Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Lol, I doubt they would exposit the golden land that is JP FL and que sync together if they didn't want better quality games. Some groups do just want to grind their achievements and roll over others. They have crystal for now, but I'd prefer that this just wasn't an option for them. I don't know why you're jabbing at me though XD. I have my guide posted everywhere relevant, and try to spread the good word. I'd keep it to myself if I just wanted to farm easy wins. Finally, my FC is focused on FL commanding so I don't have to command (please get good at calling so I can dance and black mage, thank you everyone.)


Guide Link: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/

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My "jabbing" is hopefully perceived more as friendly banter than malice. I suspect I do it because I regard your guide as a menace that will take FL into a worse place. I've presented my reasons, you disagree. All good.

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

It would be interesting to see how other DCs play and how well I adapt to differences in playstyle. Not sure how bad the latency would be, but I don't know until I try and I'll certainly give it my best effort!

Here, I've found that matches have improved a little recently, but still depends on how fortunate you are with your queues. At one point, premades were in practically in every game, with a couple of premades in particular becoming widely recognised for their obvious use of voice chat, use of DRK-RPR-DRG-DRG combo, and for being highly arrogant in games (responding to conflicting calls/team unrest in ways such as "Do you have a 90% win rate? No? Well I do, so shut up and do as I say"). Over time, this approach hasn't won them favour amongst many random players and, as a result, I see more and more negative responses aimed at them, both from their allies and opponents. More recently, I see those particular teams less often. Premades are still a common sight, but it doesn't compare to how the problem used to be (I hope I haven't jinxed it with that sentence!)

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I have a feeling I know who you're talking about. This is an old screenshot, but I have a feeling you're talking about the players from Adders Team B.

https://lds-img.finalfantasyxiv.com/...3c710e7f57.jpg

I played with a EU alt against them, they're definitely skilled and very experienced players. Had a lot of fun matches against them when I'm cooking a new strategy with different jobs and notice their shenanigans (mind you I'm also solo). I won against them twice in a row and then they stopped queueing (probably due to timezone difference at the time). A shame, really. I had a lot of fun adapting to whatever type of strategy they came up with. Fighting against good players helped me improve on jobs I don't play much to develop a playstyle for them.

That must've been a helluva match. I've never seen a DRK in a premade hit anything like 17/0/121 and lose! Congratz on thwarting them.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

just made it to 55% the other day. Even before running premades and doing light calls I still had a respectable 40~ percent.

I take your comment to mean you don't support rewards for participating in a pvp mode? Also, thanks for leaving out the part about captures XD. If someone got an extra .25% of a level, a .5%for a kill, and maybe 1% for a capture do you think there would be less participation or more? Add in a multiplayer for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd like x1.5, x1.25, and x1.0, would people try to win? You could even have the exp gain show up in the log for a bit of dopamine. I don't see why you shouldn't reward the people doing more. My own personal performance isn't that much different with or without a premade, it really only changes the win rate. That's mostly due to drk facilitating damage more than actually doing it.

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So if you've gone from 40% to 55% since running premades (and the 55% includes that pre-premade oh good grief phase), your win% as a premade is well above 55%? And you wonder why people push back?? But enough. I had an idea for this rewards business.

I was thinking more about your quantitative approach and believe you're on the right track, but there's this issue with job-to-job variations. So I came up with the following. It's called JeRCJobI (Jessa's Revolutionary Cross-Job Index).

For each map, SE has a massive database of K/D/A and damage dealt (which we'll call X) for each job. It can therefore determine an objective distribution of all FL job performance, perhaps using an expression of the form:

aK + bA + cX - dD

calculated for each job in every match. Doesn't need to be linear, obviously, but I can't think of a reason why it shouldn't.

Here a, b, c and d are all positive, and roughly you'd set a ~ d, b ~ a/5, and c ~ a/100,000. Give or take.

For each job, this will produce a distribution - likely a Gaussian thanks to the Central Limit Theorem - which is handy because Gaussians are lovely to work with and it's trivial to identify those in the top 10%, 25%, 50%, and so forth. Or if you preferred less granularity and just wanted to award rewards based on "bad," "average" and "good," you could use the inter-quartile range instead.

Since healers do still bravely heal sometimes, their index could include a health restored term.

Absolutely trivial to code and ensures each player in a given match is rewarded based on how well they played their job relative to the population as a whole.

Effort-based rewards would only result in there being even more premades than there already are, (until most people got their rewards and quit playing). At this point we'd be better off with a PvP mode that is premade vs premade instead, while gating the rewards behind that. You essentially get the same effect at the end of the day with fewer development resources. Or win-traders, but you won't ever stop that.

