I think its time BRD get some loving

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Originally Posted by Izsha

-snip-

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Again you keep going on about balance, you have yet to prove that the suggestions in this thread would do any harm to the balance of either the classes, party composition or game in general. All your claims about balance is simply being afraid to rock the boat. SE rocks that boat with every single hot fix and patch already and like with those minor changes the game remains unbroken in most cases (perhaps hunts being the exception at the moment but that's not related to class changes).

Need I remind you also that a lot of the content in this game was added for the sole purpose of fluffy feel goods by the way. Things added not because if did not have it the game would crumple and die but because a lot of that content made people feel better about playing the game. Let me also remind you this boat is going to be rocked beyond perhaps your comprehension when 3.0 comes out, one tiny alteration to one debuff is not going to change that.

It's not about rocking th e boat. It's about changing only when it's necessary. You have yet to prove to me how buffing drg movement speed by 10% unbalances the game. Or how buffing war damage by 5% unbalances the game.

And I did already tell you. Because it risks unforseen concequences. And a risk for what gain? None. SE has stated that they are quite happy with the current job distribution participating in content with the exception of smn. Their goal is to have roughly equal participation rates between jobs and the only time they have acted is wheb that distribution becomes unbalanced. You want a feel good buff. SE gives distribution adjustment buffs.

Distribution is based on #s. It's measurable. It's a defensible position. I wanna hit harder is not.

You want more feel goods? Hildibrand is over there. You want to have combat class balance adjustments? You better come with a reason.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

But how would removal or changing the debuff type on your bard trivialize another classes mana management? Their mana management would not be impacted by you having the % damage debuff decreased, removed or replaced with another form of debuff when playing songs.

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If I didn't have the damage penalty, I'd be singing it in more circumstances outside of the healer's mana falling below a certain threshold. If I could keep the healers above 85% mp the entire fight without any repercussion, why not? You could say that I wouldn't be able to sing in case of an emergency, but if it comes to that point even after a full uptime of ballad that's another concern on the healers themselves.

Not just coil (though it's still a major factor), even though dungeons are already steamrolly enough as it is, the pauses inbetween trash pulls and the lowered consumption of ballad is nearly a 100% uptime.

I agree with you Snuggle. I don't see the problem with taking away debuff. Once again, there was not one person in this entire thread that said BRD needs a buff. They are saying..wait for it......read it nice and slow......that they think the penalty is getting to harsh and either needs to be removed or adjusted. That is not an unreasonable request. Everybody talking about balance...this game isn't really that balanced. In order for them to make the game more balanced, they need to add more roles. They have to. Your job should specialize in one role. If SE wants a support role, create one. What they are doing with the roles is the same thing they did with the whole class/job combo. And as you can see, we are moving away from classes and on to jobs.

SE needs to take a look at other roles that can be added to balance not only party composition, but also help to balance gameplay when fighting. In this instance, either BRD should be a Healer with low ability to DPS, or DPS with low ability to heal/support. Trying to do both is cheating this job because of their trinity, its killing this game.

And I'm sorry, in almost every fantasy game, book or movie, Archers are DPS. Lol. You don't see Legolas running around playing a harp while his arrows fall harmlessly to the ground after striking an enemy. Actually, Archers are like the snipers of fantasy land. Support...yeah....they can support by sniping and killing stuff while hidden and far away with one hit. If they wanted a BRD in this game, shouldn't give it a bow and arrow for a weapon. sorry...SE dropped the ball on this one.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

It's not about rocking the boat.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Because it risks unforseen concequences.

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Seems to me you do not know what rocking the boat means and how it applies to your argument which contradicts itself.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

You have yet to prove to me how buffing drg movement speed by 10% unbalances the game. Or how buffing war damage by 5% unbalances the game.

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Show me a thread where lots of people are asking for those things then it 'might' become relevant to this discussion in my opinion. My argument is two fold, firstly is that there is evidence that a lot of people are asking for something (neither of your examples seem to have such or you have failed to link such) and secondly that it would not unbalance or damage the game to give them the things being suggested or at least take into consideration what is suggested in this thread.

You are also apparently under the misconception that I have to appease you or convince you of anything. My participation in this thread was for the original goal of letting SE know I would appreciate the change along with many others asking for such and expressing a belief it would do them no harm to make the changes, something no-one has proved to be wrong so far in here in my opinion (some here might believe differently but that is their opinion not mine). A lot of those people have been extremely hyperbolic and melodramatic in their opposition.

