Dark Knight

Bumping this.

key mechanic for DRK being a tank IMO (even though they shouldn't be [again imo] but probably will be) is Reverse.

Well in exploring the idea of a Gladiator being the class for the DRK, I remember that shields since the Roman period were often sharpened. They were the single "no-nice you suck now" weapon of the period when made out of metal. They would bash an opponent then harshly thrust the shield to the side cutting the opponent. Due to the lack of prevalent metal armor, this was about an unstoppable tactic. So i could see a stance that made all the enmity production split between damage and enmity reduction with the exclusion of provoke (perhaps pure damage for provoke?). It would be an interesting take, on the entire job due to its history of getting a lot of attention and dealing with it, constantly fighting over enmity with the tank in XI.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I did, and he's still not using real historical ninjas. He's using the modern concept of the ninja that was exaggerated to create the video game ninjas that he's bashing. His concept of a ninja is only marginally more accurate than the ones the video game uses (dangling upside down and crawling around on rooftops is not something that a ninja would do all the time, much less break someone's neck).

His "real" ninjas are all running around in the "trademark" ninja garb in which there is not a lick of evidence that ninja actually wore. He also acts as if ninja were absolutely and totally obsessed with keeping their identities hidden by concealing their faces (seriously, he's massively hung up on this). A vast majority of the time a ninja would be running around looking like a peasant, blending into crowds because it's a helluva lot easier to get away when you look inconspicuous than when you're dressed "like a ninja" (even at night; hiding behind something or looking like an innocent bystander is *infinitely* more effective than trying to hide in shadows), not to mention that a vast majority of ninja work was just like modern day spycraft: gathering information, sabotage, and only *rarely* killing someone (even then, more likely to be accomplished with poison or some other indirect method). Blending into the background is also why the traditional ninja weapons were old farm tools or very small, easily hidden weapons (real shuriken are tiny and the "throwing star" never really used; shuriken were more like large throwing needles or kunai): the ninja would look like a peasant working in the field, harvesting crops rather than an obvious threat.

The "ninja outfit" that he goes on and one about is a construct of popular culture, not history. It was derived from kabuki theater where the stagehands who ran around behind the actors were dressed in black so that they blended in with the black backdrop. Since someone walking up behind an actor kind of signal an impending assassination/attack which ruins the surprise, the "assassin" would be dressed as a stagehand so that everyone ignored him and "kill" the actor with no one suspecting. Since assassinations are pretty popular in historical plays and a technique like that only works until everyone expects it, people started equating an actor dressed in the stagehand's outfit as the stereotypical "ninja", much like people think that spies are like James Bond. The different colored suits were simply reverse extrapolation of the black suit as people tried to account for straight black being bad camouflage (unless you're, you know, in a kabuki theater using a black backdrop).

That video has less to do with historical ninjas (as in "actually happened way back when") than it does with the modern day concept of a ninja extrapolated in reverse by people who love ninjas more than history. It's just like the modern view of the samurai, cowboy, or almost any other popular historical archetype (interesting note: the code of Bushido was actually invented by Japanese Imperialists as propaganda as a way to mythologize their heritage rather than realize that samurai were simply a caste of people with swords that were often little more than celebrated policemen). People are less interested in the bland reality than they are in exaggeration and "rule of cool". The guy obviously *likes* ninjas and has more than a bit of a weeaboo streak in him, but that's basically blinded him to any idea that the ninja might not be as cool as he thought they were.

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Never mind he actually went to Japan and talked to the decedents of real ninjas. If you knew a little more about real ninjas you knew that they worked primarily in villages not their own, and had to blend into their environment and most importantly their community and stay that way as spies. If they were to do in-depth recon/sabatoge activity they would need to conceal their identity else their, sometimes life long, efforts would be lost and they would probably die.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Well in exploring the idea of a Gladiator being the class for the DRK, I remember that shields since the Roman period were often sharpened.

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Weaponizing shields happened through their entire use so it's not just a Roman era thing. Sharpening the edges of a shield doesn't even make much sense given that it weakens the defensive capability of the shield (thin outer edges) and adds significant weight (since you can't really sharpen wood, the outer rim would need to be made of metal). The only common offensive addition to a shield was a spike bolted/screwed to the center to improve the traditional shield bash without screwing with the center of balance or weakening its structural integrity. Punching with the edge of a shield wasn't an unknown tactic, but it wouldn't really need a sharp edge to cause appreciable damage since it would accomplish much the same thing as brass knuckles.

