DPSing as a healer

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Originally Posted by Gemina

~angry, argument free ranting~

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Ok, you just proved my point. Come back when you actually have arguments instead of name-calling (you're doing the very thing you accuse me of doing, btw), I'm not gonna bother replying to you anymore.

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

Ok, you just proved my point. Come back when you actually have arguments instead of name-calling (you're doing the very thing you accuse me of doing, btw), I'm not gonna bother replying to you anymore.

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The person made valid arguments and you just shrugged it off as "ranting"...

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

Yep, the attitude needs to change that striving for improvement of yourself and others and being required to do more than the absolute minimum is "bullying", like you try to say it is. This is part of the reason people in this game are so bad. Nothing requires them to improve by design. There's no real difficulty curve. So now we, the players, should also stop requiring improvement? How about no?

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I'm quoting this old post because I think it's the best example of the kind of discussion that usually happens in this kinda thread.

Dude, we're on the same side, but I kind of agree with Gemina about the attitude thing. I think the whole discussion you two are having is stemming from both of you greatly overreacting to each other's arguments and taking them to an imaginary extreme. You're saying she defends bad players and calls them great, even if they're not, and she probably imagines you flaming everyone who isn't in Cleric Stance 80% of the time.

To make this clear, BOTH of these attitudes are bad. Flaming people for not conforming to the meta doesn't help them, it only probably makes them either angry or miserable, and that kind of encounter with strangers hardly ever leads to any productive learning. I agree that you won't help people get better unless you point out what they do wrong, but there is a little something called TACT, and there are also some people who are SUPER sensitive about this kinda thing, and it will really ruin their day. You say that not pointing these things out encourages bad play, and hell, maybe it does to a certain extent, but the game doesn't need everyone in the world to have an above average level of skill. That's why being good in a game is usually called "above average." Sure, you might run into these people, and sure, it may be annoying, but the content you'll likely play with them isn't as punishing for it to matter that much, so there's really no need to make a big deal out of non-DPS healers not wishing to push the limits of their skill.

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Originally Posted by Zadocfish

Gemina,

You have to remember, in low-level instances, your party will only seldom need healing if your tank has any skill at all. This means you are defending players doing absolutely nothing, or worse, drawing aggro for no reason, while the rest of the group does stuff. That's bad play.

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Crud! I wanted to comment to this too, and entirely left it out. I did not mean to and apologize. I did want to point out that I am aware that there are players who KNOW that they are capable of more than just tossing heals, and abuse that they do not have to contribute to DPS to get a clear. I acknowledge that this is absolutely inexcusable and even deserves to strictly go against the ToA. But how to tell these players from the ones with true anxiety issues? I think this is a big reason why the debates are so strong, and it is so difficult to compromise.

I also think some of the issue stems from what I pointed out earlier: The whole 0% contribution needed to make a clear. While this remains a fact, what this also means is that healers have it the easiest when it comes to contributing 100% of what is needed to make a clear. This leaves A LOT of room to do more than what is required. Trust me, it does not have to be beaten in my head. I know I am capable of more than just heals, but due to my experiences with anxiety, and struggles to feel like I am even worthy of queuing up for a duty, I also greatly understand if a healer is just not comfortable adding offensive magicks to their repertoire. I seriously choked up with the whole Sylphie CNJ quest line because of how much I related to it.

I wish I had a magic lenses that could let us all see the intentions of our healers, but unfortunately I don't. The good and bad wear the same clothing, and I guess my attitude leans more towards not caring so much a player deliberately wants to make things harder, it just makes me better at my own job.

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

Ok, you just proved my point. Come back when you actually have arguments instead of name-calling (you're doing the very thing you accuse me of doing, btw), I'm not gonna bother replying to you anymore.

