Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

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Originally Posted by Eylev

Not to mention, 8man dungeons other than primal fights tend to have alot of adds appearing when engaging boss fight.. This is where WAR will shine alot!

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I can count on 1 hand how many packs in coil have more than have more than 2 or 3 adds. Turn 4 is the only boss with adds that need to be tanked, and half of them 2 shot warriors.

And the other half are more easily tanked by a Paladin who can regen their MP in combat so they aren't running out of TP by spamming Overpower.

There would have to be a MAJOR oversight on our part (as players) for WAR to suddenly become on par with PLD. Given the amount of research we have already done, I find this unlikely.

1) if it's taken the entire playerbase this long to figure out, it's too well hidden. Therefore it is a design problem.

2) Perception is king. even if, on paper or in the data, they are roughly equal it won't matter. people feel WAR is weaker. therefore it is weaker.

3) The main comparison is performance in coil. Coil wasn't really designed to be done with the gear currently available pre-coil. so it's technically off-label use. If this is the case, than the issue isn't with WAR being weak, it is with PLD being too strong. it's able to do things it shouldn't be able to do. IE: consistenly tank mobs that are 10+ levels above your current iLvl.

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There are a couple of things I don't like about WAR currently. I mentioned briefly a few things that could help. but the problem is far more deeply rooted than that.

both tanks have a 'mitigation' but it depends on your viewpoint. as far as an overall 'system' we can look at it like this:

HP is a resource. Damage removes the resource. Healing restores that resource.

A mob does damage. the tank takes damage. the healer restores damage.

Boiled down, Mitigation is the capability of the tank to restore 'free' HP to itself. This can be in the form of reducing the damage a mob does (PLD) or restored health (WAR). 'true' mitigation, however is really just reducing damage taken (PLD).

If we wanted to make paladin more on par with Warrior, Shield oath would need to be recast every 30 seconds. Spirits within, Cover, and Hallowed ground would need to remove shield oath, cost MP, and you could only apply shield oath after 2 Halone combos. to top it all off, Shield oath would need to constantly drain MP, similar to a bard song. (forcing you to work riot blade into your rotation) Sound stupid? you're right. it is.

but Why so severe?

looking back at the system for damage taken/restored. Paladin does its mitigation up front. War does its mitigation on the backend. Shield oath provides a persistent 20% mitigation as PLDs main form of mitigation. War, on the other hand does it on the back end. The difference with WAR is that it's a 15% to healing recieved, rather than a straight 20% from damage taken. However given that you must spend wrath stacks to use your secondary form of mitigation (IB, etc.), you lose the 15% temporarily.

so in the long run, WAR really only gets somewhere between 10-15% persistent mitigation. PLD always gets its 20%. Not only that, PLDs secondary forms of mitigation are at 0 cost. they don't take MP, they dont' take TP, they don't even consume the GCD.

Now you might argue that WAR has self healing to help bridge this gap. but keep in mind, we're still trying to bridge the gap between persistant mitigation. we haven't even touched the extra bonuses paladin gets between shield, parry, rampart, bulwark, and sentinel. WAR will need to spend the bulk of its active abilities simply trying bridge that persistent 20%. The mitigation gap is just too large. no amount of 'research' is going to bridge that gap.

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Now, there are a couple of abilities I rarely use on War. and so in the short term this will be where I focus my efforts.

1) Unchained

I never use this. I can't really see a point to it. you can't use it as an 'o shit' button like IB. you could potentially use it with berserk/blood bath/vengeance to get more health returned. but then you're losing the 15% healing received. I imagine this breaks even, or is close enough to not matter, in the long run. but I could be wrong. So i'll test it out in my own time. I have a feeling this is a lot like Sword Oath. it's an ability we aren't really meant to use that often.

2) Holmgang.

I can think of 0 situations where I would even attempt to use this. given how mobile you have to be to dodge attacks, why in the world would I ever bind myself? is this a potential hidden gem? if I bind myself can I avoid knockbacks like Repel? is that even really useful? when a mob does one if it's 'don't attack the tank' moves can I bind it and interrupt these abilities? I mean it doesn't even do damage... I suspect this is WARs answer to Cover. but I can't even bind something to run up and get hate back. Coupled with the high probability of this getting you killed...I'm pretty sure this isn't what we're missing either.

3) Stat allocation.

I wont' dive deep into this. it's fairly obvious. However all data I've seen has been inconclusive. that being said, I doubt us switching from VIT to STR builds or going with DD gear and attempting to tank with it will drastically improve our ability to stay alive. not to mention it's not intuitive to do this. if this is the intended stat allocation, its not clear enough. therefore it is bad design.

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Originally Posted by Onisake

1) if it's taken the entire playerbase this long to figure out, it's too well hidden. Therefore it is a design problem.

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This is kind of the smartest and most on-topic thing anyone has said in this thread. Either Warriors scale way better with gear (like, get way bigger advantages with gearing up because PLD is on a % mitigation where Warrior uses hard numbers) and they are testing with better gear, or they need to share with us how to play this class.

