Why is everyone anxious about a PLD Rework?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

I agree. I don't think the game can afford to loose even more team play. The vocal minority is so afraid to be hindered by someone else and the perceived solution seems to be to take even more interplay away. With that mentality why do people even play an MMO in the first place? How about people play a single player game instead and let the rest of us have job synergy and identity.

And on top of that we already lost like I don't know how many RPG mechanics. Stats are bland, gearing is boring, only raw DPS matters, elements are only for looks, TP management is gone, the MP bar might as well go etc.

---

with that mentality why do you play an mmo instead of a moba? job identity and individually is much more than "what buttons you press". DRK identity is being an edgy emolord, warrior identity is being a raging berserker, samurai identity is doing anime poses, etc

didn't the devs themselves say this is a "ff game first and mmo second" (i heard it from someone but i'm not sure if it's true)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melethron123

with that mentality why do you play an mmo instead of a moba? job identity and individually is much more than "what buttons you press". DRK identity is being an edgy emolord, warrior identity is being a raging berserker, samurai identity is doing anime poses, etc

didn't the devs themselves say this is a "ff game first and mmo second" (i heard it from someone but i'm not sure if it's true)

---

If they said that, it must've been several years ago. I think you could argue that was true in ARR and HW, but I think after Gordias they got so scared of repeating that disaster that they swapped it to "MMO first, FF after."

That, or they're assuming that MSQ is literally the only thing that matters. But idk if I'd even call it an "FF game" from that standpoint, either... most FF's aren't just glorified visual novels. You know? They were never the hardest or most nuanced games, absent self-imposed challenge runs, but the MSQ is now so safe and steamrolled that it really is basically just a visual novel with extra steps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

...

---

Once again, you are arguing against the literal description from FFlogs.

Quote:

---

aDPS removes single target padding, but still rewards you for playing to AOE buffs. It also doesn't include your buff contributions, so this metric allows you to evaluate how well players are aligning their damage bursts with external AOE buffs.

---

Furthermore, neither metric is immune to padding. They both can be abused with the right comp under the right circumstances. Hence why both are valuable metrics depending on the job as some benefit more from aDPS and others from rDPS. Dismissing it as "worthless" because of two different comps is ignoring rDPS can also be manipulated. aDPS is meant to calculate job bursts within raid buffs while not contributing their own whereas rDPS is a better metric for jobs with buffs that benefit from said bursts. Which is why tanks tend to favor the former.

However, let's put all that aside for a moment and return to the speed kill examples I've provided. Both of which you've ignored. If rDPS is the superior statistic for tanks, and thus, accurate, why is Dark Knight over twenty times more dominate in P5S than Paladin when the latter actually performs better in rDPS? Out of the top 50 ranked speed logs, only one group isn't running a Dark Knight. Twelve of those groups (24%) have two Dark Knights. That is more than Paladin and Warrior's representation combined.

Now when we glance at rDPS, this extremely lopsided result simply doesn't make sense when the entire purpose of speed killing is to bring the most efficient jobs. At 99% Paladin is ahead of Dark Knight and roughly tied with Gunbreaker. At max%, it's actually ahead of all tanks. Meanwhile, when we look at aDPS under those same parameters, we see Dark Knight pulling away by 600 at 95% and a staggering 900 at 99%. In other words, the overrepresentation makes sense. So... what is this? Is the speed kill community just emotional and completely ignoring raw DPS because of established dogma as you put it or is your dismissal of aDPS completely unfounded and the statistics reflect that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Now when we glance at rDPS, this extremely lopsided result simply doesn't make sense when the entire purpose of speed killing is to bring the most efficient jobs. At 99% Paladin is ahead of Dark Knight and roughly tied with Gunbreaker. At max%, it's actually ahead of all tanks. Meanwhile, when we look at aDPS under those same parameters, we see Dark Knight pulling away by 600 at 95% and a staggering 900 at 99%. In other words, the overrepresentation makes sense. So... what is this? Is the speed kill community just emotional and completely ignoring raw DPS because of established dogma as you put it or is your dismissal of aDPS completely unfounded and the statistics reflect that?

---

i'd bet a whole cookie that whoever is in charge of tank balance is tuning the numbers around rDPS instead of aDPS

rDPS provides a poor comparison between exploiters, always, because it literally leaves their essential teamplay component out of the equation. aDPS provides a poor comparison of buffers, because it leaves their essential teamplay component out of their equation.

