Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

Personally I've had loads of fun with rescue. Not here to argue against anyone.. Just wanted to lay my personal 2 gil.

Saving people from wipe mechanics (things where you know if it hits them they'll die), especially if it's something that's pretty quick and they don't quite have the timing down and you can help them see where they're supposed to go, dragging people up if they've fallen behind for things like elevators or boss walls, or if the content is a cake walk sometimes I just play with others willing (like in the MSQ roulette the other healer and I will drag each other around the battlefield, sometimes it's timed well enough that we switch places). Though I only do that if they seem to be interested in messing around.

I try to see how people are before using it though, like certain jobs would be more or less annoying to be pulled around on, and some players will dodge themselves at the last second with their evasion moves (and if you pulled that person you could just throw them way off position). If I see someone is messing up or is so out of position they need it, that'll be when I use it (over just using it at any possible chance, it's fun but I'd rather each use be a save or funny for everyone).

@RegularEggs, if you edit your post you can go over the word count limit.

So you can for example write it all, copy it (perhaps paste it somewhere if you spent a lot of effort on it, just in case), cut it down under the limit, post that portion, edit the post, paste it all in.

Going the WoW route and giving players an item that prevents the use of friendly displacement skills would be something I could see SE doing "Maybe" overall this seems like a nonissue to me. Some players in this game are true snowflakes.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I've adjusted my stance to simply wanting Rescue to be a toggle you can opt out of. This leaves the ability in tact for people who want it and takes it out of play for people who don't want to deal with it.
.

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So while some players can now chose to not be forcibly dragged around other players are forced to deal with the consequences of someone not getting rescued in time.
How is that better? The one's who don't want their precious skin touched by Rescue are more important than the rest of the party (escpecially the healer)? One way or another some players will have to bite the bullet. The inconvenience of a well-intended but poorly timed Rescue is generally much lower than the consequences of someone dying who could've been rescued.
Abuse of Rescue is reportable so the ToS are already on your side. You see questionable use of Rescue, you speak up and possibly report it. If you don't, that's on you.
But if someone dies or the party even wipes when they could've been rescued, the others can only grit their teeth and hope they do it right this time.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

So while some players can now chose to not be forcibly dragged around other players are forced to deal with the consequences of someone not getting rescued in time.
How is that better? The one's who don't want their precious skin touched by Rescue are more important than the rest of the party (escpecially the healer)? One way or another some players will have to bite the bullet. The inconvenience of a well-intended but poorly timed Rescue is generally much lower than the consequences of someone dying who could've been rescued.
Abuse of Rescue is reportable so the ToS are already on your side. You see questionable use of Rescue, you speak up and possibly report it. If you don't, that's on you.
But if someone dies or the party even wipes when they could've been rescued, the others can only grit their teeth and hope they do it right this time.

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If someone dies they die. If the entire group doesn't want to deal with the possibility of someone dying that could've been Rescued they can vote kick people who refuse to enable rescue. I'm honestly fine with that.

If a group decides they don't want to deal with my "No Rescue" position then they don't have to play with me. That's a lot better than them forcibly taking control of my character.

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

So while some players can now chose to not be forcibly dragged around other players are forced to deal with the consequences of someone not getting rescued in time.
How is that better? The one's who don't want their precious skin touched by Rescue are more important than the rest of the party (escpecially the healer)? One way or another some players will have to bite the bullet. The inconvenience of a well-intended but poorly timed Rescue is generally much lower than the consequences of someone dying who could've been rescued.
Abuse of Rescue is reportable so the ToS are already on your side. You see questionable use of Rescue, you speak up and possibly report it. If you don't, that's on you.
But if someone dies or the party even wipes when they could've been rescued, the others can only grit their teeth and hope they do it right this time.

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I really don't get this obsession people have with other players asking for a way to toggle off being able to be rescued. Its very simple. I can trust the healers in my static and those who i have communicated a rescue strat with previously to use it only when necessary. PUG healers tend to use it at the first sign of you maybe not deciding to get out of something right when they think you should, whether that something is lethal or not.

Like I'm not even talking about trolling, as i almost never see it used for that purpose. Just like rescuing me out of a mechanic I was prepared to eat with manaward or riddle of earth, or pulling me out of leylines/ position into an Earthly Star explosion when I have full health.

A toggle would allow players to enable or disable rescue depending on the content and their party. If you really are feeling some type of way about if someone dies when they can't be rescued just leave them dead and kick them after.

@OP you clearly have been tanking for awhile and have even posted on other tank related threads. From what I've gathered, you have no issue with wtw pulls.

My first set of questions is why did this gesture of a healer rescuing you into other mobs offend you so much? Clearly they were thinking the same thing you were already thinking.
Was the gesture itself what you find rude? Was this in a pre 50 dungeon where some mobs can be avoided?

These are genuine questions I would like to understand to better see why you strongly dislike the ability Rescue based off of this one incident.

and if your answer is that you mainly see this happen to sprout tanks i refer to my last comment.