After participating in these threads, etc, I really would like to switch classes to a WAR because of how interesting it sounds, but it just seems like the odds are insurmountable currently. WHETHER its as an off-tank or a main tank.

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so in the long run, WAR really only gets somewhere between 10-15% persistent mitigation. PLD always gets its 20%

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Just a reminder, heal buff % cannot be simply compared to damage reduction.
100 -20% = 80

10 hits => 800dmg on PLD, 1000dmg on war
+15% on a 800hp heal = 920hp

To have those 1k hp healed back you need a permanent 25% heal buff.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Either Warriors scale way better with gear (like, get way bigger advantages with gearing up because PLD is on a % mitigation where Warrior uses hard numbers)

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Why do so many people keep saying this?
All percentage multipliers inherently scale. Doesn't matter if the percentage multiplier is vitality or damage reduction, both scale.

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Originally Posted by Sargon

Just a reminder, heal buff % cannot be simply compared to damage reduction.
100 -20% = 80

10 hits => 800dmg on PLD, 1000dmg on war
+15% on a 800hp heal = 920hp

To have those 1k hp healed back you need a permanent 25% heal buff.

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^This.

Who cares if I have 25% more HP if it still takes 20% more mana and GCD to heal through the damage we're taking? Even if you have a BRD and the mana never becomes an issue, a healer still has to heal a WAR 20% more OFTEN than a PLD. There's no permanent +20% casting speed buff in the game, and even if there was, PLD would still be leaps and bounds ahead. Why? Because there's no way a WARs damage is better than 2x Healers doing damage instead of 20% more healing.

For a WAR to be better than PLD, they have to do more damage than the PLD plus the extra damage healers get to do when they have a PLD. There's no way that's the current state, nor should it ever be.

Didn't FFXI have a boss named Absolute Virtue? Didn't SE say they beat him internally? Wasn't he undefeated for 2 years without "exploits"?

And people really believe the dev when he says wars are fine?

*never played eleven, just heard about it.

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Originally Posted by Eylev

Kitru.. How much damage does Sword Oath can do? Its 50 but not 50%.. And that's only applicable to auto attack (Correct me if im wrong).

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Sword Oath does an extra 50 damage with each auto-attack, which happens more than once per GCD so the baseline estimate I was going with (one hit per GCD) is actually underestimating PLD DPS in Sword Oath.

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You are right on berserk though but how does maim skill this advantage "disappear" out from a warrior?

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Because you're acting as if PLD and WAR have the same base damage before multipliers, which they do not. A WAR has a fair deal *less* damage pre-multipliers because PLD has Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within.

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War does and able to do more damage than a PLD. It's depending on how you are going to play with it, combining what kind of based class skills & cross class skills before entering a dungeon.. Too bad you cant proved that..

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I've already proven it elsewhere. Let me prove it, once again, right here and now. To clarify, we're talking about WAR outside of Defiance and PLD in Sword Oath. These are *not* tank active numbers. Furthermore, there is no difference between the damage that a sword and an axe deal. The only difference *at all* is that Sword Oath does more damage with a faster weapon and, as previously stated, I'm acting as if the weapon speed for it were 2.5 for simplicity's sake, which ends up underestimating PLD DPS by a small amount.

The only additional that is going to improve a WAR's DPS is Internal Release. It provides 20% additional crit for 15 seconds every 60 seconds. With a baseline 10% crit rate and 50% additional damage from crits, this amounts to a 9.5% ((1+3*.5)/(1+.1*.5)) increase in damage with 25% uptime (15/60), which equates to a monumental 2.375% (9.5 * .25) increase in damage dealt.

Berserk has separate benefits for auto-attacks and special attacks thanks to pacification. For auto attacks, Berserk provides 50% additional damage for 20 seconds every 90 seconds, or 11.1% increase to damage (1/.9, yet again). For special attacks, it provides a 50% increase for 20 seconds and a -100% debuff for 5 seconds every 90 seconds. Effectively, it's got a 10 second duration so that amounts to 5.56% increase to damage (.5/.9).

Maim is a 20% increase in damage on a permanent basis. Storm's Eye is a ~11.1% (1/.9) increase in damage dealt, but it applies to both PLD and WAR if there is a WAR present.

Fight or Flight provides a 30% increase in damage dealt for 30 seconds every 90 seconds, which amounts to a 10% increase in damage dealt over time. Spirits Within deals 300 potency every 30 seconds (as DPS, you shouldn't be taking damage), and Circle of Scorn provides 250 potency every 25 seconds. As such, that's an extra 25 damage per GCD (300/30*2.5; 250/25*2.5) since they're both off GCD.

Fracture provides a DPS increase by providing a 220 potency attack every 3 Halone uses. This necessitates some downtime on the debuff, but it's required to prevent interrupting a combo or clipping ticks. For a WAR, it's 300, but the optimal rotation clips one tick so it's practically only 280.