All these additional tangents and discussions are for my own amusement since my original post and original comment was towards SE while these later ones were for my additional (optional) entertainment in further debating with others. You seem to have decided you are the gatekeeper of any of SE changes to classes, demanding literally that people prove themselves to you in some twisted way like you think you get to decide what SE does or does not listen to, think about or act upon. Let me assure you that is not the case...SE are more than capable of making their own minds up, listening to people and acting on peoples suggestions if agree with them.

You don't have to appease me. But I share the same position that se has repeatedly supported with their actions.

They only act when job participation becomes skewed or 'unbalanced'. That's why war got buff. Bard got nerfed. Melee got buffed. Blm got buffed. Drg for buffed. They are planning smn buffs. SE reactively adjusts jobs based on their participation rates. That's it. That is all they have ever done.

You seem to think that because you wanna hit harder they will see the great error in their ways and buff bard.

SE is quite aware how touchy buffs and nerfs are to games, so instead of just taking requests and randomly doling out buffs and nerfs at the whim of the crowd, they only make adjustments when unbiased justification is revealed. Data. Specifically job participation data.

I side with logic and data. There is no data to support a bard adjustment at this time. And that is how a company running an game with hundreds of thousands of players all with opinions of their own intelligently operates. They cannot simply bend to every little whim of a fickle and diverse player base so they react only to irrefutable data.

If you really think bard need such help then not playing it is the most effective way to convince se it needs help.

SE'S policy isn't just buff. It's to buff when data demonstrates a buff is needed. Evidence. Proof. Data. Justification. Defensible. I wanna do more damage is none of these.

I agree with SE'S policy because arbitrary adjustments are a recipe for disaster in the long run. This is an arbitrary adjustment. It is irrelivant if it has minimal or large effects on balance. It's bad policy.

Have you posted any reason why you think it wouldn't do any harm? I mean, if it didn't do any harm than it must not do much harm at its current value so hope would that make you even enjoy the game more so than you already do?

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

Have you posted any reason why you think it wouldn't do any harm?

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I have many times already.

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

I mean, if it didn't do any harm than it must not do much harm at its current value so hope would that make you even enjoy the game more so than you already do?

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That did not make much sense but if I interpreted it correctly at least the point you was trying to make I assume then my answer is it does not do a lot of harm but it is an annoyance and with any annoyance it is beneficial for a persons enjoyment if that annoyance was gone. Reducing, removing or even replacing the debuff from a percent damage debuff to another form of debuff I would be okay with. Doing so would increase my enjoyment of the class and would do no harm to the other classes or group composition.

Unfortunately for you, you haven't posted any relevant reasons nor have you done any content that makes me believe that you can notice what the debuff does to your damage. If you've been trolling this would make sense however I believe that's not the case and I believe that you're continuing the trend of unnecessary complaining. Post something that would give a dev a reason to think about it because you saying that it makes the game more enjoyable for you is laughable.

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Originally Posted by QiLymePye

Once again, there was not one person in this entire thread that said BRD needs a buff. They are saying..wait for it......read it nice and slow......that they think the penalty is getting to harsh and either needs to be removed or adjusted. That is not an unreasonable request. Everybody talking about balance...this game isn't really that balanced.

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How does removing or lowering the damage penalty not = a buff...........? And yes, this game is pretty balanced. One of the most balanced I've ever played. It's not perfect.

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

Unfortunately for you, you haven't posted any relevant reasons nor have you done any content that makes me believe that you can notice what the debuff does to your damage.

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I have posted many relevant reasons throughout this thread and your feigned ignorance about whether I understand what the debuff actually does to my DPS output given my very reasonable, fairly extensive experience playing bard gives me reason to ignore you from now on if that is the level of discussion you are aiming for in your last comment.

EDIT: Since hit daily limit on posts I will leave this addition here.

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Originally Posted by SlyRoyale

You clearly know nothing that's noteworthy if you have to resort to falsely accusing someone playing ignorance card in a very hypocritical fashion.

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I know how to play the class. I tend to get praised a lot for my competence on the class within the groups I have been a part of whether the groups are for 8-man content, 24-man content or 4-man content. Not a single person I have played with has complained about my ability to play the class and you have no basis for claiming I do not know how to play it outside of your own personal bias on the topic of whether or not you agree to bards benefiting from a change to the debuff. As for saying she/he feigned ignorance...that was either true, was trolling/baiting or she/he is incredibly naive. Read what the person said and apply some common sense instead of agreeing with the stupidity of the persons comment simply out of personal bias.

