Built-in Parsers

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Originally Posted by Heart-of-Asia

After the Shirogane patch first came out I was a few days late to doing one of the new dungeons. Ended up in there with a healer that hadn't done the dungeon either. Was trying to adjust to SMN changes on top of trying to REMEMBER dungeon mechanics from the video I watched prior to entering. I ended up raising the healer on several occasions along with other party members. The tank got really nasty with me and asked me why I wasn't doing enough DPS cause they were parsing. I legit haven't been in a dungeon since. Very demotivating.

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Would report for harassment.

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Originally Posted by Heart-of-Asia

After the Shirogane patch first came out I was a few days late to doing one of the new dungeons. Ended up in there with a healer that hadn't done the dungeon either. Was trying to adjust to SMN changes on top of trying to REMEMBER dungeon mechanics from the video I watched prior to entering. I ended up raising the healer on several occasions along with other party members. The tank got really nasty with me and asked me why I wasn't doing enough DPS cause they were parsing. I legit haven't been in a dungeon since. Very demotivating.

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Sounds like you were doing your job and more. If nothing else you were definitely making effort. Don't let that tank or their parsing stop you from doing what you want.

If they add it into the game it'll be at the end of FFXIV's lifespan (doubtful even then). Until then, if you're on PC, use it if you want to or don't. Doesn't really matter what another player thinks or how the devs feel about it because no one is going to ban you over it unless you're using it to harass someone. They won't even know you're using it unless you mouth off about it anyways.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Nope.

A personal parser is fine for perfecting your own personal rotation and experimenting with gear builds and such sure.

A group parser is needed to show you who you should be considering giving the boot. A personal parser can't serve this purpose.

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This is the exact argument we want to avoid when it comes to parsing. Parsers should be used as a tool for improvement, not for exclusion.

There is a very deliberate attempt in this game to avoid excluding players from content, regardless of skill level. In various interviews, Yoshi-P has stated part of the reason he's avoided Talent Trees is the fear that people will exclude players who have the "wrong" builds. This game generally tries hard to avoid player harassment and cultivate a friendly community. It's debatable whether or not they've succeeded, but I think it's clearly an issue they take seriously.

I'm personally neutral on Parsers, but as long as the argument is "Give me Parsers so I can Kick Bads", we're not going to get them. If the argument were "Give me parsers so I can have the information to help myself and my team improve", then your argument seems a lot stronger. It should be a tool for Positive Reinforcement, not to shame others for their poor performance. Unfortunately, I'm unsure how you'd design a parser for that. Maybe it could work like a Combo Counter in Fighting Games, mentioning your DPS is "Excellent" when it's great, but staying silent if your performance is low. It would naturally encourage players to improve, without insulting them if they're not as skilled. Even then, it's a very fine line, and I understand why SE is hesitant to officially support it.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

This is the exact argument we want to avoid when it comes to parsing. Parsers should be used as a tool for improvement, not for exclusion.

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If you want to be dishonest about it, sure.

E-peen and call outs are the top reasons to use it in them in fights. Learning/perfecting your rotation, experimenting on a target dummy is why you use it outside of fights.

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Originally Posted by Heart-of-Asia

After the Shirogane patch first came out I was a few days late to doing one of the new dungeons. Ended up in there with a healer that hadn't done the dungeon either. Was trying to adjust to SMN changes on top of trying to REMEMBER dungeon mechanics from the video I watched prior to entering. I ended up raising the healer on several occasions along with other party members. The tank got really nasty with me and asked me why I wasn't doing enough DPS cause they were parsing. I legit haven't been in a dungeon since. Very demotivating.

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Bet that tank uses his parser in Satasha baby too.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

E-peen and call outs are the top reasons to use it in them in fights.

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And that's exactly the reason why they will never, EVER be officially supported.

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Originally Posted by Heart-of-Asia

After the Shirogane patch first came out I was a few days late to doing one of the new dungeons. Ended up in there with a healer that hadn't done the dungeon either. Was trying to adjust to SMN changes on top of trying to REMEMBER dungeon mechanics from the video I watched prior to entering. I ended up raising the healer on several occasions along with other party members. The tank got really nasty with me and asked me why I wasn't doing enough DPS cause they were parsing. I legit haven't been in a dungeon since. Very demotivating.