Auto-attacks provides a baseline 83.33 potency per GCD (2.5/3). Sword Oath provides 50 additional potency with every auto attack hit and swords tend to have attack speeds in the 2.1-2.3 range, but, as previously stated, I'm simplifying which underestimates performance slightly.

The effective rotations for each are as follows:

PLD: Halone>Halone>Halone>Frac (150 + 200 + 260 + 150 + 200 + 260 + 150 + 200 + 260 + 220) = 205 per GCD
WAR: SE>BB>Frac>SE>BB (150 + 190 + 270 + 150 + 200 + 280 + 300 + 150 + 190 + 270 + 150 + 200 + 280) = 213.85 per GCD

The total damage formulas are then...

WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * /.9 * 1.02375 = 434.39 potency per GCD

PLD (without WAR):
(205 + 83.33 + 50 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 = 427.16 potency per GCD

PLD (with WAR):
(205 + 83.33 + 50 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 / .9 = 474.63 potency per GCD

So, yeah, PLD in Sword Oath deals only slightly *less* damage than WAR outside of Defiance *and that's underestimating PLD damage*. WAR has a lot of damage modifiers but it has a lower base value to act upon. This is the issue that people keep forgetting. It's not like PLD and WAR start off with the same base damage and WAR ends up doing more thanks to a crapton of amazing multipliers. PLD ends up doing more because Fight or Flight is flipping awesome, Berserk is terrible, and Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within are, effectively, a 14.78% increase in total DPS (it's even larger in Shield Oath because it doesn't have that pesky 50+ additional getting in the way).

The only reason a PLD will deal less damage than a WAR is if said PLD isn't using the tools given to them like they should be. If they're not using Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within, their DPS plummets (372 potency per GCD).

Now, because I know you're going to ask for it, here are the numbers while in their relevant tank stances. Everything is the same except that they have their relevant damage multipliers (.75 for Defiance, .8 for Shield Oath), PLD no longer gets the +50 potency, and WAR gets a 4.76% increase to DPS from Wrath V ((1+.2*.5)/(1+.1*.5)). Internal Release actually drops its contribution to 2.72% increase (((1 + .4 * .5)/(1+.2 * .5) - 1)*(15 / 60)).

(Edit: I'm adding a pure Butcher's Block, max enmity generation formula; base DPS per GCD is 210: (150 + 200 + 280) / 3)

(Edit: Butcher's Block is actually inferior to a new combo rotation that I've been playing with: BB>BB>SE; the math on it is slightly more complex because you're sacrificing 100% uptime on SE, but I'm adding it as well; the damage numbers are 630 for a BB combo and 610 for SE)

WAR:
(213.85 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 /.9 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 = 342.45 potency per GCD

WAR (Butcher's Block):
(210 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 = 253.56 potency per GCD

WAR (BB>BB>SE):
((2 * (630) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 = 325.3 potency per GCD

PLD (without WAR):
(205 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 = 297.73 potency per GCD

PLD (with WAR)
(205 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 / .9 = 330.8 potency per GCD

A PLD without a WAR around to provide the debuff deals 86.9% of the damage that a WAR does, but as soon as you go WAR + PLD, the PLD gets pretty damned close (96.60%). Of course, as soon as you start not using Inner Release and Berserk on CD in order to maximize mitigation through Inner Beast, the WAR number starts going down pretty quickly. A PLD can use his CDs as quickly as possible without negatively impacting anything.

(Edit: By maximizing enmity generation using the BB>BB>SE combo, WAR damage drops a fair deal, reducing the DPS advantage. With 2 WARs, you can do some really dangerous things if you know how to cycle SE combos properly to maintain 100% uptime while using BB>BB>BB>SE>Fracture, but that requires the WAR synchronize adding in a Fracture use would increase damage but creates some problems with maintaining uptime and combos. If you do it right, you actually maintain *better* damage than a WAR solo.)

Basically, there is no DPS advantage to using 2 WARs (Edit: You *can* get a DPS advantage out of running 2 WARs, but it is *really* hard to manage and requires a lot of precision between both players). To max out damage, comically enough, you want a PLD offtank and a WAR main tank since PLD does a crapton more damage with Sword Oath than a WAR does without Defiance. Of course, the maximization of said damage is actually a comparatively small amount of damage. The difference between a PLD tank and a WAR tank exclusive of one another, is a whopping 31 potency per GCD. When you consider that each DPS is going to do in excess of twice the damage that a tank will deal (try holding aggro with just the Storm's Eye combo and Defiance; Defiance has a 2x enmity modifier so you should be able to match/compete for aggro unless DPS does a crapton more) and that there are twice as many DPS as tanks, that 40 DPS amounts to a whole 2.67% (40/(300+600+600) increase in total damage dealt. In an 8 man group, the difference is even smaller because you've got twice as much DPS.

Furthermore, here's the math for enmity generation.