GLA already has Shield Bash and Shield Slam which cover the most of the offensive shield tactics (they're held by your hand and forearm so you have limited range of motion and, with the exception of smaller shields like bucklers and targes, they're too large to move around a great deal). The only really missing attack is punching with your shield (hitting with the edge of the shield rather than the face) but that's basically impossible with anything larger than a targe.

P.S. The roman shields everyone thinks of (scuta, sing. scutum, the tall ones that Roman infantry used) were cylindrically curved so as to deflect arrows (as opposed to block them, which is basically asking for an arrow through your arm or a broken shield) and too large to effectively move around tactically (you kept it vertical at all times). Sharpening the sides would basically be useless as would the top since it's so tall. The only edge you would bother sharpening would be the bottom though the only use would be used to slam it into the ground and attack an enemy's feet/toes in a full on melee rather than moving from side to side but that's something of a specialized and not particularly deadly tactic (if you're looking to distract, slamming their foot with an blunt edge is just as effective).

P.S.S. Metal armor was actually very common in the Roman era. Mail armor (lorica hamata) was standard issue for heavy infantry (you wouldn't want to put much armor on light infantry) and plate armor (lorica segmentata) was basically the choice of anyone who was looking to spend money on armor.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Never mind he actually went to Japan and talked to the decedents of real ninjas.

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Because it's not like the Japanese hypermythologize ninjas and samurai, which was my entire point.

After the Meiji Revolution, there was a monumental amount of internal propaganda that mythologized medieval Japan. It happened over a century ago so having talked to your grandpa/grandma about ninjas, samurai, or whatever means next to nothing because they were the ones raised by the people exposed to said propaganda and most heavily influenced by it. It's why people think that every Japanese archetype was bound by and followed a code of extreme honor and self sacrifice there really *was* no code and, at best, was something like a general guideline. The government wanted to create links to their nation's heritage while they were changing *everything* by rapidly modernizing from the enforced medievalism of the Edo era while simultaneously setting exceptionally high standards of behavior for people to strive towards.

The mythologizing of the ninja and samurai are effectively the same thing as the mythologizing of the European medieval knight. No knight seriously followed the code of Chivalry nor did anyone think that the Arthurian tales were anything approaching reality. They're idealized constructs based upon what we *wanted* those archetypes to be, not what they actually were.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

P.S.S. Metal armor was actually very common in the Roman era. Mail armor (lorica hamata) was standard issue for heavy infantry (you wouldn't want to put much armor on light infantry) and plate armor (lorica segmentata) was basically the choice of anyone who was looking to spend money on armor.

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Yes, I brain farted. I was thinking Greek Spartan period.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Because it's not like the Japanese hypermythologize ninjas and samurai, which was my entire point.

After the Meiji Revolution, there was a monumental amount of internal propaganda that mythologized medieval Japan. It happened over a century ago so having talked to your grandpa/grandma about ninjas, samurai, or whatever means next to nothing because they were the ones raised by the people exposed to said propaganda and most heavily influenced by it. It's why people think that every Japanese archetype was bound by and followed a code of extreme honor and self sacrifice there really *was* no code and, at best, was something like a general guideline. The government wanted to create links to their nation's heritage while they were changing *everything* by rapidly modernizing from the enforced medievalism of the Edo era while simultaneously setting exceptionally high standards of behavior for people to strive towards.

The mythologizing of the ninja and samurai are effectively the same thing as the mythologizing of the European medieval knight. No knight seriously followed the code of Chivalry nor did anyone think that the Arthurian tales were anything approaching reality. They're idealized constructs based upon what we *wanted* those archetypes to be, not what they actually were.

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You mean... like the way they might be portrayed in a video-game?

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Saying there is zero disputing it when you're not actually tackling the counterargument doesn't mean that there's no disputing it. It just means that you're ignoring any counterargument because you're too married to your own idea that you can't fathom any possible contradiction.

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Fine, you can needlessly troll and dispute it all you want but it is obvious to anyone that isn't blinded by ninja fanaticism that the simularities between the outfits are worlds more in common with the assassin than your presented ninja.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...a-assassin.jpghttp://www.ffcompendium.com/jobimages/3-ninjaarc-a.jpghttp://cdn.pcgamesn.com/sites/defaul...1394041545.png
Complete with similar color pallet, and similarly shaped caplet. Not really a point but both characters even have over-sized ears!

