Please do not lock Jobs to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

In FFXIV you equip a sword you become a "Sword User" (Japanese Name) which is a Gladiator in english. Gladiator is simply the name of the weapon user (It's Class). Not its role or its Job. <- Correct.

A Dragoon is a Job that is defined by one key element. Jumping for Hate Control. It is not limited to Spears, Lances or Swords. Not limited to, but what is their primary weapon?

A Dragoon can Use Swords. In what game? This is FFXIV

A Dragoon/Gladiator should be a valid option for play. Perhaps, but it probably won't work that way.

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I hope we get winged lizards.

It may have been stated many times in the thread already, so forgive me for not reading all of the posts...

Anyways, if I'm assuming correctly, they'll basically be treating "classes" as "skills," not much unlike how FFXI treated skill levels for weapons. For example, let's say I'm a DRK and I want to use a great axe. To unlock all of its weapon skills (or in FFXIV's case, abilities and weapon skills) or to be proficient with that weapon, I had to "skill up" on monsters to level my great axe. However, XIV's system takes it a step further by treating each weapon as it's own class, complete with it's own set of abilities and skills.

Taking this into consideration, it could mean that we'll be able to use much more than one weapon on each job. It could also mean that once we use that weapon on any particular job, we receive the abilities and weapon skills that came with it. If this turns out to be the case, it could allow for some nice flexibility when the situation calls for it.

Although I agree with Cairdeas and fully support the implementation of what he's proposed. More than likely jobs will be tied to a specific job/role.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I have no doubt that you do. Thats not what I'm asking. I'm asking that SE consider that they keep the ability to use any weapon on any job an option. Lots of other players have agreed with me. Thats the only thing I've tried to instill. Yet you keep coming along saying things like "A Dragoon is a Lancer" when historically its not.

My point with the Class list translations is to try and show that all the classes are are weapons. They are not established roles, they are nothing but the weapon themselves. They are a foundation to build a character off of. A tool to teach you skills. One of those skills they will now teach you is the ability to define your Role with a Job that gives you a combat specialization.

Once I've learned and mastered that Specialization I should be allowed to use it on any weapon. Which is what the Armoury system was designed for.

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I understand what you mean now. This needs to go on your original post.

Blood, I'm not asking you how you think it will work. I'm asking SE to consider a different way of implementing them if they are not already implemented like how I've requested.

Since we both don't know HOW they will work 100% yet until they are implemented all we can do is wait for a Dev to answer or wait for the patch to go live. Until then I'll continue to debunk any suggestion that Job is locked to a Specific Weapon because traditionally Every job in Final Fantasy History has had at least 4 weapons each it was semi proficient with.

As I understand it the job system gives specialization, restriction being, generally, inherent to specialization. It's an extension of the class system not something that exists apart from it.

Also in the interest of my post not getting lost in this argument of definition please read over it. I spent a while typing it. D:

What do I want? I don't want the job system to be limited to one class therefore one weapon.

If I unlock Warrior it would have it's set abilities and traits. So it could have traits like double attack and skills like War Cry. Now the obvious option would be that MRD would unlock it so the Warrior would wield a G. Axe making it WAR/MRD.

What I would like is if they would allow me to also use a sword or a lance. Then I could go WAR/GLA or WAR/LNC and use those other weapons and use their weaponskills also any other future weapons like Great Sword or single handed axes. We know that when you select a job cross class abilities are going to be restricted so there should not be a problem.

Another example is RDM, lets say THM unlocks it. With RDM you get traits that boost enfeebling and enspells and things like refresh. So atm you are RDM/THM however if I wanted to go solo you could equip a sword which would make you RDM/GLA. Now you would lose your AOE casting abilities that you would have got from THM but now you can melee with sword weaponskills. You could use your enspells on your weapon to give it a DMG boost, for fun you could go RDM/ARC and shoot fire arrows things like that.

In party situations though your would rarely use them they would be situational at best so you would go with the optimal setup for the party which in most cases would be RDM/THM

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Blood, I'm not asking you how you think it will work. I'm asking SE to consider a different way of implementing them if they are not already implemented like how I've requested.

Since we both don't know HOW they will work 100% yet until they are implemented all we can do is wait for a Dev to answer or wait for the patch to go live. Until then I'll continue to debunk any suggestion that Job is locked to a Specific Weapon because traditionally Every job in Final Fantasy History has had at least 4 weapons each it was semi proficient with.

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I agreed that I understood and you're still arguing with me? You're hopeless lol. <---Ignore this.

Edit for Forum Lag.

