Sexual harassment

Greetings, everyone!

While I will not be removing it at this time, the addition of race and the police to the discussion does seem to be a digression that is off of the original topic, unrelated to FFXIV, and seems to be changing the tone of the overall discussion. Hopefully we can stop that side discussion so it doesn't impact the ability of the thread as a whole from continuing or cause responses to posts that may result in moderation action from the GM team.

Thank you for your understanding!

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

I disagree....people are riled up as it is...and this thread is being read by victims or at least people who know them.
Giving "supposed/alleged" testimonies of cops shooting victims is not what I call a good discussion point...example or not.
It belongs somewhere else.

The point is to help people speak up...not scare them to oblivion.

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I am not sure why you are being so incredibly aggressive with your postings for some of the disagreements made about your posts, a good portion of which didn't have hostile intent behind them in the first place. The issue that was brought up with law enforcement is another facet - I don't necessarily agree with how that argument was presented, but it is something that a lot of us minorities do concern ourselves with because that is a fact of life for us. I don't believe there was any intent to go into fear-mongering about reporting things like this to law enforcement, just bringing up another facet that may be on the minds of other folks who are experiencing said trauma in their online/real life ongoings. I don't believe that most of the victims in the original story are paying any attention here in the forums - from what I have seen, TMP is in the middle of a nasty, public war that seems to be centered on Twitter and Discord at the moment.

I am positive that Kerwin and others support coming up to law enforcement - I don't think anybody is discouraging this. I share their feelings that some individuals just may be hesitant or fearful of coming to law enforcement for a multitude of reasons. This is a very tough situation, and I feel that when it comes to something within FFXIV, it is a part of the discussion that could be taken into consideration when talking about why some victims may not initially come to law enforcement for help. On the bigger picture of things, how would the dev react to this in light of the Koike Incident, if the devs react to this at all. The mods have certainly taken notice both here and on reddit.

**edit** In light of the mod's post above, maybe it's a good idea to get away from the subject of law enforcement and fears and race - as stated above, it is a hot topic that is like to completely derail the topic.

I think we need to take a step back into this being a ingame issue and not something people have taken into real life (and hopefully never becomes a direct issue towards the player him or herself in real life as I already mentioned how some people take these issues into real life.)

The topic is about the issue of sexual harassment in the game and how to deal with it in the game.

As I said the best method is through taking a image of the actual incident and reporting it since SE always want physical proof of it. If that does not work then the next best thing is to do this old school and let the player base community know about what this person is doing. Don't forget back in the older MMOs the reputation of a player was very important to getting involved with other players in their MMO community and a bad one will easily scare them in the community to be mass blocked or prevented from playing with other people which would also lead again to a investigation on the player themselves by the game developers again to see why this is happening.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings, everyone!

LGM Enkrateia

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Will SE be able to give any statements on the matter in an official capacity at some point? I know you give general ones but would like to know their input on making it a safer environment for the community

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

When I was 18, I would not have listened to them. I was certainly old enough to understand what was going on. She knew he needed to be blocked. You don't make decisions, based on social status.

FC leader should have kicked whoever was needed to be kicked, rather than leave. Barring that the 18 year old should have left the FC. You shouldn't want to be in a FC that doesn't have your back. We all had 'friends' that weren't really friends. You drop them like a bad habit, no matter how much time you spent together.

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But were you groomed by a serial abuser and his friends?

Also important to point out that 18 year olds are children and the man in question was a fully grown adult.

You might think you'd have fared better, but hindsight is 20/20 and no one was ever as sensible and level headed as they like to think they were as a child.

He's a predator, children are very vulnerable to it, ESPECIALLY those who have been abused in the past.

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Originally Posted by Anatha

But were you groomed by a serial abuser and his friends?

Also important to point out that 18 year olds are children and the man in question was a fully grown adult.

You might think you'd have fared better, but hindsight is 20/20 and no one was ever as sensible and level headed as they like to think they were as a child.

He's a predator, children are very vulnerable to it, ESPECIALLY those who have been abused in the past.

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You aren't groomed from an online game, and 18 is an adult. You know better at 18.

I don't know about that... an 18 year old might know better than a 14 year old, assuming the 18 year old goes through the same things the 14 year old eventually will... just like a 28 year old knows better than an 18 year old (again assuming the 28 year old actually experiences what the 18 year old eventually will)

Age doesn't automatically bestow experience, it just means you've been alive longer and were statistically more likely to have experienced more things. Culture shock isn't something that only happens to 14 year olds, it's adults experiencing new things in a new place where the local adults had experienced it for most of their lives.

