfortunately in giving one example of such, the words "healer" and "dps" collided. Bad things ensued.

In the practical plane of existence, this was simply their natural, attached state, but in the less direct, and less informed, associative planes...

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Originally Posted by Millen1

As a dark knight I don't mind healers tossing in some dps so long as the party stays alive. Only time I don't like it is with whm using holy spam right after I pop blood price stunning the mob or when I use TBN and they use holy.

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For this, a WHM's Holy spam will always be more effective than a DRK's Blood Price. So if you know your WHM is going to run in and Holy, hold your BP until the stun immunity sets in. Same with TBN.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

But caster should be Mana Shifting their healers, same as a BRD/MCH using Refresh. This has nothing to do with lazy healers and everything to do with properly using role utility for the party.

This thread is a goldmine for completely awful advice.

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And i always do, but had you read what i posted you would see i am talking about healers that just dps either holy or stone 3 spam and run out of mana and in turn do not bother with healing duties.
In this case no they do not deserve mana shift. It is balance like someone said and part of a healers duty to watch their mana

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I play with pugs frequently. The only time mass pulls aren't done is if the tank or healer is undergeared. Having handled those pulls from both perspectives, I can say your assessment is simply wrong. Once you reach Expert dungeons, virtually every single one of them is wall to wall pulls.

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Its easy to wall to wall if the dungeon itself allows you to pull 3 groups at max. xD

Stoormblood dungeons are easy, but still there are instances in each dungeon in which you cant do that or else you end up wiping with a healer that does not heal you all the time.
Like for example in temple of the fist in catacumbs before the last boss there are like 12 groups of mobs, pulling them is not possible.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This.

Heck, any time your healer's AoE spam will outperform yours, and you've Req and a full MP bar, it can easily be an rDPS gain in speedy content. It's effectively buffed, rather than debuffed, by Shield Oath, pulls massive enmity if it overheals, and hits for a pretty nifty amount (though it'd be a lot better if tanks could just get appropriate right-side throughput scaling...). Meanwhile, Gravity/Holy spam is going to have higher DPS, especially when considering that they're not penalized by Shield Oath, either.

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Aaand then the truck breaks into the wall, realising he has only enough mp to use it twice. :p
Not to mention 1 celemcy is about 35% of PLD health, its not going to sustain him in a pull.
Flash and circle of scorn on PLD is more than enough for enmity in pulls.