NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

Lucky for us this forum wasn't created since the beginning of Final Fantasy, or we'd still be debating over "Fighter vs Warrior", "Knight vs Paladin", "Black Belt vs Monk", "Priest vs White Mage" and "Wizard vs Black Mage"...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Indeed, we're back...because nothing that people asked is denied to them except for the name.

In fact, that's strange...people complain because they want iconic Thief skills although we don't even know what skills the Rogue will have

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Oh, cool, I stand corrected then. I didn't realize we would be able to play it at 50 without hindering ourselves with lower stats. I didn't know it had the iconic thief abilities. I didn't realize it was going to have quests all the way 50.

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Originally Posted by Erudain

All this discussion reminds me a South Park chapter...

Cartman's mon: ohh look Toshiba handibook, same hardware and does everything the Ipad does, but half the price...
Cartman: yes, but it's not an Ipad...

So I guess Rogue could be a thief clone, have all it's traditional skills/traits, be played like a thief always was played....then you get a soulstone for ninja (like you know, ninja being an advanced class for thief in lots of FF games), still has all the thief traditional skills/traits, still hold the same thief playstyle....but is not called "thief"....the horror....

If it moves like a duck, acts like a duck, quacks like a duck....then is a duck even if I dress it up like a cat...

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You two seriously must just be trying to argue. There is no way anyone can say a class that's going to have to use ninjutsu is going to play as a thief. It's not as simple as, "Just glamour your ninja". Hell, why do we need Ninja if we're doing that? Monks can increase your movement speed just make it look like a ninja. Dragoons can jump, just do that.

At this point I don't even know why there is still a discussion here because people keep entertaining trolls.

You have one person who said they are being bias again a Thief job in this game.

Then you have another person who posts 5 + times on each page and repeats the same tired arguments twice a page.

Why are you still trying to communicate with them?

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Lets get back to what is important, requesting for the class Rogue to be changed into Thief. It doesn't affect the Ninja job if this happened, and DD ques will be just like they were when SMN was first introduced. For a few weeks there is a lot of traffic but later down the road everything evens out. There is no reason not to include Thief and I feel that Yoshi is not standing by his word of bring iconic jobs by saying Rogue class is this games version of Thief in the Final Fantasy series.

Why do jobs have to be massively different anyway, what's wrong with 2 flavours of the same thing? If classes and jobs were slapped onto a sphere grid or skill tree or something I bet no one would have any issue with jobs just being minor variations.


Also, 5 skills seems like the ideal amount for giving a DPS class a support sub-role.

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

I didn't realize we would be able to play it at 50 without hindering ourselves with lower stats.

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A DPS soulcrystal that will hinder stats on a DPS class ?! You fear to be cripled with less Mind ?

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

I didn't know it had the iconic thief abilities.

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In fact yes, neither of us do know exactly, except that Yoshi said "It's like a Thief"

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

I didn't realize it was going to have quests all the way 50.

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You're right, jobs have waaaayyyyy more lore quests than class...well, only one more, actually

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

There is no way anyone can say a class that's going to have to use ninjutsu is going to play as a thief.

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There is a no way a job that uses 75% of the equivalent of Thief can play as a Thief ?

Like there's no way a Bard can play as an Archer because he has 3 songs ?

I really don't know why people seem to be stuck on the 5 skill thing. Guys, we're not going to be stuck at level 50 forever here. We are going to get cap raise, and with cap raises we'll get even more abilities. Keeping the current progression, we'll likely get 7 with the next cap raise (which will likely be level 60). If we go to FFXI's long term cap of 75 that is 10 abilities. Yes, it is hard to differentiate two jobs from the same class right now, but a cap raise or two and it will become considerably easier.

We probably won't see THF in the short term, but in the future I think it is a strong possibility, if for no other reason than there is plenty of demand, and there is little other that would fit for Rogue as an alternate job.

Did I miss some info somewhere where did/does it show scout or does scout mean rogue and no I did not read much of the previous posts.

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Originally Posted by Derekloffin

I really don't know why people seem to be stuck on the 5 skill thing. Guys, we're not going to be stuck at level 50 forever here. We are going to get cap raise, and with cap raises we'll get even more abilities.

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We'll get new abilities for classes too, not tied to the job lore.

Reynhart just let it go. They want to play thief as a job. Which probably will never happen anyway. Thief is a class here and named Rogue and performs the same role it does in most ff games, to turn into a Ninja or better class down the line. They can't accept that, however regardless of what we do or don't say, they will have to deal with it as it isn't going to change.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Thief, as a Job, would be used at endgame (or just post-30). Rouge, as a Class, would not.

Is this really a difficult concept to understand? People want Thief as a Job, because it's one of the more iconic Jobs in the franchise, which is why Yoshida even implemented Jobs in the first place. Literally his first order of business after taking over XIV was to implement iconic Final Fantasy Jobs...