Tank stances double enmity generation. Crits do not generate any extra enmity beyond that caused by their increased damage.
Halone generates 2050 enmity per cycle pre-tank stance (150 + 200 * 3 + 260 * 5). Put that into the optimized combo and you get 637 enmity per GCD ((2050 * 3 + 220) / 10) before multipliers and additional potency.
Butcher's Block generates 2150 enmity per cycle pre-tank stance (150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5). Storm's Eye generates only 610 (150 + 190 + 270). Put that into the optimized combo and you get 446.15 enmity per GCD ((2150 * 2 +610 * 2 + 280)/13)). (Edit: I'll also include a enmity generation numbers for pure Butcher's Block spam, which is 716.67 enmity per GCD)

(Edit: adding BB>BB>SE numbers)

WAR:
(446.15 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 /.9 * (1 + .0476) * (1 + .0272) * .75 * 2 = 1212.66 enmity potency per GCD

WAR (Butcher's Block only):
(716.67 * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * (1 + .0476) * (1 + .0272) * .75 * 2 = 1370.43 enmity potency per GCD

WAR (BB>BB>SE):
(((2 * (150 + 600 + 1400) / .9 + 610) / 9) * 1.0556 + 83.33 * 1.11) * 1.2 * 1.0476 * 1.0272 * .75 * 2 = 1403.18 enmity potency per GCD

PLD (without WAR):
(637 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 * 2 = 1355.78 enmity potency per GCD

PLD (with WAR):
(637 + 83.33 + 25 + 25) * 1.1 * .8 * 2 / .9 = 1506.70 enmity potency per GCD

Pay no attention to the italicized. It is conclusions derived from from old numbers that I'm leaving for historical perspective.
WARs *do* generate a metric shitton more enmity than a PLD does (this actually surprised me; thanks to the difference in spamming Halone v. alternating BB and SE, I fully expected PLD to win out handily, but the PLD "bonuses" are flat value whereas the WAR bonuses are multipliers so, because baseline enmity generation is higher for both, the bonuses that PLD gets are *heavily* diluted). This is the *only* advantage that WAR has. Of course, a PLD is more than capable of maintaining all of the threat that it might need and redundant enmity is completely pointless: there's no difference between having 1 billion more enmity than the DPS and having 1 more enmity; either way, you have aggro. As such, the "advantage" is less important that it might otherwise be.

Editing in new conclusions:
Apparently my initial belief that PLD is better at enmity generation is supported: PLD *does* generate better enmity per GCD because it gets to spam its high enmity combo ad nauseum. This just makes WAR look even worse: you have to choose between slightly better damage but dramatically worse enmity generation, likely enough to have really good DPS riding your ass nice and hard, or enmity generation that just *barely* edges out PLD along with utterly abysmal DPS. It would be interesting to get a conversion rate between DPS potency value and tank potency value to determine what the relative enmity generation between the two is. As it stands, we can only guess at whether WAR actually has enough to keep aggro off of a mathematically perfect DPS.

Edit after adding BB>BB>SE:
WAR can manage to edge out PLD in solo enmity generation. A PLD with a WAR is still going to match DPS while generating slightly better damage. Really, nothing really changes about the end conclusions since the two classes are still effectively identical. Pointing out the fact that the differences between the two classes are minute, which was the point of all of this, is still completely valid.

P.S. Previous maths I did didn't account for Wrath V and Internal Release, hence the discrepancy with those numbers.
P.S.S Yes, I recognize that I'm reversing my position on enmity generation between the two, but I've got no problem changing my view based upon math and evidence.
P.S.S.S Holy crap, all of that math was fun.
P.S.S.S.S After further revision and correction of numbers, apparently my initial view on enmity generation were correct. No, I'm not flip flopping. I follow the numbers, and we're continually honing them.

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Originally Posted by Sargon

I'm starting to think we need a Yoshi P's facts website!

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Please wait for it.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

Why do so many people keep saying this?
All percentage multipliers inherently scale. Doesn't matter if the percentage multiplier is vitality or damage reduction, both scale.

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I was asking a question, but wouldn't it work like this?

Better gear = better defense/vit for each class (scaling identically all else held constant)
Better weapon = higher attack damage for each. For the WAR this means greater damage and this means greater self-heals, while the PLD gets, what, a small increase to block/block%?
Better weap/gear = PLD keeps the same 20% mitigation

Wouldn't WARs have more to gain from a higher damage weapon at the exact same level? I could be wrong, I was more searching for answers than making a statement though. Thanks for straw-manning me though : D

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Originally Posted by PsychologyPhD

I know that some people are less than satisfied with Yoshi’s response, but how can we( the players) question what the creators( group of people that created the classes/jobs with a direct vision of how it should be played) are saying? I am more interested in what the developers know about warriors that we do not. Maybe we could get a response on how to correctly play the class and see where it goes from there?

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No one else has really said it, so I'll say it. His thoughts on warriors were without substance. He said something very polite about a class that feels like it may be floundering, which is exactly as his culture tends to act. He did not truly address anything except to be a cheerleader... I think he acted as he saw appropriate, but there is a cultural divide at work here. That wasn't even remotely what the NA player base was looking for.