I do not want to be forced onto a party dedicated queue when I just want to casually queue up with my friends just because some premade meta is ruining everything... Imagine queueing up with your casual friends and end up in a sweaty tryhard party only game full of premades... That's the worst idea ever, unless your aim is just to kill casual groups.

Also, while I like the idea in concept, beware of the unintended effects of proportionally attributing rewards on placement and performance. As soon as people see that the premade death ball is in the other teams and not theirs, they might just give up entirely and stop playing to make the game end faster.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

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Quite possibly. I wouldn't say that any premade setup is particularly 'skilled' (as mentioned in my previous posts) but I wouldn't doubt that they've spent a lot of time in FLs. We have had a few decent premades recently, but they don't seem quite as active as they were in the past, in which they appeared to be queuing for games for hours throughout the afternoon and evening - just typical that that was the point in which I was trying to get the Seal Rock coat on my alt, but I'll keep that grudge to myself :p
The k/a scores look fairly consistent with an average game of theirs.

It certainly poses a challenge and when I realise I'm playing against them my personal goal changes instantly from: win the game > stop them winning. From calling with early warnings and marking the DRK to trying classes I wouldn't normally play in PvP (like RPR) purely to try to hinder them as much as possible. Sadly, though, in such cases it ultimately requires a premade of your own or a 2v1 focus of both random alliances vs the premade to keep their score down to a level that the opportunity to win is open and balanced for all teams. Sometimes this does work (and I have noticed it happening a little more frequently now that these premades have become so widely recognised), but it only takes a single random alliance to not get the message and to continue with the game as if it were a normal match or to do worse and decide to help farm the other random alliance purely to get 2nd place for themselves, and this all falls to pieces.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

Effort-based rewards would only result in there being even more premades than there already are, (until most people got their rewards and quit playing). At this point we'd be better off with a PvP mode that is premade vs premade instead, while gating the rewards behind that. You essentially get the same effect at the end of the day with fewer development resources. Or win-traders, but you won't ever stop that.

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Yes, very likely, hence my preferred solution of dual queues.

Besides, performance-based rewards are antithetical to FF14. Good gravy, do it for FL people might expect it in raids and dungeons. Not gonna happen.

Tbh JeRCJobI is what happens when the FL queue dries up of an evening.

But it would provide a road-map towards a matchmaking algorithm. Valence, does that help address your desire to queue with friends while avoiding the voice premades? Because without a massive change in LBs and skillsets, there will always be a premade meta while queues are mixed. All that will change with tweaking is the comp.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

Effort-based rewards would only result in there being even more premades than there already are, (until most people got their rewards and quit playing). At this point we'd be better off with a PvP mode that is premade vs premade instead, while gating the rewards behind that. You essentially get the same effect at the end of the day with fewer development resources. Or win-traders, but you won't ever stop that.

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When everyone is a premade, no one is. In all seriousness, it doesn't take much for a solo player to go from underperforming to decent to above average. There's just no reason to do so right now.

A premade's strength comes from a willingness to work together and perform well. Instilling this in the average player would quickly allow them to catch up.

I think premade vs premade would just be a dead que, and solo only inspires more mediocrity.

look i understand the reason/or reasons "why" people do what they do with the premades
coordinated/voice chat or whatnot work together do objectives win alot and having fun is good for everyone

but surely that wont cause/or have caused bigger issues for the pug/s more than what we already have seen
or just break queue sync to not work and you and me probably wont see those premade guys again(a big IF tho)

tho my issue is with premades existing in frontlines only(i dont play ranked)
that and some of the pugs who fight the premade(guys with lot of battle high 4 or 5 blue in one of my my games today) over the 2nd high score team(maelstrom/red)
half were busy dying to blue teams coordinated lb/stun stacking while red gets a free big ice
what happens in the end blue wins because my team chose to get lowscore third and engage them and not red(and not get the big ice to catch up)

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

When everyone is a premade, no one is. In all seriousness, it doesn't take much for a solo player to go from underperforming to decent to above average. There's just no reason to do so right now.

A premade's strength comes from a willingness to work together and perform well. Instilling this in the average player would quickly allow them to catch up.

I think premade vs premade would just be a dead que, and solo only inspires more mediocrity.

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That's 50% nonsense and you know it. Members of a semi-static premade will of course have a willingness to work together, otherwise the premade would never have formed! And anyone with that level of organization and commitment isn't going to go to all that trouble then stink up the place. The power of a premade comes from the specific combination of jobs (as described explicitly in your own guide), and the fact that LB coordination in FL is devastating.

You don't instill these principles in the average player by curb-stomping them, you instill cynicism and defeatism in all but the handful that choose to form their own premade, thereby deepening the current crisis.