Honestly, the reasoning of "What's the difference?" makes very little sense to me. What's the difference between Gladiator and Paladin? Literally the only iconic thing Paladin adds is Cover, and I very rarely see people using that. Lancer and Dragoon? All they added was Jumps. Why exactly is it so unreasonable to expect Rouge => Thief as a second Job when it would really be no different than what every other Job is?

People keep making this argument that Rouge might as well be Thief, because Jobs only add 5 abilities. Isn't that just an argument to add Thief though? Jobs only add AF/Relics and 5 abilities, so why not make Rouge => Thief? Most Job abilities aren't strictly related to the FF canon, for the most part they're just generic MMO moves. I really do not understand the rejection of a Thief Job possibility...

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1. Thief is no more or less iconic in the FF series as Ninja. Both roles appear in more or less the same amount over time. If anything, it could be argued that Ninja's represent worldwide more 'beloved' FF characters than Thiefs.
2. Originally, Thief was the starting role, that get this....upgraded to NINJA....meaning endgame, you didn't see your little 16bit THF...but a 16bit NIN.
3. People are saying Rogue is another word for Thief, and that SE explained that they decided not to call it Thief (which btw implies that in their minds Rogue IS=THF and therefore the role/place for THF in this game is filled) is due to their personal feelings about what the term 'Thief' means and if it should belong in this world as a guild.

- The whole 'but come on...this game has a pirate town!' counter doesn't work well either because it's NOT the pirates who this story will be branching from. The Rogue(THF) character has been in this game from day 1 of the original 1.0 Storyline. He's a key figure in the main story, a scion and just point blank someone who has too much power and influence to be consider a 'petty' thief. But his womanizing ways, swagger and fighting style does feel very Rogue

They made a naming/lore decision. Deal with it.
The actual playstyle of THF however, they added. Who cares what the call it...or even what pixels they choose to represent it's imaginary gear?

4. The 'but it still could be a job down the road' people:
-Again, when SE explained why they are calling the class Rogue and not THF, they basically also implied that in their development minds, Rogue=another name for Thief. If this is true, then at least at this point, there is no future plan to include Thief as a potential job split off from Rogue.
-You run into a 'why would we need Thief as a job if we have Ninja' problem. You have 5 skills at the current level cap to make Ninja and Thief serve different party functions. They more or less would both have to attack the same (as SCH/SMN shows, your weapon and animations don't change, rather the additional 5 key skills do). So what could a Thief bring to a group that makes it shine AND different enough from Ninja. Also, in a DD saturated game, do we need yet another DD. If they did somehow develop Thief into a Support/Tank/Healer role, would it be enough to make the role seem fun and entice people to play....or would it be a chore? How many who want Thief for example, would really be happy if it was introduced in game....as a tank. And how many tank main-type people would be happy having to level the DD-role of Rogue for 30+ levels just so they could tank. (SCH suffers from this a little now...not all who enjoy healing enjoyed leveling ACN for 30 levels until they could actually heal). Maybe it could make a decent support-type role in game...but currently, that's not a 'queuing' option. And down the road when SUPPORT is a queuing option, is a Thief Support role really better than some of the other potential support roles that could (and probably should) be added to the game.


So the reason for the 'rejection' is this:
1. The 'stealth type'/fast attacker/ dual-wielding class/job IS being added -so people who enjoy this playstyle/role are getting what they want
2. It had to be named something...no matter what name they picked, someone would be sad. They could have named Ninja Thief, given it the SAME skills/ability and look and less of you would be complaining....but NIN people would be upset then most likely
3. When a dev team says more or less 'we decided not to name it x and named it y instead because....' it implies they developed it as x. Refer to it as x. Believe it fullfills the role of x. So there is no reason in their world to add another x. x already exists.
4. Logic. The jobs are simply too similar....at least in what is typically expected of them. Can SE go out on a limb and be creative. Sure. Is that what THF people want? Not really.
5. Its. A. Name.

PS: Paladin gets: Shield Oath/Sword Oath/Cover/Spirits Within/Hallowed Ground ( old name Invincible)
So it gets more than 'cover' and more than 1 iconic Skill....as Invincible is also iconic....also, level 50 is not level cap.

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Originally Posted by Cynric

Thief is a class here and named Rogue and performs the same role it does in most ff games,

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Nope, it does not. IT does the same way like Gladiator is the "iconic" PLD, Conjurer is the "Iconic" WHM and so on, it simply is not. May read the Names of the Japanese Classes and you will realize something; it is nothing more than a definition of the Weapon Type. Out of that will branch the Jobs, just like PLD, WAR, NIN and whatever else is out there.

