Your thoughts on the direction of this game?

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Originally Posted by Volcano

You clearly do not know the definition of "hard" if you thought that game was anywhere near difficult. im not going into a long dissuction to teach you the difference, But as someone posted above, there is the door if you do not like this game, feel free to go back to wow. where you thought it was hard as a kid.

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I've already gone back to FFXI, why pay for this pos when the original FF MMO went the same direction but with more content. Also you clearly think everything is hard if you haven't done anything end game wise.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

You clearly do not know the definition of "hard" if you thought that game was anywhere near difficult. im not going into a long dissuction to teach you the difference, But as someone posted above, there is the door if you do not like this game, feel free to go back to wow. where you thought it was hard as a kid.

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I'm with Barimu on this one. First, telling him to go back to WoW is as funny as telling a FFXI player to go back to FFXI. Both games have been massively changed since their launches, both going into a casual easy mode (WoW the biggest one of them). While the original WoW pioneered a lot of ways to make MMOs friendlier to players (quest markers, rested exp, etc), it was still a classical "hard" MMO. Leveling and exploration was the main portion of the game early on, the world had a shit ton of open world content where you had to travel (and danger too!), and maybe you don't find it difficult, but the raids themselves were difficult (Razorgore? Kiting 50 mobs, while one person mind controls the boss, and DDs take out casters?) IMO.

That being said, in comparison to FFXI (which I also played) it was the easier of the two games. However looking back, FFXIV ARR doesn't hold a candle to either of those two games in terms of difficulty.

Also cut the "there's the door" BS, if you don't like people complaining about the game.... then don't read these threads? However from the many people in this thread, it seems there ARE issues that people want to see fixed. People can still have gripes with the game yet still enjoy it enough to keep playing.

Telling people to leave the game hurts it way more than the people "complaining" about it, if you want to defend the game and a multi million dollar company then you're shooting yourself in the foot by doing that.

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Originally Posted by Barimu

I've already gone back to FFXI, why pay for this pos when the original FF MMO went the same direction but with more content. Also you clearly think everything is hard if you haven't done anything end game wise.

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I love when people like you think someone only has one character, trust me, i have done more then what you actually see, but you aren't the 1st kid to make that mistake so no worries. FFXI is also a downgrade, but that's still up to you. "clearly" you think you have something to prove but complaining about none-sense does not really help your case.

Also if this game is truely so easy there where are your savage coil wins? why are you not clearing that flawlessly.

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Originally Posted by Magis

Blindly agreeing with him.

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Not worth responding to, Except this one part.

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That being said, in comparison to FFXI (which I also played) it was the easier of the two games. However looking back, FFXIV ARR doesn't hold a candle to either of those two games in terms of difficulty.

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FFXI is a much slower paced game, you don't have to move much, you stand there and mash macros over and over again, not much thinking involved depending on the job you were, so you're right about that at least, it being much easier. which is why he is going back to it. but no, in terms of difficulty the only thing that made that game "difficult" was its slow paced menu based combat. oh don't get me wrong i have lots of fun years, but it not harder in any way. unless camping NMS for hours on end "standing there" was hard. ever camped tiamat? that was pretty difficult, on my sanity.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

Also if this game is truely so easy there where are your savage coil wins? why are you not clearing that flawlessly.

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But this game is easy, even the current WoW is a bit more difficult than this game. All you do is dodge and they even tell you where the moves are going to happen. And before you go "Where's your top tear gear?" I've been gone for awhile and right now I have no motivation to get to end game because it's not any different.
People think end game dungeons are magically different from pre end game dungeons. They aren't, they didn't do some whole new concept on the end game dungeons, it's still "Dodge!" this time you just need to dodge moar and the boss has a bigger HP pool. The thing that makes end game challenging is finding people that knows the difference between a power outlet and a keyboard ._.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

I love when people like you think someone only has one character, trust me, i have done more then what you actually see, but you aren't the 1st kid to make that mistake so no worries. FFXI is also a downgrade, but that's still up to you. "clearly" you think you have something to prove but complaining about none-sense does not really help your case.

Also if this game is truely so easy there where are your savage coil wins? why are you not clearing that flawlessly.

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Really? You love it when someone assumes you only have one character, so you reply on the very character he was assuming you have? Way to show him. Oh but wait..... "trust me, i have done more then (?) what you actually see"

I really don't think his complaints are "none-sense (?)" (nonsense). Considering quite a few people on here are voicing, and supporting, the exact same concerns and complaints.