Part of performing well and working together is choosing a job that performs well.

Would I rather all the jobs be equally viable. Sure, but until that happens I think finding a job that suits you and viable in the meta is the best option.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

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By all means, encourage the raising of the skill floor for players in PvP; whether it be through general PvP or FL-specific linkshells or large online groups in which new players can join and get advice from veteran PvP players, or through NN, or other guides.

But I am adamant that premades are not the way to do this. For the most part, I have seen it have very much the opposite effect, with such premade teams pushing players away from FLs and inciting a defeatist 'why bother? Just end it fast' approach which is already an existing issue.
Yes, take a prominent commanding role, do well within FLs, inspire others in your success, and emphasise their ability to achieve the same success with practice.

But to repeatedly crush them under heel? To utilise advantages such as voice chat and a coordinated premade team to obliterate opponents to the point that there is very, very little that they can do (aside from a full game of 2v1 or premade formation of their own)? To render your other alliance members meaningless, only there to fight over the scraps that remain?
They will ultimately come to the conclusion that FL is not for solo players and that they have no influence upon the outcome, unable to compete without a coordinated premade of their own. A few very competitive players might be driven by that desire to make life hard for the premade and force them into a loss, but many players will not. It will push a larger proportion into a defeatist attitude of 'who cares? They will win, we can't do anything. Let's just end it and get out'.
This isn't particularly helped by the toxic and arrogant approach that many premade teams seem to quickly develop, in which beginner players who may want to give a try/get practice at commanding etc. instantly get shut down with "I have a huge win rate, you don't, so shut up". That isn't promoting learning whatsoever, it's just arrogance.

All in all, yes, you can push for better. But push too hard and you're doing the opposite

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Part of performing well and working together is choosing a job that performs well.

Would I rather all the jobs be equally viable. Sure, but until that happens I think finding a job that suits you and viable in the meta is the best option.

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Agreed, but I don't see the relevance. Besides, a premade completely changes the relative value of jobs compared to solo. Job selection is based almost entirely on LB coordination. As I said, this is explicitly stated in your guide. One advantage of playing solo is it makes far more jobs viable.

What is your ultimate goal here? How many premades do you want to see in a typical match? And is there any number of solo players telling you they find playing in matches with a premade to be tedious that might sway you from this messianic mission?

Currently on Aether, would you agree about half the matches contain one premade? If so, that suggests the number of players adopting that playstyle (weighted for volume) is less than 3% of the population. Why should such a tiny fraction of players dictate how the mode is played, particularly when it directly conflicts with the wishes of the majority?

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Originally Posted by Scintilla

This isn't particularly helped by the toxic and arrogant approach that many premade teams seem to quickly develop, in which beginner players who may want to give a try/get practice at commanding etc. instantly get shut down with "I have a huge win rate, you don't, so shut up". That isn't promoting learning whatsoever, it's just arrogance.

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I completely agree with your entire post, but since I've been accused of jabbing at Olivia (only when playing DRG, honest, bdum tsssk), I feel I should mention the following in the context of the quote above.

While I had to blacklist Olivia due to noise overload, before that she was mostly polite. I recall one occasion when she said something snotty and then one of her premade comrades chimed in with something worse, so I just left. But that was very much an exception.

After long 5 pages of debate and we basically still reach the conclusion that there is no resolution for this Ouroboros relationship.

I don't really care about how many premades are in a match. I want people to coordinate.

I want darks having salt timers and countdowns for when they pull.

I want dancers, warriors and reapers alerting their LBs are ready.

I want the burst jobs to be right behind them ready to go.

I want the Monks, ninjas, and white mages locking down key targets.

People locking their full map open and watching their behinds for pinches.

Tbh, I can't relate to how many people are actually giving up and being defeatist on aether. I can say that those people have probably been on my team, seen my macros, and could do these exact things with or without a premade to similar effect. I don't use voice, I don't use anything outside the game.

Even if you somehow get your wish for a pure solo que. Your complaint will simply change from "the team with the premade" to "the team most willing to act like one."

I don't understand your point about majorities. If 99% of people thought the sun orbits the earth, it doesn't make it true (this is also true in reverse.) It is evidance that dictates truth, and it should be evident that the way premades play is superior for achieving the intended goal of FL (winning.)

It's not like premades are abusing mechanics the designers didn't intend. PVP has always been centered around burst. In feast, in old FL, in CC, and in the current FL. You could perhaps argue it has never been as easy as it is now, but I'm not sure I'd agree.

In any case, it is the mechanics of a game that dicate how it should be played, not the players. The players will need to discover and learn how to utilize those mechanics, but they are going to be there regardless of if players buy into them or not.