You will never see SAM, BLU, RDM etc being a Class, since it just not fits the System of FFXIV. Regardless of THF being possible or not, Rogues IS NOT Thief. Rogues simply defines in the Japanese as "Dual Wield" User. And for those who say Rogue does play like THF, can you link me to the Traits and Abilities of Rogue? Since you obviously know more than everyone else. As far as it was explained, Rogue is using Stuff like Poisons, which i can't remember being a Major-Trait of the THF Job..

Anyways.. this Discussion wont go anywhere...

Sidenote, quote from Yoshi ( recent interview click):

Also I do feel that scouting classes are lacking so I want to bring in Thief, Ninja and those that have to do with stealth. Also more casters like Blue Mage and Red Mage are something I would like to add.

Interesting, isn't it? Yoshi is well aware of their own System and that Thief can't be a Class itself... so create out of that statement, whatever you like.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

-Again, when SE explained why they are calling the class Rogue and not THF, they basically also implied that in their development minds, Rogue=another name for Thief. If this is true, then at least at this point, there is no future plan to include Thief as a potential job split off from Rogue.

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Not really what SE said btw. They said Rogue's were original Thieves, so they lost their "specialization" over time.. guess what a Job is in FFXIV and branches from a "Weapon Type"? A specialization of a Class... :rolleyes:

That'd have to be a bit more recent as development style may have changed since then going by his more recent comment on naming the class thief but going with rogue instead.

Also the japanese naming thematic really has nothing to do with ours.

They are also pretty deluded in believing that a class ends at 30, which is completely bonkers given that classes keep gaining abilities up to level cap because the Jobs are equip items and not completely separate entities. If classes didn't then Bard wouldn't have Quelling Shots, Barrage, Blunt Arrow, Flaming Arrow, Wide Volley or such traits as Enhanced Dexterity III, Enhanced Quick Knock, Increased Action Damage II, Enhanced Barrage or River of Blood. That's alot of stuff for a class that's, "tossed aside at level 30." What does Bard give, then? Slightly better stats, three songs, Rain of Death and a long recast song buff at the low cost of archer's wide-range multi-classing.

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Originally Posted by Hollow_Tears

Did I miss some info somewhere where did/does it show scout or does scout mean rogue and no I did not read much of the previous posts.

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Yes its Rogue I screwed up the title, Didn't see the names on the pictures.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

They are also pretty deluded in believing that a class ends at 30, which is completely bonkers given that classes keep gaining abilities up to level cap because the Jobs are equip items and not completely separate entities. If classes didn't then Bard wouldn't have Quelling Shots, Barrage, Blunt Arrow, Flaming Arrow, Wide Volley or such traits as Enhanced Dexterity III, Enhanced Quick Knock, Increased Action Damage II, Enhanced Barrage or River of Blood. That's alot of stuff for a class that's, "tossed aside at level 30." What does Bard give, then? Slightly better stats, three songs, Rain of Death and a long recast song buff at the low cost of archer's wide-range multi-classing.

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UTILITY. A REASON FOR SOMEONE TO INVITE YOU TO A GROUP.

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Originally Posted by Nero

Nope, it does not. IT does the same way like Gladiator is the "iconic" PLD, Conjurer is the "Iconic" WHM and so on, it simply is not. May read the Names of the Japanese Classes and you will realize something; it is nothing more than a definition of the Weapon Type. Out of that will branch the Jobs, just like PLD, WAR, NIN and whatever else is out there.

You will never see SAM, BLU, RDM etc being a Class, since it just not fits the System of FFXIV. Regardless of THF being possible or not, Rogues IS NOT Thief. Rogues simply defines in the Japanese as "Dual Wield" User. And for those who say Rogue does play like THF, can you link me to the Traits and Abilities of Rogue? Since you obviously know more than everyone else. As far as it was explained, Rogue is using Stuff like Poisons, which i can't remember being a Major-Trait of the THF Job..

Anyways.. this Discussion wont go anywhere...

Sidenote, quote from Yoshi ( recent interview click):

Also I do feel that scouting classes are lacking so I want to bring in Thief, Ninja and those that have to do with stealth. Also more casters like Blue Mage and Red Mage are something I would like to add.

Interesting, isn't it? Yoshi is well aware of their own System and that Thief can't be a Class itself... so create out of that statement, whatever you like.



Not really what SE said btw. They said Rogue's were original Thieves, so they lost their "specialization" over time.. guess what a Job is in FFXIV and branches from a "Weapon Type"? A specialization of a Class... :rolleyes:

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First let me address your second point as it was in response to me. The gist of what they were saying back and forth was that they opted to name it Rogue because they didn't like feel of Thief as it related to the lore of the game. The lore of the game is already leading up to the Rogue/Ninja class....it was basically the end of the 2.2 mainstoryline. Now if you want to pretend they were just meaning 'THF can't be a class, but down the road, expect to see the job' FINE. I cannot stop you. But if that was the reason they would have said something like 'We opted for the Name Rogue vs. other iconic Role titles in the series as we wanted to leave them open for possible introduction in the future/wanted to preserve their iconic look. This is NOT however what was said.