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Dude, tell that to the people that cleared Gordias lol. /sarcasm Healer DPS not required /endsarcasm. Your statement did not become true until people literally came back with BiS gear or 220+ ilevel. Healer DPS is absolutely required, just not a massive amount. The devs were not that stupid.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Dude, tell that to the people that cleared Gordias lol. Healer DPS not required. Your statement did not become true until people literally came back with BiS gear or 220+ ilevel. Healer DPS is absolutely required, just not a massive amount. The devs were not that stupid.

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Healer DPS was required to complete Gordias Savage before the full i210 level. How about I just ask did you even clear A3S-A4S pre-nerf as a healer?

I think the problem come from the idea that we have of the three roles : DPS role is to do damages ; Tank role is to block damages, protect people, charge on enemy ; and Healer role is to heal teammate.

Here in Eorzea, the fact to dps as healer is the debate.

The thing I want to know is why this question is not ask for the tank ?
That's right, tanks must avoid other party member to be attacked and should focus the attention of the enemy.
This could be like healer, tank could not do dps, except to keep the minimum aggro.

There is a difference here :
Tank is in front of the boss, healer is not.
Tank has a sword or an axe, healer has a book or a scepter.

I think it's like symbol which indicate the fact you can dps (who want to attack with a book ? ^^)
If you put only a shield in the hand of a tank, is he should attack too or not ?

One other thing is 'damage' is opposite to 'heal' somehow. So maybe it's not concevable for some healers to hurt even if it's monsters.

If the Red Mage is a healer, because he is in the front of the boss for both heal and dps and because he has a rapier, he should attack the boss, right ?

The message I want to transmit is because maybe of these symbols, people tends to think which role is appropriate to do things like dps.
If we could have this Red Mage for healer, then these people who are not for the idea that healer have the possibility to dps and etc., maybe they could see they are wrong or still.

But I want to say, when you are capable to see through this game and understand how it's work, then you know it's not about DPS, Tank and Healer. It's about to use all you have at your disposal to make to game easier, faster and be one with him :)

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

I'd say it has less to do with familiarity with content and/or the people you happen to be grouped with and more to do with familiarity and confidence in your job.

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Very reasonable. I might add that for some players, having confidence in themselves can be enough, while for others (like me), knowing the content gives that confidence. You did inspire me though - yesterday I took your advice in HB Hard and gave my (fantastic) WAR tank single HoTs, then allowed myself to DPS the rest of the time. It worked out brilliantly. It helped having a great tank, but it felt good fully trusting myself too.

@Gemina - I'm also a very anxious player, and your sentiments really resounded with me. How we approach other players is critical, especially when they are learning. For my part, I didn't even consider adding DPS as a healer until I saw another healer do it in a dungeon (it was like some kind of obvious epiphany). For me, the example was enough.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

The person made valid arguments and you just shrugged it off as "ranting"...

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Which would be? Nothing in that post was something that hasn't already been disproven multiple times before, by me and others. That's why I'm still waiting for arguments. I haven't seen any that haven't been ripped apart already.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

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The ROOT of the problem is that Healer is a misnomer in this game. This game was designed with "Healer" DPS in mind. (Case in point, Healer DPS was required for Gordias Clears, the Hall of the Novice Training, that Cleric Stance even exists at all)
Yes you are the only class that reliably heal and heal others.

But in this game each healer was designed as a Hybrid. It's the green box and the name "healer" that makes people think they don't need to do DPS.
In reality they should be called "Support" and have a yellow background. Then this whole issue would not even have arisen.

In the game, RIGHT NOW, the game SPECIFICALLY TELLS YOU to DPS when no one needs healing. That's the developers trying to fix the bad players. And yet we still have players arguing that they are good when doing WORSE THAN THE TUTORIAL tells you to do.

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Originally Posted by technole

Healer DPS was required to complete Gordias Savage before the full i210 level. How about I just ask did you even clear A3S-A4S pre-nerf as a healer?