It sounds like to me what some are looking for is "Ranked Frontlines with rewards" without directly saying it. I guess something like the Crystal Conflict's Bronze - Crystal system could work in Frontlines, albeit not without its flaws.

Funnily enough, it's already ranked.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

I don't understand your point about majorities. If 99% of people thought the sun orbits the earth, it doesn't make it true (this is also true in reverse.) It is evidance that dictates truth, and it should be evident that the way premades play is superior for achieving the intended goal of FL (winning.)

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If 97% of players dislike a playstyle, any game developer worth their salt will satisfy them and not a tiny minority who seem hell-bent on imposing their will upon others. Suggesting there is some objectively-correct playstyle through a bizarre analogy with celestial mechanics is pure sophistry.

As to the goal being winning, true but only in a sense. People play games to have fun. If winning involves playing in boring matches, I want no part of it. Playing solo on the team with a premade is boring. I'd far prefer to have a 33% win-rate for perpetuity and actually have something meaningful and enjoyable to do than get carried by a premade.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

If 97% of players dislike a playstyle, any game developer worth their salt will satisfy them and not a tiny minority who seem hell-bent on imposing their will upon others. Suggesting there is some objectively-correct playstyle through a bizarre analogy with celestial mechanics is pure sophistry.

As to the goal being winning, true but only in a sense. People play games to have fun. If winning involves playing in boring matches, I want no part of it. Playing solo on the team with a premade is boring. I'd far prefer to have a 33% win-rate for perpetuity and actually have something meaningful and enjoyable to do than get carried by a premade.

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I was trying to explain how your argument uses an ad populum fallacy. Sorry if that did not come across. I'm not certain I would call it objectively-correct, but I could argue that it is the developers' intended style of play.

They may not have crafted each job for FL, but they're aware that:

-you can que as 1-4 players
-you can use the chat
-you can use macros
-you can mark enemies and allies
-you can place markers on the field
-you can open and lock you map
-etc etc

The developers, in theory, are designing the mode with the idea that these things are being used. If they weren't, you'd see a much different gamemode.

I do not remember who said it, but I agree with them. The developers should make what they want. Design with passion and not cater to masses. They have enkigh types od content for it to work. 97% of people don't do ultimates, so should the developers change the design? 90% don't do savage, should they change the design? What fraction of the player base is big on deep dungeons? Should they change it?

As for fun... I try to align my enjoyment with a game (and any activity really) from what it wants to achieve because they are not always trying to achieve "fun." I'm enjoying FL the most when I win because the goal is winning. I understand that's. It something everyone can do. I don't understand your reasoning because I find the interactions I have in FL very meaningful and enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

The developers, in theory, are designing the mode with the idea that these things are being used. If they weren't, you'd see a much different gamemode.

I do not remember who said it, but I agree with them. The developers should make what they want. Design with passion and not cater to masses. They have enkigh types od content for it to work. 97% of people don't do ultimates, so should the developers change the design? 90% don't do savage, should they change the design? What fraction of the player base is big on deep dungeons? Should they change it?

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Is not one purpose of these boards for players to express their opinions in the hope the developers might listen and "develop" the game to a more pleasing state?

97% of players don't do ultimates. So are you suggesting the 97% of players who don't want to play in a premade should just leave FL? Because otherwise your argument makes no sense. I'm all for niche content. More options are better. That's completely different from ignoring the vast majority of players who are currently playing a mode. We're not talking about the X% of the player base who don't play FL. We're talking about 97% of the current population that does play FL.

I've told you before I understand why you run a premade and advocate for others joining the cult. It is, indeed, the most effective way of boosting win-rate. I've outlined why I believe this works against the very goal you purport to be seeking in a higher skill floor. But that's not what this argument is about.

Nowhere is it written on stone tablets that FL must allow light parties. In principle, the queue could be solo only, light party, full party or complete 24-person alliance. The key debate here is which is the best option. We've reached different conclusions on that point, but since I can think of no way to determine the "correct" maximum party size, I don't think it's unreasonable to default to how people actually play the mode. Which is around 97% solo.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

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All of which would be ideal and make a very good team. I agree that everyone doing this would make for a highly enjoyable and challenging FL. It can arguably be done with a premade (on a smaller extent), but that doesn't remotely create a 'highly enjoyable or challenging FL' - it just results in one team completely and repeatedly destroying the others, which in turn, pushes more and more players away from FLs and makes that dream of improving player standards and ability in FL less and less likely to happen.


I don't wish for a solo queue, personally, I would prefer it if that wasn't the solution. PvP can be quite daunting to some new players, not least because it sadly has a reputation for being a more toxic and competitive area of many multiplayer games. Some new players might be more willing to join if they could go with a friend or FC member for support.