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Originally Posted by Focant

As I understand it the job system gives specialization, restriction being, generally, inherent to specialization. It's an extension of the class system not something that exists apart from it.

Also in the interest of my post not getting lost in this argument of definition please read over it. I spent a while typing it. D:

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Agreed.

And because of that it would make sense that the class that unlocks it would be the only class it could be used with. So we all understand each other, but I don't think the OP will happen >.>

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

I agreed that I understood and you're still arguing with me? You're hopeless lol.

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That post was posted before I read your post before it. I've already appended it to the first post as a suggestion. Thank you.

@Cairdeas

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Classes
Actions will undergo major revisions, along with both the underlying mechanics and conditions.

By major revisions, not only do we mean the tweaking of effects and potency of existing actions - we will work from the ground up to redesign and reassign actions based on clearly identified class roles.

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While I respect the idea that you want to use different weapons. At this point it seems pretty clear that classes will be reassembled to make more sense and will be considered roles in and of themselves. Just check that bold part of the quote. Now you are right that the original concept was that classes = weapon type. However, it looks like they are doing what I always wanted them to do and put all related and relevant skills on a particular class, which in effect wil create roles and not just weapon users. That bold part of the quote just means when all is said and done if I want to tank I will choose Gladiator, because it will have all relevant tanking skills. Instead of me having to level multiple classes to get the best benefit, I will simply level Gladiator. Sounds like a role to me. Now I will still be able to cross-class, but it would be if I wanted my Tank (Gladiator) to have say ...... idk some nukes too.

Conclusion: After the changes, classes will be weapon specific roles by default, and it will be up to you to make them otherwise. And jobs will be a way to specialize in that role. So then your Gladiator becomes a Paladin to be transformed from a good Tank with a lot of versatility to a ridiculously good tank with limited function outside that role.

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Originally Posted by Amsai

@Cairdeas



While I respect the idea that you want to use different weapons. At this point it seems pretty clear that classes will be reassembled to make more sense and will be considered roles in and of themselves. Just check that bold part of the quote. Now you are right that the original concept was that classes = weapon type. However, it looks like they are doing what I always wanted them to do and put all related and relevant skills on a particular class, which in effect wil create roles and not just weapon users. That bold part of the quote just means when all is said and done if I want to tank I will choose Gladiator, because it will have all relevant tanking skills. Instead of me having to level multiple classes to get the best benefit, I will simply level Gladiator. Sounds like a role to me. Now I will still be able to cross-class, but it would be if I wanted my Tank (Gladiator) to have say ...... idk some nukes too.

Conclusion: After the changes, classes will be weapon specific roles by default, and it will be up to you to make them otherwise. And jobs will be a way to specialize in that role. So then your Gladiator becomes a Paladin to be transformed from a good Tank with a lot of versatility to a ridiculously good tank with limited function outside that role.

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So if Equipping Paladin is what makes you a ridiculously good tank with limited functions outside of that role, Weapon no longer matters so why limit the user to only using that one weapon?

The argument of "Why not" doesn't fly in this case. Each job is based on a class and each class defined by a weapon. To allow changing weapons changes the class and thus removes the basis for the job.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post140725. Previous post, going to pitch it one last time so I don't end up repeating myself.

At this point Cair you're going in circles and convincing no one. Perhaps you should wait until we have REAL information about the job system rather than speculation and a few sentences. At that point you should be able to make informed suggestions rather than just pitching your "ideal" situation without any consideration for the game it's being put into.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

So if Equipping Paladin is what makes you a ridiculously good tank with limited functions outside of that role, Weapon no longer matters so why limit the user to only using that one weapon?

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You have to take your notion that the weapon and the weapon user are the exact same thing out of the equation to understand what he means.

Can't explain it to you until you see where we're coming from. Until then explaining it to you is a lost cause.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

You have to take your notion that the weapon and the weapon user are the exact same thing out of the equation to understand what he means.

Can't explain it to you until you see where we're coming from. Until then explaining it to you is a lost cause.

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Again. Once I learn the specialization. I've learned it why can't I use it on another weapon? The core tenates of the armoury system as it was given to us was "Use weapons, Learn skills, Build a Character off what you have learned."

So I learned how to tank (Paladin) by leveling Gladiator. Why can't I take what I learned and use it with a Lance/Lancer?

Why do I suddenly forget everything about tanking just because I changed weapons?


Class/Weapon Specific Skills make sense to block for cross classing. A Lancer obviously can't be shot with a bow and split into a million parts in mid air clattering to the ground and destroying everything they touch.