If there really WAS something in the works, like (as an odd example) an add on to our soul stone that would convert our self heals into stacking shields or something, it would have been great if he'd have mentioned that.

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Originally Posted by Kyzr

saving characters

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You're going under a different context.
If you have 25% more health, its roughly the same as having 25% mitigation.
If you have a 15% heal buff, its about the same as having a 20% damage mitigation on top of it.
This does assume, however, that the healer has enough mana and healing power to top you off.
Otherwise, if its a war of attrition, mitigation becomes better.
I genuinely think SE didn't consider healing power/mana, and also did not factor the rest of the mitigation that Paladin receives which gives it much more effective HP in the end.

So while Warrior has greater health, its total eHP is lesser.

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Wouldn't WARs have more to gain from a higher damage weapon at the exact same level?

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This is true for warriors. Better gear > more damage > more self-healing = more tanking viability. So tank survival scaling through gear is in warrior's favor.

The problem is, as you already noted, paladins keep their 20% mitigation. Therefore, both classes' survival improves similarly through gear upgrades prior to incorporating their skill set, but what ends up happening is warrior survival scales with gear/damage, while paladin survival scales with mob damage. And generally speaking for MMOs, mob damage tends to ramp up faster than player damage, particularly for tanks.

There could be a point that, during the same content level, as gear is acquired, warriors surpass paladins, but I don't think that's entirely likely at this point with the current content/mechanics/scaling of our heals to damage. And even if it were, that relegates one class to progression and the other to farm status, which is not good class balance design when both classes are meant to fulfill the same role.

Addonex

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

I was asking a question, but wouldn't it work like this?

Better gear = better defense/vit for each class (scaling identically all else held constant)
Better weapon = higher attack damage for each. For the WAR this means greater damage and this means greater self-heals, while the PLD gets, what, a small increase to block/block%?
Better weap/gear = PLD keeps the same 20% mitigation
Wouldn't WARs have more to gain from a higher damage weapon at the exact same level? I could be wrong, I was more searching for answers than making a statement though. Thanks for straw-manning me though : D

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yes you are wrong,Ifrit Axe, almost full Draklight, Bloodbath gives you abou 40-100HP per hit, StormsPath also bout 100-130 Heal... so, you think a better weapon gives you a better selfheal? Forget it.
Bloodbath Need to be increased to 150%+ StormsPath to 300% and Innerbeast should be even more pushed. and the 15% + Heal on Defiance and increse it to 20%, then Healer maybee feel a diffrence, cuz, right now, Healer feels a shit about our Selfheal.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

P.S.S.S Holy crap, all of that math was fun.

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I will say even as a Paladin, I do enjoy reading your theorycraft and mathematical posts.

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Originally Posted by Addonex

Snip

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Right - so my point would be, with the missing Crystal Tower gear isn't it possible WARs become more viable, as the mob damage has scaled up in Coil, but the player gear hasn't? This gives PLDs the stated edge, as incoming damage has scaled up, but outgoing damage has not which would give WARs a little bit back against PLDs?

I agree that it probably doesn't bridge the whole gap, but it seems like this may mathematically tip the scales a little? Kitru, can you do a quick number crunch? lmao.

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to the game and have no desire discussing the technical aspects of each class. My question is, is yoshi referring to the current state of warriors or a future patched version? I rolled a warrior but after all the talk I see on how inferior they are to paladins for end game tanking, I'm considering a re-roll. I love playing as war but don't wanna waste my time if no one wants them end game.

The problem still lies with the existing % healing values we get through our abilities. Even going from ilvl 70 to full ilvl 90, you're still only netting a very miniscule amount of increased self healing through damage. Further, IB is the only life-tap attack we have that produces healing numbers meaningful to the way most content is designed (that is, needing to recover a lot of health in a short time frame). Bloodbath and Storm's Path just don't do enough to be relevant even if our current damage output doubled (although that'd make IB awesome :P).

Even AE tanking under ideal circumstances isn't all that impressive. In AK, I'll pull 6-9 mobs in certain situations and have our group AE everything down. I'll get Maim up during the train then pop Unchained + Internal Release + Berserk and just go to town Overpowering with Bloodbath up. With 9 mobs I'd be lifetapping for ~500-800 hps every GCD (which I obviously can't keep up forever). But, with 9 mobs wailing on me, I'm requiring constant healing due to the damage. My Overpower spam under these utmost ideal conditions is only helping account for the healing of the damage of maybe 2 of those mobs.

Have a paladin do the same thing, and while they won't be helping kill the pack any faster (Flash no dmg vs. Overpower), they're already taking similar damage as I am using nothing more than their passive stance. Pop any cooldown (I've already used 4, likely 5 or 6 with defensives) and they're now doing double the work mitigating damage compared to my self healing with every cooldown and buff in my arsenal. And they got 4 more oh shit buttons left to spare.