The evidence they see (over and over and over again) is that coordinated premade teams win by a large margin with their opponents being able to do little to nothing about it.

They see that solo players/random teams lose repeatedly, despite their best efforts.

They see that they themselves are unable to make a difference in stopping premade teams, everything they try doesn't seem to work, and they have no effect on the outcome of the game.


Perhaps it's your own drive to master FLs which gives a slightly tainted perspective. They don't look at technique - how can they? They're dead in seconds before many of them even noticed the danger incoming. These are new or infrequent players.

Those more experienced players who do recognise the danger early and are more aware of the techniques, either managed to escape or got caught via stun/bottleneck/delay etc. (and with a RPR in the premade that means death, Guard or not). If they escaped, great. Now they're alone and able to do nothing solo vs a full BH5 team anyway.
I'm not saying 'go easy on them'. As I said: offer to command, lead the team to a win, demonstrate your success, give advice/teaching wherever you can, encourage them if they want to try commanding or just a new class. Still play a good game, but do it in a way which is common/accessible play to all, by commanding the random alliance - not via a premade which requires friendship-links with frequent FLers and a microphone...
To repeatedly crush them, over and over and over again, using such advantages (experienced friends, voice chat etc.) will only push more and more players away as they lose hope.

This isn't necessarily directed at you, but at premades in general.

The developers should make what they\\'re passionate about, and use feedback to refine those ideas. I don\\'t feel like this is happening. I think they\\'re catering to people first and trying to design around that catering.

I feel the need to lightly remind you that your "97%" is a completly baseless number. Even if it were true, how many of those people\\'s opinions should actively be cared about? Should developers care about bots? Afkers? Feeders? People only there for exp? People with grayed out bars? If you took FL off the roulette it\\'d pop as often as rival wings does... basically never. I\\'m glad it\\'s there because it\\'s a mode I greatly enjoy.

You keep harping on about me suggesting to premade. This snippet is the only part that even mentions them:

"Frontlines allows you to que as a light party. I always recommend partying up with fellow pvpers.This ensures you have people that listen to calls, are fairly competent players, or at the very least are fun to play with. While you can always simply play what you want here are some sample team comps that synergize well with each other."

My guide is not for premades. It is for everyone. Anyone can put a macro on and ask for someone to play dark, reaper, or Dragoon. I am not suggesting premades do this strategy. I am suggesting everyone takes part. I personally recommend playing in a premade because a vast majority (let\\'s say 97%) can\\'t be bothered to tell others their LB is up, salted earth is off cd, a pinch is incoming, or a new node has spawned.

Make it solo of you want. I don\\'t really care, but it won\\'t fix your issue. Your issue, which has been stated multiple times, is that layering lbs is to effective. You don\\'t need a premade for this. I laid out how to do it. It doesn\\'t require pinpoint precision and God like apm and situational awareness. It requires at least 4 people willing to say something in chat. Making all those premades go solo is just changing premade parties every match with others.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Make it solo of you want. I don\\'t really care, but it won\\'t fix your issue. Your issue, which has been stated multiple times, is that layering lbs is to effective. You don\\'t need a premade for this. I laid out how to do it. It doesn\\'t require pinpoint precision and God like apm and situational awareness. It requires at least 4 people willing to say something in chat. Making all those premades go solo is just changing premade parties every match with others.

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Please don't tell me what "my issue" is. I'm pretty sure I'm going to know that better than you, particularly when your further rationalization is honestly laughable. Premades are different to solo players who coordinate. That's presumably why you play in a premade and have a 55% win-rate? When I play in games without a premade I have a far more enjoyable time that when a premade is present. That is my personal experience. Telling me I'm wrong is rude. Further transgressions of this nature and I'm going to start giving you fashion advice.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The power of a premade comes from the specific combination of jobs (as described explicitly in your own guide), and the fact that LB coordination in FL is devastating

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Have I misquoted you? Apologies if so. I will reiterate that a solo que would do very little to fix good players coordinating and stomping bad players.

I don't think you could diss a maid outfit, but you're welcome to have a go at it.

For the other things, as I said, if I could get a good dark following up, a guard break that calls out there ready, and a dps who knows their burst then I wouldn't really need a team. I still would because they're genuinely nice people I like hanging out with, but I wouldn't need one to have a high chance of success.

I'm gonna also note that my calls drastically improved after meeting deneb, switched to Dark, put a marker on my head, and started getting everyone following me around.

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Have I misquoted you? Apologies if so. I will reiterate that a solo que would do very little to fix good players coordinating and stomping bad players.

I don't think you could diss a maid outfit, but you're welcome to have a go at it.