Just because you agree with his/her stance of bards not needing a buff does not mean his/her comment was not ignorant (whether purposefully so or not). Anyone who has played bard and has both reached the level of unlocking the skills applicable alongside making use of those skills many times of which I have in completion of half a dozen coils, completion of few EX trials and all 24-man raid content alongside every normal and hard mode dungeon a vast amount of times knows exactly how the debuff works, knows exactly how it impacts their DPS and just because I haven't had the free time to log in and do more coils does not mean I do not know a) how to play the class or b) not know how the debuff affects my DPS. To claim such is ignorant.

So many people think removing debuff =/= buff.

GUYS ITS A BUFF.

If we removed the pacification 5s from beserk from warrior, its a buff.....

A buff doesnt only mean more potency etc etc.
If I remove negative side effects to something, its a buff.

The whole point is that songs are very strong, and therefore needs counterbalance (20% penalty for ballad,army)

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

given my very reasonable, fairly extensive experience playing bard gives me reason to ignore you from now on if that is the level of discussion you are aiming for in your last comment.

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What extensive experience? WoD? You seem like a child who, when given a reason why they can't and shouldn't be given something, pouts and shuts out ppl who are the cause of them being upset. Just accept the debuff and BV the debuffed songs so you don't have to play them as long. It's pretty simple to get over.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

People are asking bards to be 5% less dps then monks. With bard 100% dps upkeep and lining burst properly you will beat everyone else. You want more dps fine but when you move you should get a 30% dmg debuff for til you stand still for 3 seconds.

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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Git gud and learn3read please. People said FIVE WEAPON DAMAGE

NOT FIVE PERCENT HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Sorry but to join the below persons to laugh at you.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

rofl :D

/10char

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

http://i.imgur.com/vK5mXkf.gif

...to all of that.

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Originally Posted by dice137

https://colourfulsound.files.wordpre...reac-dcoa.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

stuff

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You clearly know nothing that's noteworthy if you have to resort to falsely accusing someone playing ignorance card in a very hypocritical fashion.

If you are complaining about their damage being low the issue lies within yourself and others like you. Know how to rotate your cooldowns, recognize when is the best time to play your resource songs, whether to prioritize one of them over Foe Requiem if absolutely necessary, making the most out of your auto-attacks with acute Barrage timings and making sure to face the target... In short: learn how to play the role instead of crying for a buff and trying to support your argument with hollow excuses.

BRDs are fine where they are. They don't need a buff, especially with Heavensward coming soon where we'll possibly see new utilities and a possible revamp of the game. Don't like it? Your aiming accessories go well with NINs right now. Don't play BRD if you want to deal more damage.

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

So I guess your NIN doing your goad isn't running out of tp himself. BRD is very vital to maximizing the capability as well as the room for error a party has. If you don't think BRD's can do similar numbers maybe you should look at some threads in other forums. Just as its necessary for a BRD to be in a party for melee/mage classes to maximize dps, it's only fair for a BRD to have a DRG. There are parses out there of BRD's doing 500dps in T13 and 530dps+ in T10-12. Just because parses of other jobs doing those numbers is more common doesn't mean BRD isn't also capable. Ppl just need to learn how to maximize their dps and not whine about it.

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Bards doing that much DPS means everyone else is pretty bad.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

Bards doing that much DPS means everyone else is pretty bad.

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How does a bard doing good dps in a run mean everyone else in the party was doing bad? Doing more damage doesn't magically make everyone perform worse. If anything, its more likely that everyone in the group was performing well and the bard was not having to sing paeon/ballad.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

Bards doing that much DPS means everyone else is pretty bad.

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But it doesn't. mfw reading your post:
http://hotmeme.net/media/mememaker/d...dodge-doaj.jpg

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

How does a bard doing good dps in a run mean everyone else in the party was doing bad?

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DPS is calculated with damage, boss HP, and fight time.

For a bard to do 500 in T13, the melee are probaly barely cracking 400, SCH not attacking much, and OT probally also using VIT accessories, and maybe has a SMN instead of BLM.

How to "fix bard"

-Give us a DPS limit break

-Reduce mana ticks for songs

-Keep the 20% damage reduction for Mana and TP songs... but reduce the damage penalty the longer it stays up. For example, Ballad originally starts with a 20% reduction to damage, after 10 seconds it drops to 15%, another 10 seconds it drops to 10% until it eventually caps out at 5% damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

-Reduce mana ticks for songs

-Keep the 20% damage reduction for Mana and TP songs... but reduce the damage penalty the longer it stays up. For example, Ballad originally starts with a 20% reduction to damage, after 10 seconds it drops to 15%, another 10 seconds it drops to 10% until it eventually caps out at 5% damage reduction.