But to your Samurai, Redmage and crew points:

Yes, Yoshi'd like to add them.....buuuuut: look at how nutso people went over this, now lets for a moment ponder the introduction of RDM (I'm using RDM as the example because it's probably the most demanded, and most 'It has to be like this!' in most peoples minds which is part of the reason it'll be so damn hard to implement- IE forgive the tangent, RDM and how/will it become a Job isn't my point....my point is more 'what needs to be considered' when decided this job can be put in game but this one cannot...or at least, currently cannot. ):

First off. Lets talk about what this game actually allows:

Red Mage as you say, would be a Job Not a class.
Therefore, at level 50, it could ONLY have 5 specialized skills.

Also, it would have to be based on either 2 current classes in game, or 2 new classes....either way though, it would have access to the entire skillset of it's 'primary' class AND use that classes weapons.

So keeping this in mind, lets talk about what everyone really wants in a Red Mage:

Red Mage-FF early years, was a caster that could equip some heavier armor, use swords,staves etc and had access to both WHM/BLM magic books. However, while it could do a little bit of all of this, it couldn't do any of the top tier skills of any of these roles. Furthermore, it was very 'individualized' The way you built your RDM and geared it could be very different than how I built mine....which is WHY so many fell in love with this role even back in Final Fantasy's earliest days. You could run 4xRDM and have different skills/specialities. across ALL of them...and this was very rare at the time.

But FFXI influenced the 'RDM dreams' even more. Because when people talk about their FFXI days of RDM, they talk about solo-fights, and swords, and staffs, and main healing, and dding, and Convert, dual-wielding etc. The problem here is THIS game, doesn't allow for 1 party role to ever be that flexible. Hell if you really really looked at only RDM's skills from FFXI, and didn't account for all the cross-skills it could effectively use (from so many different subclass specs btw), you'd already be a little /disappoint. But still what people remember isn't 'RDM's skillset' they remember 'all the cool stuff I could do on RDM' But much of that relied on FFXI's Subjob system and cross skills, and how well they paired within the Red Mage toolkit, and when used well, could make some formidable builds.

But this game isn't a solo player game. So balance matters
And this game isn't based on the same subjob system/battle mechanics as FFXI.

So how is SE supposed to give people the Red Mage they want, when by this role's very nature the reason people loved it SOOOO much was it's flexibility.

For example:
What weapon should a Red Mage have?
-Sword?
-Staff?
-Scepter?
-Something new?

Already, there will be people going if it doesn't use a _________ it's not a RDM! Let's protest until they give it the 'proper' weapon.

But, let's say they make it's weapon be a sword (probably what most ppl expect)

Well currently, that means they'd have all the natural skills of a Gladiator.
-Shield Lob...for a RDM....Rampart? Doesn't sound very 'Magey'.

So most likely, RDM has to wait until at least a new class comes out, that uses swords and not so 'tanky'

Lets call said class 'Fencer' cause why the hell not?
-This would be a thin/pointy sword class so it'd fit the bill
-Also as a new class, it would be free to have it's own skillset (mages have 16-18ish skills on their classes atm)

- But New Problem:What 16 skills can you give this new class, that aren't represented by the existing classes AND support the sword/caster build.
Some would say 'Well we don't have En-spells for weapons' We could use those!. Okay, but how will that work in this game as elm. resistances are far different. Furthermore, Monk already has this going on in their own way as their Fists of Fire,Earth,Air =different buffs. So how do you make it that it's not really just like monk, or pointless (elm builds). And if they do something like give EN spells, that raise party speed/ slow mobs etc...is that okay enough with people? Or will that cause more 'SE why did you do this??!!'
Others would be like 'Dude, just give us DOTs and ENFEEBLES' Everyone knows that with some glaring (RDM specific btw) exceptions, that most of these are in game. So again, you run into the 'well if this CLASS can cast it and so can that one, how is that unique?' So this ave. probably doesn't work.
This goes on and on.

Even when you look at the job specifically, assuming they sorted out the class>Job problem: What are the 5 'must haves' for RDM
Dia/Gravity/Banish/Poison/Chainspell? Convert belongs to the BLM's so you can't have that in this game.

And then how do you suddenly make those 5 skills match up to a swordsmen role.

What subjob =RDM.

Is it CNJ? So they can heal/raise/Buff, but have limited DPS.
Is it ACN? SO they can heal/raise/Buff,but only gain utility skills as ACN's DoT's don't cross-class, m(eyeforeye,physic,virus etc) wouldn't they just kinda be like at gimp, petless SMN w/ a sword?
Is it THM? SO they can't heal or buff, but can't blow up stuff..as THMs list of cross-class skills is weak...or at least lacks DD spells (well you get bliz 2 yay).