If two jobs who always have more aDPS than rDPS have the same rDPS (others are more dependent on them than they are on others for rDPS -- so, an exploiter), probe further at their aDPS; you're not done yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

Then you can say a NIN benefits by X rDPS by virtue of having a GNB present instead of a PLD, or a NIN benefits Y rDPS by virtue of having a SAM present instead of a DRG. It's a much more effective method of analysis rather than looking at a parameter that is completely meaningless without knowing the composition in which it was generated in.

---

The same result, from the opposite direction, is doable already, so long as one is cool with plugging numbers for a while. But both your suggested approach and that would require multiple steps until you find a way to fairly balance who gets credit for exploiting a buff; only then could you form a single metric.

In your case, though, by your logic, you'd need each buffers' run to have exploiters of equal or near-equal percentile for a fair test of exploitation; if you can't compare aDPS against (smaller / less impactful) deviations in compositions even when averaged over some 30,000 parses, why would you want data on ability exploitation that'd potential compare a 99th percentile GNB's exploitation of Chain Strategem among 5 other raid buffs to that of 9th percentile DRK's with only two other raid buffs?

Or, heck, if we're comparing theoretical bests anyways, just look at potency maps, where there is no deviation to be had at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

When aDPS is looked at from the standpoint of 'percentiles', there is no consideration given to what group compositions were used to attain said percentiles. The result is completely meaningless.

---

When any form of DPS metric, even rDPS, is looked at from the standpoint of 'percentiles', there is no consideration of party mistakes (which badly punish buffers' rDPS), buff synergy, crit rates, etc. Why would the result not likewise be meaningless then?

If a dominant composition trends across a percentile, consider the rest outliers, and compare what you can within in. Then drop to the next percentile in which the pool of jobs expands and compare there. Repeat.

Regardless, you're going to find the same very easy means of comparisons: you can take the party logs (such that the composition is obviously identical) where the jobs you want to compare of similar percentile, and look at the difference between rDPS and aDPS of those jobs.

That is their degree of exploitation, and it shows a significant difference between DRK's and others' (especially PLD/WAR) contribution to the party's total (r)DPS. Whether that's worth doing anything about is a different story. I'm okay with DRK being the damage-focused mad-lad, so long as the other tanks offered something of reasonable equal value. I don't particularly care that PLD is not desirable for post-content speedruns. If that's to be the case, though, I want it to be at least as desirable as DRK (up to a small advantage over the likes of DRK, assuming the party doesn't specifically need its damage carried) in progression.

Now, that may require bringing additional depth to encounters. But there's been anything mutually exclusive between that, kit depth, kit parity, or anything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

...

---

This seems to be an analysis issue on your part. Yes, that quote says that it 'allows you to evaluate how well players are aligning their damage buffs with external raidwide buffs.' That's true, when you're comparing yourself with yourself. What it doesn't tell you is how well two different jobs matched with different raid comps intrinsically align with two-minute raidbuffs. You'll note that gains from BRD's rotational raidwide buffs are included, which have nothing to do with your burst alignment. You'll also note that there are no pretenses made here about this illustrating tank damage balance, or in how much additional damage is actually contributed to buff providers. These are just false inferences that you have made because you haven't bothered to take the time to read what it actually says on the tin.

I don't really think that you can say that rDPS is subject to padding on anywhere near the same scale as aDPS is, simply because setting aside single target buff jobs, the only way that other players influence your rDPS contribution is in what they do under your 16% uptime two minute buffs (i.e. individually, what's going to amount to 0.5-0.8% of your total rDPS). That's the same quantity that you're quibbling over, on the second lowest damage role in the game. What's going to influence it more than raid composition is being paired with players who keep dying during buff windows or can't maintain proper uptime. But that's a bit like saying that clearing a fight faster with a group of better players boosts DPS metrics at all levels.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gserpent

Swearing is edgy.