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Originally Posted by RegularEggs

OP also pointed out that this happens a lot to newer tank and I ask, what did you do to help the situation? Did you tell the healer to stop? Or rather, did you try to help the tank understand his abilities/cooldown rotation to help him in later dungeons where wtw is expected? If you just left the dungeon without saying anything you're just as bad as the people you're complaining about.

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Originally Posted by RegularEggs

@OP you clearly have been tanking for awhile and have even posted on other tank related threads. From what I've gathered, you have no issue with wtw pulls.

My first set of questions is why did this gesture of a healer rescuing you into other mobs offend you so much? Clearly they were thinking the same thing you were already thinking.
Was the gesture itself what you find rude? Was this in a pre 50 dungeon where some mobs can be avoided?

These are genuine questions I would like to understand to better see why you strongly dislike the ability Rescue based off of this one incident.

and if your answer is that you mainly see this happen to sprout tanks i refer to my last comment.

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It's someone yanking you away from your finished pull because they've decided THEY'RE going to tell you when you're finished pulling. This is done instead of simply asking the tank if he would make larger pulls. If you don't find this to be rude then there's probably not a way I could explain it that would change your mind.

I dislike Rescue in general because it completely interrupts and re-positions you. Honestly, I can't think of many things that could happen to you mid fight in this game that would be more off-putting and annoying.

As for what I did to help the new tanks; I generally did nothing. If they had spoken up against it I would've absolutely backed them up, but as a general rule I don't start conflicts on other peoples behalf. The new tank is already probably nervous and/or embarrassed as it is; 2 people arguing about how "bad" he is won't make him feel better.

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I really don't get this obsession people have with other players asking for a way to toggle off being able to be rescued. Its very simple. I can trust the healers in my static and those who i have communicated a rescue strat with previously to use it only when necessary. PUG healers tend to use it at the first sign of you maybe not deciding to get out of something right when they think you should, whether that something is lethal or not.

Like I'm not even talking about trolling, as i almost never see it used for that purpose. Just like rescuing me out of a mechanic I was prepared to eat with manaward or riddle of earth, or pulling me out of leylines/ position into an Earthly Star explosion when I have full health.

A toggle would allow players to enable or disable rescue depending on the content and their party. If you really are feeling some type of way about if someone dies when they can't be rescued just leave them dead and kick them after.

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The reason why this will not work is because, what is the point of the toggle? If other players can deliberately disable a spell on my hotbar, then what's the point of having the spell altogether. They might as well remove the spell at that point.

I think a general consensus is that spell has it's uses. Either keep it or remove it all together.

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Originally Posted by RegularEggs

The reason why this will not work is because, what is the point of the toggle? If other players can deliberately disable a spell on my hotbar, then what's the point of having the spell altogether. They might as well remove the spell at that point.

I think a general consensus is that spell has it's uses. Either keep it or remove it all together.

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You would still have the ability for the people who actually WANT you to Rescue them... Does the ability only have meaning if you can force it on people against their will?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

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Hell no.

/char

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If someone dies they die. If the entire group doesn't want to deal with the possibility of someone dying that could've been Rescued they can vote kick people who refuse to enable rescue. I'm honestly fine with that.

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I mean... it can be more than "if someone dies they die". There are a lot of mechanics out there where if you don't have a certain number of players positioned right, other people die to a mechanic, or the entire party does, in which case the group is dealing with "If someone dies, I die." And I feel like in that case, just sitting and watching it happen is potentially not playing my role as a healer.

I've had a scenario running Alliance Roulette a couple of weeks ago where I got Labyrinth of the Ancients and we were one short on the pad with the second cast of Ancient Flare just short of finishing, because DPS had gotten greedy and were trying to push enough to finish the fight before the cast was done. (As frequently happens.) One of the DPS who got greedy was sprinting to the pad... and while they were the closest of the set, it was clear even they would not make it in time. Without one more on the pad, the barrier doesn't come up and the entire alliance wipes. I pulled them the rest of the way with Rescue, and the barrier went up just before the Ancient Flare cast finished.

Obviously, in that case, they didn't mind; I just pulled them the rest of the way to where they were already clearly trying to get. But imagine now that I just decided "oh, well, it would be rude to Rescue them without asking first" and just stood there watching while the entire party wiped when I could've prevented it; as I said above, I feel someone could make a solid argument that I had not played my role as healer—i.e., "keep the party alive"—properly or well there.

I can definitely see people turning the option on for one duty, forgetting they have it on, and Shirk immunity causing a failure to tank-swap in a trial roulette or a wipe to Rescue immunity during mechanics like Ancient Flare in another duty later. And I wish I couldn't, but I can see people who are impatient or annoyed by a wipe in such a scenario immediately initiating a vote-kick against the person who caused it by preventing a Shirk or Rescue through that setting. Especially if the general community mindset is "if you use this option and we don't like it, we're supposed to kick you".