My point being there's no age where you just *poof* automatically know better in any given topic, let alone emotional abuse.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

I don't know about that... an 18 year old might know better than a 14 year old, assuming the 18 year old goes through the same things the 14 year old eventually will... just like a 28 year old knows better than an 18 year old (again assuming the 28 year old actually experiences what the 18 year old eventually will)

Age doesn't automatically bestow experience, it just means you've been alive longer and were statistically more likely to have experienced more things. Culture shock isn't something that only happens to 14 year olds, it's adults experiencing new things in a new place where the local adults had experienced it for most of their lives.

My point being there's no age where you just *poof* automatically know better in any given topic, let alone emotional abuse.

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18 is way past the mark of knowing better. Even 14 is past it. In fact, this person clearly did know better, but changed course. It was deemed the socially acceptable option.

Saying anyone should know better because of age is foolish... what about people who are on the autism spectrum? They don't always understand social interactions the way most of us do... and we have plenty of players who fit on the spectrum... are they just supposed to know what they are getting into? And God knows 14 yr olds can't make important decisions and few have any foresight whatsoever... how many 14 yr olds would you trust with a handgun? Or your car? And let's try to remember the emotional hormonal nightmare going through puberty was...

The lack of both comprehension at first and then empathy second, and also the amount of people thinking themselves beyond abuse and fault while being absolutely narrow-minded about the lengths to that people that want to harm others go is astounding. After chiming in every now and then I hope this thread dies down soon because a few people share some really questionable insights and it makes me lose any leftover hope for mankind.

Opinion is all good and dandy but maybe a few here should sit down and think first before actually typing a response, especially considering the sensitivity of the topic.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

You aren't groomed from an online game, and 18 is an adult. You know better at 18.

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This part is very important.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

You aren't groomed from an online game

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I don't get what you mean by this

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Originally Posted by Aellae

Opinion is all good and dandy but maybe a few here should sit down and think first before actually typing a response, especially considering the sensitivity of the topic.

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Or you know, you could jsut say "Hey,thats your opinion man," and leave it at that if you disagree.

Some people are just expressing t heir views. Not every view is great. But I take issue with this sentiment of "Think before you speak about sensitive subjects' as of late because it gets used as a means to stop people from expressing their views. It comes down to "Oh I dont like what some people are expressing. They shouldnt say anything unless they think it through (aka, they shouldnt say anything unless its closer to my world view)."

But hey, thats just my opinion, man.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

This part is very important.

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Are you serious? Obviously FFXIV isn't doing the grooming. But the people you meet behind the characters CAN. And while the technical term for adults doesn't seem to be "grooming," it can still happen. It just has more defined steps. The victims may be different ages, but the overall strategies and consequences are still the same.

I honestly don't think victim-blaming is helpful.
It takes the spotlight off the abusers and places responsibility on everyone else not to be abused. That seems backwards to me.
Of course people should take steps to protect themselves, but people have varying degrees of experience and may not always see the danger signs, especially in a social situation where the person doing the harassment has lots of friends, a good reputation in the community, or is in a position of power.
In my experience abusers often choose people who are vulnerable in some way and exploit that vulnerability.

When dealing with issues like this as a FC leader, the first thing I do, without exception, is encourage people to report and then use all the tools they have at their disposal to put distance between them and the person harassing them. However, it's not always enough, the tools we have are not perfect and since it's relatively easy to find someone in-game, even if they change their name, the abuse may not stop.

I think the most helpful response to the issues raised by The Moogle Post would be to:
- consider if we as a community (both players and Square), are doing enough to send out the message that sexual abuse will not be tolerated and to support the victims.
- look at the tools available to people experiencing harassment in-game and see if we can add to them or improve what is already there.

Poor Square, having to deal with balancing the game, creating new content, policing people who dare hurting other's feelings...now having to deal with players' shenanigans that happen outside the game.

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Originally Posted by AriaFairchild

Poor Square, having to deal with balancing the game, creating new content, policing people who dare hurting other's feelings...now having to deal with players' shenanigans that happen outside the game.

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Square's involvement should begin and end and enabling players to block each other and having GMs who will look into players who harm the community. Anything else is just silly. Sexual harassment alerts? Movements? Unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

When I was 18, I would not have listened to them. I was certainly old enough to understand what was going on. She knew he needed to be blocked. You don't make decisions, based on social status.