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Check my fflogs and/or achievements bro, just not as a healer. But how do I know healer DPS is needed? because the DPS check was friggin tight with 210 already, it is borderline impossible with no healer DPS in <210.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

Check my fflogs and/or achievements bro, just not as a healer. But how do I know healer DPS is needed? because the DPS check was friggin tight with 210 already, it is borderline impossible with no healer DPS in <210.

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In the quote he took of you the part he's talking about is where you said "Healer DPS not required." in respect to Gordias.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

In the quote he took of you the part he's talking about is where you said "Healer DPS not required." in respect to Gordias.

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I re-edited my original post to make it plain as day

(a) There are players with varying levels of skill of gameplay, these being factors of knowledge, reflexes, timing and predictive capabilities and foresight

Knowledge lets you anticipate the mechanics and react proactively, whether it be applying a sleep / fluid uara to interrupt a mob, a stoneskin to mitigate AoE damage, or to do X, Y, Z mechanic

Judgement and Foresight lets you react appropriately when an unexpected situation arises, making the right decisions at the right time, such as a secondary mob coming to the current pack of mobs; do you sleep it, provoke and shield lob, stun - or if suddenly someone gets a spike critical - do you swiftcast resurrect or do you get ready to dodge the mechanic thats about to turn you into a rock; are your party members going to come closer to you or do they spread out when they take AoE damage. This changes what skills you use at what time.

Reflexes and Timing allows you to make the accurate fine motor movements necessary to press the right button at the right time, the tank might take 2 "ticks" of mobs hitting before they require a heal, a "spike-flat-spike-flat-flat-spike" pattern or whatever is conceptualized automatically when you become adjusted to healing

(b) The end-game goal is open-ended for all players
Nothing in this game requires you to do specifically one thing or another for enjoyment. Not all players care about the dungeon being 20% faster. Not all players need to know that you can save '1,695 gil in repairs' by leveling crafts. Not all players need to know 'A-B-C-X or Y' rotation does 16% more damage than 'A-B-D-C' rotation for X, Y, Z boss since they likely won't ever get to X, Y, Z boss.

(c) Optimal gameplay is not needed in all cases, only in those requiring performance-level gameplay, like dedicated raids.

(d) One should demonstrate some minimum level of consideration for others when playing with a random group.
When people are playing dungeons, they hopefully, and typically seek to clear the dungeon without too many wipes within a reasonable amount of time. Adapt to the needs to the group as long as the objective can be done; big pulls - more heals, small, manageable pulls - a little more proactiveness. In most cases for lower level content, a savings of 3 - 5 minutes can be expected on a 25 - 35 minute run. Most people don't usually notice this anyways as they are busy in a queue or AFK or doing something else while in game. No one is 100% efficient as a player in setting goals and completing those goals. Anyhow, horseplaying and pulling all the mobs or just simply not healing and not damaging mobs is a demonstration of showing no consideration for others towards completing said objective. If someone is at least healing, they are at least contributing. People who have this expectation of being down to the last second in dungeon savings to go on a 16-hour grind on a weekend are unrealistic and need to re-adjust their own expectations, and to see if they are themselves that 'optimally attuned' to achieving their goals - chances are they are not.

With all these factors in mind, at the end of the day, it is the player who decides whether he or she wants to improve his or her level of gameplay to spend less time idling and more time being proactive. Some people enjoy doing a concurrent analysis while playing, positioning of mobs, timing of cooldowns, the proper setup or contingency plan for when X, Y, Z member fails and whatnot - while many also do not. The average level of gameplay or skill that is needed in low level content is not a requirement to be optimal at all times. Players choosing to do group content do have objectives, but realistically, dungeons won't take 1 hours or more (2.5% percentile wise) when everyone is playing at said 'average skill level'. To this end, we don't need to encourage 'not playing at all - or being inconsiderate' nor do we need to make everyone 'optimal raid-master machines that systematically play at the 99.9% percentile level'.