This isn't necessarily an argument against an option to disable Rescue on themselves—or, for that matter, an option to make yourself similarly immune to Shirk—but more I suppose I'm just not sure "if you don't like people using Rescue/Shirk immunity, just kick them" is fundamentally different than "if you don't like people being jerks with Rescue/Shirk, just kick them", just with the added complication of a setting people could accidentally leave on, piss off folks with, and get kicked for.

(It definitely is an argument on my part against removing Rescue and/or Shirk entirely just because they can be misused for trolling.)

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

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Without reading this whole thread and just taking this question "as is" without to much of the context of said thread (and as someone whos been a paladin main since 2.0) my short answer is: No.

The longer answer is that its obviously up to the whole group, their gear, skills and to a degree wishes that determines the speed and style of a dungeon run. You can pull as much as you want as a tank - if the DPS cant kill stuff fast enough, if the healer cant keep up, it simply wont work. On the other hand mass-pulling really, really isnt difficult - certainly not more difficult than single pulls, at least not as long as the whole group plays along (aka: dps not going all out on a single mob while you're still pulling or the healer spamming heals on you during that phase). So if the group prefers masspulls and can handle them, thats the way to go.

In a... different - I dont want to say "better" - world, we'd have a conversation at the start of each run to discuss how the group is going to approach this dungeon. Since dungeons are pretty easy and quick and dont require much strategy, that rarely happens, though. I know that some people will speak up at the beginning, asking what pull-size the group would prefer, but it doesnt happen all the time. (I'm often enough in parties where people dont even say "Hello")
So, without having an agreement upfront, you kinda need someone making the calls - and to me a tank is in a prime position here. A good tank (in my book) will default to mass-pulls and adjust if they notice the need to. That can either be after a fail or struggle with a masspull or even right at the start, for example if the tank notices that people have bad gear, are new to the dungeon or that you're in a dungeon where no one (except for the tank) has any AoE.

At the end of the day the speed of the dungeon depends on the groups ability and prefered playstyle. If nothing is discussed, its the tank job to make the initial call and everyone elses job to play along OR speak up. Ideally with words in a polite manner. Running dungeons is a team effort after all, so we should all be team players - tanks might take on the role of team leaders, but a good leader isnt someone who forces their own agenda onto others, but someone who considers the strengths and needs of his fellow team mates.
A tank can set the pace of the run. The team needs to confirm that its a good pace.

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Originally Posted by RegularEggs

The reason why this will not work is because, what is the point of the toggle? If other players can deliberately disable a spell on my hotbar, then what's the point of having the spell altogether. They might as well remove the spell at that point.

I think a general consensus is that spell has it's uses. Either keep it or remove it all together.

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There could be other people in the party who have it enabled? And again the point of the toggle is that there are niche cases and strategies where rescue is extremely useful, primarily in savage and ultimate with statics.

Outside of those cases, some players would rather not be rescued. It shouldn't be a difficult concept to understand.

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This isn't necessarily an argument against an option to disable Rescue on themselves—or, for that matter, an option to make yourself similarly immune to Shirk—but more I suppose I'm just not sure "if you don't like people using Rescue/Shirk immunity, just kick them" is fundamentally different than "if you don't like people being jerks with Rescue/Shirk, just kick them", just with the added complication of a setting people could accidentally leave on, piss off folks with, and get kicked for.

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First, being a jerk with Rescue is far more intrusive and disruptive than not wanting to be Rescued is. Rescue abuse isn't something I feel you should need a unanimous vote from the group to protect yourself from.

Also, there's another part of this. Even well intended Rescues can be detrimental. If I know a fight well and am trying to maximize uptime I don't want errant Rescues disturbing my play. That's not something you can kick people to avoid dealing with; it's just a looming annoyance.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

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Nah. My default speed is wall to wall, but if dps refuse to AoE then it can't be done and the group has to go slower.. Granted in most of those cases I vote dismiss or leave but still.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

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Of course not.
Group content means cooperation.
If you want to go faster and can handle it, then be polite about it and say something
If things still aren't going at a pace that you desire, then either kick, or leave, but it's most definitely not ok to drag the tank around with Rescue against their will.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's someone yanking you away from your finished pull because they've decided they're going to tell you when you're finished pulling. This is done instead of simply asking the tank if he would make larger pulls. If you don't find this to be rude then there's probably not a way I could explain it that would change your mind.

I dislike Rescue in general because it completely interrupts and re-positions you. Honestly, I can't think of many things that could happen to you mid fight in this game that would be more off-putting and annoying.

As for what I did to help the new tanks; I generally did nothing. If they had spoken up against it I would've absolutely backed them up, but as a general rule I don't start conflicts on other peoples behalf. The new tank is already probably nervous and/or embarrassed as it is; 2 people arguing about how "bad" he is won't make him feel better.

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1) Sorry, if I worded that badly. I'm not exact great at phrasing my questions correctly. I can agree that it is a rude gesture, but rude enough to warrant a post asking to remove the skill, i don't think so. Even you've agreed that there have been some good uses that comes of it. Simplifying the spell to this one gesture is ridiculous.