Also, "I" love it, when someone calls you out on your "achievements". Like it's any indication of your potential at this game when the battles are designed to piledrive your group should any 1 person die. I can only assume that if most people in this game, could have 7 copies of themselves? Everyone would be an FF XIV GOD.

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Originally Posted by Volcano

"difficult"

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Playing "get out of the fire" is more fun?

It's pretty easy to bash a game when you pick it down to it's most simple components. While XI had slower combat it was also at time more strategic (Not in the don't stand infront of the landslides guys) But positioning was just as important as well as things such as MP/TP managment.

You never just "Mashed macros" if you were any good at the game.

FFXIV has it's challenges and faults as well, don't play dumb.

FFXIV is hard in it's own ways as much as XI was hard in some ways.

I like all the people who say "the game so too easy, all you have to do is dodge!"

You're absolutely correct, dodging is easy, that's why titan in all it's forms are pretty easy. Except titan has never ever been the endgame, coil is and always has been, and if you go into coil expecting just to dodge stuff, the game is going to spike your face into the ground repeatedly.

But hey, I guess so many people are bad at titan that they hold it as the gold standard of difficulty or something. v0v

I by no means praise FFXI for its "difficulty". I praise FFXI for it's ability to have a level cap stay the same for ~10 years while keeping a steady subscription base. I also praise it in it's time sinks which I expect in an mmo. There were a variety of options to go about "end game" in that game. I also praise it for not giving away gear to just anybody who wanted to have the best gear.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Another issue with XIV's content design is that a lot of the throwaway content can't even truly be utilized because people want them to focus on vanity. Lost City of Amdapor...a Lost city with only 1 route and boss...? That is a huge wasted potential for something amazing, if it was XI it would have pretty much been akin to Ru'Aun Gardens - Housing multiple content and progression, you'd have the main route that lead to Diabolos, then you could have side routes that led to different boss or even different story elements altogether.

It's little things like that which could extend the life of content without needing to artificially lockout..heck even in 1.0 some dungeons had multiple objectives in it..or even bosses like the multiple Diremite bosses.

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I love this post so much lol. You've hit right on the money. I... I'm kinda sad that this didn't happen. The wasted potential makes me want to scratch my eyes out.

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Originally Posted by Merylx

I love this post so much lol. You've hit right on the money. I... I'm kinda sad that this didn't happen. The wasted potential makes me want to scratch my eyes out.

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Perhaps if the developers did anything besides Hunts and Fates outside of instanced content we could get awesome things like the lost city of Amdapor as a zone instead of a line we run along.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

I like all the people who say "the game so too easy, all you have to do is dodge!"

You're absolutely correct, dodging is easy, that's why titan in all it's forms are pretty easy. Except titan has never ever been the endgame, coil is and always has been, and if you go into coil expecting just to dodge stuff, the game is going to spike your face into the ground repeatedly.

But hey, I guess so many people are bad at titan that they hold it as the gold standard of difficulty or something. v0v

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Yeah, coil is more like "learn how to dance over and over".

T9 is probably the best, "do this, or wipe! Now perform x on x, or wipe! Now go right then left or wipe!

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Yeah, coil is more like "learn how to dance over and over".

T9 is probably the best, "do this, or wipe! Now perform x on x, or wipe! Now go right then left or wipe!

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True, but this is every fight in every mmo ever. People seem to forget that, or choose to be willfully ignorant.

I disagree, FFXI fights relied much more on people being able to perform their jobs and synchronize with pt members than XIV ever did (sans maybe T4 and King Mog)

In FFXI you could lead a group of noobs into CoP fights and still win if everyone performed their job correctly, but GL getting even Titan HM in FFXIV (unless you have a party of overgeared ppl or rely on echo) I myself LOVED re-doing CoP missions with random ppl. It was fun. In XIV? Not so much, too many fights that basically require you to die over and over until you learned the script.

You can be the best DPS on the server with the highest DPS ever, but you still will die over and over to T9 scripted mechanics until you learn Yoshida's dance.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

True, but this is every fight in every mmo ever. People seem to forget that, or choose to be willfully ignorant.

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Only in WoW clones, some seem to ignore ARR is one of them.

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Originally Posted by Roris

Only in WoW clones, some seem to ignore ARR is one of them.

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If only we could get something more about experiencing content than something concerned with building memorization challenges. I'd like to see world building being a part of the core experience like in FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

In FFXI you could lead a group of noobs into CoP fights and still win if everyone performed their job correctly... I myself LOVED re-doing CoP missions with random ppl.