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And you know better than most that the application of that power is far easier and more effective with a premade than with randos!!! Why else would your win-rate rocket from 40% to 55%? C'mon.

You've certainly made the maid-outfit look your own, but it's not affixed with glue. And the aesthetician is only 2,000 gil. You have a spring complexion and fall hair, sugar.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

And you know better than most that the application of that power is far easier and more effective with a premade than with randos!!! Why else would your win-rate rocket from 40% to 55%? C'mon.

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Isn't that only because random players aren't necessarily receptive to working together? See: Sandbaggers and people who give up instantly. Also randos can be new or just don't care about the game mode and want exp. Hence the chances of getting randoms who is receptive to working together is lower.

That's not something premades can't have. Premades are essentially just 4 players who are more receptive to playing together and working together. It's nothing to do with skill levels. There's plenty of terrible premades out there, but they tend to go unnoticed because they barely have an impact compared to your regular solo players.

The only premades that tend to stand out are ones who have higher skill levels or work together to develop a particular strategy. If they are a problem, then it means you simply don't like players who are skilled and working together -- which is .. an odd take considering winning in Frontlines wants people to be coordinating together. There isn't necessarily an in-game advantage premades get that solo players don't have. Solo players can do the exact same thing if they really wanted to, but they don't because they're not as receptive to the concept. This problem isn't really an issue in JP because people are particularly receptive to working together. It's more of a mentality issue in NA and EU.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

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Let's break down those points.

You claim I "simply don't like players who are skilled and working together." This is completely untrue and to suggest it has put you on my fashion advice list. It's an absurd assumption that doesn't follow from anything I've said. I would love to see more cooperation between random players, and I agree it can (and should) occur. My primary complaints about (good) premades, which I've repeated ad nauseum at this point, are:1. I find them extremely dull to play with, and often oppressive to play against, largely because... 2. They encourage defeatism among many players who don't cooperate at all and become little more than someone riding a horse watching others PvP. The second point can be debated, I guess. The first can't because that is my experience of the game. My enjoyment is reduced by the presence of premades.

You claim that solo players can do "the exact same thing" that a premade can. I'll accept that you believe this, but I genuinely cannot understand how anyone could reach this conclusion.

Let's take voice out of the equation for a moment (although it's clear many Discord-based premades use it). How might my experience as the leader of a premade differ from playing solo and trying to emulate a premade?

A premade can:

1. Fix the comp pregame for a classic stack and likely play those individual roles repeatedly, thereby learning the cadence and style of their party members.
2. Discuss more granular strategies than simply "follow the DRK dive, then break guard, deal damage..." as per the jobs each are playing.
3. Not only alert their party members of LB and CD status, but discuss pregame the time management of same.
4. Agree the details of the burst. (I dutifully mark DRKs and trail around after them as WAR. The details of the dive vary between DRKs; pre-dive pause and positioning; location of central target, and so on.)
5. ... Since I've never played in a premade I imagine I'm missing other advantages. Where's that maid?

You'll hopefully notice that some of the points I've already listed cannot be done with pugs, but let's look in more detail at how I might mimic a premade when solo queueing.

First, it's probably easier if I play as DRK. This is already a major concession, I don't play DRK. But "win at all costs," right? Okay, I'll play DRK.

Overflow...

Queue pops. 45 seconds.

Re-center map, mount, drop a triangle on my head. 38 seconds.

See what jobs I have on my team. Two DRGs awesome! I start typing to ask if they want to play premade dress-up and before I've hit enter they both switch to WHM. No RPR. 30 seconds.

I ask if the DRGs might switch back and if anyone wants to play RPR or perhaps WAR. One of the former DRGs kindly obliges. The other tells me a) this isn't WoW, b) I don't pay their sub, c) they have no idea how to play DRG they are just leveling it. 15 seconds.

While all this is going on, a BRD has switched to MCH. Okay I have DRK-DRG-WAR-MCH. Workable if sub-optimal., but probably the best I could hope for. I suggest to the MCH that they follow my little triangle icon and take advantage of my dive. No response. 5 seconds.

"Okay team, here's the plan..." 0 seconds. ENGAGE.

This is going to have the same outcome as a premade that has played hundreds of matches together?

I'm assuming it's so active here today because nobody can be bothered to play Shatter lol. Ahem.

Those saying "I want to raise the skill lvl of others" and yet being against separate queues for solo & premade tells you all you need to know-they aren't for anything but being able to steamroll randos, many of whom are "jUsT HeRe fOR ThE EXP luls". One of my biggest wishes for pvp is for them to remove the exp, every single mmo I've played that added exp to pvp ruined it because it brings in what I call lazy leeches, those who will either do just enough to avoid an afk removal or will intentionally run into the enemy over and over for "easy leveling exp".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

snip

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I wouldn't say it's only for that reason. Yes, there are always going to be those totally hopeless players who have zero intention of contributing anything and are solely there for the exp reward. Their minds will never be changed. Whether they are placed in a full random alliance or in a premade-team alliance, they will exist and continue to join. There will be some of those players on all teams. It's not a problem faced only by premades. It's not putting them at a disadvantage that they're having to regain ground from. Similarly, it's not a problem faced only by randoms.