---

And yet we had interesting job interplay till 5.0. We also used to have more interesting dungeons until the vocal minority declared having to spend 10 seconds longer in a dungeon is a hate crime. lol Granted, the fight design isn\\'t doing them any favours, but players are absolutely to blame for the sorry state jobs are in as well. The Balance discord is a testament to that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melethron123

with that mentality why do you play an mmo instead of a moba? job identity and individually is much more than "what buttons you press". DRK identity is being an edgy emolord, warrior identity is being a raging berserker, samurai identity is doing anime poses, etc

---

Paladin has the gladiator and holy knight stuff, warrior had the drain hp stuff and offence/defence trade thing, dark knight had fallen knight and dark arts. Scholar had tactical poison mage and faeries, summoner had tactical poison mage and primal stuff.
There’s only so much lipstick you can put on a pig.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fulminating

Paladin has the gladiator and holy knight stuff, warrior had the drain hp stuff and offence/defence trade thing, dark knight had fallen knight and dark arts. Scholar had tactical poison mage and faeries, summoner had tactical poison mage and primal stuff.
There’s only so much lipstick you can put on a pig.

---

as far as i know, they're not removing those aspects from paladin
if you're referring to healing by attacking, i recommend reading storm's path and raw intuition/bloodwhetting tooltips. they also have equilibrium, for even more self-healing
the DRK job quests still have the whole "fallen knight" stories, and they still use dark magic
scholar still has fairies
well, the job is called "summoner", not "poisoner", which is probably why they redesigned it into the current iteration

Bloodbath was a marauder skill, inner beast had a massive hp drain effect ~300% or so.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand the arcanist/summoner/scholar relationship in this game. Through how they played it was very clear that while they shared a starting point, they’d both developed into their own niche. Currently pets are nearly dead, arcanist has no capstone skill and summoner is designed for a nodding bird desk toy.

Ultimately it doesn’t matter an iota what they say the jobs are if they keep removing what makes them feel that way. Dark knight being a prime example for reasons that shouldn’t have to be elaborated on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gserpent

If they said that, it must've been several years ago. I think you could argue that was true in ARR and HW, but I think after Gordias they got so scared of repeating that disaster that they swapped it to "MMO first, FF after."

---

iirc it happened again in 6.2 when WAR and PLD where nowhere near as good in the dmg as DRK and GNB in p8s. Why there is such a large dmg discrepancy in the first place is befuddling, but regardless it shows the cracks in their 2 min meta. WAR fits nicely into it but still couldn't keep up and PLD was just a mess. It shows how their extremely safe design process has hindered some jobs and 100% crit DH will be the least of our worries. Though I wouldn't be surprised if PLD got 100% crit DH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Payadopa

And yet we had interesting job interplay till 5.0. We also used to have more interesting dungeons until the vocal minority declared having to spend 10 seconds longer in a dungeon is a hate crime. lol Granted, the fight design isn\\'t doing them any favours, but players are absolutely to blame for the sorry state jobs are in as well. The Balance discord is a testament to that.

---

Yeah, basically. I stopped going to The Balance at all once I both realized how far up their own ass those chronically online types are. I used to believe a lot of what they said until I *effortlessly* parsed orange in e10s, without ever having spent a moment practicing on striking dummies or anything like that. One or two steps beyond mashing buttons and I'm parsing a number that the system should say belongs to the best of the very best? Kind of a watershed moment. Made me realize that the entire parsing thing was a crock of shit.

I'll reiterate that Square-Enix are cowards. The number of players who *genuinely care* about parses, about the tiny differences in numbers, are so minuscule that they could kill all of their accounts tonight and probably not notice much of a blip in revenues. Yet these players are seemingly the ones they're building the entire combat system around. It's madness.

By their own words, it's allegedly a Final Fantasy game first and an MMO second. So why is it that in the combat content that comprises the overwhelming majority of gameplay that players participate in, my Dark Knight doesn't really feel like a Dark Knight?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gserpent

I used to believe a lot of what they said until I *effortlessly* parsed orange in e10s, without ever having spent a moment practicing on striking dummies or anything like that.

---

"Effortlessly."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gserpent

Yeah, basically. I stopped going to The Balance at all once I both realized how far up their own ass those chronically online types are. I used to believe a lot of what they said until I *effortlessly* parsed orange in e10s, without ever having spent a moment practicing on striking dummies or anything like that. One or two steps beyond mashing buttons and I'm parsing a number that the system should say belongs to the best of the very best? Kind of a watershed moment. Made me realize that the entire parsing thing was a crock of shit.