FC leader should have kicked whoever was needed to be kicked, rather than leave. Barring that the 18 year old should have left the FC. You shouldn't want to be in a FC that doesn't have your back. We all had 'friends' that weren't really friends. You drop them like a bad habit, no matter how much time you spent together.

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Operative word being "I". They aren't you nor do they have the same confidence, experience or thought process you do. I, too, wouldn't go along with it, however that is far easier said then done. Someone with a poor upbringing, bad past experiences, depression and all sorts of other possibilities will not be equally equipped to handle the same scenario. You have to view this from their perspective, with their personality, not your own.

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Originally Posted by Zsolen

You aren't groomed from an online game, and 18 is an adult. You know better at 18.

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Thats completely ignoring that people in online games can feel like real life friends too and can turn into great friendships and more. So I am not really sure how this cant happen in a game? Also not everyone is completely stable. Come from a bad family and suddenly that nice guy that compliments you looks like a beacon of hope. Have low self esteem, mental problems like depression or aniexty or just generally have gone throught something bad and feel down. Its exactly those that this guy went to. And we are not talking about a few sentences and they did everything he wanted.

Stuff like that takes months. Months full of being friends with someone, being worshipped and yet slowly also isolated from the rest. So yes you can be groomed throught online means because friendship cant just happen in real life.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Thats completely ignoring that people in online games can feel like real life friends too and can turn into great friendships and more. So I am not really sure how this cant happen in a game? Also not everyone is completely stable. Come from a bad family and suddenly that nice guy that compliments you looks like a beacon of hope. Have low self esteem, mental problems like depression or aniexty or just generally have gone throught something bad and feel down. Its exactly those that this guy went to. And we are not talking about a few sentences and they did everything he wanted.

Stuff like that takes months. Months full of being friends with someone, being worshipped and yet slowly also isolated from the rest. So yes you can be groomed throught online means because friendship cant just happen in real life.

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I never said people could not feel like friends. That does not impair a person's judgement. She made the correct judgement, intially.

Personally, I don't condone the actions of the guy being accused, but I also don't condone enacting a witch hunt against the guy in this fashion. I've heard the recordings and while I sympathise with the victims, there just isn't enough information to be completely sure. It doesn't really help their case when you look at the way they treated one of the GMs when reporting the issue to them. Why would you even mention that "you wouldn't buy Stormblood" when reporting someone for something as serious as sexual harassment? It just takes away from the real issue - which also included the absolute refusal to give the GM the name of the accused so they could start a proper investigation. I get that this issue is serious and that the guy needs to be punished in some way, but that shouldn't give anyone the right to harass the GMs let alone anyone that has a different opinion.

One other thing to also mention is a recent post where the guy being accused threw a curveball and accused the group of posting a cropped screenshot taken out of context. It wouldn't have mattered if the group didn't respond to that accusation, but alas, they did. While it doesn't seem like much, the problem here is that the group has been proven to be willing to post a cropped screenshot that had been taken out of context. This does bring into question on the credibility on all of their other screenshot evidence - whether or not any of the other screenshots that they had posted had also been heavily cropped and taken out of context too.

Let's stop using the phrase "witch hunt".... I know it's a popular phrase right now but the witch hunts were literally just making stuff up against people you had a grudge against and often led to the accused's death... not quite the same thing... it's hyperbole and dismissive... and again the case in the article was just what got me thinking about this as an issue in gaming... despite what you think of the article itself lets think beyond one particular instance and on to the rest of the community... I think that raising awareness that this type of thing being possible goes a long way to help curb this behaviour... letting people know they can speak out without victim shaming and the community making it clear this behaviour is not accepted should also have a positive impact....

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

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The phrase really depends how you view the meaning of it. Setting an entire community to target a specific person can be considered a "witch hunt", but it's not the only usage of the phrase. I agree with you that raising awareness of these issues is important so this sort of thing doesn't happen again, but as a whole, we're all kinda backed into a corner. If these allegations prove true, then yes, more people can speak out about their experiences without fearing backlash, but that also presents an opportunity for others to abuse this fact to maliciously target someone. On the other hand, if this turns out to be a coordinated hoax, then this brings up the credibility of future claims and ruins it for other victims; not to mention that we, as a community, managed to let this fester. We have statements from both parties now, and honestly I'm still not too sure - though, there seems to be more evidence pointing towards the latter.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

The phrase really depends how you view the meaning of it. Setting an entire community to target a specific person can be considered a "witch hunt", but it's not the only usage of the meaning.