2) Would you prefer having your combo delayed but alive, or dead simply because you didn't dodge something in time. At least in the former example, it is recoverable. Maybe frustrating to you, but you would've only been delayed by a GCD or two compared to death.
But in the sense of trash pulling, you're aoeing. There are no positional, and there are no death defining aoes that can kill you in dungeons. But again I have to state, it's a rude gesture indeed. Does it warrant the complete removal the spell, absolutely not.

3) Thank you, you have just proven that you're no better than the healers you are complaining about. The lack of communication there means you have have no intention of bettering the community you belittle.

I know that some people take offense to the smallest things, but a simple gesture of "Hey, I main tank. If you want I can give you some pointers to help with bigger pulls." or something as unobtrusive to lend a helping hand can go a long way towards avoiding these exact scenarios you're complaining about. Being new does not inherently make you bad. It's being unwilling to learn. But then again, you already proven that you don't care.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You would still have the ability for the people who actually WANT you to Rescue them... Does the ability only have meaning if you can force it on people against their will?

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1) Since trolling is such a common occurrence (never have i experienced, but let's just say), who's going to leave the toggle on? Will I as a healer be able to see who I can and cannot rescue. And if 90% hell if 50% of the player base doesn't want to be rescue'd why is it an ability. The skill is essentially worse than useless, it's a dead skill.

2) Apparently being moved against your will is the only thing you see Rescue as. As stated before, it has a lot of other unique uses that warrant the skill. but if you want to dumb it down to that, the answer would still be yes. The ability to potentially save someone or the team from dying is invaluable.

Now, do I think we absolutely need Rescue in the game? Maybe not. We'll live without it. So as I said before, you either keep it, or discard it altogether.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

First, being a jerk with Rescue is far more intrusive and disruptive than not wanting to be Rescued is. Rescue abuse isn't something I feel you should need a unanimous vote from the group to protect yourself from.

Also, there's another part of this. Even well intended Rescues can be detrimental. If I know a fight well and am trying to maximize uptime I don't want errant Rescues disturbing my play. That's not something you can kick people to avoid dealing with; it's just a looming annoyance.

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Here is where I have to disagree completely. In savage content where DPS matters, people know DPS are maximizing uptime. I have never seen any healers of savage level rescue anyone out of sheer rudeness. It's always a last second resort where they feel like you definitely weren't going to make it, or couldn't decide whether to rescue you or not and you end up dying. I can't speak for all casual content entirely but generally they are not that difficult so losing a few GCDs is not going to kill you. Report the player for griefing, and move on with your day.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

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Nope, it's a decision between the Tank and the Healer and the DPS are along for the ride. Hence why I'll always be a proponent of asking the healer how they want their pulls when I'm tanking, or encouraging a tank to double pull at the START of a dungeon when I'm in public content.

inb4 DPS get mad at me: i'm sorry lol, this is just my opinion. It might not be right but I definitely don't even bother to ask you how you want the dungeon. You don't keep me alive with live saving heals! xD

@RegularEggs

1) Removing the skill isn't necessary; we've moved past that. A toggle is perfectly reasonable.

2) Not all AoE's are death; DPS have defensive CDs and heals that they're managing and often would rather eat an AoE than break their rotation. I'd rather not have healers mucking up my plans.

3) Really? Not offering an unsolicited lecture on pulling makes me just as bad as a griefer? Get serious.

Finally, DPS matters everywhere, not just in Savage. Things die faster when I'm not being interrupted by my team.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

First, being a jerk with Rescue is far more intrusive and disruptive than not wanting to be Rescued is. Rescue abuse isn't something I feel you should need a unanimous vote from the group to protect yourself from.

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Mm. Fair enough. I agree Rescue is disruptive, and often there's a bit of natural indignation at being Rescued when you thought you had something under control. However, I feel that if the choices not to do given mechanics lead to the party wiping, you could argue those choices are disruptive to everyone else's play. But I also recognize that's wholly subjective opinion and thus not something we'll likely come to an exact agreement on, so it's not going to be a good use of either of our time to go back and forth trying to convince each other that a subjective opinion has the validity of objective fact. 'cause we'd both be wrong. :)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Also, there's another part of this. Even well intended Rescues can be detrimental. If I know a fight well and am trying to maximize uptime I don't want errant Rescues disturbing my play. That's not something you can kick people to avoid dealing with; it's just a looming annoyance.

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I mean, yes, but a LOT of things can be unintentionally detrimental?

For instance, I have had paranoid Paladins heal themselves up with Clemency the moment they start to lose health; I know they're trying to help, but if I'm playing Astrologian I might want to let them drop lower so that I can drop an Essential Dignity on them with higher potency; if they heal up just before I hit ED and cause it to do less healing potency-wise than I planned on, it can end up not healing them to full when it otherwise might have. If they need to be at full for some reason shortly thereafter, I now have to use a SECOND heal to finish topping them off when it would've previously been one. Usually it's just a momentary annoyance, but so is a Rescue when you didn't expect one.

