Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

I am sorry but casual does not mean unskilled and unable to beat difficult content. it means you don't put as much TIME (not EFFORT) into the game because of life constraints. YES people who get through content under cap, therefore providing a bigger challenge should be rewarded with better stuff than people going the easy way with no cap. You saying that you do not agree with that and that everyone should be rewarded equally even if they choose to faceroll content just shows that this is what YOU think it fair and what you will probably exploit.

Rewards shoud scale with challenge, rewards should reward skillful play.
Games that rewards noobness or that think that challenging = long are already on the market.

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i didnt say anything about casual in general
juyst that there was a massive debate over having different gear drops for casuals vs hardcores before, and it wasnt pretty, and it was in a casual vs hardcore thread

and the basic point wasnt casual vs hardcore, but giving people different drops for doing the same content, based on factors that have nothing to do with the actual content

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Here is another fact for you: r50 gear is better than r30 gear.

So if rank 50 gear is better, then it is more valuable to a r50 player. If that is the case, then rank 30 gear is less valuable than rank 50 gear to a rank 50 player. By that logic then it is easy to see that r30 gear is less valuable to a r50 player, hence the REWARD for running a r30 dungeon WILL ALWAYS be less valuable to a r50. BALANCE!

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Think about it from the perspective from a rank 30 class, not a rank 50 class.

This game is different because you can be every class on the same character.

Why would I think about it from the perspective of a r30 player when I am r50. This argument doesn't make sense to me. a r30 player HAS to run it as a r30, but what you want is to force me as a r50 to run it as a r30 for gear that is less valuable to me but equal in the time and difficulty it takes to get.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Think about it from the perspective from a rank 30 class, not a rank 50 class.

This game is different because you can be every class on the same character.

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I was just gonna say something like this, im sure theres a few 50's out there (like myself) with some classes below 30-40 that would like some nice 20~45gear, so thats the reason, just like Rentahamster pointed out.

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Originally Posted by Chardrizard

so the solution is to add easy and hard mode (for higher ranks) not capping your level, but it is probably too WoW-ish that everyone is gonna cry more because we all know how hard people cry over WoW's terms.

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the FF'ish solution is capped areas/missions/dungeons... and serves the same goal.

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Originally Posted by Seif

If it's not capped at all then why in the name of holy J do I need FOUR people to even get inside this thing?

That's like half the population of my server!!

mygwadfaceknifeplease

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Thats kind of a cap then. Forced cooperation so people actually talk to one another/ have to help out lower levels / etc.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Why would I think about it from the perspective of a r30 player when I am r50. This argument doesn't make sense to me. a r30 player HAS to run it as a r30, but what you want is to force me as a r50 to run it as a r30 for gear that is less valuable to me but equal in the time and difficulty it takes to get.

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most people with r30s as their highest dont share the optiniosn of a level cap, thats whats really funny here
they DONT CARE
its the people here with 50s wanting the challenge who want it

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Why would I think about it from the perspective of a r30 player when I am r50. This argument doesn't make sense to me. a r30 player HAS to run it as a r30, but what you want is to force me as a r50 to run it as a r30 for gear that is less valuable to me but equal in the time and difficulty it takes to get.

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Example u enter the dungeon as ur MRD 50, get some nice r20' gear for your r21 THM, hell of alot easier than getting is a r21 THM isnt it?

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

adding a level cap doesnt promote strategy though
ill still have ALL my high level abilities

the difference between a slider and a cap is, with a cap, you FORCE people to play at that difficulty and level
with a slider you give them the option to make it harder if they WANT the challenge, without forcing people who just wanna do it to comform to that standard

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LMFAO! Again you are trying to pin on me that I have apparently stated I'm for/against a level cap. I simply say that a difficulty slider is NOT the way (because SE will just replicate the levequest slider). Quote the piece of text where I suggested a level cap would solve the difficulty issue.

...

...Find it?

...

...didn't think so. Doesn't exist.

We need something that encourages strategic play.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Not if EVERYONE in the game can do it. Sorry, you're wrong. See my above post too.