And if they build from a mage class, and have the melee as the support, then does the weapon tick people off?

THIS is why RDM hasn't been added....because they need to figure out how to make it work, answer all those questions and give people as much as they can of RDM without making it either very weak and bland or OMG OP.


How this relates to THF:
THF in solo player games again, balance was less critical. Furthermore, how and when roles transitioned into other roles was more open.
In FFXI- had once again, the support of the subjob system to fill in it's gaps and weaknesses. Once again, like the RDM (although to a lesser degree) part of the nostalgia for THF isn't in it's natural skillset, but in the awesome things they were able to do via the subjob system.

So the biggest problem THF has in being implemented is:
-how does it even stand out enough as a solo job to warrant development. IE what does it offer from a gameplay perspective that other roles don't....and is this beneficial to the game/would it balance.
-of the 'iconic' skills it 'should' have, can these be implemented in a way that they wouldn't be either gimmicky, or FORCE 'everyone bring a THF!'

Samurai Has no such problems. It can easily be implemented as either a DD or Tank role, and keep most SAM fans happy. So it is reasonable to expect to see it in the near future.

But just because the Developer says 'I'm trying to introduce roles people have been asking about' doesn't mean it can/or will happen....or happen anytime soon. Even still, he listed 'types' of jobs...he didn't make specific promises...he was simply stating, yes I know there's interest in both 'stealthy' roles and 'hybrid caster' roles....the intent of that comment was NOT...I plan on adding these exact roles into the game. You might get 1, 2 or even all of them...but it's subject to development/lore and balance.

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Originally Posted by Nero

5 you want?

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Yes, but you seem to have missed where I said "useful abilities that would not be absolutely positively broken".

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1) Steal

Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 500

Can steal an Item, which would drop from the Treasure Chest, after defeating it. Chance of Success: 10%

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You're providing an explicit economic advantage to the class and providing absolutely nothing for it's *real* job: killing stuff. Plus, the 8 minute CD and 500 TP cost basically make it unusable.

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2) Treasure Hunter

Cast Instant, Recast 720, TP Cost 250

Improves the successrate of Steal by 15%, lowers your defense by 15% in exchange.

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Another case of a 12 minute CD with a crazy high TP cost so that it's effectively unusable and, in fact, this is even worse design because you're just providing a longer term ability that exists purely to augment an existing single purpose ability. You're separating a single ability into 2 because you can't think of anything else.

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3) Sneak Attack

Cast Instant, Recast 180, Duration 30 sec

Must be executed from behind, with PT member between you and the Target.

Increases your Atk by 15% if successfull, STR of the PT Member by 5%, lowers your defense by 15% if failed. Successrate: 70%

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3 min CD with incredibly limiting requirements. This isn't FFXI where people just stand around doing nothing for long periods of time waiting for tp so that they can actually attack. People actually *move* in FFXIV.

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4) Trick Attack

Cast Instant, Recast 360, Duration 30 sec

Must be executed from flank, with PT member between you and the Target.

lowers your Atk by 15% if successfull, lowers Atk of the PT Member by 5%, increases Steal by 5% and next SA by 30%.

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Similarly limiting, even longer CD so that that there's even less reason to use it, plus the only value in it is increasing the value of an ability on a 3 min CD and actually penalizes your ally for "helping" you.

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5) Gil Toss

Cast Instant, Recast 480, TP Cost 200

Does throw a random number of Gil out of the PT total pool ( max 50k ) at the Enemy and in exchange can incease the Droprate of rare Items. In example Mounts.

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I have no idea how you can *imagine* this to be anything resembling a balanced ability. This would make it so that THF is effectively *required* for running absolutely anything because you're having it modify drop rates.

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Lol.. i made those up in like what? 2 Minutes? The 5 Job Abilities can change the Class and its gameplayA LOT.

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I'm curious how exactly an 8 min CD with a 12 min "buff" to it, a 3 min extremely restricted CD with a 6 minute extremely limited buff, and a ridiculously broken 8 min CD that doesn't affect your combat capabilities in the *least* affect gameplay. You're acting as if *Hallowed Ground* fundamentally changes how PLD plays compared to GLA (here's a hint: it doesn't mainly because it's on a 7 minute CD). You couldn't even come up with abilities that fulfilled the two qualifications I put up there: they needed to actually be *useful* without being broken as hell (and, yes, providing one class/job with explicit loot advantages/modification capabilities is *broken as hell*).

With those abilities, THF would *still* be using all of the same attacks as ROG, which means that it would still share almost everything it does with NIN. You didn't do jack shit to prove me wrong. Hell, you actually proved me *correct*.