Now, I'm fairly sure a lot of tanks who don't play healers don't realize how the healer might be letting them drop low deliberately because one big heal is a lot more efficient in terms of rotation (and often MP use as well, especially if additional healing in that moment might require the use of—*shudder*—GCD skills), and how healing themselves up can counter-intuitively sometimes make it harder for the healer to heal them. So I never ascribe this to malice.

But it doesn't mean having a chunk of your Essential Dignity's potency stolen away unexpectedly isn't disruptive on some level.

Now, you can argue that a toggle a healer could put on to disable Clemency having any effect during a run would prevent this disruption, and you'd be right. But I think most people would (rightly) point out this is instead hugely disruptive to the tank who now cannot do something they're expecting with an ability in case they do need it. (And also turning off Clemency would be insanity, because when it's used right it can be a lifesaver.)

I'd point out the same is arguably true of a healer who wants to keep the party up and is expecting to be able to rely on Rescue in that moment they need it, especially if that Rescue use is the difference between the party wiping or not.

Granted, the situations on those two abilities differ wildly in various other aspects; Rescue can be misused (even accidentally) far more than Clemency can, and even when Clemency does cause disruption to healing potency... well, "healers adjust". We're used to adapting to disruption. But I don't know that "even using this ability as intended can be disruptive in the wrong situation" is sufficient grounds to give a toggle for other players to turn off one of your abilities.

That said... honestly, despite the opinions I've expressed here, I don't use Rescue often enough that pulling it from the game would hobble my ability to heal or anything. I find I use it maybe once every two or three weeks at most. (Well, unless Susano pops in trial roulette more frequently, and the parties I end up in consistently agree to use the Rescue efficiency tweak for the knockback stack to let melee keep uptime.) I'd definitely miss it in those situations where I do find myself using it, but it wouldn't be the end of the world. After all, as I said earlier, healers adjust.

But I can say some of that adjustment means I probably wouldn't bother even trying to pull sprouts back when they run away with the stack marker, or get people to the pads in LotA, or yoink someone into the curtains if they're running around in a panic trying to figure out how to cleanse Mortal Flame in the Grand Cosmos. There'd be a chance they had Rescue immunity on, and then I'd just be wasting time I could be spending healing up others or doing damage.

Admittedly, it'd be a little less disruptive if you saw it as a status affliction; if I can see whether or not someone has the Rescue immunity on ahead of time because it's in the party list, then hey, I'll just ignore them and continue as always with regards to anyone else. But that comes down to communication... and I think, honestly, that communication is both the simplest solution here, and arguably the right one.

Because it doesn't take a lot just to ask the other person to please not do that if they do it once. "Hey, I actually have a plan on how I handle that mechanic, I get that you've seen folks whiff that, but if I mess up my timing that's on me; please don't use Rescue there." or "FWIW, Clemency actually makes it harder to heal you as an Astro sometimes. If I'm letting you drop a bit lower than you feel comfortable with, let me know and I'll adjust my plans, but if you can hold off on spamming Clemency it's often more efficient for me to do one bigger heal than a lot of smaller ones."

And if that person doesn't listen? Then they're a jerk, and at that point, yeah, you can probably kick them from party with a clear conscience. (And if the party won't kick them, then alternatively you can leave the party with a clear conscience.)

I'm actually quite curious if SE implements a setting in Duty Finder where rescue is auto-enabled, and can be disabled - but the players who disable rescue has to sit in a different queue from the rest of the players who do have rescue enabled - how many healers would join that queue, and how long will queue times for that kind of queue be?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I really don't get this obsession people have with other players asking for a way to toggle off being able to be rescued. Its very simple. I can trust the healers in my static and those who i have communicated a rescue strat with previously to use it only when necessary. PUG healers tend to use it at the first sign of you maybe not deciding to get out of something right when they think you should, whether that something is lethal or not.

Like I'm not even talking about trolling, as i almost never see it used for that purpose. Just like rescuing me out of a mechanic I was prepared to eat with manaward or riddle of earth, or pulling me out of leylines/ position into an Earthly Star explosion when I have full health.

A toggle would allow players to enable or disable rescue depending on the content and their party. If you really are feeling some type of way about if someone dies when they can't be rescued just leave them dead and kick them after.

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I think you misunderstood me.
I'm not completely against a toggle. If that's the only way this unneccessary drama ends, so be it. I'm just curious why some people think that the inconvenience of an unneccessary rescue (barring trolling of course) is so much worse than whatever happens when you can't rescue someone but would have saved them/ the party with it. One party gets to chose, the other has to deal with it as it comes.
Right now people can freely chose to use Rescue while others can't do anything against it unless it is
1) used for trolling, which is immediately reportable
2) they asked them to stop and they continued
With a toggle people can chose not to get rescued while others can't chose to Rescue them even if it would be beneficial for them/ the party as a whole.
All I'm saying is: one way or another, some poeple will just have to deal with things while others get to chose.
I don't think there's a perfect solution for it anyway.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

I'm actually quite curious if SE implements a setting in Duty Finder where rescue is auto-enabled, and can be disabled - but the players who disable rescue has to sit in a different queue from the rest of the players who do have rescue enabled - how many healers would join that queue, and how long will queue times for that kind of queue be?