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heres the thing i dont get with you and vedis, do you think the game shouldnt be challenging till you are level 50? because thats what you seem to promote.

matsui said
"Reform Concept
Fostering Skillful Play
Creating a battle system that fosters skillful play."

is that a world you want to play in, because yes the fact that people can over level content will effect everyone who does said content. at the very least, it alters the standard/default behavior, in an uncapped system, most people doing the content will be above level, if the gear is best till 36, then everyone up to level 36 will have a real reason to go there, and people who just want the item.
A random party will probably look like
25 30 35 48 in level distribution, in that case the average party will have no difficulty or challenge, the default setting becomes easy mode. very anti battle reform idealogy.

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Originally Posted by Archadius

LMFAO! Again you are trying to pin on me that I have apparently stated I'm for/against a level cap. I simply say that a difficulty slider is NOT the way (because SE will just replicate the levequest slider). Quote the piece of text where I suggested a level cap would solve the difficulty issue.

...

...Find it?

...

...didn't think so. Doesn't exist.

We need something that encourages strategic play.

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strategic play isnt in this conversation, thats the problem

its a bunch of people whining that others may get gear faster then them by using 50s

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

most people with r30s as their highest dont share the optiniosn of a level cap, thats whats really funny here
they DONT CARE
its the people here with 50s wanting the challenge who want it

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That's because at least some R50s want all the content targeted at them, even if it technically isn't they want some means of re-targeting it at themselves so they have something to do. Not that I don't selfishly share that sentiment but I'm not losing sleep over that not being the case because I live in reality (sometimes; not including holidays and weekends).

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Originally Posted by AngryNixon

That's because at least some R50s want all the content targeted at them, even if it technically isn't they want some means of re-targeting it at themselves so they have something to do. Not that I don't selfishly share that sentiment but I'm not losing sleep over that not being the case because I live in reality (sometimes; not including holidays and weekends).

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and thats what ive been saying the whole time

people in this thread are mad because

1) people may get gear faster then them

2) its an r30 dungeon and not a 2nd r50 dungeon

I already stated this at the bottom of page 11. If you want a challenge, do the r50 dungeon. The rank 30 dungeon is intended to be something ENTIRELY different. If you really have all your classes r50 and your bummed about not being able to do this as a r30, level another character, you obviously have a lot of free time. I intend to steamroll the r50 dungeon... I think that is a much greater concern.

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Originally Posted by Laughlyn

Example u enter the dungeon as ur MRD 50, get some nice r20' gear for your r21 THM, hell of alot easier than getting is a r21 THM isnt it?

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example your friend that is a r21 thm that cannot get a group together and asks for help. the dungeon for the r30 you have already completed and want to go help them. you grab your high class and help them. you want to make it to where we have to tell our firends and ls mates to go away because you feel as though you have a single example of why it wouldn't work. there is just as many reasons to leave it uncapped as there is to cap it.

the truth is se decided to leave it uncapped so i will not be following your method.

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Originally Posted by Physic

heres the thing i dont get with you and vedis, do you think the game shouldnt be challenging till you are level 50? because thats what you seem to promote.

matsui said
"Reform Concept
Fostering Skillful Play
Creating a battle system that fosters skillful play."

is that a world you want to play in, because yes the fact that people can over level content will effect everyone who does said content. at the very least, it alters the standard/default behavior, in an uncapped system, most people doing the content will be above level, if the gear is best till 36, then everyone up to level 36 will have a real reason to go there, and people who just want the item.
A random party will probably look like
25 30 35 48 in level distribution, in that case the average party will have no difficulty or challenge, the default setting becomes easy mode. very anti battle reform idealogy.

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Never once have I said that. What I want is to be challenged at r50. Period. That is all I have ever said. I'm getting that out of the r50 dungeon, but I am not going to run a capped r30 dungeon for gear I don't need.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

and thats what ive been saying the whole time

people in this thread are mad because

1) people may get gear faster then them

2) its an r30 dungeon and not a 2nd r50 dungeon

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You know it's strange Vedis it almost seems like some people are saying they are incapable of exercising discretion or making good use of their freewill. Like if someone put a loaded gun in front of them they'd pick it up and kill someone because someone put a loaded gun in front of them, so what possible other choice could they have made.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

A r30 dungeon isn't hard for a r50 player, period. If I have to cap my own skills at r30, then it is a cosmetic challenge only.