Now it is my understanding that class appearances, names, and abilities do sometimes get switched, mixed, and matched between similar jobs/abilities; for example, the Red Mage and Rune Fencer frequently do this between different games. So this could be a ninja, just looking like and maybe even named assassin to better fit the European market/esthetic.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Fine, you can needlessly troll and dispute it all you want but it is obvious to anyone that isn't blinded by ninja fanaticism that the simularities between the outfits are worlds more in common with the assassin than your presented ninja.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...a-assassin.jpghttp://www.ffcompendium.com/jobimages/3-ninjaarc-a.jpghttp://cdn.pcgamesn.com/sites/defaul...1394041545.png
Complete with similar color pallet, and similarly shaped caplet. Not really a point but both characters even have over-sized ears!

Now it is my understanding that class appearances, names, and abilities do sometimes get switched, mixed, and matched between similar jobs/abilities; for example, the Red Mage and Rune Fencer frequently do this between different games. So this could be a ninja, just looking like and maybe even named assassin to better fit the European market/esthetic.

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http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...TNinjaMale.png
and
http://cdn.vanillaforums.com/pennyar...xf4bjznwob.jpg

Ears are because...well, she's a cat person.


Side note: Why do you call everyone who disagrees with you a troll? It's fair to call you a troll since your opinion differs from ours?

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

You mean... like the way they might be portrayed in a video-game?

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So now you're using the the exaggerated versions of the mythologized ninjas used in video games to justify this guys mythologized views about historical ninjas in reality? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The mythologization of the ninja happened *way* before the advent of video games. Video games (though moreso the kung-fu movies of the 70-80s who loved using ninjas as massed faceless opponents which lead to the use of ninjas as they were seen in video games) simply exaggerated certain aspects of that mythologization. The guy was comparing video game ninjas to mythologized ninjas and acting as if he were comparing them to *real* ninjas.

If you want to admit that he was simply comparing two fictional constructs of the ninja (the one invented ~100 years ago and the one invented ~20 years ago), that's fine, but don't act like he was anything approaching a legitimate authority on what the historical ninjas was.

I LOVED DRK in XI! I want it back so badly! >:3

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Fine, you can needlessly troll and dispute it all you want

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So I'm trolling because you keep getting stuff wrong and I keep correcting you? That's a remarkably strange definition of trolling given that I haven't even been partaking in a semantic debate because I'm directly tackling your arguments and point out how they're simply *wrong* by providing contradictory evidence or pointing out the weakness in your source information.

Also, I'm not a ninja fanatic. I simply know the difference between the mythologized ninja and real ninjas, and its something of an annoyance of mine when people act like their mythologized archetypes are the historical fact. If you want to use the mythologized ninja, feel free, but don't delude yourself by saying that it's historically accurate. I, honestly, wouldn't *want* to play a game with historically accurate ninjas because it wouldn't be nearly as exciting/fun as running around with insane weapons carving up hordes of enemies, but that doesn't mean that I think that video game ninjas are anything resembling the real ones.

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Complete with similar color pallet, and similarly shaped caplet. Not really a point but both characters even have over-sized ears!

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The only similarity is the color palette, which you seem to be monumentally hung up on. The headpiece is not similarly shaped. The Assassin has a turban like wrap; Yugiri has a hood *just like the picture that I posted*. Exstal already pointed out that the ears are a function *entirely* of race and not of class/job so it's utterly ridiculous to bring them up as evidence as to class, unless you want to claim that we'll never see any NIN except for hyur because they're the only race that ever gets to be NIN in the series.

The *only* similarity that you can actually claim is the color palette. Absolutely *everything* else is from the Ninja, not the Assassin, so, unless you seriously want to argue that color palette trumps the *everything else*, you're straight up wrong. In fact, using color palette to argue for Assassin instead of Ninja is a painfully *bad* argument because Ninja (as a job, rather than a specific character) has used *tremendously* different color palettes throughout the years and even within the same game.

In FFI and III, the Ninja was red. In FFV, each character had a different color for their ninja outfit (red, blue, black, purple, pink). In Tactics, they were either Red or Blue, based upon gender. In the Tactics Advance games, they were either purple (your side) or green (enemy).

Ninja has never *had* a consistent color palette. Hell, if you want to use the appearance of the ninja with a purple color palette (from the same games where you get Assassin), they look more like Yugiri than the Assassin does (unless you honestly believe that race is some kind of class trump card):

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...ta-h-ninja.jpg

The skin is entirely

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Now it is my understanding that class appearances, names, and abilities do sometimes get switched, mixed, and matched between similar jobs/abilities; for example, the Red Mage and Rune Fencer frequently do this between different games. So this could be a ninja, just looking like and maybe even named assassin to better fit the European market/esthetic.