But all the Jobs are are Specialized roles for combat, I see no reason why they should be limited to class after you have learned and mastered them.

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Originally Posted by Focant

The argument of "Why not" doesn't fly in this case. Each job is based on a class and each class defined by a weapon. To allow changing weapons changes the class and thus removes the basis for the job.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post140725. Previous post, going to pitch it one last time so I don't end up repeating myself.

At this point Cair you're going in circles and convincing no one. Perhaps you should wait until we have REAL information about the job system rather than speculation and a few sentences. At that point you may have a real basis for your opinion.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I have no doubt that you do. Thats not what I'm asking. I'm asking that SE consider that they keep the ability to use any weapon on any job an option. Lots of other players have agreed with me. Thats the only thing I've tried to instill. Yet you keep coming along saying things like "A Dragoon is a Lancer" when historically its not.

My point with the Class list translations is to try and show that all the classes are are weapons. They are not established roles, they are nothing but the weapon themselves. They are a foundation to build a character off of. A tool to teach you skills. One of those skills they will now teach you is the ability to define your Role with a Job that gives you a combat specialization.

Once I've learned and mastered that Specialization I should be allowed to use it on any weapon. Which is what the Armoury system was designed for.

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Until he removes this notion he won't understand what everyone else means.

Just another quick thought as it seems Jobs don't have ranks as we know them, is it going to mean say for WAR if it is tied to MRD that in order to we will have to continue using Great Axe (MRD) all the way to 99 or whatever the cap is once it is eventually lifted.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Again. Once I learn the specialization. I've learned it why can't I use it on another weapon? The core tenates of the armoury system as it was given to us was "Use weapons, Learn skills, Build a Character off what you have learned."

So I learned how to tank (Paladin) by leveling Gladiator. Why can't I take what I learned and use it with a Lance/Lancer?

Why do I suddenly forget everything about tanking just because I changed weapons?

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

You have to take your notion that the weapon and the weapon user are the exact same thing out of the equation to understand what he means.

Can't explain it to you until you see where we're coming from. Until then explaining it to you is a lost cause.

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1234567890

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Again. Once I learn the specialization. I've learned it why can't I use it on another weapon? The core tenates of the armoury system as it was given to us was "Use weapons, Learn skills, Build a Character off what you have learned."

So I learned how to tank (Paladin) by leveling Gladiator. Why can't I take what I learned and use it with a Lance/Lancer?

Why do I suddenly forget everything about tanking just because I changed weapons?

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Actually when you think about it Gladiator (sword) isn't a tank it only becomes one when you combine it with Sentinel (shield)

Just speculation on my part, but I think some jobs will be cross-compatible with more than one class.

For example, Warrior could be a job option if you are a Gladiator, Marauder, or Lancer, you would become a Warrior specializing in that weapon. Say you want to be a Ranger, you can choose to be one through archer (a rng specializing in a bow) or musketeer (a rng specializing in a gun)

likewise, A gla with a shield, and cure/protect magic would have the choice to become a Paladin, a gla or mrd with absorb magic could become a Dark Knight, and a gla with healing/debuff/elemental magic would become a Red Mage.

In short, the class is defined by what weapon you have equipped, while the job is defined by or limits what skills you have available to you in the armoury system.

Metal gymnastics are still running rampant. You guys are wasting your time trying to explain the system to him. He has this vision for it and is unwilling to come to terms with the fact that its just not going to happen.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Just another quick thought as it seems Jobs don't have ranks as we know them, is it going to mean say for WAR if it is tied to MRD that in order to we will have to continue using Great Axe (MRD) all the way to 99 or whatever the cap is once it is eventually lifted.

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I got so wrapped up in the debate I forgot about this point.

They mentioned the new skills would be unlocked through quests. Maybe there won't be ranks for the jobs, but "Accomplishment Requirements" Kind of like unlocking our final weaponskills in 11

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Actually when you think about it Gladiator (sword) isn't a tank it only becomes one when you combine it with Sentinel (shield)

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Thats not the point I was trying to make.

You could take it as any task.

We use the current classes to teach us skills. The ones that are easily transferable and have no difficulty in being shared are cross class usable. So Why is that Jobs which are essentially a Skill taught by Classes, can't be Cross Classed?

Its not the same excuse used for some of the Archers Weapon Skills, or for the Pugilist Weapon Skills where the only possible way to execute the skill itself is to be using the weapon that teaches it.

Once you know how to perform a basic task you shouldn't forget it because you changed classes. That was the whole reason for the Armoury system.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Metal gymnastics are still running rampant. You guys are wasting your time trying to explain the system to him. He has this vision for it and is unwilling to come to terms with the fact that its just not going to happen.