However, a few here seem blindly focused on that leeching proportion of the playerbase and seem to think you're either an experienced player who knows of common strategies/ techniques and can play a good game or you're a leech. Too many seem to ignore that very wide range of players in the middle: those who may be on their first few games, those who may have casually played in the past for exp but do want to start learning more about PvP, those who still haven't quite found a class which they're comfortable with in PvP yet etc.
These players also exist. They shouldn't just be assumed to be leeches because they don't coordinate particularly well or do very little damage. They may still be learning the basics, may still be finding their class or learning their classes role/strengths within the FL team.

All of these factors mean that coordinating random teams, with players of various different skills and interest levels is incredibly difficult. Harder for some teams than others, but a challenge either way - a challenge which is considered not profitable enough / too hard / too effortsome to bother with, hence why some turn to coordinating as a premade.
It's easier and generally more profitable.

But sadly, this approach can often push away those sprout / inexperienced players. But, hey, we're profiting and it's not against the rules, so why care? Just claim it's 'git good' or 'raising the skill floor' and it's all fine!
Unfortunately, we are selfish beings. Just as those leeches are harming the game for others because of their own interests, the same could be said of premades. To instantly assume that an objection to premades is purely based on a dislike of 'skilled' players would be incorrect.
I want to see FL thrive and I want to see more players involved in and improve themselves PvP, whether it's non-PvP friends or random players. But premades very clearly affect this. Just some refuse to acknowledge it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I'm assuming it's so active here today because nobody can be bothered to play Shatter lol. Ahem.

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Tried a couple matches today on Aether and another on Crystal a few days ago. They're still just 15-minute auto-losses where no one engages or says anything. Really makes you miss the 6.10 SMN spam.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Windfire

Those saying "I want to raise the skill lvl of others" and yet being against separate queues for solo & premade tells you all you need to know-they aren't for anything but being able to steamroll randos, many of whom are "jUsT HeRe fOR ThE EXP luls". One of my biggest wishes for pvp is for them to remove the exp, every single mmo I've played that added exp to pvp ruined it because it brings in what I call lazy leeches, those who will either do just enough to avoid an afk removal or will intentionally run into the enemy over and over for "easy leveling exp".

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PvP used to be this way and not offer any EXP. Back in those days PvP rarely ever popped even in prime time. Think how Rival Wings feels right now but for Frontlines as a whole. Without the casuals, PvP is just straight-up dead. There just weren't enough people interested to keep it rapidly popping. For better or for worse the "I'm just here for my exp, chill bro" crowd is the grand majority of those playing. Crystal Conflict aside as the lone exception, PvP in this game has never been popular in any version of it. Rewards control the state and flow of everything. Some are even arguing that the EXP already isn't enough to justify them playing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Let's break down those points.

You claim I "simply don't like players who are skilled and working together." This is completely untrue and to suggest it has put you on my fashion advice list. It's an absurd assumption that doesn't follow from anything I've said. I would love to see more cooperation between random players, and I agree it can (and should) occur. My primary complaints about (good) premades, which I've repeated ad nauseum at this point, are:1. I find them extremely dull to play with, and often oppressive to play against, largely because... 2. They encourage defeatism among many players who don't cooperate at all and become little more than someone riding a horse watching others PvP. The second point can be debated, I guess. The first can't because that is my experience of the game. My enjoyment is reduced by the presence of premades.

You claim that solo players can do "the exact same thing" that a premade can. I'll accept that you believe this, but I genuinely cannot understand how anyone could reach this conclusion.

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It's because I've seen solo players do it before. Solo players can do it even better than needing the amount of coordination a premade does at the same skill level because to be a good solo player, you have to notice and take into accordance of many more variables and factors than a premade does and be able to make good judgements on the spot, thereby skipping the need for basic communication from macros. The faster response speed gives more advantages at the same skill level.

Yes, I also understand your primary complaint is about (good) premades, hence I pointed out that you don't want good premades to be queueing together because there's just no guarantee solo players of the same skill level and mentality to work together will appear either. Encouraging defeatism is a mentality issue in NA/EU mainly because of people unable to accept skill differences and working together. It wouldn't matter if they were solo or premade, I hear defeatism when skill gap is too wide before DRK combo existed. DRK combo just became the next blame point because it's the next easiest target. Good solo players can still coordinate just as well in any environment. Otherwise high-level ranked solo Crystalline Conflict matches wouldn't have existed outside of tournaments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Queue pops. 45 seconds.