I'll reiterate that Square-Enix are cowards. The number of players who *genuinely care* about parses, about the tiny differences in numbers, are so minuscule that they could kill all of their accounts tonight and probably not notice much of a blip in revenues. Yet these players are seemingly the ones they're building the entire combat system around. It's madness.

---

World First for our very first Ultimate... featured a DRK at a time when DRK was at its very worst. His reasoning: "Idk. I just like playing DRK." The changes made would make no sense if they were being made just for the top tier, the theorycrafters, etc. And most of the ones actually going for an orange parse aren't the ones arguing over this or that job having 0.5% higher theoretical rDPS despite being the sole group for whom such differences would actually matter.

Nothing about Balance theorycrafters working out the best way to leverage Overheat turned it into the shallow shtick MCH has been since Shadowbringers. Nothing about their figuring out the best ways to open as Monk removed Greased Lightning. By their count, after all, it was already balanced; whatever "clunk" was there didn't matter to them, because they'd already accepted and worked around it.

I don't particularly give a damn about that community, either, but it's laughable that you could lay the devs' changes made over time towards accessibility-(even-if-at-cost-to-identity-and-skill-ceiling) at their feet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Nothing about Balance theorycrafters working out the best way to leverage Overheat turned it into the shallow shtick MCH has been since Shadowbringers. Nothing about their figuring out the best ways to open as Monk removed Greased Lightning. By their count, after all, it was already balanced; whatever "clunk" was there didn't matter to them, because they'd already accepted and worked around it.

---

Pretty much this, the parsing community never really cared about or advocated for job changes to make it easier for them to parse, they just took whatever was there and optimized the hell out of it.

Which is both good and bad, they don't really care if a job is complex or braindead, if it has flavour or not, they'll take whatever the devs give them and run with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

"Effortlessly."

---

Yeah, effortlessly. We did the mechanics, we did a cheese strat that was available because of our gear level and team setup to allow for some extra uptime, but other than that? It was nothing out of the ordinary. It was exactly the same as a typical reclear except for the cheese strat (which had some degree of failure rate, probably because we were messing something up, so we usually just did the mechanic or ate the damage down rather than fucking with that strat) and I magically got a shiny orange number.

I didn't practice. I didn't read up on strats or optimizations or things like that. I just showed up and hit buttons the exact same way I'd been hitting buttons the whole time I'd been playing that tier. People were acting like you had to be dedicated and work really hard to get orange parses, and here I was getting one by basically just mashing buttons?

Yeah, parsing is bullshit. It's absurd that it occupies so much design space.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

World First for our very first Ultimate... featured a DRK at a time when DRK was at its very worst. His reasoning: "Idk. I just like playing DRK." The changes made would make no sense if they were being made just for the top tier, the theorycrafters, etc. And most of the ones actually going for an orange parse aren't the ones arguing over this or that job having 0.5% higher theoretical rDPS despite being the sole group for whom such differences would actually matter.

Nothing about Balance theorycrafters working out the best way to leverage Overheat turned it into the shallow shtick MCH has been since Shadowbringers. Nothing about their figuring out the best ways to open as Monk removed Greased Lightning. By their count, after all, it was already balanced; whatever "clunk" was there didn't matter to them, because they'd already accepted and worked around it.

I don't particularly give a damn about that community, either, but it's laughable that you could lay the devs' changes made over time towards accessibility-(even-if-at-cost-to-identity-and-skill-ceiling) at their feet.

---

Because literally *who the fuck else* are these changes *for*? Accessibility? That's a crock of shit, when they can't even bother to add friend or foe coloring to important effects in PvP and have *twice* now released a raid encounter that is best described as "orange on red on orange on more orange." Accessibility is why we *still* have to push 6 buttons to do what could be done with 2? Accessibility is why we still have a bunch of boring fucking buttons that we hit robotically every time they are available, with no nuance or variation, and which are literally nothing but "do a little more damage" and otherwise have zero interaction with the rest of the kit? If accessibility is the concern, then you need to be removing a lot of these boring filler buttons and reworking the entire combat concept around not needing to manage so many buttons.