If you can heal and DPS, and you want to be better, then do it.
If you can only heal, and don't have the aptitude or capacity to be better, then it's fine. Just don't expect to do harder content where the standards are higher.
If you see others that heal and DPS and no one is dead, great, they are doing better than average or perceived level of average skill.
If you see others only heal, and everyone is alive, good - they are doing what contributes to the objective of said dungeon, although there is room for improvement, if the player decides they want said improvement. If improvement is necessitated to clear said content, then help the player improve. If the player refuses to improve, great, you can remove them from the group.
If you see others only heal, and someone still dies, and it's not because they are new, and not because the party members decided to stand in orange AoE circles, then give them a few pointers.

Give someone the benefit of the doubt.

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Originally Posted by KitomiSaitichi

nor do we need to make everyone 'optimal raid-master machines that systematically play at the 99.9% percentile level'.

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Literally no one is saying that ever.
You've literally missed the entire point.

All we have asked is to be at least as good as the Hall of the Bloody Novice is asking you to be. That is the minimum level for "average". Below that is terrible. End of story.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

All we have asked is to be at least as good as the Hall of the Bloody Novice is asking you to be. That is the minimum level for "average". Below that is terrible. End of story.

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This. All we're asking people is to be better than a computer controlled pet, because frickin' Selene can heal almost all dungeons in this game on her own provided the tank doesn't do massive pulls. If you're playing on the level of a fairy, you're being carried, there's really no other way to put it.

Maybe I missed a few posts because I don't recall seeing any asking. Just basically dps as a healer or be called lazy, selfish, bad, etc. Or be told to change your role because you don't want to stance dance. Despite the fact it's not mandatory Personally, I have zero problem with dpsing as a healer. I dps whenever I can. But if I see another healer not dpsing? Oh well, it's not the end of the world. If they're keeping the party alive, that's my primary concern.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Maybe I missed a few posts because I don't recall seeing any asking. Just basically dps as a healer or be called lazy, selfish, bad, etc. Or be told to change your role because you don't want to stance dance. Despite the fact it's not mandatory Personally, I have zero problem with dpsing as a healer. I dps whenever I can. But if I see another healer not dpsing? Oh well, it's not the end of the world. If they're keeping the party alive, that's my primary concern.

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You missed many posts I think. And they ARE bad if they're not even up to the Hall of the Novice level. Performing at the Hall of the NOVICE tutorial level is the minimum level we should expect. If you cannot, pick another class or another game. No other class can perform worse than that and not get kicked. But that stupid green icon and "healer" makes everyone get their underwear in a knot when they're asked to do the ACTUAL minimum THAT THE GAME ITSELF ASKS YOU TO.

But it's not JUST here in the forums we're asking.
Two days ago, when I did EX Roulette, I asked if the Healer could please use Cleric Stance.
His response:
"Nah, I'm lazy"

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

"Nah, I'm lazy"

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Maybe he was tired or just woke up? You guys make a mountain out of a molehill. Maybe it's a cultural thing, who knows, but personally I don't even pay attention to what healers are doing when I'm DPSing, as long as I'm alive. Too focused on doing my thing to bother with others.

All this "pick another class or another game" makes me think of players who leave clear parties after first wipe. He paid the same as you for the game, bad or good the player has the right to play whatever he wants, as long as he strives to improve. Be a little less arrogant and maybe people won't answer "Nah, I'm lazy" when you tell them what to do.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