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This here is what I loved about FF XI back in it's day. Helping people with mission/story events, escorting through ifriti's cauldron, things of that nature. Along with all the other stuff you could do in XI. There was hardly ever a moment I got in XI and found myself bored or without something meaningful to do. Scrolls quests, artifact quests, other jobs, ballista, bcnm, trial weapon quests.... helping people with their goals, the list goes on. Variety and impact hand in hand.

XI had it's gripes too, as does any creation, but...... it's reward factor was certainly much higher than anything on the market today. Timesink? Yep. Long-term rewards? Yep. Something this game lacks heavily.

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Originally Posted by Derceto

Really? You love it when someone assumes you only have one character, so you reply on the very character he was assuming you have? Way to show him. Oh but wait..... "trust me, i have done more then (?) what you actually see"

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Not actually sure what you are implying here, you DID read his entire post, right? it was in his response that i had no "endgame" since every fool will just look at a lodestone character and judge accordingly, surely you did not forget that on these forums?

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I really don't think his complaints are "none-sense (?)" (nonsense). Considering quite a few people on here are voicing, and supporting, the exact same concerns and complaints.

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OF course not, when you agree with him you won't see them as none sense, Most people who don't are actually out, enjoying the game, rather then coming on these forums, in very threads like these, whining that the game is not what they want it to be, whatever personal taste they like, and i am quite sure the supporting number far outweighs the hand full of complaints in this thread.

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Also, "I" love it, when someone calls you out on your "achievements". Like it's any indication of your potential at this game when the battles are designed to piledrive your group should any 1 person die. I can only assume that if most people in this game, could have 7 copies of themselves? Everyone would be an FF XIV GOD.

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He is saying this game is "so easy" but he him self has not beaten the content that was designed to be hard and test your limits, hypocrite at it's finest. did you forget that as well?

This thread has gone from serious critique and a sharing of perspectives to repetitive political punditry. About video games.

IDK, I'm not sure pure randomness is what the game needs. Right now I have players bailing on HM Tam in DF because the final boss is "too hard" because of the randomness. I think a good experiment would be to release the 6 primals with random mechanics and see how the community handles it. At the very least test this concept at live events.

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Originally Posted by Krr

This thread has gone from serious critique and a sharing of perspectives to repetitive political punditry. About video games.

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Thats forums for you. Nothing is ever civil.

http://youtu.be/xFNSUewb7CI

Is this a world first?!

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Originally Posted by Velthice

True, but this is every fight in every mmo ever. People seem to forget that, or choose to be willfully ignorant.

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It isn't though, which is why some people are like "What? This is boring"
I don't know what mmorpgs you've been playing but this is the only one I've played that had this much dodge. This is actually THE first mmo I've played with dodge as the core mechanic. Nor have I played any mmos where there's only ONE way to do almost everything.

Also Titan isn't hard, what makes it "difficult" to complete is this game's .3 second lag and then people's isp's lag on top of that. I don't even understand why they made a game based off dodge but went with crappy servers with a .3 second delay, what?

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Originally Posted by Krr

This thread has gone from serious critique and a sharing of perspectives to repetitive political punditry. About video games.

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It's always the same, it has been since this game came out, battle vs what is hard and what isn't This is not the only game people debate or argue about it, of course. What some people do not understand is that this game IS easy once you learn the pattern of what you are fighting, before that, i doubt they will admit it.

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Originally Posted by allecs

It isn't though, which is why some people are like "What? This is boring"
I don't know what mmorpgs you've been playing but this is the only one I've played that had this much dodge. This is actually THE first mmo I've played with dodge as the core mechanic. Nor have I played any mmos where there's only ONE way to do almost everything.

Also Titan isn't hard, what makes it "difficult" to complete is this game's .3 second lag and then people's isp's lag on top of that. I don't even understand why they made a game based off dodge but went with crappy servers with a .3 second delay, what?

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I can not think of any mmo outside of eve online where the answer to boss doing x is not to do y every time. Also you keep talking about dodging, which is only relevant to titan and a small footnote in absolutely everything else. Please tell me how dodging trivializes t7, tell me how dodging saved you in t8. Did titan scar you that much that you just can't see past it? Is he the end all be all of your world?

Also lol at "one way to do everything." There have been multiple, equally effective ways to clear content since first coil.

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Originally Posted by allecs

Also Titan isn't hard, what makes it "difficult" to complete is this game's .3 second lag and then people's isp's lag on top of that. I don't even understand why they made a game based off dodge but went with crappy servers with a .3 second delay, what?

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wasnt that updated to a 0.1 second check? also, this mmo handles everything server-side, not client-side like basically every other game. sure, there's some additional lag for us eu players, since we cant do much about the ping to canada, but I doubt "crappy servers" is a thing.