Come off it, dude. "Accessible" is meaningless when you can literally set casual content to whatever you want it to be. You can quite literally clear dungeons and normals by doing nothing but spamming Heavy Swing over and over, using no other attack skills. and it's not even that hard. It will be slower but not to such an extent that it will be noticeable for most players. Normals are tuned around there being players (multiple players, in raids) literally not even achieving like 75% GCD utilization, much less doing an actual, proper rotation.

WAR in Shadowbringers was one of the simplest classes I've seen in any game like this, to the point that the training wheels memes were *almost* not a joke. But it still had *some* small amount of room for optimization, tanks still had *some* small amount of influence over fights with boss positioning and repositioning and such. But they removed every single iota of nuance from WAR's rotation and kit in Endwalker, and when they inflated boss hitboxes so precious poor little melee players wouldn't occasionally have to consider missing a GCD to avoid a mechanic to compensate for their higher base DPS, it also tended to end the idea of tanks needing to know where and when to position the boss.

Square-Enix are fucking morons, in this area. There's no other possible explanation for it. They are ruining their game's combat system for the sake of a demographic of players *that literally does not exist and never has.* There's no mythical group of players that totally wanted to get into savage raiding but just *couldn't* because 1-button healers and braindead tanks were just *so* hard to understand, or that 20th percentile performance on a DPS class to clear e9s with plenty of room to spare was just *so hard.*

Casual players are not and never have done proper rotiations. They don't even keep their GCD rolling. And they don't need to, because normals are designed to be absurdly easy. They don't need proper DPS. So who the fuck cares if these players are confused by their rotation and thus never do it correctly? It's not for them! As long as they can have fun mashing powerful, flashy things like Fell Cleave or More Feller Cleave when they light up and can occasionally string some 1-2-3's together, they're going to be happy. Give em some extra oGCD buttons to push every now and then and that'll keep them busy for a while, and they won't notice or care that they're drifting those buttons to hell and back and ruining their burst cycles.

The only reason you bother to make a proper DPS rotation in the first place is for the high-end players that want something to actually keep their minds engaged once they're through with progging a fight, since once you have the fight choreography memorized, you're not really thinking about it anymore, just doing rote memory recall.

But if you're going to do the automated/no rotation design, then they're sucking ass at it and they need to go back and copy WoW's homework again. Because a long time ago, WoW decided to go that route and as a result mundane combat in that game is a fucking *million* times better than XIV's. "Hit the button when it lights up" is not deep or nuanced gameplay, but it's not trying to be - it's just trying to keep you from falling asleep in your chair, and it succeeds at that. It's flashy and hitting the button when it lights up gives haha happy monke brain feelings, and that's all it needs to do. If you're going to go for a simplistic gameplay experience, then at least fucking do it right. Yoshida had the wisdom to copy several pages of WoW's homework once, and he needs to do it again.

honestly bit lame bulwark is just blocking and no mit,
yeah they put mit on sheltron but gauge is still built up by auto attacks, if they let holy spirit build gauge again it be fine imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gserpent

...

---

Step 1: Look at the commonly understood explanation for why jobs are getting easier (based upon developer comments and who actually benefits from the given changes, especially within the scope of the given development philosophy). Promptly dismiss it.

Step 2: Create a hypothetical demographic of players, which you explicitly note "literally does not exist and never has."

Step 3: Instead blame the latter literally inexistant group, and by extension any theorycrafters, optimizers, etc., on the basis that despite their being the one group wholly unburdened by the "problems" SE addressed in their changes their optimizations must have dumbed down the jobs.

Step 4: ?????? Profit???

Not that it matters, but... wut, mate?

Quote:

---

Because a long time ago, WoW decided to go that route and as a result mundane combat in that game is a fucking *million* times better than XIV's. "Hit the button when it lights up" is not deep or nuanced gameplay, but it's not trying to be - it's just trying to keep you from falling asleep in your chair, and it succeeds at that. It's flashy and hitting the button when it lights up gives haha happy monke brain feelings, and that's all it needs to do. If you're going to go for a simplistic gameplay experience, then at least fucking do it right.