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In this scenario, reporting the person would be the best course of action. The fact they were parsing wasn't the problem, it was how they chose to use that information, which in this case was to attack you

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

E-peen and call outs are the top reasons to use it in them in fights.

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Only imbeciles use parsers for that. These are the people that should be reported.
Also 9 times out of 10, those types of people have lower numbers overall then everybody else, they're POS players who just want to rustle your jimmies

You don't want to believe people can use parsers for improvement? Fine. But understand that parsing a dummy, and parsing a boss (Especially mechanic heavy fights) are 2 totally different things

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

You don't want to believe people can use parsers for improvement? Fine. But understand that parsing a dummy, and parsing a boss (Especially mechanic heavy fights) are 2 totally different things

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You don't need a parser to tell you your dps is in the toilet when you're spending the fight dead or running around panicking. A mod like deadly boss mods helps you with mechanical problems, not a parser. If you told me your dps is low because you're learning your rotation, you'd get the boot. That's something you do on your own time before the raid, not during the raid wasting everyone's time.

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Originally Posted by Heart-of-Asia

After the Shirogane patch first came out I was a few days late to doing one of the new dungeons. Ended up in there with a healer that hadn't done the dungeon either. Was trying to adjust to SMN changes on top of trying to REMEMBER dungeon mechanics from the video I watched prior to entering. I ended up raising the healer on several occasions along with other party members. The tank got really nasty with me and asked me why I wasn't doing enough DPS cause they were parsing. I legit haven't been in a dungeon since. Very demotivating.

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This is really not an argument against what's being asked for. I haven't seen anyone asking for a parser to be used in content like leveling or expert dungeons, especially against people's will.

The OP suggested separate queues for people who wish to use one and those who don't. I've suggested parser as a optional feature only to be allowed in premade parties (so not for duty finder roulettes with randoms, for example, and people would have the option to join or to not join a party that uses one). They're not needed in leveling or expert dungeons, but they're needed for things like Savage, and there's no reason to deny them from that content (especially if they're optional for players).

Meters, gearscore, ahead of the curve have all done little aside from encourage toxicity and cancerous attitudes in WoW. Bad players will stay bad. Good players will stay good. XIV is just fine with as little of this crap as possible.

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Originally Posted by Disappoint

Meters, gearscore, ahead of the curve have all done little aside from encourage toxicity and cancerous attitudes in WoW. Bad players will stay bad. Good players will stay good. XIV is just fine with as little of this crap as possible.

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Do you do any content for which this is being asked for, as in Savage, extreme primals or Ultimate? If you do, have you had any issues with parsing? If you don't, how does this concern you?

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Originally Posted by Disappoint

Thanks for proving my point lul.

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Please elaborate?

If there would be an official parser, only available for premade (party finder) groups that people could choose to join or not to join, for content where a parser is needed (Savage, Ultimate, extremes), if you don't do any of that content with those groups, how would its existence affect you? Why would you want to deny it from the people who do that content and wish to use it?

Thanks for proving my point lul.

I like how 98% of the no parser people act like it's fine for people who parser is okay to harras others. It's not really, you just report them, that simple. Illegal or legal parser, you still do it.
Then the 98% people who actually think harrasing means ''get better, no we wont have you in the group because we get enrage because of you etc etc''. it's not harrasment. Yes there are people who will talk shit, but seriously if someone underperforms I would mostlikely ask them to look for a dps guide, rotations, openers and then try the fight again with the mechanics and try do it better next time. You know it's also ''harrasement'' to hold 7 people too right? Too many here act like we ARE OBLIGATED to do your shit, when we aren't. You want to clear or win? You try as much as you can like the rest. It's team work, not you sitting back and leeching.

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Originally Posted by Disappoint

Thanks for proving my point lul.

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Nothing in Taika's response supports your comment. Your thanks is groundless.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Nothing in Taika's response supports your comment. Your thanks is groundless.

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Taika called him out. Which was his point.

Only the suck players would random queue for the higher end content and their would be next to 0 PF groups for it not using the parser.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Taika called him out.

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Called him out on what exactly? I asked him if he does the content the parsers are asked for, and then if he does, if he has had negative experiences in it with parsing. And asked that if he doesn't do the content, how would allowing parsers in that content affect him (because I can't see how it would). Can you please explain if he's unable to?