Re-center map, mount, drop a triangle on my head. 38 seconds.

See what jobs I have on my team. Two DRGs awesome! I start typing to ask if they want to play premade dress-up and before I've hit enter they both switch to WHM. No RPR. 30 seconds.

I ask if the DRGs might switch back and if anyone wants to play RPR or perhaps WAR. One of the former DRGs kindly obliges. The other tells me a) this isn't WoW, b) I don't pay their sub, c) they have no idea how to play DRG they are just leveling it. 15 seconds.

While all this is going on, a BRD has switched to MCH. Okay I have DRK-DRG-WAR-MCH. Workable if sub-optimal., but probably the best I could hope for. I suggest to the MCH that they follow my little triangle icon and take advantage of my dive. No response. 5 seconds.

"Okay team, here's the plan..." 0 seconds. ENGAGE.

This is going to have the same outcome as a premade that has played hundreds of matches together?

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From your example just now, I think I figured out what your issue is with Frontlines. You don't like the randomness of Frontline players who doesn't have the same mentality or skill level. Premades has a way to guarantee people working together, but also because they can be playing with like-minded players with the same goal and mentality, so it's less random than hoping other players will have the same mentality and mindset as you.

So the big issue is that you want casual Frontlines to somehow provide a MMR system to balance players out in a casual queue. A MMR system will sort out bad players to play together so they wouldn't complain as much with defeatism (bad players end up with something akin to League's Iron division are roughly the same skill level), good players/good premades end up queueing together so they will always be able to communicate and have high-level matches, and people who fall inbetween those players to get their own matches so everyone has a game and matched against players with a similar level of skill.

While I can somewhat see it working in Casual Crystalline Conflict, I don't think that system particularly works in such a large-scale environment as Frontlines since it requires sorting matches by 72 players as opposed to 10 players. There's not that many players available at a given moment to create a MMR system and many matches for that as this game isn't PvP-focused like League of Legends or other MOBA games. I wouldn't opposed to it, but I don't think that's feasible without killing Frontlines entirely.

It might be possible if we were able to merge all the Datacenters into one gigantic PvP server since there's a lot of players who do play PvP if you all them all up (though that's a massive undertaking and not very feasible), but making people hop to another Datacenter specifically to play PvP is probably going to discourage plenty of players from the getgo.

Why is everyone so keen today to tell me what my issues are? I've told you what they are. I dislike playing with premades.

I think an MMR may provide a bunny slope in which new players learn the mode and/or provide more engaging matches for higher-skilled players. As you note, LoL basically does that by default. But it's not a hill I'll die on, largely because I agree with the problems you point out with the idea. I dunno, maybe offer a "sprout queue" periodically restricted to players with less than 30 matches? I know I didn't try PvP for ages because I assumed (correctly) I'd start off pants and would likely take a while before I wasn't a hindrance.

Right, now to your well-earned fashion report...

Ahhhh.
Er....
Uhm.
Hmmm.

I got nothin, man, you're on your own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Windfire

Those saying "I want to raise the skill lvl of others" and yet being against separate queues for solo & premade tells you all you need to know-they aren't for anything but being able to steamroll randos, many of whom are "jUsT HeRe fOR ThE EXP luls". One of my biggest wishes for pvp is for them to remove the exp, every single mmo I've played that added exp to pvp ruined it because it brings in what I call lazy leeches, those who will either do just enough to avoid an afk removal or will intentionally run into the enemy over and over for "easy leveling exp".

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those lowscore third place people i get in my daily FL like doing this and i really hate it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

And you know better than most that the application of that power is far easier and more effective with a premade than with randos!!! Why else would your win-rate rocket from 40% to 55%? C'mon.

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1. Watching Deneb calling a match and drastically changing how I called games.

2. Switching from predominately blackmage, Dragoon, and Red Mage to dark knight.

3. Improving my personal performance.

4. Keeping my map open at all times.

5. Being the first to optimize new shatter

6. The moogless tome event both incentiving winning and lowering the overall skill of the ques.

7. Started always running with a group.

8. Developed fame/infamy for winning consistently and without much contest.l further incentivizeing people to follow me.

9. Being basically the only caller using the method for an extended period of time.

10. Most regulars not enjoying the redesign and not queuing, leaving me with little competition.

Like, I'm not gonna say forming a group didn't help, but it was a flurry of fortuitous events happening at the same time.

It seems the people talking to you can't understand your point of view. So, perhaps place it in the entirety for your next post.