Also, requiring you to attack through your allies is just stupid as hell. Seriously, FFXI was an absolutely horribly designed game. Stop trying to mimic it.

I'm going to sit here waiting for you to not completely fumble it when you try again. If you keep trying to have THF be based around gaining more loots, the THF you're aiming for isn't a DoW class: it's a DoL.

People who usually say stop trying to make this game into FFXI, have never played it before. They hate the game out of ignorance. Adding a single job into this game doesn't equal making the game into FFXI. How can people who are not interesting in playing a Thief Job write a wall of text that makes no sense as to why Thief can't be added to this game? None of it is even logical. The weak reasoning of Thief not fitting into lore was just nothing but bull because there a Pirates freely walking around throught the city. There are scammers, dancers, and prositutes in Uldah and Limsa, Black magic/ hint of Necromancing as well is in Uldah (1.0 had tons of this). A main character in Uldah died during the storyline as well. But having thieves in this game is just so hard to imagine? Or is it just a lazy way to dismiss it without thinking hard enough?

The hate of adding Thief from the two people posting above all stems from them thinking having an additional DD job will prevent them from getting their future ques. Which will only be 2 weeks after any DD job ever gets released. They can't prevent Dark Knight, Samurai, Gunner, ect from coming so they still will have to deal with those ques. They don't have to play the job, but they are so concerned about other people playing it. What a sad outlook.

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Originally Posted by Nero

Rogues simply defines in the Japanese as "Dual Wield" User.

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Just gotta nitpick that it is "Twinblade User" in Japanese. Twinblades are generally defined as a type of sword as opposed to a dagger (although sometimes daggers are incorporated depending on the game/show). As we've seen with their reveal they're going with the sword variant for FFXIV. Long, curved blades do not a dagger make.

From purely a weapons standpoint, with the addition of this new weapon type I'd say Thief would stand a greater chance to stem from Gladiator even if the gameplay of Twinblades could suit it better thematically. Gladiator gets the daggers which is unfortunate but true and Thief has historically been able to make use of shields/bucklers.

Rogue may be a dual wield but it is only in looks and not in damage or stats. You can not equip two different weapons to gain additional stats like actual dual wielding usually plays in games. The weapons plays more like a monk so why not say... Why is there a Rogue because its weapons play more like hand to hand than actual dual wielding.

All this debate about rogue just being this games thief. Ridiculous. In the live letter they went to GREAT LENGTHS to make sure you understood this was not a thief. They said it was similar, but definitely not a thief. Rogue is not this games analogue to thief.

So let's say SE didn't name it "rogue"....and they named it Thief

People would still be angry and complaining because thief would then be a base class and "OMG thief has to be a job, it cannot be a base class!!!"

If it feels like a thief, plays like a thief, has the traditional skills of a thief, then is a thief even if they name it burglar or robber...what's the difference? the name?
Then you care more for the name than the playstyle? They could throw you a thief healer and would be happy because is a "thief"?

When it gets to 30 and becomes a NIN..it will still have the thief playstyle...PLD still plays like GLD, DGN still plays like LCN, WHM still plays like CNJ....but then again the problem is the name? feels like a thief, plays like a thief, has thief traditional skills....but is named NIN and has 5 new skills?

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

All this debate about rogue just being this games thief. Ridiculous. In the live letter they went to GREAT LENGTHS to make sure you understood this was not a thief. They said it was similar, but definitely not a thief. Rogue is not this games analogue to thief.

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Actually, they went to great lenghts to explain that this IS a Thief, apart from the actual name.
If it wasn't Thief at all, they wouldn't have to explain exactly why it wasn't named Thief.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

People who usually say stop trying to make this game into FFXI, have never played it before. They hate the game out of ignorance. Adding a single job into this game doesn't equal making the game into FFXI.

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The problem is not really hating this game.
It's people who claim what a job HAVE TO be based on one time only FFXI concept. Like how BLM MUST have 6 elements, or PLD MUST have Cure IV.

As for Thief not fitting in the lore, saddly it's what the producer think and, as far as we know, he's in charge.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, they went to great lenghts to explain that this IS a Thief, apart from the actual name.
If it wasn't Thief at all, they wouldn't have to explain exactly why it wasn't named Thief.

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Actually, they went to great lengths to say that they USED to be Thieves.

"They were ONCE thieves. And they, over the years, have evolved into this Rogue class, with their own guild and they'll have their own story and their own background."

Also

"They do have that Thief history. So we want to make sure that in the lore, in the story, that you'll have that feeling of, they came up from thieves and that thief....thieverism." (Yes, thieverism, it's hard to hear since Yoshida began to speak before the translator finished)

These are EXACT quotes from translator for Yoshida himself. So, it's pretty hard to imagine in any way that they'll add a Job when the Class preceding it moved on from them. That would be the worst kind of backwards progression (regression) possible. And to make sure the people that wanted just a Thief, will/should be ok with the change since they'll still have that feeling of being a Thief. And before anyone says "no they won't"...how on earth do you know!? They haven't announced ANYTHING in regards to skills or abilities other than "poisoned blades".