---

But... almost no part of what makes WoW's combat decent comes simply from "hit the button when it lights up". It comes generally from their APLs being contextual to upcoming uptime. The only part "lit button go!" procs play into that is that there's an actual frequent difference there in playing around a 33% chance of a 100% effect proc vs. a guaranteed bonus effect of 33% strength due to skill interactions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gserpent

I didn't practice. I didn't read up on strats or optimizations or things like that. I just showed up and hit buttons the exact same way I'd been hitting buttons the whole time I'd been playing that tier. People were acting like you had to be dedicated and work really hard to get orange parses, and here I was getting one by basically just mashing buttons?

---

Sure sounds like *someone* in your party was checking The Balance and the like to figure out that these cheese strats were

Hopefully they do what they did to all classes what they did to healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

honestly bit lame bulwark is just blocking and no mit,
yeah they put mit on sheltron but gauge is still built up by auto attacks, if they let holy spirit build gauge again it be fine imo.

---

It’s homogenization, but half done here : GNB has camouflage and it gives parry + a bit of damage reduction. However GNB has less sustain. No idea if war has something similar. At any rate, it doesn’t feel I’ll play PLD again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Likethewind

Hopefully they do what they did to all classes what they did to healers.

---

They're well on their way with it, look at the outcry against the SMN rework. Issue is that people are in this weird headspace where, if we say 'welcome to what healers have had to suffer for several years', rather than go 'damn you guys had it like this for THAT long, we gotta push back against SE together', people instead go 'stop making this about healers ffs, we're complaining about SMN here'. So because of the division, SE only sees a small amount of players complaining specifically about 'class that was just cratered' and assume 'the majority must be ambivalent or better, success!' and move on to crater the next class in line

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by True-to-Caesar

It’s homogenization, but half done here : GNB has camouflage and it gives parry + a bit of damage reduction. However GNB has less sustain. No idea if war has something similar. At any rate, it doesn’t feel I’ll play PLD again.

---

GNB has equivalent sustain, IIRC. Heart of Corundum is less total healing potency than Sheltron, but they have a LOT of healing potency on their filler combo, plus two charges of Aurora. I think Divine Might allowing more frequent spell use will make PLD closer in sustain than it was before, but keep in mind that Clemency is still completely unusable for all practical intents and purposes, so factoring in Aurora puts GNB ahead. Also keep in mind that GNB's sustain comes on the second GCD of the cycle while PLD's comes in on the fourth GCD at the earliest. GNB can 1-2-1-2-1-2 for exceptionally high sustain if they really need to.

Instead of working on the problem with the 2 minute burst meta, they killed of paladins flow completely, if you look at the suggested rotation on the balance you just gag ... not only is there no clear line ... its all wonky AND there are hardcasted spirits in there which feels backwards.

Drg and Ast your next, so far every rework gutted the class.

This raised the floor and lowered the celling, which is what SE wants, in best case all classes are exactally the same with different animations ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Or, the most likely change would be they increase recast of Fight or Flight to 2minutes, and allow it to affect all damage, so we'd have a big Requiescat burst in opener and every 2 minutes, and a small Requiescat burst every other minute.

---

Guess I wasn't entirely too far off the mark in the end lol

over shot by like 60seconds on FoF...so close

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Guess I wasn't entirely too far off the mark in the end lol

over shot by like 60seconds on FoF...so close

---

60 sec rotations feel better, anyway. 2 minutes is a *long* time to go with nothing but filler.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gserpent

60 sec rotations feel better, anyway. 2 minutes is a *long* time to go with nothing but filler.

---

I mean it wouldn't have been nothing but filler, you still would have had a req window in there, but yea 60seconds is still more than fine.

How many Paladins walked away today?

This one did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wyther

How many Paladins walked away today?

This one did.

---

I did. What a mess. What the hell were they thinking? Looks like I'm not going to be a tank main anymore. Either white mage or machinist/dancer for me it seems

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMisled

I did. What a mess. What the hell were they thinking? Looks like I'm not going to be a tank main anymore. Either white mage or machinist/dancer for me it seems

---

Do yourself a favour, if the PLD rework is not what you want from the game, WHM sure as hell won't be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gserpent

GNB has equivalent sustain, IIRC. Heart of Corundum is less total healing potency than Sheltron, but they have a LOT of healing potency on their filler combo, plus two charges of Aurora. I think Divine Might allowing more frequent spell use will make PLD closer in sustain than it was before, but keep in mind that Clemency is still completely unusable for all practical intents and purposes, so factoring in Aurora puts GNB ahead. Also keep in mind that GNB's sustain comes on the second GCD of the cycle while PLD's comes in on the fourth GCD at the earliest. GNB can 1-2-1-2-1-2 for exceptionally high sustain if they really need to.