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Yes, the hall of novice asks you to. But that does NOT mean it's mandatory. It will not decide whether or not you will live or die in the dungeon. It does not say if you don't dps, your entire party will wipe. I don't understand why something so little is such a major deal to some people. As I stated, a bad healer is someone that doesn't do their PRIMARY role. Not their secondary. If the person doesn't want to dps, so what? Just move on, it's not going to kill you. But apparently that seems to be way too difficult. Also, so over that one instance, that means every healer that doesn't dps is lazy? Of course not. There could be numerous reasons. Personally it's none of my business anyways. I'm just going to say this:
People play at their own pace, if they're going to dps as a healer, they will do so when they are comfortable. However long that takes. No amount of rants and insults will change that.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Maybe I missed a few posts because I don't recall seeing any asking. Just basically dps as a healer or be called lazy, selfish, bad, etc. Or be told to change your role because you don't want to stance dance. Despite the fact it's not mandatory Personally, I have zero problem with dpsing as a healer. I dps whenever I can. But if I see another healer not dpsing? Oh well, it's not the end of the world. If they're keeping the party alive, that's my primary concern.

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Yup, exactly. At no point have I felt like I need to perform at an optimal 99.9% level, 100% of the time. It's being made to feel lazy, selfish, bad and carried if I choose to only heal. I don't see any asking either, I see a lot of barking from pushers telling their healers what to do. I've been in plenty of groups where the healer only heals. It has literally never been a problem getting clears within a reasonable amount of time. I've had more issues getting clears when the healer is DPSing since they cannot reliably do both duties. Doing both takes a reasonable amount of skill, and not everyone possesses this skill. Sorry pushers, that's just the way it is, and why devs will never require healer DPS contribution in casual or story mode content.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

You missed many posts I think. And they ARE bad if they're not even up to the Hall of the Novice level. Performing at the Hall of the NOVICE tutorial level is the minimum level we should expect. If you cannot, pick another class or another game. No other class can perform worse than that and not get kicked. But that stupid green icon and "healer" makes everyone get their underwear in a knot when they're asked to do the ACTUAL minimum THAT THE GAME ITSELF ASKS YOU TO.

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You can clear HoN using only heals. I know because I just did it. So by your definition these players are not bad. HoN is seriously taken out of context.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Doing both takes a reasonable amount of skill, and not everyone possesses this skill. Sorry pushers, that's just the way it is...

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Yes, but that just makes one a bad healer. I'm convinced that 'Healer' is a bad name for the role the same way 'Tank' is, they seem to carry the association that these roles don't have an offensive aspect to them. A good player should be able to use all the tools provided to them in an efficient manner. If one does not, they are objectively a bad player, regardless if the reason is anxiety, laziness, pride or incompetence.

So would people be okay with a tank who grabbed hate then did nothing but auto attack?

He has hate, he's doing his job right?

What about a DPS who just pressed buttons at random and never used buffs?

They're doing damage, so they're fine, definitely not bad or lazy at all.

Sure people are entitled to play however they want in solo play, but in groups, you should be expected to do the bare minimum. If you refuse, well then fine, but don't expect people to be nice to you about it. You will be called lazy and bad-because that's exactly what you are being.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You can clear HoN using only heals. I know because I just did it. So by your definition these players are not bad. HoN is seriously taken out of context.

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I can clear HoN without oGCDs in DRG, whats your point? Would you rather I not use any oGCDs on my DRG in dungeons too cuz thats the minimum required?

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

So would people be okay with a tank who grabbed hate then did nothing but auto attack?

He has hate, he's doing his job right?

What about a DPS who just pressed buttons at random and never used buffs?

They're doing damage, so they're fine, definitely not bad or lazy at all.

Sure people are entitled to play however they want in solo play, but in groups, you should be expected to do the bare minimum. If you refuse, well then fine, but don't expect people to be nice to you about it. You will be called lazy and bad-because that's exactly what you are being.