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Well if the Janes in the initial outbreak take to legal matters, or the offender will since he also has a rebuttal blog that is for them to work out. I am not here to say whether or not he should go to jail or even encourage a campaign like that, it is a definite witch hunt.

I think though after multiple women are giving warning about the same problematic behavior from an individual it stands to note it is more awareness. They also mention it interfering with gameplay because of the relationships they made. It is for either other victims to come forward, or for people to remember the precautions when going online.

The problem is when people are not understanding that after this saying things in the "should have known better" in regards to the women victimized and even males, because apparently men were also ostracized from the ordeal, either because they weren't liked or part of his approval list.

That's the thing, no matter how you want to paint a Jane as a cheater, or other derogatory words for her sexual choices. The accused decided to beg the question of the various Janes motives in all this.

Well, the thing is the accused didn't refute anything about ostracizing users or yelling at the various women when they interacted with other males in the game. He didn't refute using tactics as stating he would engage in self harm if the relationship didn't go his way. He didn't refute that he was asking women to read his erotica or bring up sexual topics when completely inappropriate. I mean I get when people make a sexual joke or flirtation here and there, and a person asks or declines the conversation continue - and the person agrees. It is abuse to keep persisting in hoping the person will eventually go along with it.

Again I was trying to see if this was an isolated issue or more widespread and if it is more of a problem than one particular group of people what can we the players do going forward... I'm well aware that this one case isn't something we can really judge but that's not the point... the point is to raise awareness of a possible threat to a vulnerable part of the community and find ways to protect them should the need arise...

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Again I was trying to see if this was an isolated issue or more widespread and if it is more of a problem than one particular group of people what can we the players do going forward... I'm well aware that this one case isn't something we can really judge but that's not the point... the point is to raise awareness of a possible threat to a vulnerable part of the community and find ways to protect them should the need arise...

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It is widespread. Have had some issues with it on the server I am on, but the issue broke more out on a facebook group. Or rather the worst of that behavior. In PSN chat I have had a guy harass me till I blocked him and didn't want to stir drama in a Linkshell I ran by simply kicking him out - I wouldn't call it blatantly sexual, but he did seem more fixated on me due to my gender.

I wouldn't say it's as big as other games but it's enough for concern imo.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

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I agree with you for the most part. However, due to the nature of the situation, the guy being accused has been given very few options to refute the claims towards him - none of his statements are taken seriously anymore. It's not that he won't refute the claims moreso the community pushed him into a corner to the point where he can't refute the claims and be taken seriously. Mind you that this doesn't make him innocent. Honestly, I think both sides handled the situation very poorly which limited the scope for discussion.

Some may consider me a victim blamer since I am in the camp that assigns degrees of fault to nearly every action or in some cases inaction. As a society their is very little we can do to help victims of abuse if they do not come forward. Also it would make the jobs of those that investigate such issues more efficient if victims sought help sooner instead of sometimes years after the fact. I will not pretend to understand the about the emotional stress such an ordeal puts on a person, but waiting years in some cases to come forward due to fear of being judged or not believed does not make much sense to me. I am not sure what we can do as a society that fosters an environment that is welcoming to those that are victims of abuse.

At the core we need to educate people on what they can do to protect themselves in the most practicable way, but even with all the protections in the world if you indulge in an act one should understand that certain risks come with an action, and no one is immune from it. If one feels abused seek help ASAP, no matter how tough it will be, no matter how much others will judge you, and please do not let stories of people trying and nothing happening hinder you from seeking the help you need. No system is prefect we are all human and as such anything we do will always have flaws, but inaction does not help anyone or resolve the issue. Many might disagree with me, but I do not feel trying to get the mob on your side to shame and shun someone is not the proper way to go even if it may seem like the easiest.

First line of defense starts with you. If you are victim learn from it and try to ensure it does not happen. If this never happened be glad but do not think you are immune to it, learn from the stories of other victims and please protect yourself. Do not shut yourself off from online encounters, but understand every action comes with a risk weigh out those risks and make sure you are personally ready to handle such risks if they were to happen. I hope what I am saying makes sense, it was never my intent to be viewed as a victim blamer, am I just a firm believer in personally responsibility. Be smarter learn from others mistakes not only your own. We live in a world where a plethora of information is a google search away use it. I do not think we will ever be rid of any form of abuse or harassment, but we can mitigate through education and awareness.

All great advice when you have hindsight, which is always 20/20.

I mean you know what helps in stopping harassment? Not to do it in the first place.

Also maybe some of us would like it so we can trust men and not make them into some kind of thing we have to defend ourselves from.