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Another interesting add-on is the cultural implications here too. I dunno if this was talked about in this topic at all, but when I play my main on Gaia, I don't experience any issues in public content. The japanese mindset is around not being a burden on other players, where ours is very different over here.

So even pugging content on JP data centers feels like a much more wholesome, less frustrating experience. It's not perfect of course, but people are more likely to come together and shame someone that is being selfish and self-serving where here, people kinda support it or stay quiet.

So while rescue is annoying, people trolling with it or any other skill that has the potential to be disruptive will probably never go away. It's nice to vent on the OF about it on occasion but the real solution here just seems like communication. Tell people the pulls you want and if they are jerks, report it since our enhanced TOS is actually handing out strikes.

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Originally Posted by Volanesh

It is just rescue, a tool who can be as useful as it can be annoying depending on who is using it...

So many pages for such a small skill...

Peoples really like to argue against each others on trivial things based after their personal feelings when others more interesting or core matters are way more rapidly forgotten as well as the topics talking about them.

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I went to read the topics you've posted on in the forums just to understand what might be other good topics to jump to, but I see you admonishing SE for their expacs post heavensward and talking about character races...

So I think it's just all opinion. What's important to you isn't important to others. Things that impact game play in public dungeons gets people riled up. That's the point of the forums, discussion on a wide variety of topics.

It does seem unfortunate that the "Rescue" pulls to force new tanks are getting to be more common place for you, Goji. I do see a few tanks who still pull small, but I don't press the issue. I simply reserve my big healing cooldowns just in case they are gauging the group and go in big for the next possible time. From what I remember, this was usually the case and the pulls got bigger when they can see we were awake. I only remember a handful of times the whole run is small with nothing said. The rest of the times we get small pulls with the tank not adjusting yet, the other DPS or Healer speaks up to say we can handle it. I have never actually seen Rescue used to force pulls yet when I was DPS.

From my time in the Primal Datacenter, the pulls usually default to being big. As I said from before, the big suicide wall to wall pull in Mt. Gulg was even considered when I was healing as an 80 Scholar. I was still able to do it rotating the cooldown combos Summon Seraph Fairy + Fey Illumination with Dissipation. Sacred Soil, Recitation + Adloquium and Excogitation were used whenever they popped up of course.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

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Nah it's not tanks alone, but it depends on how fast dps can kill things and if the healer is struggling. I'll usually ask the healer if they are up for big pulls. If yes, then I'll pull big. If we wipe, I'll do medium pulls from then on.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

1) Removing the skill isn't necessary; we've moved past that. A toggle is perfectly reasonable.

2) Not all AoE's are death; DPS have defensive CDs and heals that they're managing and often would rather eat an AoE than break their rotation. I'd rather not have healers mucking up my plans.

3) Really? Not offering an unsolicited lecture on pulling makes me just as bad as a griefer? Get serious.

Finally, DPS matters everywhere, not just in Savage. Things die faster when I'm not being interrupted by my team.

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Let's address these points again. From a gameplay standpoint, Rescue as is functions as a tool to help save teammates from harmful positions. It serves a purpose and it serves it well enough.

1) Please refer to my quote below.

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Originally Posted by RegularEggs

1) Since trolling is such a common occurrence (never have i experienced, but let's just say), who's going to leave the toggle on? Will I as a healer be able to see who I can and cannot rescue. And if 90% hell if 50% of the player base doesn't want to be rescue'd why is it an ability. The skill is essentially worse than useless, it's a dead skill.

2) Apparently being moved against your will is the only thing you see Rescue as. As stated before, it has a lot of other unique uses that warrant the skill. but if you want to dumb it down to that, the answer would still be yes. The ability to potentially save someone or the team from dying is invaluable.

Now, do I think we absolutely need Rescue in the game? Maybe not. We'll live without it. So as I said before, you either keep it, or discard it altogether.

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2) So first tanks get to control how much damage they want to take in pulls and now the Dps too? Healers really are getting the butt end of the stick. As much as it is your job as a dps to dps, it is a healer's job to keep you healthy. A reposition from an aoe regardless if it kills or not, is a shield/heal for that same amount of damage it would've done.

3) Of course DPS mattesr. The fact is, the DPS bar is so low in casual that high DPS is not REQUIRED. And to your point, I would even argue that things will die faster when you're alive or not struck by a Damage down debuff.

This is quickly digressing to personal experiences and personal gameplay so i'll just lastly reiterate what most people have already said. Rescue Abuse is already a reportable offense. Get over your minor inconvenience and move on with your day.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

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No.

If anything, the real arbiters of dungeon speed fall on the DPS. Tanks and Healers are custodians of dungeon speed. Meaning that Tanks and Healers do everything they can to allow the DPS to be able to perform their jobs to their fullest.

Of course, the wording here is "allow." There's only so much a Tank and Healer can do on speed, thanks to SE gutting damage from both roles. DPS can do more than 60% of the groups damage if they choose to.