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Exactly the point, why not be in favor for an optional cap for better reward then? If they aren't meant to be a challenge for level 50, why would you allow the same rewards if you steamroll through them with a/some level 50 in your group? It's just more arguments to add a cap, optional or not.

And you know that cosmetic means it just in apparence right? so capping your level 50 at level 30 is not comestic, its game mechanics

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

Exactly the point, why not be in favor for an optional cap for better reward then? If they aren't meant to be a challenge for level 50, why would you allow the same rewards if you steamroll through them with a/some level 50 in your group? It's just more arguments to add a cap, optional or not.

And you know that cosmetic means it just in apparence right? so capping your level 50 at level 30 is not comestic, its game mechanics

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you kill a mob and get a drop is the exact same thing as i kill a mob and get a drop.

why should you get a better reward for killing the same mob that i did?

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Originally Posted by Physic

even the consolation prize gear effects the economy, look at mee deggi, and impact knuckles, it was the crappy drop, the fact that people farmed kote all day meant that impact knuckles was cheap as dirt, and that effected the price of everything close to its level, and everything in range that competed.

the fact that it will probably have a cooldown only makes things worse, people hate failure and will try to take thier high friends to make it easier, not only that, but those people will not be in the available pool of people do the quest, so for people who actually want to do it at the reccomended level, they will lose players who would otherwise be available to try to obtain the gear.

Its a bad idea on a lot of levels, of course we dont know everything, we are talking about what has been presented to us, and how things have worked before.
If there are penalties then it is fine, but we are working under the premise there are not since no one has said there are.

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I'm pretty sure if they have high lv friends who are willing to waste their time to help, they would do so regardless of lv cap. Its been brought up already but only a small amount of people who are currently playing have all classes higher then 35+ and as far as SE is concerned the Lv25 dungeon is targeted at future players so they have something to do. impact knuckles is a poor example if you think these dungeons will effect the economy the same way impact knuckles did in FFXI. impact knuckles was a crappy item with a high drop rate. While we don't have much information, we do know that these dungeons will drop more then 2 items. Your still assuming drop rate will be so high that all items would drop at a rate that will effect the economy like knuckles did.

As i mentioned in my previous post, there are 7 classes in the game, the dungeons have a 60min time limit, based on previous post by yoshida we know there are multiple routes to take and we still don;t know what the reentry cool down is. Even with high lv help, if reentry is 24-36h, low drop rate, and multiple routes; its gonna make getting these items hard. So i dont understand why ppl care if a group with high lvl clears the area 30mins faster then you, since it in no way effects anyone else.

People have to also remember, capping lvls in this game won't be as simple as it was in FFXI, since in this game, you can lv a class to 50, then equip your lv 50 skill onto one of your lv 10 classes. If they were to do lv cap in this game, they would have to figure out which skills to take away and which players can keep. something like this will be easier to do once the battle changes have happened, its a waste of time to figure out how to cap lv in the current system when they already plan to change the system. I'd rather have them design more dungeons then waste time figuring that out and implementing it.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

Exactly the point, why not be in favor for an optional cap for better reward then? If they aren't meant to be a challenge for level 50, why would you allow the same rewards if you steamroll through them with a/some level 50 in your group? It's just more arguments to add a cap, optional or not.

And you know that cosmetic means it just in apparence right? so capping your level 50 at level 30 is not comestic, its game mechanics

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Because the REWARDS aren't better. I don't see how this concept isn't getting through to you. You want me to expend an hour running a dungeon for gear I don't need. And being r30 is completely cosmetic when it is only so I can run through one r30 dungeon on a r50. I don't need the 'prestige' of a r30 dungeon and I don't need the 'gear' from a r30 dungeon, hence for a r50 it is completely cosmetic putting a false cap on your character.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

people in this thread are mad because

1) people may get gear faster then them

2) its an r30 dungeon and not a 2nd r50 dungeon

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Again you are stating what you think what we want, when it is actually not what we want.