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The only games in which the Assassin job has showed up have been those games where Ninjas already existed. The Assassin was either an uber-ninja that players could not get (FFT; it didn't even *look* like your Assassin either), or it was the variant ninja for a different race (FFTA/2). There is no support in any FF series for Assassin existing exclusive of Ninja. The fact that *Ninja* is an iconic job of the series (and is *always* called Ninja, never Assassin) and Assassin is not pretty much means that we're not going to see Assassin as the name of the class instead of Ninja.

Rune Fencer has existed in a single game *ever* (FFXI), and it already had Red Mage, which looked exactly like the archetypal Red Mage. The whole "mystic swordsman" archetype has never been consistently portrayed as any specific job across the series, which is why it's a problematic archetype to implement in the MMO.

It's pretty obvious that you know next to nothing of the series as a whole because the cases where *iconic* classes get their abilities and appearances shifted around is the exception, not the rule. You'd also realize that Assassin is nowhere near to being iconic compared to the Ninja. At this point, I can only assume you're looking for any feasible justification to reinforce your beliefs/arguments in the face of insurmountable evidence because you've become so invested in it due to having to defend it that would be almost painful for you to admit you've been wrong the entire time.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Yes, I brain farted. I was thinking Greek Spartan period.

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Sparta has been in Greece for about as long as Greece has been Greece. "Spartan period" makes absolutely no sense.

Even then, assuming you're referring to either Classical and Ancient Greece, bronze armor was in common use and was only supplanted by the glued linen armor because of weight considerations, not due to the rarity of metal itself. Still, the glued linen was remarkably resilient and wouldn't simply cave immediately under any kind of cutting force (else what's the point of wearing it in the first place).

At no point was the sharpening of shields actually performed for much the same reason that the Roman scuta weren't sharpened: hoplons were too big to be wielded as cutting weapons, and those shields small enough to be used as weapons would not have benefited from sharpening the outer edges because a blunt edge works just fine for the purpose and doesn't hinder the functionality of the shield itself (by increasing weight and decreasing structural integrity).

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Originally Posted by Exstal

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...TNinjaMale.png
and
http://cdn.vanillaforums.com/pennyar...xf4bjznwob.jpg

Ears are because...well, she's a cat person.


Side note: Why do you call everyone who disagrees with you a troll? It's fair to call you a troll since your opinion differs from ours?

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If you look closely, that is a rat tail, not fluffy or furry at all. Its a rat/humanoid race and the ears are folded up a bit due to the hat. Ears was an off comment anyway, not relevant to topic and the ninja is not relevent to the DRK comment really to this degree. So if everyone wants to discuss it, I think it need to be else where.

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Originally Posted by Neko_One

I LOVED DRK in XI! I want it back so badly! >:3

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Yes me too.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

So now you're using the the exaggerated versions of the mythologized ninjas used in video games to justify this guys mythologized views about historical ninjas in reality? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

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No you are putting words in my mouth to try and make me sound wrong to those who have not watched the video. I am saying that an exaggerated cultural view from the decendents of whom practiced the craft/skill/life would make a good source for a video game. I think we are done talking about this here. Take the ninja talk else where please.

There's isn't much to talk about Dark Knight anymore anyway. In first 30 pages, we've explored the possibility of roles Dark Knight could fill and why it should go that way. Any further discussion would be because people don't read the previous pages and just skip to the end to hit "reply to thread".

Yugiri could be like Freya too though.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Cleyran

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Originally Posted by Exstal

There's isn't much to talk about Dark Knight anymore anyway. In first 30 pages, we've explored the possibility of roles Dark Knight could fill and why it should go that way. Any further discussion would be because people don't read the previous pages and just skip to the end to hit "reply to thread".

Yugiri could be like Freya too though.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Cleyran

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Very true about the conversation about DRK. I am trying to keep this thread alive so people can express the desire for the job to be brought to the game and to leave it open on any news relevant to that development. As for the race, yeah thats a possibility, but not sure about the art style. The tail doesn't look all the scaly.

http://cdn2.arkive.org/media/CE/CE62...n-rat-tail.jpg

P.S. However, if they are releasing a new DPS job, then it would mean that either they are NOT releasing the DRK soon or they are making it a tank. I don't think they will release two new DPS roles at the same time.