It's a skill that needs changed to where if don't accept it won't activate. I have had healers cause me to die from it a lot. They pull you right into attack and get you killed. I think we did just fine with out it before they added it.

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Originally Posted by RegularEggs

[...]
2) So first tanks get to control how much damage they want to take in pulls and now the Dps too? Healers really are getting the butt end of the stick. As much as it is your job as a dps to dps, it is a healer's job to keep you healthy. A reposition from an aoe regardless if it kills or not, is a shield/heal for that same amount of damage it would've done.
[...]

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This is a "yes" and "no" answer. DPS can take the risk and take extra damage if they know how much damage they will take and how much HP they can get back by using their recovery tools and/or how much damage they can prevent using their damage prevention tools.

A good example of this is the final boss in Anamnesis Anyder. When she does her second Seabed Ceremony (the one that creates the two long columns of water that are parallel and run north to south) it would be better for everyone to stay on the North end of the lines and eat one Grip hand, rather than pulling the enemy from one end to the other end. In the short run, everyone will receive damage and get a damage receive up debuff. In the long run, it can reduce the amount of damage on the back end of the fight by preventing the third Seabed Ceremony from happening (and all of the auto attacks the tank will get).

All healers have to do (if you stay North on the second Seabed Ceremony) is to pop your ground AOEs or damage prevention. I do this all the time when I run the dungeon as a healer. It's better to keep attacking and everyone use their oGCD cures and shields versus casts being interrupted to do a mechanic.

Though that is just one example out of many.

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Originally Posted by RegularEggs

Let's address these points again. From a gameplay standpoint, Rescue as is functions as a tool to help save teammates from harmful positions. It serves a purpose and it serves it well enough.

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Found the rescue abuser lmao...

Alot of your points are valid from a logical gameplay perspective of course.

But this conversation is mostly about the human motivations behind using the skill. It doesn't matter if it's an "invaluable" life saving skill in some instances if people are using as a way to force their gameplay style on someone else.

This conversation is about asking people not to be jerks because it's frustrating. That's not a minor inconvenience in a game that's all about people. MMOs are about the group experience, not the solo experience. So wanting your peers to treat you decently in public content and communicate to you isn't much to ask for.

But to each their own I'm finding. Diabolos isn't on Aether, so at the end of the day. You do you!

The problem is really not a skill, which can be very useful. The problem is that some people do not want to spend a few seconds asking the tank to make large pulls, preferring to force others to do as they like. You can change the skill, all the skills, if you like, but you will not be able to change these people. There will be those who will abuse and come up with at least one, or even two ways. Therefore, it is a matter of common sense and cooperation.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I have a question of my own for the tank mains and dabblers here. Do you or do you not think think that Tanks and Tanks alone should be the arbiters of dungeon speed?

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Nope. If I'm in a party where three people want to go slow for whatever reason, then I either expect that or leave.

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Originally Posted by RegularEggs

Let's address these points again. From a gameplay standpoint, Rescue as is functions as a tool to help save teammates from harmful positions. It serves a purpose and it serves it well enough.

1) Please refer to my quote below.



2) So first tanks get to control how much damage they want to take in pulls and now the Dps too? Healers really are getting the butt end of the stick. As much as it is your job as a dps to dps, it is a healer's job to keep you healthy. A reposition from an aoe regardless if it kills or not, is a shield/heal for that same amount of damage it would've done.

3) Of course DPS mattesr. The fact is, the DPS bar is so low in casual that high DPS is not REQUIRED. And to your point, I would even argue that things will die faster when you're alive or not struck by a Damage down debuff.

This is quickly digressing to personal experiences and personal gameplay so i'll just lastly reiterate what most people have already said. Rescue Abuse is already a reportable offense. Get over your minor inconvenience and move on with your day.

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That this differs with personal experience is the point. It's why it should be a toggle. I shouldn't be forced to live with it just because you've experienced more benefit than detriment, and you shouldn't lose it just because I've experienced more detriment.

I don't need healers to rescue me, and when they decide to it hurts my performance. I know what I can stand in.

If you have a compulsive need to forcibly correct people you can request, or demand, people leave the toggle on. If you can't come to an agreement either you can leave or vote kick; that's how it should work. Everyone being forced to do things your way only feels like a good system to you because it only directly benefits you.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I don't need healers to rescue me, and when they decide to it hurts my performance. I know what I can stand in.

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Honestly, you are not talking about Rescue now. One day, Rescue can be very useful for you. What you absolutely do not need is an abusive healer.

Unfortunately, such a person may abuse you in other ways. For example, to keep you at 20-30% HP, even before tank buster or in a phase that involves huge damage. Pull mobs and run forward with them, away from the tank and group, because it's funny. Make you heal yourself and your party members, so all your mana goes to Clemensy instead of the Holy Circle. Or make you mana empty solo heal in 70's/80's raids, being your "green DPS" co-healer.

Alas, you are not safe from this. No one is safe. It’s even sadder that you can’t do anything about it, except to kick them or leave the group. I'm really sorry that you and other players have to meet this behavior, and in most cases, even if you write a report, nothing will change.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is an interesting point, if it's true and not a gross exaggeration.