(not saying anything about the _value_ of the dodge mechanics, just some factual correction.)

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

IDK, I'm not sure pure randomness is what the game needs. Right now I have players bailing on HM Tam in DF because the final boss is "too hard" because of the randomness. I think a good experiment would be to release the 6 primals with random mechanics and see how the community handles it. At the very least test this concept at live events.

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I agree because the randomness has to be done right. Using Nael Hard in 1.0 again as an example it had points where the randomness of his attacks could really screw you up, ran it enough times to see double and even triple fast meteors and those really caught you off guard because just one of them hitting the ground was hard to recover from, there wasn't a real acc cap either so I randomly got a miss with 618 acc. I also think having both randomized boss attacks and randomized mechanics wouldn't be a good idea, it'd have to be balanced right so they don't overlap more than mechanics already do. Mechanics of course being stuff that happens around the boss and boss attacks obviously being stuff executed by them, an example would be Circle Blade is a boss attack while Renauds and petrifying them are a mechanic.

I also wish a couple of mechanics were clearer and had some bigger justification given throughout the fight, or maybe slightly hinted at in some lore tidbits beforehand, because some stuff just seems to happen because it does and people only find about it through trial and error. A big example are the circles after the Ghost of Meracydia dies, there's no real indication they'll remove the Garrote debuff until someone steps on them, or the neurolinks in T5 reducing damage from Aetheric Profusion and Hatches when most of the fight you want to be out of them because they increase cast times.

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Originally Posted by Krr

This thread has gone from serious critique and a sharing of perspectives to repetitive political punditry. About video games.

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thanks obama

OP's quotes...

"It's a time sink"....MMO = time sink, you've played this for a year and NOW you realize this?

"The community is very entitled"...Catering to the casual, Theme-park MMO tend to be like that....Blame WoW.



...you must be new at this...

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Originally Posted by Volcano

He is saying this game is "so easy" but he him self has not beaten the content that was designed to be hard and test your limits, hypocrite at it's finest. did you forget that as well?

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I noticed you mentioned Savage Coil - Did you know, Yoshida stated 'Savage Coil' is the Coil they designed that wasn't balanced yet to the point the dev team couldn't even clear it all and thus the version we get on live servers is the balanced (toned down) ones with actual indicators for some stuff?

Citing Savage Coil is funny when you think about it - You cited optional content thrown in as a test while also utilizing the same weekly lockout of Second Coil and is actually shared. There's a large difference between say Fighting Dynamis Lord and Yin/Yang back in 2004 than fighting something where you can randomly just..fall over dead because something killed you you had no idea what.

It boils down to this, 1.x was their most abysmal failure in years. ARR is their most successful product in years. It makes absolutely no sense to mess with the current formula. You can speculate about longevity if you want, but I'm sure they can think of much better ways to ensure that, should it ever be a problem, that aren't "turn the game into a horrible grindfest enjoyed by a handful of niche gamers."

last I checked the XI servers were still up, enjoy your game.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

It boils down to this, 1.x was their most abysmal failure in years.

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1.0 was. 1.23 was actually successful to the point active subs tripled for the game, even while it was P2P and most people were pretty much 'bait and switch' when they revealed 2.0 because we were given a lot of: "will be fixed in 2.0" instead, most of everything that actually made XIV stand out was thrown out.

ARR would have been a failure like any other WoW 'clone' if it didn't have the benefit of 1.x content. If it launched with only ARR content, we'd only now be getting stuff that existed in 1.0-1.23. Also, it's ironic to say "content enjoyed by a handful of niche gamers" when MMORPG is a niche genre in comparison to say, FPS.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

1.0 was. 1.23 was actually successful

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I couldn't read past this. Everytime I tried I started laughing too hard.

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Originally Posted by IgnisFatuus

wasnt that updated to a 0.1 second check? also, this mmo handles everything server-side, not client-side like basically every other game. sure, there's some additional lag for us eu players, since we cant do much about the ping to canada, but I doubt "crappy servers" is a thing.

(not saying anything about the _value_ of the dodge mechanics, just some factual correction.)

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Nope only SOME end game stuff was updated to .1 seconds they said they couldnt make the entire game like that because it would be too much on the servers.
But still not clue why they would make a dodge based game and then have it server side instead of client side e.e

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Originally Posted by Velthice

I can not think of any mmo outside of eve online where the answer to boss doing x is not to do y every time. Also you keep talking about dodging, which is only relevant to titan and a small footnote in absolutely everything else. Please tell me how dodging trivializes t7, tell me how dodging saved you in t8. Did titan scar you that much that you just can't see past it? Is he the end all be all of your world?