---

You get heals with Confiteor combo+ holy spirit/circle and Sheltron can be used way more often than Aurora on a 60s cooldown. PLD does have better sustain overall. It’s very noticeable when the healer is dead or bad.

Yesterday I already raided as the new PLD and it was pain.
I did not had the time to look up and practice the "best" rotation that the balance discord provided so I tried to play the intended way.
I luckily already figured out that HS spam into the other caster rotation is not a thing anymore but you still could do it and it is just confusing.
You also have to drop attomends again, but because you have to do the stupid 1-2-3-5-4-4-4 combo 2or 3 time's (I don't know, at the end I just looked at the FoF timer) it takes a while to get which one to drop.
And then there is this bloated button of the previous phys dot....
They could have just removed it, it is useless and just makes you press a random, out of order button.
Or a better Idea in case they wanted to keep that GCD, let it prog FoF so we remove that button.

It just feels stupid to have a single GCD just for DMG and nothing else, because you can't just press it somewhere else like a oGCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Curisu

Yesterday I already raided as the new PLD and it was pain.
I did not had the time to look up and practice the "best" rotation that the balance discord provided so I tried to play the intended way.
I luckily already figured out that HS spam into the other caster rotation is not a thing anymore but you still could do it and it is just confusing.
You also have to drop attomends again, but because you have to do the stupid 1-2-3-5-4-4-4 combo 2or 3 time's (I don't know, at the end I just looked at the FoF timer) it takes a while to get which one to drop.
And then there is this bloated button of the previous phys dot....
They could have just removed it, it is useless and just makes you press a random, out of order button.
Or a better Idea in case they wanted to keep that GCD, let it prog FoF so we remove that button.

It just feels stupid to have a single GCD just for DMG and nothing else, because you can't just press it somewhere else like a oGCD.

---

I actually really like your idea of goring blade giving you fight or flight, right now fight or flight feels a bit, I don't know how to put it lame? Right now Goring and fight or flight feel like really redundant abilities that could just be removed and you buff the burst, the job would hardly change, But I somewhat like the idea of goring blade giving you fight or flight (sort of like a gcd req), This would also cut down some bloat that isn't really needed.

I'm in the middle about new PLD, adjustable holy spirits (outside burst) for sustain and ranged I generally like, Defensive changes were pretty cool, but goring blade just feels like it's there to exist right now, also atonement currently breaks your combo, I'd somewhat like some changes to PLD generally still I don't know I felt like they missed the mark on a few things, it's better then what I was expecting I guess?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rithy255

I actually really like your idea of goring blade giving you fight or flight, right now fight or flight feels a bit, I don't know how to put it lame? Right now Goring and fight or flight feel like really redundant abilities that could just be removed and you buff the burst, the job would hardly change, But I somewhat like the idea of goring blade giving you fight or flight (sort of like a gcd req), This would also cut down some bloat that isn't really needed.

I'm in the middle about new PLD, adjustable holy spirits (outside burst) for sustain and ranged I generally like, Defensive changes were pretty cool, but goring blade just feels like it's there to exist right now, also atonement currently breaks your combo, I'd somewhat like some changes to PLD generally still I don't know I felt like they missed the mark on a few things, it's better then what I was expecting I guess?

---

If anything, I think it might (not 100% sure though) feel better to move Req to be a GCD (make it somewhere between 600 and 750p), that upgrades later into Confiteor (900p, with aoe falloff). Req currently gives Conf Ready, just delete that and make Confiteor give the 4 stacks of Req. If Req's now only 300p, they can just redistribute that back through the rotation, probably by undoing the potency adjustments to Riot/Royal/Atonement. With this, you'd be able to go into a burst window by going Riot, FOF, Goring, Conf, Blade, Blade, Blade, HS, Royal, HS (FOF end). Actually, isn't this the same as now, just without having to use Req? Huh. Anyway I think having FOF attached to Goring would be kinda weird, only able to activate it if the boss is attackable, which sounds fine on paper, but there might be a time where you want to purposely activate it eg 3s before the boss comes down, so it lines up better later in the fight