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Only the suck players would random queue for the higher end content and their would be next to 0 PF groups for it not using the parser.

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Are you claiming all players who don't use parsers are bad?

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Nothing in Taika's response supports your comment. Your thanks is groundless.

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I made a comment in which I noted the declining behavior of another game which allows tools similar to those requested in this thread. In doing so, I'm immediately accosted based on the content I choose to perform in. Take a tour of WoW's general forums for me. Find topics similar to this. It's apparent this happens to be the go-to reaction to those in favor of tools that enable division and toxicity; lash out at the those who aren't in support, as opposed to taking a look at the effects they have in the community, good or bad. It doesn't matter if self-contained to its own duty finder or groups, people will still find a way to use it for elitism, trolling, or best yet, demanding screenshots or proof of big numbers despite pulling green parses themselves to get carried in content that's easily pug'd.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Called him out on what exactly?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Do you do any content for which this is being asked for, as in Savage, extreme primals or Ultimate?

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In other words: Are you even good enough son?

Quit being dishonest, dense, and obtuse. Be honest. We want the parser in the fights so we can better see whose looking for that carry and get them out of our groups asap.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Taika called him out. Which was his point.

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Taika asked genuine questions and Disappoint responded in a childish manner.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Taika asked genuine questions and Disappoint responded in a childish manner.

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Loaded questions that don't offer insight of the topic at hand are far from genuine. Really not helping your case.

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Originally Posted by Disappoint

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Accosted? She asked if you were doing the content that players partaking in that content are seeking parsers for. She then asked what experience you had with it and if not how it would impact you. Those are valid questions with no hint of aggression in them.

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Originally Posted by Disappoint

Loaded questions that don't offer insight of the topic at hand are far from genuine. Really not helping your case.

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But your vague comment on gearscore, achievements and meters in WoW causing toxicity with no elaboration when requested is genuine and insightful?

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Originally Posted by Oscura

I get that you are anti-parsing

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I never once have said I'm anti-parsing. I do want an official in-game parser. It would be awesome. 3rd party parsers are notorious for not seeing everything.

What I don't care for is the dishonesty about their actual usage.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

I never once have said I'm anti-parsing. I do want an official in-game parser. It would be awesome. 3rd party parsers are notorious for not seeing everything.

What I don't care for is the dishonesty about their actual usage.

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Well I'm sorry for making assumptions, then.

However, there is nothing dishonest about saying specifically what one would use it for personally though. There is also nothing dishonest about what one thinks it would be used for. There are just as many people who recall from WoW, apparently the only example in the world, both parsers being used in a "toxic" manner and those who remember it going over pretty smoothly. It all depends on who you ask.

Like when you said that using parsers in battle is only to kick people or judge people. For me, that's not true. I specifically do it to improve how I play the game and determine weaker points in the fight for myself, and nothing more. Then I attempt to improve. I just do not care enough about other people to make a fuss about them. They are irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

But your vague comment on gearscore, achievements and meters in WoW causing toxicity with no elaboration when requested is genuine and insightful?

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I see no request for such elaborations. Rather, I see questions aimed at myself based on what content I take on and how a parser might effect me personally. There's no need to be disingenuous, anyone with eyes can see.

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Originally Posted by Disappoint

I see no request for such elaborations. Rather, I see questions aimed at myself based on what content I take on and how a parser might effect me personally. There's no need to be disingenuous, anyone with eyes can see.

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To say that you see no request for elaborations from Taika shows that you are the one being disingenuous here.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Well I'm sorry for making assumptions, then.

However, there is nothing dishonest about saying specifically what one would use it for personally though. There is also nothing dishonest about what one thinks it would be used for. There are just as many people who recall from WoW, apparently the only example in the world, both parsers being used in a "toxic" manner and those who remember it going over pretty smoothly. It all depends on who you ask.

Like when you said that using parsers in battle is only to kick people or judge people. For me, that's not true. I specifically do it to improve how I play the game and determine weaker points in the fight for myself, and nothing more. Then I attempt to improve. I just do not care enough about other people to make a fuss about them. They are irrelevant.

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Anyone telling you that parsers in their experience was only ever a smooth experience is either lying or didn't play that much of the game with parsers.