I understand it won't be end game viable (it might, i haven't bothered taking a "class" into Coil or anything) but that's just how it is for this PATCH. That's another thing people need to understand. This is a new Class/Job being added into a PATCH before the actual expansion to a game. How often does that happen? And yes, they are for sure adding a new Healer and Tank to the expansion, but they didn't say that would be the ONLY things they'd be adding. So, will they be adding a class that is just Thief renamed? Maybe, who knows. But it will for sure, not be called Thief.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, they went to great lenghts to explain that this IS a Thief, apart from the actual name.
If it wasn't Thief at all, they wouldn't have to explain exactly why it wasn't named Thief.

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No and this is what people do not get, even when it was explained a thousand times. Rogues were Thieves in the PAST and LOST their specialisation and became Rogues. So their Ancestors were Thieves, but Rogues are not Thieves anymore. But let aside the lore for a second, since that is allready causing confusing it seems... lol.... What is a Job compared to a Class? A specialisation of the Weapon Type, which is the Class.. the Class is not a Job and won't be, it is just the type of the Weapon. I am surprised that still that many people, do not understand the most simple Basics about the Game.

Like i said earlier. THF can not be a Class, RDM, SAM, BLU and whatever else is out there, won't be Classes. Their are a specialisation of their "Weapon Type" ( Class ). Some would Argue that RDM could fit in a couple Classes and that is true, since RDM did use different "Weapon Types" over the past titles. But that is beside the point. It is a simple Statement; THF can not be a Class in the System of FFXIV, that is a simple fact. If RDM would not branch of an existing Class, they would create one called.. i.e. "Fencer". They will not add SAM as Class, they would add a Class called i.e. "Braver". It IS possible to have several Jobs branch from 1 Class and that was actually the main-idea behind it, but also SE will still add more classes.

So while some argue that Rogue plays like Thief, how exactly do people know? 1) Noone did play Rogue or Ninja yet 2) Thief is not in the Game as well. How can people compare things they do not know about, or not even existant?

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Originally Posted by Nero

No and this is what people do not get, even when it was explained a thousand times. Rogues were Thieves in the PAST and LOST their specialisation and became Rogues. So their Ancestors were Thieves, but Rogues are not Thieves anymore.

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This is what I was saying above. They were very specific about Rogues not being thieves. Yes, they were very clear that rogues originated as thieves, but they also went to great lengths and said several times that they are not thieves.

When they said this so specifically any arguments like "if it plays like a thief it must be a thief" is just plain wrong. They said, very very specifically that rogues were not thieves.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

This is what I was saying above. They were very specific about Rogues not being thieves. Yes, they were very clear that rogues originated as thieves, but they also went to great lengths and said several times that they are not thieves.

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Yea, exactly. While i was typing, your post was not there yet. XD

I'm still amazed some people aren't able to see the logical fallacy in their argument...

Argument: Rogue plays like Thief, so it is Thief, so they don't need to add Thief.

Counter: Gladiator plays like Paladin, etc etc.

I mean honestly, how are people so ignorant as to what the Job system in this game is even meant to achieve? All Jobs are is the introduction of the name, gear, and a few classic moves, yet Thief isn't allowed that treatment because... It would end up the same as every other Job in the game?

What does Paladin add to the game? Generic MMO tank moves, and the classic Cover ability, as well as the AF. That's it. That is all Paladin adds to make it feel like a Final Fantasy Paladin, 95% of it is still Gladiator, yet they added Paladin anyway. Why on Earth can they not be allowed to do the same for Thief according to some people? Stubborn as a mule comes to mind... This is seriously an inane "discussion".

Oooh, 5 job abilities. Sounds like a fun exercise.

JA1: Steal. Steals a reagent from an enemy and a small amount of HP, MP & TP (can steal upto 10% of Thiefs maximum.)
JA2: Use. Uses a reagent to give any stolen HP, MP & TP beyond Thiefs maximum to an ally.
JA3: Trick Attack. Jumps behind target and does a high damage attack that stuns. Off GCD.
JA4: Mug. Steals a reagent from an enemy and does damage.
JA5: Mix. Uses 3 reagents and opens a bar similar to the pet hotbar with option to mix a MP restore potion, TP restore potion, Smoke Grenade (increases evasion of team mates in the AoE and gives sneak attack buff, damage on next 2 attacks increased.) or Invigorate potion (gives quick attack buff within AoE, improves spell and skill speed greatly for short duration.)