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Yah. He sees the class and weapon as one thing, not as the weapon controls what class you are. Until then he can just sit and wait to be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Metal gymnastics are still running rampant. You guys are wasting your time trying to explain the system to him. He has this vision for it and is unwilling to come to terms with the fact that its just not going to happen.

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I always knew that was the case but for some reason I persisted. I'm just like him! Dun dun dunnnn.

Anyways, yeah, I've said all that I can say and I can't think of how to make it clearer. Cair, you're obviously caught up in your ideals and I won't further try to convince you otherwise. It's just not possible you stubborn person. I congratulate you on your resolve. :|

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Originally Posted by Vesperia

NO RESTRICTIONS

LET ANY JOB BE USED ON ANY CLASS

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Let any Job(that is unlocked) be switchable when the user is any class!!!!.....fix'd

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

Just speculation on my part, but I think some jobs will be cross-compatible with more than one class.

For example, Warrior could be a job option if you are a Gladiator, Marauder, or Lancer, you would become a Warrior specializing in that weapon. Say you want to be a Ranger, you can choose to be one through archer (a rng specializing in a bow) or musketeer (a rng specializing in a gun)

likewise, A gla with a shield, and cure/protect magic would have the choice to become a Paladin, a gla or mrd with absorb magic could become a Dark Knight, and a gla with healing/debuff/elemental magic would become a Red Mage.

In short, the class is defined by what weapon you have equipped, while the job is defined by or limits what skills you have available to you in the armoury system.

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This is exactly what I mean and what I want.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Actually when you think about it Gladiator (sword) isn't a tank it only becomes one when you combine it with Sentinel (shield)

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A gladiator without a shield is viewed as a stupid gladiator tho...

However, it would be interesting if sentinel rank was used to unlock paladin.

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Originally Posted by Focant

I always knew that was the case but for some reason I persisted. I'm just like him! Dun dun dunnnn.

Anyways, yeah, I've said all that I can say and I can't think of how to make it clearer. Cair, you're obviously caught up in your ideals and I won't try further to convince you otherwise. It's just not possible you stubborn person. I congratulate you on your resolve. :|

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What he said.

I think I'll bookmark this thread for future reference mid-June

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Originally Posted by Focant

I always knew that was the case but for some reason I persisted. I'm just like him! Dun dun dunnnn.

Anyways, yeah, I've said all that I can say and I can't think of how to make it clearer. Cair, you're obviously caught up in your ideals and I won't try further to convince you otherwise. It's just not possible you stubborn person. :|

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Heres the problem I've asked the question more then once now and no one gives me a legit answer they just tell me I don't understand the Armoury system which is bull I perfectly understand how the Armoury system works.


The Armoury System was built so that Weapons were your class. They taught you skills as you used them. Most of those skills are then able to be shared with other weapons. You do not magically forget how to cast Cure just because you picked up a Lance.

So why should Jobs which are gained the same way by training the weapon class, be any different then a skill like cure?

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Heres the problem I've asked the question more then once now and no one gives me a legit answer they just tell me I don't understand the Armoury system which is bull I perfectly understand how the Armoury system works.


The Armoury System was built so that Weapons were your class. They taught you skills as you used them. Most of those skills are then able to be shared with other weapons. You do not magically forget how to cast Cure just because you picked up a Lance.

So why should Jobs which are gained the same way by training the weapon class, be any different then a skill like cure?

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Because a Job is not a skill.

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While playing as a particular job will render you unable to equip certain actions of other classes, you will be compensated with access to exclusive actions

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The rub is the thing none of us know. Whether or not Jobs will be accessible to all classes or not.

You want them to be, but I do not think they will.

We will probably see Job skills that act like like Luminous Spire which can only be used with one weapon. And since the weapon dictates your class to use some Job skills you may be locked to a single class.

On top of that the changes to the current classes may see more requirements like that. As in Cure being restricted to the mage classes.

As I said, I have no problem with what you want (aside from maybe some weapon category to job continuity: ranged jobs with ranged weapons, melee jobs with melee weapons, etc. with some hybrid types like RDM for sword and wand). But the current evidence and system are saying that it will be limited to 1 class and 1 specialization and the same weapon type. The only way I could see it going your way is if they made major changes to the armory system, because weapons are how we switch class, and jobs arent classes.