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So basically let Bards have songs up permanently and only 5% damage decrease...

You know what? Defiance and Shield Oath also shouldn't give such a severe damage penalty because reasons.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

So basically let Bards have songs up permanently and only 5% damage decrease...

You know what? Defiance and Shield Oath also shouldn't give such a severe damage penalty because reasons.

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How would songs stay up permanently? they require mana, even with reduced ticks it would still run out shortly after receiving 5% damage reduction.

Using Tanks in your example makes no sense.. they are "tanks" they aren't there to produce damage but rather soak damage... as apposed to Bards being classified as "DPS"

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

How would songs stay up permanently? they require mana, even with reduced ticks it would still run out shortly after receiving 5% damage reduction.

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Going by your numbers a Bard singing songs would reach 5% damage penalty after 30 seconds. My i90 1800ish MP Bard can sing Paeon for 1 minute before running out of MP (Ballad lasts longer of course). So using current mana costs 50% duration of the song would have them at 5%. This is before we even reduce mana ticks.

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

Using Tanks in your example makes no sense.. they are "tanks" they aren't there to produce damage but rather soak damage... as apposed to Bards being classified as "DPS"

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Oh, I can pull out plenty of reasons out of my rear as to why tank damage shouldn't be so nerfed that are just as valid as the reasons being given for why Bards "need" a buff.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

DPS is calculated with damage, boss HP, and fight time.

For a bard to do 500 in T13, the melee are probaly barely cracking 400, SCH not attacking much, and OT probally also using VIT accessories, and maybe has a SMN instead of BLM.

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Uhhh, what? The higher the DPS, the shorter a fight will last. If a BRD is breaking 500 DPS, that means the rest are arguably around 550 to 600 (maybe lower if mechanics are a pain to deal with). They probably have a DRG or at least a NIN as the 2nd melee DPS, too. The SCH would probably be pushing some decent DPS, too, and the OT should be wearing either melded or STR accessories to help make the fight shorter (we're talking WARs that push 300+ by stance dancing). By claiming that high BRD DPS means everyone else is underperforming is baseless conjecture which doesn't belong in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by SlyRoyale

Uhhh, what? The higher the DPS, the shorter a fight will last. If a BRD is breaking 500 DPS, that means the rest are arguably around 550 to 600 (maybe lower if mechanics are a pain to deal with). They probably have a DRG or at least a NIN as the 2nd melee DPS, too. The SCH would probably be pushing some decent DPS, too, and the OT should be wearing either melded or STR accessories to help make the fight shorter (we're talking WARs that push 300+ by stance dancing). By claiming that high BRD DPS means everyone else is underperforming is baseless conjecture which doesn't belong in this discussion.

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I apologize. Analyzed it and I would probably hit 500 or very close with DRG+NIN instead of MNK and using pots.

And it isn't baseless. If you or anyone in your group uses a parsor you can test it. If you have good Sch that does 200+ and WAR that does 250 ish, you can easily see other classes DPS drop acordingly.

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

-Give us a DPS limit break

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Sadly we are already getting it... And I for one am not happy about it. Would be nice if we get the option of either-either though. I've used it plenty of time to save runs so yes I prefer the heal LB we have now.

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-Keep the 20% damage reduction for Mana and TP songs... but reduce the damage penalty the longer it stays up. For example, Ballad originally starts with a 20% reduction to damage, after 10 seconds it drops to 15%, another 10 seconds it drops to 10% until it eventually caps out at 5% damage reduction.

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Why do people have serious issues with the penalty? The only time it's really relevant is during learning - once you have some understanding of the fight you will know when you can and can't sign to optimize your DPS. That is also part of your job. To know when to do it. A DPS check coming up? Foe would be good but healers will need MP soon - judge if you can do a 30s burst of singing before the check or wait until after - manage your limited MP as well.

People need TP? Got any CDs about to come up(or use an x-dex pot - I tend to save the pot CD for either a MP pot or if we need to push a bit more)? Sing and pop them to balance out the penalty - apply dots pre signing.

People say bard is a simple job - yes but you have a ton of other stuff to keep aware of along with usually needing to handle certain mechanics.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

I apologize. Analyzed it and I would probably hit 500 or very close with DRG+NIN instead of MNK and using pots.