Also lol at "one way to do everything." There have been multiple, equally effective ways to clear content since first coil.

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What? Mostly everything is dodge, even with normal mobs there's "dodge" And titan isn't hard to me lol I passed it and run it for fun so lets try to throw up something that's actually hard and scary? Cause Titan isn't.
You've played some sad mmos or either don't remember correctly cause I've played almost every one out and there's more than "Swap tanks at x buffs and dodge" involved.

These threads go nowhere. Some hate, some like. I hate the game as of how it is now so I quit. Anyone else who can't see a future with the game because of how care bear and pathetic it is for an MMO should also leave and wait for another. Let Yoshi do whatever he wants with the game. He will sink the ship along with anyone who thinks this game is good, a haha.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

1.0 was. 1.23 was actually successful to the point active subs tripled for the game, even while it was P2P and most people were pretty much 'bait and switch' when they revealed 2.0 because we were given a lot of: "will be fixed in 2.0" instead, most of everything that actually made XIV stand out was thrown out.

ARR would have been a failure like any other WoW 'clone' if it didn't have the benefit of 1.x content. If it launched with only ARR content, we'd only now be getting stuff that existed in 1.0-1.23. Also, it's ironic to say "content enjoyed by a handful of niche gamers" when MMORPG is a niche genre in comparison to say, FPS.

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Agreed. I have to admit alot of 1.23 elements i actually do miss: Needing a group to get your AF1, Dangerous overworld, and the multiple ways to get exp.

As for the second statement i won't agree or disagree due to no real way of truly knowing, who knows, it may of well be a decent game if they had to build up entirely from scratch, even if made into another WoW clone, but i won't deny that most that have tried have falling rather flat.

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Originally Posted by allecs

What? Mostly everything is dodge, even with normal mobs there's "dodge" And titan isn't hard to me lol I passed it and run it for fun so lets try to throw up something that's actually hard and scary? Cause Titan isn't.
You've played some sad mmos or either don't remember correctly cause I've played almost every one out and there's more than "Swap tanks at x buffs and dodge" involved.

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Snap son, you must have done Ultima bard mode too! All my arguments have fallen to pieces. oh wait, no they didn't, and the only thing you've demonstrated is that you have painfully limited experience with anything outside of the odd primal. Also please tell me about these mmos with amazing encounter design. be specific, I'll be checking your answers.

All content is optional.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

ARR would have been a failure like any other WoW 'clone' if it didn't have the benefit of 1.x content. If it launched with only ARR content, we'd only now be getting stuff that existed in 1.0-1.23.

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This view has always seemed backwards to me.



To me, it's been clear for a while now that the opposite is true: 1.23 was Not Too Bad because it had a fair bit of ARR content in it. That is, the development team took content intended for ARR (some of the later NMs, or Garuda & Mog, neither of whom were in the original slate for Primals, or Castrum Novum, which made use of assets intended, or designed to do double duty with, CM/Praetorium in ARR) and retrofitted some of it onto 1.2x to give customers something to do while they waited for ARR. Ifrit vs. Garuda is a really good example of this, in my mind: the Ifrit fight in 1.0 was substantially different despite using a few similar assets, because it was designed with 1.0 in mind; the ARR fight is somewhat similar, but it's substantially different in a lot of ways to account for system differences in ARR and general refinement. Garuda, meanwhile, is basically the same fight across both versions - because it was designed first for ARR, and then more or less plopped into 1.22 wholesale with minimal alterations.

Things like the chocobo barding or dungeons like Aurum Vale are similar - they were, at "best", done with an eye toward being usable in both versions, if not primarily made for ARR and then put into the 1.2x series of patches because the assets were ready. They weren't really "1.2x content" because they were always being made with an eye toward ARR - keeping 1.x going was, frankly, more of an afterthought. Remember, work on ARR began almost as soon as Yoshida was made producer-director.

So I don't think it's really accurate to think of it almost anything as "1.x" content - because the huge majority of the content seems to have been produced with 2.0 in mind beginning around 1.18 or 1.19.

Not that I expect this to sway anyone's mind because this thread is a pit and people are dead-set on convincing themselves that 1.x was somehow a superior game, but.

Everything is dodge. When you move out of an aoe to avoid damage you dodge. When you stun/silence an attack you dodge future damage. When you heal someone you dodge past damage. Truly this game is nothing but dodging all the time. Sometimes the game even tells you that you've dodged an attack and it does zero (0) damage! How awful.