That being said, I'd like to be a Paladin with a short spear and shield instead of the old sword and board. It just makes more sense to me because its a more defensive fighting style and seems perfect for a tank. Instead of having to block or attack, you can stay fully blocked and attack from behind your shield to great affect (think The 300 or if youve ever played that combo on Demon's Souls) But I never see that combo for tanks.......

Also, Another point I'd like to bring up that I kept forgetting to bring up.

One of the biggest promises SE claimed to users when the game was still in development as that as a Player. I could recreate any character I had in FFXI should I chose. They mentioned Both the Appearance of the character, their race, but also the playstyle.

Well I had vary erratic playstyles, I'll admit. Warrior Thief was not the most erratic but my favorite. If Thief is limited to only being usable by Gladiator or Pugilist depending on which class teaches it I can never recreate one of my favorite Playstyles which is a Great Axe Subverter.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Also, Another point I'd like to bring up that I kept forgetting to bring up.

One of the biggest promises SE claimed to users when the game was still in development as that as a Player. I could recreate any character I had in FFXI should I chose. They mentioned Both the Appearance of the character, their race, but also the playstyle.

Well I had vary erratic playstyles, I'll admit. Warrior Thief was not the most erratic but my favorite. If Thief is limited to only being usable by Gladiator or Pugilist depending on which class teaches it I can never recreate one of my favorite Playstyles which is a Great Axe Subverter.

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Those promises were prerelease.... 'nuff said.

Since they're going to have more class specific gear, I can see them having weapons that can only be used by certain jobs.

Ex. Master Sword
Requires: Paladin, Warrior, Dark Knight

One last thought before I go to bed, do you not think allowing more weapon choices per Job would allow for more tactical battles. Say you have one of the dungeon bosses and your WAR/MRD G.Axe was useless because of the type of damage it does, but the boss was weak to piercing damage. You could switch to WAR/LNC and deal that piercing damage. If you couldn't switch you would not be very popular for that Dungeon run.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

One last thought before I go to bed, do you not think allowing more weapon choices per Job would allow for more tactical battles. Say you have one of the dungeon bosses and your WAR/MRD G.Axe was useless because of the type of damage it does, but the boss was weak to piercing damage. You could switch to WAR/LNC and deal that piercing damage. If you couldn't switch you would not be very popular for that Dungeon run.

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Encounters are going to be made so they will work with the system they implement and how that system works. This question is irrelevant.

If a boss is weak to piercing damage you will bring your Lancer. That lancer will have access to a Job or Jobs exclusive to Lancer that will assist in dealing damage to that boss.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Since they're going to have more class specific gear, I can see them having weapons that can only be used by certain jobs.

Ex. Master Sword
Requires: Paladin, Warrior, Dark Knight

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That is most likely, so you wouldnt have monks and white mages running around with swords and axes.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Metal gymnastics are still running rampant. You guys are wasting your time trying to explain the system to him. He has this vision for it and is unwilling to come to terms with the fact that its just not going to happen.

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You can't say that either. Because the others arguing their side is all here-say as well. SE hasn't given us any concrete info, they just ripped a piece of the present wrapping off the box,.... we still don't know what it is. Wait for Yoshi's letter to talk about specifics(I'm sure it will have pictures as well). Right now, me reading all the post everyone has posted is just opinion. Just like the OP was trying to do. But everyone is taken it too heart.

I understand what the OP is trying to say though, but you all aren't getting him/her. The info we got today separates Class restructure/changes 1.7b and New Job system info. As he specifies each word, when talking about the two.

OP is just saying when we switch to our Job roles, that it will be cool if it were like FFXI(in a way) where there are swords, shields hammer, that a Wht mage could still use(and their not stuck using the one weapon type a Conjurer is stuck with), since the Job is set swapping out different weapons would not change the Job, as weapon swapping to change only has to do with the Class mechanic.

This would add depth to the game and allow to feel exciting, not to mention the economic growth of having variable weapons being used by more than one job class. Its just an idea the OP is hoping for.

eg. Job type has access too these weapons:
Dragoon - Spear/lance types, shield & sword.
Monk- hand weapons, staff/pole, nun-chucks
Pld- sword, shield, 1h mace, 1h hammer, 2h sword.
Drk- sword, shield, scythe, 2h sword.
you get the idea....

When user switches back to Class of choice they are stuck using the weapon that makes that class.

Everyone is thinking that a weapon will still be the way to change class/ jobs. But SE could just as easily give us a drop down that shows us the list of jobs and classes. And we choose them that way(this doesn't affect the Armory system either).

No, I understand him completely and I don't agree. Theres a difference.

The same cannot be said for him because hes incapable of seeing it from someone else's perspective.