The word "harassment" needs to be defined before I can comment on this. Ksenia is Hyur female and all my characters, save one are female. I've encountered attempts at sexual roleplay and I stomped them out quite quick. I'm a 50 year old man. You only need to point that out once and whatever immersion led to the innuendo dries up quick. Nobody has ever continued with their attempts once I made that clear so no, Harassment has never been a thing.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

All great advice when you have hindsight, which is always 20/20.

I mean you know what helps in stopping harassment? Not to do it in the first place.

Also maybe some of us would like it so we can trust men and not make them into some kind of thing we have to defend ourselves from.

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I am sure most people if they could magic wand away harassment they would do it in an instant, sadly that is not the world we live in. Nor do I think that is a world we will ever live in, certain people will always prey on the weakness of others, be it perceived or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

First line of defense starts with you. If you are victim learn from it and try to ensure it does not happen.

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How do you propose we do that when we have no control over what another person chooses to do and usually no foreknowledge that they intend to engage in the inappropriate behavior? Ignoring a harasser doesn't work. They're going to keep it up until they get the response they want. A restraining order will not stop them. Their victim moving will not stop them since they will continue to stalk their victim, nor should their victim have to make a life change when they are not the ones at fault.

Your attitude is the type that leads to violence because the victim has no other recourse since those like you are supporting the harasser's right to engage in that behavior by placing the blame on the victim.

You can google harassment cases all you want but the truth is nothing stops harassers from continuing in their behavior other than their conscious choice to stop, their removal from society via incarceration, their own death or the death of their victim.

What needs to happen is for parents and educators to teach children to respect personal boundaries and to understand that some behavior is never appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

I am sure most people if they could magic wand away harassment they would do it in an instant, sadly that is not the world we live in. Nor do I think that is a world we will ever live in, certain people will always prey on the weakness of others, be it perceived or otherwise.

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So you propose that we continue with sexism and treat males as something to be feared.

So much for equality.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

How do you propose we do that when we have no control over what another person chooses to do and usually no foreknowledge that they intend to engage in the inappropriate behavior? Ignoring the other person rarely works. They're going to keep it up until they get the response they want.

If you're intent on harassing me, nothing I can do will stop you short of resorting to legal action and even that may not stop it depending on your mental state.

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As a I mentioned everything comes with an inherent risk factors, and as you said we only have control over the actions we make not others so said I said just do everything you can to protect yourself, learn from others stories or even ones own past experiences. All we can do is try to mitigate the risk factors, and if something were to happen I hope they would seek help. What else can we do? Would it be nice if parents and teachers educated children to respect boundaries, yes. Their will always be those that want to test those boundaries, so I do think people should educate themselves on the signs, and the risks that come with engaging in certain acts and factor them into their choices. Personally I do not have much faith in humanity that we will ever stop those that wish to harm others. Does that mean I do not think we should not try and educate no, but I would hope people still do everything they reasonably can to protect themselves while not closing themselves off from the world.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Your attitude is the type that leads to violence because the victim has no other recourse since those like you are supporting the harasser's right to engage in that behavior by placing the blame on the victim.

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May I ask where did you get this from? Is saying that people should do what they can to protect themselves and seek out help when need be really blaming the victim? What else can they do? Take matters into their own hand and kill the harasser? Have people be viewed as guilty until proven innocent when it comes to cases such these? Maybe I am missing something but it seems as if you feel I think those that harasser others should be aloud to do so. That is not the case. I do hope one day we resolve senseless violence, and abuse towards others but until then I think we should still try to info people to do what they can do protect themselves as best as possible that is within practicable reason. If that makes sense. Might have misunderstood what you are saying, if I did I am sorry.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

So you propose that we continue with sexism and treat males as something to be feared.

So much for equality.

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What else can we do short from living with the fact that their are people in this world that wish to harm others? All we can do is live our lives and understand everything we do comes with risk factors and all we can do is try to mitigate those factors to try and prevent them, and if something were to happen hopefully seek the help needed to resolve the issue. I am more so saying people should live being aware of the fear but not controlled by it. If that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by DDkiki

Sexual harassment in mmorpg. Lol. Just blacklist ppl and stop being spoiled snowflake. This with all half-nakes miqotes running around looks like silly joke.

Really reminds me of Inotep, Artemisa and Gedran story in wow.

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Do you want to know what really bothers me about this post?
The fact that it has 68 likes.

If I'm being genuinely honest, it actually makes me ashamed to play this game.