So not only do our self heals need to be brought up (assuming they don't grant us more passive +% incoming heals), but they would then also need to strike a balance between mob damage scaling and player damage scaling for it to not just be a broken balance further down the line.

Addonex

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Kitru, can you do a quick number crunch? lmao.

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I don't have any numbers available to crunch, but I can tell you what it *would* crunch as.

The supposition that WARs scale better with gear is predilected upon one major concept: that weapon damage scales faster than incoming damage. If weapon damage scales slower, WARs actually end up getting *worse* over time because the comparative size of their heals diminishes. If weapon damage scales faster, then, yes, WAR gets better as gear gets better. If it stays the same, there's no advantage whatsoever.

As it stands, in my experiences doing endgame content (which, I'll admit, is limited), damage scales up a *lot* faster than tank damage does. This tends to bear out in other games as well. Much of this is to counteract growing healer resource pools (forcing healers to use less efficient but better throughput heals) because, thanks to the combination of Piety and Mind, there are 2 stats that make healers more effective. If healers were forced to behave in less efficient ways as gear got stronger, healers would have a laughable time (this happened in WoW every time pre-MoP, where the devs standardized resource pools rather than having them be gear dependent; at the end of an expansion, healers could just spam their least cost efficient heals ad nauseum because their resource pools had outstripped the costs of their abilities to such an extent).

As such, I feel safe saying that WAR is going to get *worse* as gear gets stronger. Self heals just don't scale as quickly as everything else. Beyond that, there's nothing gear dependent that WAR gets that PLD doesn't get just as much of. In fact, it's reasonably safe to say that PLD will get stronger as gear gets stronger because Shields are going to get progressively higher Block Rates and Values (which means that they more and more out of Shield mitigation, which means that it's a growing percentage of incoming damage).

I just meant currently. We take the gap that Crystal Tower has left and fill it in with Gear that is better than pre-Coil stuff (just take the 3rd highest dungeon and coil gear and average them) and push that weapon damage factor (and also +determination/+accuracy, what-have-you) into WAR damage stats to see what kind of difference it makes. I was really just joking about actually crunching anything, anyhow : D

I was just suggesting a small portion of the huge gap in Coil could be because of CT gear being out of the game currently.

SE should delete our 25%,50%300% of dmg, and intead of that, % of max HP

Bloodbath heals 3%max HP per hit
Sorms Path Heals 10% max HP
Inner Beast 25% max HP


I know the numbers sounds crazy OP, but think about it. PLD can loweer (besides his Shield Stance) by 20% by 40% and by 100% and can Push his Block by 60% (blocking reduce incoming dmg about 20-24%)

So lets say we have a Warrior with 7000max HP
Bloodbath grants him 30sec with each hit 210HP selfheal 90sec CD.
Stormspath grants him all 9sec. a selfheal for 700HP
Innerbeast grant him 1750 selfheal all 15sec.

Lets say you fight a Boss like ifrit, he hugs you with standart hit about 1000-1200, sometimes 2000 and rock does 4500.
The "selfheal" right now ist just a joke to conter These dmg.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

I just meant currently. We take the gap that Crystal Tower has left and fill it in with Gear that is better than pre-Coil stuff (just take the 3rd highest dungeon and coil gear and average them) and push that weapon damage factor (and also +determination/+accuracy, what-have-you) into WAR damage stats to see what kind of difference it makes. I was really just joking about actually crunching anything, anyhow : D

I was just suggesting a small portion of the huge gap in Coil could be because of CT gear being out of the game currently.

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AF2 is currently available and on-par with Allagan which is from Bahamut's Coil. Coil > CT

CT gear isn't likely to make a huge difference as it's most likely on-par with DL.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Words

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So you neglected to take into account of Unchained and Vengeance during tanking? What about enmity/damage against multiple mobs? Overpowered damage vs Circle of Scorn

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

SE should delete our 25%,50%300% of dmg, and intead of that, % of max HP

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Unless bosses continue to deal the same percentage of total hp with their attacks, it's going to simply scale worse. All you're doing by doing that is transferring the existing self-heal scaling from Str/Det/Acc/Crit all on to Vit. The same problems would still exist.

What needs to happen is either the +healing we receive increased (since incoming healing *does* scale with incoming damage) or have out self heals restore hp based upon the amount of damage take over the last X seconds. If we're going to have self heals, they need to scale with *incoming damage*, not gear.

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Originally Posted by wlakiz

So you neglected to take into account of Unchained and Vengeance during tanking? What about enmity/damage against multiple mobs? Overpowered damage vs Circle of Scorn

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Unchained is a *terrible* thing to use as a WAR: it eats your Wrath stacks while simultaneously preventing you from using Inner Beast. If you're using Unchained, you're reducing your mitigation.

Vengeance is a wonky ability because the damage it provides is dependent upon taking physical damage. As such, Stoneskin and Adloquium reduce its value. On top of that, it's on a really long CD.