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My expectation of tank: Willingness to learn mechanics if they don't know them. Lead the charge. Control the pace. Keep ugly mobs off of me. Try your best to avoid avoidable damage. *commendation earned
My expectation of DPS: Willingness to learn mechanics if they don't know them. Respect the tank's pace. Kill ugly mobs trying to kill the tank. Try your best to avoid avoidable damage. *commendation earned

There is only one role in this game that I expect to DPS and it belongs to the DPS classes of this game. From my experience, it takes a whole lot more than tanks and healers not contributing to DPS to seriously make things bad news. And I invite you to look at those expectations I listed above. It really isn't difficult to differentiate between players who indeed are doing only what is required, and those that are REALLY screwing things up. I have always struggled with clears when players do not perform their PRIMARY role in a group. i.e healers who don't heal, tanks who don't tank, and DPS who put up lousy numbers.

I can't be bothered monitoring if a tank is using CD's and switching stances. You know what I do notice though? When a tank decides to feed a mountain buster to the entire group. If the DPS check is met, I don't care how a DPS member goes about doing it. What I do notice? When they eat AoE like they're free donuts, because nothing reduces their DPS output more than taking a dirt nap. I am too busy focusing on my own duties to worry about what everyone else doing. I notice bad playing, when it's truly bad, because it is truly making things more difficult, and forcing the other members of the group to work harder. This does not happen when a healer does not DPS. No one has to contribute more DPS because the healer isn't doing it.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

I can clear HoN without oGCDs in DRG, whats your point? Would you rather I not use any oGCDs on my DRG in dungeons too cuz thats the minimum required?

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The point is right there in what you quoted, but it might help if you actually read the post from the poster I quoted, instead of just mine which you clearly did since you missed the point. Poster stated that players are bad if they can't perform at the HoN level. So I went and cleared it using only heals.

As for you, as long as your killing stuff and not yourself, you're a-ok in my book. I'm not going to tell you how to play YOUR job.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The point is right there in what you quoted, but it might help if you actually read the post from the poster I quoted, instead of just mine which you clearly did since you missed the point. Poster stated that players are bad if they can't perform at the HoN level. So I went and cleared it using only heals.

As for you, as long as your killing stuff and not yourself, you're a-ok in my book. I'm not going to tell you how to play YOUR job.

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I'm not sure you understand how bad it is for a DRG to not use any oGCDs but OK let me rephrase. What if I did not use any cooldowns as a tank (including the stance btw)? since thats the bare minimum to pass HoN.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Poster stated that players are bad if they can't perform at the HoN level. So I went and cleared it using only heals.

As for you, as long as your killing stuff and not yourself, you're a-ok in my book. I'm not going to tell you how to play YOUR job.

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I said if they can't perform at the level the Hall of the Novice TELLS you to that makes them terrible.
I didn't say only pass it or that passing the Hall of the Novice was enough.

I don't understand the sheer amount of effort spent to justify being bad at being a Healer.

The game tells you what the minimum expectation of a Healer is. You want me to ask? Fine:

Can you please stop justifying bad play, stop justifying playing worse than SE suggests in the Hall of the Novice, and please start being a better "Healer" and helping others be better healers.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

I'm not sure you understand how bad it is for a DRG to not use any oGCDs but OK let me rephrase. What if I did not use any cooldowns as a tank (including the stance btw)? since thats the bare minimum to pass HoN.

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And I think you are misunderstanding me. Being able to clear HoN only using heals is about as a great a feat as tying my shoes. But not everyone on this planet has an easy time tying their shoes do they? But they still have the right to wear them, would you agree? My point towards that other poster is that HoN is taken out of context. Don't let that counter any previous arguments of mine because it was a direct response to the other poster stating that players are bad if they can't perform at the HoN requirement. But the requirement to pass it is the bare minimum. DPSing in this instance only makes it go faster assuming you keep the tank and DPS NPCs alive, which IS what is required to pass it. They fall, you fail. This VERY same thing translates into most of the content in this game.

tl;dr HoN is irrelevant in determining player skill, and it is NOT telling healers to DPS. It encourages it. To take things further, despite the game telling you this, HoN gives you very little time to DPS. The incoming dmg in the final instance is actually quite considerable much like it is in the second or third tutorial (can't remember which) which has you constantly healing in order to pass it. HoN by FAR tells your ass to heal first, DPS second more than anything.