No exact numbers but the theory behind it is that Thief could use steal and mug to fuel various abilities to help the team out, however steal/mug are low damage abilities and working enough of them into play enough to be able to constantly mix potions would cause the Thiefs DPS to drop substantially.

And yes, it's probably not the Thief a lot of people would like to see, but whatever :p.

This game sure needed another speed based two handed melee, but hey at least they do have Flee, oh wait I mean "reduced fall damage". I'm glad for people who actually looked forward to it though, after all I picked Pugilist in 1.0 because it was the closest to Rogue classes in other non MMO games and I love two handed knives characters and also Monks in most Final Fantasies, though now years later after seeing how Rogue classes actually play in most WoW clone MMOs such as this one, I'm glad I didn't wait.

Wow doodz! New DPS class atlast! Any mention of new tank classes to compensate? Because more DPS in an overcrowded DPS world... Not gonna be much fun with the tank shortage situation.

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Originally Posted by BooskiBoo

Wow doodz! New DPS class atlast! Any mention of new tank classes to compensate? Because more DPS in an overcrowded DPS world... Not gonna be much fun with the tank shortage situation.

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New tank will be in the expansion after 2.4. Won't effect the queue times much even if they added a tank class, actually it would make it worse for anyone above level 40. So no, adding a new tank wouldn't matter now, or later.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

This is what I was saying above. They were very specific about Rogues not being thieves. Yes, they were very clear that rogues originated as thieves, but they also went to great lengths and said several times that they are not thieves.

When they said this so specifically any arguments like "if it plays like a thief it must be a thief" is just plain wrong. They said, very very specifically that rogues were not thieves.

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A person in here to wants people to pretend they are a Thief even though the game tell everyone that it isn't a Thief but a Ninja. Sounds like mental gymnastics.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

The person you replied to wants people to pretend they are a Thief even thought the game tell everyone that it isn't a Thief but a Ninja. Sounds like mental gymnastics.

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It is mental gymnastics and it's ridiculous. I don't know how anyone can try to act like they are a thief at all. Yoshi couldn't have been clearer when he said they were not a thief.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

The person you replied to wants people to pretend they are a Thief even though the game tell everyone that it isn't a Thief but a Ninja. Sounds like mental gymnastics.

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That reply was directed at me and no, i don't. No clue where you get that from?! Or did you mean the first Reply towards Reynhart?

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Originally Posted by Nero

That reply was directed at me and no, i don't. No clue where you get that from?! Or did you mean the first Reply towards Reynhart?

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I was not meaning to direct that at you. I was just replying to Tiggy about another poster who actually said to pretend that you are a Thief because Ninja plays like Thief so just pretend to be a Thief and be happy.
Quoted below:

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Originally Posted by Erudain

So let's say SE didn't name it "rogue"....and they named it Thief

If it feels like a thief, plays like a thief, has the traditional skills of a thief, then is a thief even if they name it burglar or robber...what's the difference? the name?
Then you care more for the name than the playstyle? They could throw you a thief healer and would be happy because is a "thief"?

When it gets to 30 and becomes a NIN..it will still have the thief playstyle...PLD still plays like GLD, DGN still plays like LCN, WHM still plays like CNJ....but then again the problem is the name? feels like a thief, plays like a thief, has thief traditional skills....but is named NIN and has 5 new skills?

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After reading that I blocked their posts because I find them to just be a troll and the person that posted twice right after them is blocked as well because he was obsessed with replying to everything I post on the forums. I guess he loves talking to a wall because I can't see anything he saids lol.

(I edited the post to reflect that)

So I'll avoid the Thf/Rog/Nin debate and state something that I've been theory crafting for a bit.

What if the Doman's aren't the ones that teach us Ninjutsu? Bear with me for a second.


It's a bit weak, but if you've watched the last live letter, you probably saw that there were Ninja enemies in CT.
It may just be SE throwing them in to tease us, but lore wise, it could mean that the Ancient Allagan had some knowledge of Ninjutsu that they either learned from the Doman ancestors or that they taught to the early Doman (or a sect went and founded Doma). Since the CT excavation is part of the living world and has few conflicts with the extended main story, I'm thinking that they may go the smn route with the ninja job quest/stone. Instead of requiring players to be up to date on the extended main story quests in which Domans are introduced, they will have someone teach the art based on the excavation of the job stone/ancient scrolls from CT and the ancient Allag. Thoughts?

This also had my mind racing a bit about the connection between the Allag and the Domans.

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Originally Posted by Omegakiyohime

Snip.

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Oh good I wasn't the only one who saw that Ninja.

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Originally Posted by Arkista

Oh good I wasn't the only one who saw that Ninja.

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Yeah, so apparently those guys are common enemies in the Crystal Tower from III, but I still think they are going to make a connection between Ancient Allag and Ninjas.