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

What else can we do short from living with the fact that their are people in this world that wish to harm others? All we can do is live our lives and understand everything we do comes with risk factors and all we can do is try to mitigate those factors to try and prevent them, and if something were to happen hopefully seek the help needed to resolve the issue. I am more so saying people should live being aware of the fear but not controlled by it. If that makes sense.

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Yeah, the short term isn't working. Hasn't been working for decades now. It just bred a culture that women should fear men. Sorry if you know I'd like it stopped where we stop looking at men as possible rapists. As I said before a lot of this advice so after the fact it's ridiculous. You tell pregnant women "well don't have sex" Instead of looking to see what avenues to look at for the future of a possible child?

So you'll excuse my general frustration on rhetoric that does nothing when the damage is done, and keep asking people to talk about how we can change what to do about it. "Well it's hard, so I'm gonna go back on my *insert hindsight* excuse" Then try to claim "hey you're trying to shut down my speech" No, I'm asking you to think outside the box for a bit and talk about solutions going forward instead of dwelling on the past. Is it hard. OF COURSE but I'd like to believe you're an intelligent enough person to engage in this.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

However, due to the nature of the situation, the guy being accused has been given very few options to refute the claims towards him. Mind you that this doesn't make him innocent. Honestly, I think both sides handled the situation very poorly which limited the scope for discussion.

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Oh he made his own blog and people are already jumping on the bandwagon of shaming the women.

The problem was, the women came forward because it became about using the same logs he's trying to use against them now to blackmail. I mean no matter how much you sorry for the word "Slut shame" as I said before he didn't bother refuting any of the other complaints - which far goes beyond the more solacious bits... because he was worried more about refuting revenge porn even when it came to light one of the women also did something as bad in terms of privacy. Unfortunately, yes this whole thing is a mess because unlike when media breaks about these things, these women don't have a PR agent to properly put forth the information.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Yeah, the short term isn't working. Hasn't been working for decades now. It just bred a culture that women should fear men. Sorry if you know I'd like it stopped where we stop looking at men as possible rapists. As I said before a lot of this advice so after the fact it's ridiculous. You tell pregnant women "well don't have sex" Instead of looking to see what avenues to look at for the future of a possible child?

So you'll excuse my general frustration on rhetoric that does nothing when the damage is done, and keep asking people to talk about how we can change what to do about it. "Well it's hard, so I'm gonna go back on my *insert hindsight* excuse" Then try to claim "hey you're trying to shut down my speech" No, I'm asking you to think outside the box for a bit and talk about solutions going forward instead of dwelling on the past. Is it hard. OF COURSE but I'd like to believe you're an intelligent enough person to engage in this.

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The past is what will help mitigate issues in the future until we can find a solution that removes the problem completely. Why must it be one or the other? WE can easily do both and that is what I am saying. Maybe I am not expressing myself clearly, but not sure why you seem as frustrated as you do. I am not undermined or belittling the experience of those who have been impacted by such things. Is telling people to protect themselves so wrong? As for your pregnant example, like I mentioned everything we do comes it an inherent risk factor and only you (general you) can determine if that risk factor is worth it, and see what you should do to mitigate the risk factors. Still understanding that something could go wrong and you could end up pregnant. Is that really so wrong?

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Originally Posted by Rogatum

The past is what will help mitigate issues in the future until we can find a solution that removes the problem completely. Why must it be one or the other?

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Again, I think you're an intelligent enough person. However, I don't think you are stating what I'm getting at. The past is not mitigating the future when there is a problem now. Again, how is telling a pregnant woman who needs help now for example, "don't get pregnant" It's basically hand washing. I'm asking you again what steps now can you think of instead of clamoring to the that excuse that we can do to help victims now. We just ignore it and cling to a past excuse?

Let's put this in another way using this comparison on how this dialog with you at its current state is frustrating.

Two people are renting a place, turns out one of them is a bit short on rent.

Person A: I'm going to come up a little short on rent this month.

Person B: What? Why didn't you save enough to make sure this didn't happen.

Person A: I know, but right now can you help me come up with ideas on what I can do for this month

Person B: Well you should save enough money to make sure it doesn't happen.

Person A: Well, what is it that we can do now to make sure rent is paid off now?

Person B: Well to mitigate this problem you should have saved enough money to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Person A: Yeah okay, but again what can we do about paying rent now?

Person B: Why is it wrong for me to tell you that you should have saved money so you could have paid off rent this month.

Person A: Look, I'm asking what can we do about NOW.

It's only happened to me once so far. I just had a GM take care of it. After that never had another problem.