Assuming 2.5 seconds between incoming attacks (doesn't happen in my experience; bosses tend to use magic/cast time attacks often enough that the incoming rate goes significantly), you'd be getting 6 ticks off of Vengeance every 48 GCDs. At 50 potency per tick, that's 6.25 additional baseline potency/GCD. On top of that, I'm not sure that Vengeance can crit, which could reduce the value of it further. The only time you'll really get a lot out of Vengeance is when you're AoE tanking with physical damage targets.

AoE damage and enmity are a more complex question than you might think. The PLD AoEs are effectively free: CoS has no cost and Flash costs MP. Overpower, on the other hand, is expensive as hell. If you use it more than 2-3 times, you're completely demolishing your TP, which means you're going to have empty GCDs when punching the boss later on. On top of that, Overpower deals laughable damage compared to DPS AoEs and has a much smaller area of effect.

This is further complicated by the vagaries of Flash's enmity generation. Supposedly, it doesn't scale with gear, is unaffected by Shield Oath, and all sorts of other factors that would render it effectively worthless. Getting answers to those questions would go a fair way towards putting some numbers down.

There are a *lot* more balancing factors associated with AoE enmity/damage than there are for single target damage/enmity. The reason I don't do the math for them is largely because it's a *lot* more math involved coupled with a *lot* of missing information.

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Originally Posted by Ghostagent151

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to the game and have no desire discussing the technical aspects of each class. My question is, is yoshi referring to the current state of warriors or a future patched version? I rolled a warrior but after all the talk I see on how inferior they are to paladins for end game tanking, I'm considering a re-roll. I love playing as war but don't wanna waste my time if no one wants them end game.

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The reality is that Yoshi is being intentionally mysterious with his comments on future class balance. Which makes sense, what do you think this community would do if he just came out and said "We're buffing this class to Godtier status in one month!"? So we'll find out what happens to Warrior the day it happens and no sooner.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Unless bosses continue to deal the same percentage of total hp with their attacks, it's going to simply scale worse. The same problems would still exist.

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Just like to point out that having our self heals scale based on Max HP would scale better. Assuming you get hit for 1000 per hit with 5000 HP you are taking 20% of your HP per hit. Using his example Inner Beast would heal 25% OR 1250. Now say you geared up some more for VIT and your max HP is now 7000 and you still get hit for 1000 because your overall mitigation hasn't changed. The monster is doing less % of your max HP per hit now while your self heals still scale off your new max HP. So you are receiving less HP% damage from the monster while increasing your HP% recovered through heals. Monster would only hit for ~14.3% of your Max HP while Inner Beast still heals for 25% which is now 1750.

Just by sheer virtue of increasing your max HP you are lowering the %HP damage dealt by a monster.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

Just like to point out that having our self heals scale based on Max HP would scale better. Assuming you get hit for 1000 per hit with 5000 HP you are taking 20% of your HP per hit. Using his example Inner Beast would heal 25% OR 1250. Now say you geared up some more for VIT and your max HP is now 7000 and you still get hit for 1000 because your overall mitigation hasn't changed. The monster is doing less % of your max HP per hit now while your self heals still scale off your new max HP. So you are receiving less HP% damage from the monster while increasing your HP% recovered through heals. Monster would only hit for ~14.3% of your Max HP while Inner Beast still heals for 25% which is now 1750.

Just by sheer virtue of increasing your max HP you are lowering the %HP damage dealt by a monster.

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Its the same thing as you can do now... Increase your damage output increases your self-heals, the only difference is you are basing the healing on max HP and the % of damage a boss does to you. You are still taking the same amount of damage no matter what the % of you total HP it may be. So as far as incoming heals are effected its a wash...(sure your way your Max HP gives you better self-heals so now you are 100% vit dependent vs being damage dependent, still does not change the fact that you are still stat dependent and your mitigation only scales with your stats where paladins mitigation scales with boss damage)

They really just need to give warriors +25% healing (either by adding a 10-15% base% heals on defiance and leaving wrath the same or moving it all(+25%) to defiance so we can at least start at the same point as paladins (as far as survivability from tank stance).

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Originally Posted by Derza

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It's not the same. Increasing your damage sacrifices increasing your max HP. (Speccing STR instead of VIT, STR Accessories etc.) Increasing your damage does not reduce the total %HP loss you take from boss attacks it only increase the %HP you heal from self heals. Example you are VIT stacking and have 5k HP and bosses hit you for 1k. You take 20% HP per hit. Your Inner Beast does 900 for 18% of your max HP. Now you change and start stacking STR. Your HP is now 4k and bosses still hit you for 25% of your max HP. Your inner beast now heals for 1000 for 25% of max HP. You increased your %HP return but also increased your %HP damage recieved. You are now also more vulnerable to large "1-shot" type moves because you sacrificed HP for more sustain.

If our self heals scaled based on max HP you could simultaneously increase your sustain while decreasing the % of HP damage you receive. Would actually give Thrill of Battle some utility besides just a snap heal. With Thrill of battles HP buff up your other self heals would increase as well. Would be like our own Convalescence.