If you look up my lodestone, you will see that I don't even have lancer unlocked. So of course I don't understand how bad it is for DRG to not use oGCDs. I know nothing about your job so I am going to be the last person to tell you how to play it. What I do know is that your role in my party is DPS, and my expectations of you pertain to that role, not your job. I understand that if you optimize your job, you optimize your role in party play. S long as your DMG output is good enough to meet checks, you're attentive to attacking the appropriate target, and generally stay out of AoE (I know we all get hit by it here and there), that is all I require. And i will consider you a good player. But if you do MORE than that. You optimize field position, timed jumps, combo execution and also add a little touch of your own spice to end something brilliant? You're Kain Highwind to me. And I most certainly do not expect everyone to be Kain, but appreciate those who strive to be.

Bad players to me deliberately eff sh*t up. They go into instances knowing that they can do actually LESS than what is required because they know at least one player will pick up their slack, and carry them through. I mean this is seriously really crappy behaviour. I believe it should be a banable offense. But to label a healer who doesn't DPS this kind of player? The mere thought of it is just so ridiculous to me. smh.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

I said if they can\\'t perform at the level the Hall of the Novice TELLS you to that makes them terrible.
I didn\\'t say only pass it or that passing the Hall of the Novice was enough.

I don\\'t understand the sheer amount of effort spent to justify being bad at being a Healer.

The game tells you what the minimum expectation of a Healer is. You want me to ask? Fine:

Can you please stop justifying bad play, stop justifying playing worse than SE suggests in the Hall of the Novice, and please start being a better "Healer" and helping others be better healers.

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I know what you said. You don't have to repeat it. You even reiterated, in which case I will say again that I cleared HoN using only heals.

On the contrary, I don't understand the amount of energy that you're putting into requiring what isn't required to progress in this game. The game's minimum requirement of a healer is to heal, not DPS. That's YOUR requirement. Seriously. Why don't you guys just own up to that? I can at least respect that. You guys are seriously making the issue WAY bigger than it has to be.

I don't justify bad play. We just have a very different definition of what bad play is.

Man, if some people here even spent as much effort trying to learn about how to balance using all of their skills instead of making long-winded posts on the forums justifying their decision to only use about half of their toolkit, we wouldn't even need this thread.

That said, I do agree over the idea that healer DPS only really exists because this game doesn't really pressure the healers at all outside of raid content. Not only that, but the moment the devs actively try to make non-raid content harder, you get swaths of the community from all three roles reacting negatively to it somehow. People will say they like that the game is becoming harder, while simultaneously avoiding queuing for said content any more than necessary because they don't want to compromise with a community that refuses to learn and takes any suggestion as a personal insult. I can't be the only one that noticed how far less people are queuing up for Trial Roulette now ever since Nidhogg became a thing, to the point where queuing as DPS these days results in near instant pops.

If people could just understand that others play differently than they do. That trying to justify insulting, controlling, and and making people feel like crap over something that isn't even mandatory..that is so little, that barely affects a dungeon isn't a good idea. This thread wouldn't be needed. As I keep saying, if a healer is going to dps. Let them do it at their own pace, calling them out on the forums and insulting them by calling them lazy, bad, etc isn't going to make them do it quicker. It will probably just discourage them even more. If people truly wanted to help those healers become better. They wouldn't be insulting them on the forums to begin with. You don't help people by making them feel like crap. At least I don't.

Please understand that calling people lazy is directed at those people who choose to leave this very relevant and powerful part of their toolkit unused. They choose not to bring a significant benefit to their party and thus they choose to hinder both their own and their party's performance. Just like a tank who doesn't use their defensive cooldowns, a bard who doesn't sing and a DD who doesn't use their damage increasing abilities. They are people who are deliberately choosing not to help their party members in a situation where they could. Like this person I met in an easy dungeon:

http://i.imgur.com/t2h4Cav.png

What is this if not being lazy and offensive towards your team mates?