And it isn't baseless. If you or anyone in your group uses a parsor you can test it. If you have good Sch that does 200+ and WAR that does 250 ish, you can easily see other classes DPS drop acordingly.

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How does one class doing more or less dps affect other class's output? Outside of debuffs on the boss that boost damage for some classes, the only thing more dps would do is shorten the fight.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

How does one class doing more or less dps affect other class's output? Outside of debuffs on the boss that boost damage for some classes, the only thing more dps would do is shorten the fight.

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Well I can't name the parser due to TOS I guess, but that's how it works. Usually when OT / sch does very good DPS you see the numbers of the other DPS fall off. They are "taking away" damage that the other DPS would normally do, leading to killing the boss faster, leading to less total damage the DPS classes does.

It's the same case with DPS too. There's MNK out there who did 595, so the other party members numbers get lower than usual.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

Well I can't name the parser due to TOS I guess, but that's how it works. Usually when OT / sch does very good DPS you see the numbers of the other DPS fall off. They are "taking away" damage that the other DPS would normally do, leading to killing the boss faster, leading to less total damage the DPS classes does.

It's the same case with DPS too. There's MNK out there who did 595, so the other party members numbers get lower than usual.

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ehm one thing is DPS and another one is % dmg , if others do more % that means u will do less % ,but that doesnt change your DPS.

if u do 200 dps , u will do 200 no matter what others pt members do (outside of buffs/debuffs but thats a given)

>.< Bard doesn 't require positionals. Bard can dps while moving. They don't have much cooldown um..maybe instead of looking at what a bard can't do..Maybe we should list the pros and cons of the bard job.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

They are "taking away" damage that the other DPS would normally do, leading to killing the boss faster, leading to less total damage the DPS classes does.

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This is amazing.

Do you occasionally mistake small things as being far away?

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Originally Posted by Kettle

This is amazing.

Do you occasionally mistake small things as being far away?

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Lol. real math problems

Ok, i will spell it out.

Low party DPS, will lead to slower phase shifts. Slower phase shifts mean more actual time to hit the bosses, adds.

High party DPS leads to fast phase shifts, meaning more down times when you cant punch anything during phase transitions.

High party DPS usually comes with a SCH and OT doing very good DPS.

Like for example, if your MNK is head and shoulders above everyone else skill wise, his DPS will really spike. He gets more hits in if everyone else is bad. Phase transition will still be at same percent of boss HP or timer.

Or if someone Die. The 'good players' DPS will increase the most.

The general case is that lower party dps does not affect other player's dps. If a monk is sustaining 500 dps it doesn't matter if the fight lasts 4 minutes or 14 minutes. If someone dies, the person who died will have a dps loss, but the monk will not have a dps gain. Instead the fight will just last longer, and the monk will have done a larger percentage of the overall damage due to having better uptime.

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Originally Posted by dejavutwo

The general case is that lower party dps does not affect other player's dps. If a monk is sustaining 500 dps it doesn't matter if the fight lasts 4 minutes or 14 minutes. If someone dies, the person who died will have a dps loss, but the monk will not have a dps gain. Instead the fight will just last longer, and the monk will have done a larger percentage of the overall damage due to having better uptime.

T13 is kind of a special case because the add phase is set to a fixed duration, and the enemies don't have much HP. So in that phase, one person doing better will cause others to have lower dps, but your original post claiming that bards getting a good parse meant other doing bad did not specify T13, and the quote mentioned T10 through 13.

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Yes, acknowledged. And I apologized as I was referencing T13 in specific when I stated "bards doing that much DPS means that everyone else is pretty bad". And analyzed that with a DRG + NIN it shouldn't be that hard.

But it is more than just T13 that deals with this format, but T13 is the most noticeable.

70% (?) - Phase shift
52% - Phase shift - Dive Bomb
P3 - Adds Die - Dive Bomb + Just stand around until Prime comes back down

A lot of other fights do have these transition down times, and in the case that all 4 DPS are good players, the fast burn down is usually due to exceptional play from SCH and OT. This leads to less "punching bag" time for the DPS (what I meant when I said "taking damage away"), and a faster transition to "Standing around doing nothing for a few seconds", thus lowering the DPS Class DPS.


This what I meant until the unwashed masses jumped all over me, so I spelled it out. Yes, I was wrong in only addressing T13 when your quote was T10-12, and T13.

But T13 is not the only fight where this occurs.

Agreed it would actually make me have to pay attention to what I would be doing as well as give me something else to do other than consider which 3 songs should I play.