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Originally Posted by Derza

They really just need to give warriors +25% healing (either by adding a 10-15% base% heals on defiance and leaving wrath the same or moving it all(+25%) to defiance so we can at least start at the same point as paladins (as far as survivability from tank stance).

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I think 10% passive in addition to Wrath would be fair.

Foresight and Bloodbath could use buffs too. Foresight should give bonus Magic Defense as well, and it should go up to 30% traited. Bloodbath should be a high impact cooldown rather than a weak and long one. What if it was 100% life steal for 8 seconds?

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

Just like to point out that having our self heals scale based on Max HP would scale better.

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to change our selfheal based on Max hp definitely scales better than on dmg potency.

i just got my af2 chest, my hp jumped up around 250 while my dmg didnt seem to change much.

What if Wrath gave us a bit more +defense? Move the bonus healing to a passive of Defiance and make Wrath provide X% more defense per stack? Say 1 - 2% per stack (5 - 10% total), that would give warriors the bonus healing to accommodate the larger health pools and do a bit to make us a little sturdier without taking away the flavor of the class or homogenizing us with Paladins. Not sure if this idea has been brought up before or not.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

It's not the same.

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It is the same in the fact that we will not scale with incoming damage, making paladins always better at harder content. Unless SE makes it so the HP increase a tank can get is linear to the amount of damage bosses do(and this is pretty much impossible unless they make all boss content exactly the same) we will never be balanced with paladins. The fundamental flaw with warrior is how our mitigation is 100% warrior based(ok maybe not 100% due to wrath stacks giving up to 15% healing - but close enough to make no difference) where as paladins mitigation is 100% incoming damage based(20% reduction in damage from stance + all CD's are % based damage reduction).

Oh and stacking str adds to your parry % damage redcution so that also helps... i know its very very little but its something - This is also something that should be considered... maybe adding a 2x or even 3x parry chance modifier on defiance (or even just a passive trait)- this would even out the advantage paladins have with shields + parry chance. I think this would work well with the idea of self healing being based on damage output - so adding to damage output would also add to mitigation (in a way that might be noticeable vs what it is now where we have maybe a 10% parry chance and when you parry you take 23-25% less damage whichs ends up being ~2% physical damage reduction)

lets check DK's deathstrike again

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Focuses dark power into a strike that deals 185% weapon damage plus 499 to an enemy and heals you for 20% of the damage you have sustained from non-player sources during the preceding 5 sec (minimum of at least 7% of your maximum health). This attack cannot be parried.

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Originally Posted by The_Brute

What if Wrath gave us a bit more +defense? Move the bonus healing to a passive of Defiance and make Wrath provide X% more defense per stack? Say 1 - 2% per stack (5 - 10% total), that would give warriors the bonus healing to accommodate the larger health pools and do a bit to make us a little sturdier without taking away the flavor of the class or homogenizing us with Paladins. Not sure if this idea has been brought up before or not.

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sorry defense dont scale much at all.
ilv90 gloves give 113defense and ilv70 heavy darklight gloves give 109defense, whooping increased only by 4 (3%)with 20 itemlevel difference.

Cyndi Lauper:
When the gearing is done
WARs - they want to tank
Oh WARs just want to tank,
They want to tank,
They want to tank...

That's all they really want~!


Rockwell:
I always feel like somebody's watchin me
When I tank it's so pricey
I always feel like somebody's watchin me
Who just cast cure on me!?


Carly Rae:
Hey I just met you,
And this is crazy,
But I'm a WAR,
So let me tank it maybe?

Mungo Jerry:
In the binding coil when the damage is high
You can stretch wrath out and touch bloodbath
When the healer's fine
You got tanking, you got tanking on your mind
Have a slip, take a dive
Go out and see why Paladin's got healers on their side

Queen:
I'm having such a good time!
Hitting them all!
Don't stop me now!
If you wanna lose hate,
Just give me a call!

-

How do you think I'm gonna get along without you when you're gone?
You cured me for everything you had, and kicked me out on my own!

Are you happy? Are you satisfied? How long did you think I could stand the heat?
Out of the corner Ifrit rips, to the sound of the beat!

Ah take it!

Another tank bites the dust.

And another one gone, and another one gone, and another one gone

Another one bites the dust!

Hey! Gonna get you you too! WHM bites the dust!



@Yoshi P

Diana Ross:
Stop! In the name of WAR
Before you break my class
Stop! In the name of WAR
Before you break my class
Think it over
Think it over

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Originally Posted by hola

lets check DK's deathstrike again

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dont forget the "stoneskin" effect that deathstrike grants to DK (50% of healed by Deathstrike ,based on mastery stat)

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Originally Posted by Pinch

What if it was 100% life steal for 8 seconds?

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It should be at least 100% and permanent.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

dont forget the "stoneskin" effect that deathstrike grants to DK (50% of healed by Deathstrike ,based on mastery stat)

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ah yes
..

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Each time you heal yourself with Death Strike while in Blood Presence, you gain 50% of the amount healed as a Physical damage absorption shield.

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