It's an entirely different story if a healer wants to be useful and helpful and is learning to be better. And I haven't seen any negative attitudes here or in game directed at those people. At the same time, saying "it's fine to just heal" is dishonest and bad advice to anyone who is trying to learn a healer job and play it well, so there's a good reason to shoot that kind of disinformative advice down.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The game's minimum requirement of a healer is to heal, not DPS. That's YOUR requirement.

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Just gonna throw in that it's also not required to mitigate any damage that doesn't oneshot you, or to do more DPS than what is needed to finish a fight/duty within a DPS check or time limit. Surely you don't mind 90 minute expert runs? After all that's the minimum requirement to clear them.

careful you don't get booted before the end boss of steel vigil HM hehe

every single move is avoidable, so a non-dpsing healer would actually do... nothing :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gemina

No one has to contribute more DPS because the healer isn't doing it.

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Um, you may want to rethink this statement, because that is EXACTLY what it means when a healer doesn't DPS, that other people will have to do extra. XD

If a healer chooses to have a non-DPS oriented play style, then they can keep their non-DPS oriented play style until they are doing minimum iLvL progression-type content. While it may be their preferred style of playing, please understand that a heal-only healers are considered lazy because they are doing absolutely nothing in their downtime, which means they are not only less active in the fight but contributing less due to offering nothing but their presence and occasional healing.

While it is not necessary to be playing in a more advanced play style that is more intricate (defensive utility, displacement, crowd-control--to some extent, look at PVP--and DPSing) than simply healing only , please understand that doing nothing in healing related down time means there is zero contribution to the objective in that time frame, thus meaning three things:

- Inefficient usage of time
- Inefficient usage of resources
- Inefficient play style

"That's nice, but I still do not have to DPS whatsoever. It is not mandatory. We can complete the instance without me DPSing at all." That is not what I am trying to say. What I am saying is that the play style is inefficient and perceived as lazy, and by association, the player healing in that style is inefficient and lazy (you are in control of what you do, so I think this is pretty safe assumption).

But yeah, at the end of the day: "you do you." No healer is required to DPS when at the expected-unknown iLvL (gear check in progression content). But if the group's DPS is lacking and not 100% and cannot find any new members? Well... It is time to change your play style, especially if you have the power to change a potential enrage/wipe from a fail to a win via healing AND damage.

P.S: Level 60 White Mages with 0 DPS are pure trash because 0 DPS means 0 Assizes. Or they just were not in range, which then honestly makes me question how they are as a player even more.

To all who claim that healing is your job and nothing else, I ask you, where is that written? Is it in the tooltips? Active help? Serious question.

I think you all just take it for granted that green icon means healing spells and nothing else, but as a scholar I know my toolkit is about 40% healing 40% Dps and 20% situational pet buffs. So if I assume that healing is my only job, I limit myself to less than half my toolkit.

Do you really think it's okay to use less than half my given skills less than half the time and just stand there the rest of the time? In the case of low level dungeons, should I be able to /follow and afk because literally the fairy can do it all by herself? Is that fair at all to the other people playing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

To all who claim that healing is your job and nothing else, I ask you, where is that written? Is it in the tooltips? Active help? Serious question.

I think you all just take it for granted that green icon means healing spells and nothing else, but as a scholar I know my toolkit is about 40% healing 40% Dps and 20% situational pet buffs. So if I assume that healing is my only job, I limit myself to less than half my toolkit.

Do you really think it's okay to use less than half my given skills less than half the time and just stand there the rest of the time? In the case of low level dungeons, should I be able to /follow and afk because literally the fairy can do it all by herself? Is that fair at all to the other people playing?

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Literally the only thing written about Healers and their role is in the Hall of the Novice and it bloody tells you to DPS when no one needs healing.