It's more like:

1) people will get the best gear far too easily without having to work for it.

2) It's a R30 dungeon that will be worn out too quickly since it can be completed so easily, leaving players hungry for new content way too soon.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Opinion. Do you see the difference? You have no way to qualify this statement as fact. 'YOU' 'THINK' it would have a detrimental effect. That is opinion.

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So this scenario is unrealistic?

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Crafter Bob makes a rank 30 sword and wants to sell it.

Scenario with rank cap: I buy the sword from Bob for now because I need a new weapon in the short term. Using Bob's sword, I have an easier time completing the dungeon content in the hopes of finding a rank 30 "uber sword". Bob earns a living as a crafter, and I participate in the economy to further my battle class needs.


Scenario without a rank cap: I see Bob has a sword for sale but I don't care in the least because I'll just steamroll the rank 30 dungeon with my rank 50 class over and over until I get the rank 30 "uber sword" drop. Bob's worth as a crafter is diminished, and neither of us participate in the economy, diminishing it as well.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

example your friend that is a r21 thm that cannot get a group together and asks for help. the dungeon for the r30 you have already completed and want to go help them. you grab your high class and help them. you want to make it to where we have to tell our firends and ls mates to go away because you feel as though you have a single example of why it wouldn't work. there is just as many reasons to leave it uncapped as there is to cap it.

the truth is se decided to leave it uncapped so i will not be following your method.

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Que, i mght be stupid but that didnt make any sense to me?

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

adding a level cap doesnt promote strategy though
ill still have ALL my high level abilities

the difference between a slider and a cap is, with a cap, you FORCE people to play at that difficulty and level
with a slider you give them the option to make it harder if they WANT the challenge, without forcing people who just wanna do it to comform to that standard

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that is pure assumption as well. Who said you would not be forced to choose a Job when entering a dungeon (paladin, whm, blm, etc.) and then you have certain abilities locked up and some level 50 abilities not available at level 30? Didn't see any mention of that. And since they forced you to go in groups in those dungeons and specified that Jobs were strickly for grouping, it's safer to assume you'll go in there with jobs rather than classes no?

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Not if EVERYONE in the game can do it. Sorry, you're wrong. See my above post too.

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This...

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Absolutely not. One way or the other, preferential treatment benefits no one.

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and this...

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

I am already 50. I don't need r30 gear to progress.

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and this...

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

If I just want to see an explore, why do I have to take 60 minutes to do it?

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and this have convinced me that you're just trolling. Further conversation with you is pointless.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

example your friend that is a r21 thm that cannot get a group together and asks for help. the dungeon for the r30 you have already completed and want to go help them. you grab your high class and help them.

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You can still help your friend if the game synced your level to rank 30 for the duration of the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

that is pure assumption as well. Who said you would not be forced to choose a Job when entering a dungeon (paladin, whm, blm, etc.) and then you have certain abilities locked up and some level 50 abilities not available at level 30? Didn't see any mention of that. And since they forced you to go in groups in those dungeons and specified that Jobs were strickly for grouping, it's safer to assume you'll go in there with jobs rather than classes no?

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lets be honest, do you really think itl do that?
seriously

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Because the REWARDS aren't better. I don't see how this concept isn't getting through to you. You want me to expend an hour running a dungeon for gear I don't need. And being r30 is completely cosmetic when it is only so I can run through one r30 dungeon on a r50. I don't need the 'prestige' of a r30 dungeon and I don't need the 'gear' from a r30 dungeon, hence for a r50 it is completely cosmetic putting a false cap on your character.

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your level 50 don't need it of course. But you might be running this dungeon to get gears for your other classes/jobs. Therefore just steamrolling through content the easy way on your high level, getting rewards for no effort. It's called lazyness and king-kids generation syndrom.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

This...



and this...



and this...



and this have convinced me that you're just trolling. Further conversation with you is pointless.