They are releasing a gun class and dagger class, the news will be at E3. I swear, if Yoshi lied about Ninja being tank..

http://www.psu.com/a023154/New-Jobs-...er-PvP-details

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Originally Posted by Exstal

They are releasing a gun class and dagger class, the news will be at E3. I swear, if Yoshi lied about Ninja being tank..

http://www.psu.com/a023154/New-Jobs-...er-PvP-details

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Yes I hear about that from Mr. Happy the other day.

-When did Yoshi talk about ninja's being a tank or lack there of?

I'm having a real hard time locating the exact spot where he said it, however he once expressed his disdain for how FFXI did things to some classes.

Red Mage being a refresh bot. Ninja being tank. Things that contradicted their older roles by a ridiculous amount.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...TNinjaMale.png
and
http://cdn.vanillaforums.com/pennyar...xf4bjznwob.jpg

Ears are because...well, she's a cat person.


Side note: Why do you call everyone who disagrees with you a troll? It's fair to call you a troll since your opinion differs from ours?

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Those ears are WAY to big to be a Miq'ote.

WAY WAY too big.

Just compare a Darklight Cowl on a Miq'ote head(or any other hood) and you can see those ears are 2-3 times longer than any Miq'ote.

Also, Miq'ote ears push against fabric causing vertical indentations, rather than folding back with the fabric.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I'm having a real hard time locating the exact spot where he said it, however he once expressed his disdain for how FFXI did things to some classes.

Red Mage being a refresh bot. Ninja being tank. Things that contradicted their older roles by a ridiculous amount.

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Ah okay. Well that is cool. I see no problem with the ninja being a Tank, DPS, or Support. Just not a healer. Each has their place in history and media. I just hope we don't get too many DPS at once. Will make all the rest suck to play because they won't be able to get into dungeons.

Sigh. Looking at DRK sometime after the FOLLOWING E3 convention.... T_T
This does not look well. Hope they have just been keeping things secret, but no word on it.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Ears are because...well, she's a cat person.

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She is not a cat person.....

Whether those are ears or horns, just look at her tail. it has scales! If anything she's some kind of reptilian race! A cat person!? No.

I was going to make a post elsewhere in reply to DRK ness, but then I found that this thread existed. IDK about Darklight gear anymore, but what the 2nd poster said, I agree.

I'm also WAR & PLD, waiting for DRK.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Are you seriously using a video about video game ninjas as a link to historic ninjas? The "defensive tactics" of the historic ninja were almost entirely evasive techniques; not "dodge the sword" but "run away or hide so that they can't catch me". I really don't see a tank doing that.

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Maybe if the tank was like Brave Ser Robin. Kudos to those that get the reference.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Maybe if the tank was like Brave Ser Robin. Kudos to those that get the reference.

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Only if the class/job comes with a free minstrel.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

Only if the class/job comes with a free minstrel.

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Most groups have a bard....close enough :P

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Most groups have a bard....close enough :P

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Not that same as Sir Robin's minstrel. He was great.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

Not that same as Sir Robin's minstrel. He was great.

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Sir Robin's minstrel could actually use Swiftsong on combat. Let's see one of the lesser bards around here do *that*.

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Originally Posted by brigga

I used to play the old ff online for a long time and my fav job of all was drk, jw anyone know or think they ever going to have drk class again? would be sweet

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Maybe.http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/images/blank.gif

--> Samurai <--

hell ya, im definitely hoping for drk. that was my class in old ff and def loved it. so awesome and so fun to play if you like being a dmg class. so yes im really hoping they bring drk to the game

10 mil gil says more than half the people her saying " i was a drk, best class ever" blah blah only leveled drk AFTER ragnarok became good. i bet NONE of you had a rag before it became the go to weapon for zergs. no pics no proof! post your screen shot with dates of you getting a rag way back when!

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Originally Posted by Exstal

That aside, there are 3 ways Dark Knight could go;

- GLA DPS job (more likely)
- LNC tank job (unlikely)
- New class altogether (least likely)

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I would've said "least likely" would be it being a fish, but here we are:

http://xivdb.com/screenshots/item/76...0f39806083.png

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Originally Posted by Exstal

- GLA DPS job (more likely)
- LNC tank job (unlikely)
- New class altogether (least likely)

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http://i.imgur.com/6a57SrI.png

A blast from the past with relevancy

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Originally Posted by Exstal

http://i.imgur.com/6a57SrI.png

A blast from the past with relevancy

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Ok, I'm happy. Neither the paladin nor the warrior are my flavor of tank class. Hopefully SE can pull off the "dark offensive magic" tank better than Blizzard's death knight.

Arg! Now do I want to tank with a Great Sword or Great Axe? My life is soo hard, soo many tough decisions.