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No exaggeration on my part, most of the tanks I've encountered on Crystal, like you stated, don't do wall to wall pulls, even 2 packs seems to be out of the norm there. I honestly should start recording my time on Crystal it's crazy how different the playerbase is.


Kinda unrelated, on Light, people seem to communicate more in trials when there's a new person and help them navigate more so than on Aether and Primal. I think there really is a difference in the playerbase (some what) depending on the datacenter.

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Rescue pulling because you can't show the common decency to simply ask for something is ridiculous.

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I always ask or let them know up front that they can do big pulls. But if the rest of the party is kind of edging ahead and the tank is the only one killing one mob/pack at a time...ehhhh.

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Originally Posted by HadesNight

Found the rescue abuser lmao...

Alot of your points are valid from a logical gameplay perspective of course.

But this conversation is mostly about the human motivations behind using the skill. It doesn't matter if it's an "invaluable" life saving skill in some instances if people are using as a way to force their gameplay style on someone else.

This conversation is about asking people not to be jerks because it's frustrating. That's not a minor inconvenience in a game that's all about people. MMOs are about the group experience, not the solo experience. So wanting your peers to treat you decently in public content and communicate to you isn't much to ask for.

But to each their own I'm finding. Diabolos isn't on Aether, so at the end of the day. You do you!

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I haven't once disagreed on the stance that Rescue Abuse is toxic and you even just agreed with my points so I don't understand your leap of logic as to why I would be labeled a Rescue Abuser. But again, even if i was, guess what? You're free to report me if you happen to see me do it in-game. I'll be happy to receive the consequences of my actions.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

That this differs with personal experience is the point. It's why it should be a toggle. I shouldn't be forced to live with it just because you've experienced more benefit than detriment, and you shouldn't lose it just because I've experienced more detriment.

I don't need healers to rescue me, and when they decide to it hurts my performance. I know what I can stand in.

If you have a compulsive need to forcibly correct people you can request, or demand, people leave the toggle on. If you can't come to an agreement either you can leave or vote kick; that's how it should work. Everyone being forced to do things your way only feels like a good system to you because it only directly benefits you.

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All your argument as always amounted to is, because it inconvenience me so I want that option that only benefits me. I don't condone the actions of the toxic healers who abuse the feature, but I disagree with the suggestion of the toggle button.

So, say we get the toggle button. Does it come toggle off or on by default? Should the game explain the mechanic to new players and if yes, when? Can you toggle it on mid dungeon, mid-combat? This alone is already a nightmare in the coding scene. Things are never as simple as If __ then __ , especially in a dynamic environment. Say after a lengthy amount of time after the change is implemented. What percentage of players would need to have it toggled on to justify it as a spell that is worth putting on my hotbar, let alone a spell worth having? And if the number does not meet that set amount of percentage, should they just remove the spell?

I don't agree with the toggle method but I'm not opposed to trying. It just seems like a redundant path to take that will inevitably lead to the removal of the spell. And the argument that it's a "choice" is really ridiculous. It's an illusion of choice. If I said, hey turn this feature on for a free +10 crit. Who wouldn't turn on that feature? You're losing nothing from having it enabled while boosting your own gameplay however minimal it is. Even me, as an advocate for Rescue, would turn the feature on.. It's a no-brainer decision.

And while we're at it, let's address something that is inherently worse than Rescue trolls. Let's talk about overworld healing. If you as a lv5 sprout is killing monsters and I a lv80 WHM come and drop a Regen on you, guess what. You can't kill anything for 18s because I will take full contributions of those kills.

Was this out of your control? Yes. Is this griefing? Yes. Should they remove the ability to heal random players in the overworld? Like in every case, there are situations that will necessitate healing other people outside of you party. Case in point, alliance raid.
Do you ever see it happen? Rarely, if not non-existent because: 1) People are not inherently assholes, and 2) its a REPORTABLE OFFENSE. Just because something is being abused by players will ill-intent does not warrant the need to change the way certain things work when the thing it was intended for is working just fine.

Edit: When I was thinking about this, I was thinking about Eureka in particular. And have been corrected on the actual overworld healing, but since 5.3 is coming out soon with the Bozjan Southernfront (Eureka 2.0) my statement still stands.

If the data shows that the bad is outweighing the good, then I'm all for change. But a simple warning is enough to discourage players from griefing others because believe it or not, people don't want to lose the character they worked so hard on and paid $12+ on every month to go to waste. And if they get banned, good riddance. One less toxic player in the community.

A tank pulling 1 group at the time is not a tank Lol

I don't understand what you guys are debating, SS is by far and large better than lustrate on big pulls. You don't need to hold any heals for dungeon bosses, they don't do any damage anyways. And Recitation should pretty much always be used with excog for trash pulls.
In addition, it's not a big deal if the tank steps out of SS, and it's equally not a big deal if he gets pulled back into it. Everyone's getting upset over their flavor of bad play.