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You should look up the definition of trolling. I am countering opinions with my own. That's called discussion. Welcome to the forums.

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Because the REWARDS aren't better. I don't see how this concept isn't getting through to you. You want me to expend an hour running a dungeon for gear I don't need. And being r30 is completely cosmetic when it is only so I can run through one r30 dungeon on a r50. I don't need the 'prestige' of a r30 dungeon and I don't need the 'gear' from a r30 dungeon, hence for a r50 it is completely cosmetic putting a false cap on your character.

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Think about the whole game population and not just you. There are plenty of other players who need the rank 30 gear to rank up their rank 30 classes. Just because you don't need it doesn't mean the rest of the population doesn't either.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

lets be honest, do you really think itl do that?
seriously

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I hope it does. What's the point of the job system if you are not required to use it in instanced party areas?

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

I hope it does. What's the point of the job system if you are not required to use it in instanced party areas?

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i could write a whole page on this but ill save that for another time
it really has nothing to do with this thread

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

So this scenario is unrealistic?

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Do you have corresponding data over a lengthy period of time to prove that this is a problem?

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Never once have I said that. What I want is to be challenged at r50. Period. That is all I have ever said. I'm getting that out of the r50 dungeon, but I am not going to run a capped r30 dungeon for gear I don't need.

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thats fine for level 50s, they are guaranteed to have challenging content, but levels 30s? most of them will not have challenging content, unless they go out of their way to force it. the target is level 25-30.

As for dark poet, your level 21 friend probably wont be able to enter till he is is 25, he will also need more than just you, he will need to find 2 other people who are level 25 or higher, just to enter.
So what you have is a situation where, at the minimum requirement, they will have enough to actually win, although it may be difficult.
the absolute lowest way to get in the place is with 4 level 25s, who were designed to be able to complete this content, although it may be very challenging. Throwing your level 50 in, serves only the purpose of making it easy mode. you arent helping your friend who couldnt find people, you are only making the mission easy.

If they altered your level to 30, you would be helping your friend who couldnt get in, and at the same time maintaining challenge.

to the person who said they can use thier high level abilities even if scaled down, everyone can use high level abilities, thier effects are scaled down, and your total abilities are lower, so while you may give a small advantage, its the type of advantage that is already figured into all game content.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Think about the whole game population and not just you. There are plenty of other players who need the rank 30 gear to rank up their rank 30 classes. Just because you don't need it doesn't mean the rest of the population doesn't either.

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How does me getting it just for fun's sake diminish their ability to get it?

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

How does me getting it just for fun's sake diminish their ability to get it?

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because he doesnt want you to have it, thats why

its all about people wanting everyone to play the way they want them to play and not have freedom


as ive said a few times

its not the targeted audience of this dungeon who are wanting the cap

its people who are wanting it to be an endgame dungeon(cureent endgame that is, yes i know there will be a cap raise eventualy)

the people who only have r30 characters dont care about level caps or who has what gear

its elitists who care

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

your level 50 don't need it of course. But you might be running this dungeon to get gears for your other classes/jobs. Therefore just steamrolling through content the easy way on your high level, getting rewards for no effort. It's called lazyness and king-kids generation syndrom.

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Again, I spent the EFFORT when leveling my class to 50. I don't need r30 gear just to level a sub-job that is going to be tossed aside. EFFORT still does not equal REWARD in this case as it is more efficient to just level the class to 50 and then get the r50 gear, which I may already have because I am 50 already.

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Originally Posted by Laughlyn

lol im amazed you have friends in your ls...

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/thumbs up. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

because he doesnt want you to have it, thats why

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Again, you make statements that you think is my position when it is not.

I do want you to have it. I want everyone to have the best items. All I ask, is that they earn it by putting in the proper effort required for good items.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Again, you make statements that you think is my position when it is not.

I do want you to have it. I want everyone to have the best items. All I ask, is that they earn it by putting in the proper effort required for good items.

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i earned it by doing the dungeon
why should you care what rank i go in as