For you then I have to ask why you really feel the need for a parser in the fight? You should know intuitively when you mess up during the fight. I know from my own experiences for example my dps just went in the crapper after I popped my burst cooldowns and then am forced to immediately run or die. A parser isn't needed for that. Something like deadly boss mods that can give you timers and warnings about fight phase changes is what will really help you plan your ability usage and maximize your dps in the fight. All the parser would do for you is confirm what you should already know. Is this absolutely something that you need?

So, sorry, but yes, group parsers in fights are absolutely for making judgments.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Anyone telling you that parsers in their experience was only ever a smooth experience is either lying or didn't play that much of the game with parsers.

For you then I have to ask why you really feel the need for a parser in the fight? You should know intuitively when you mess up during the fight. I know from my own experiences for example my dps just went in the crapper after I popped my burst cooldowns and then am forced to immediately run or die. A parser isn't needed for that. Something like deadly boss mods that can give you timers and warnings about fight phase changes is what will really help you plan your ability usage and maximize your dps in the fight. All the parser would do for you is confirm what you should already know. Is this absolutely something that you need?

So, sorry, but yes, group parsers in fights are absolutely for making judgments.

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Okay. If you are willingly going to be close-minded then there's nothing more I can say to you. As for your question about "feeling the need," there is no need for anything. It is purely a desire. One can never argue about the need for a parser the same way one can't argue there is a need for housing. It is optional, and ultimately only a desire.

Everything you have stated is purely opinion, so please stop stating it as fact. "You should," "my own experiences," "confirm what you should already know," etc. All of these are 100% subjective and personal statements. There is nothing factual or even objective there. I do not need to justify myself to you and simultaneously my experiences are, quite clearly, completely different from yours.

Group parsers are not for "absolutely" making judgments, however, in your mind, they absolutely are.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

What's worse is it seems you can't fathom people not being like you.

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Welcome to Earth, where 0.0000001%(or less) of people can understand others have different points of view(not saying you don't...but you know, most people think everyone HAS to think exactly like them).

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Okay. If you are willingly going to be close-minded then there's nothing more I can say to you. As for your question about "feeling the need," there is no need for anything. It is purely a desire. One can never argue about the need for a parser the same way one can't argue there is a need for housing. It is optional, and ultimately only a desire.

Everything you have stated is purely opinion, so please stop stating it as fact. "You should," "my own experiences," "confirm what you should already know," etc. All of these are 100% subjective and personal statements. There is nothing factual or even objective there. I do not need to justify myself to you and simultaneously my experiences are, quite clearly, completely different from yours.

Group parsers are not for "absolutely" making judgments, however, in your mind, they absolutely are.

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Go play WoW. Get a damage meter & deadly boss mods. Fight a raid boss with no addons. Fight a raid boss only using the damage meter a few times. Fight a different raid boss with deadly boss mods. I guarantee you'll do better on the boss with deadly boss mods than you do on the bosses without.

I'm not being closed minded, I'm just pointing out you would benefit from something like deadly boss mods. For you in your example, the parser is just patting you on the back. And I say this because every time you run a fight you should improve because you are learning from your mistakes during the previous fights. Practice makes perfect as they say. Deadly boss mods gives you a heads up on mechanics so you can better avoid making mistakes. A parser doesn't do this.

And I'm sorry, but you're just being naive if you think you aren't being judged on your parses.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Anyone telling you that parsers in their experience was only ever a smooth experience is either lying or didn't play that much of the game with parsers...

...So, sorry, but yes, group parsers in fights are absolutely for making judgments.

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I disagree, meters can be of use for the right reasons. When Legion launched I and many other outlaw rogues made use of simulations and meters to determine which buffs the RNG buff mechanic our class is based around are optimal for DPS. Further, it was determined when its appropriate to reroll and when a dice roll is good enough to hang onto. Experimentation and self-improvement are two major positives meters provide. Are they worth the negativity that idiots will use them for? On my part, no, but that's subjective.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

Go play WoW. Get a damage meter & deadly boss mods. Fight a raid boss with no addons. Fight a raid boss only using the damage meter a few times. Fight a different raid boss with deadly boss mods. I guarantee you'll do better on the boss with deadly boss mods than you do on the bosses without.

I'm not being closed minded, I'm just pointing out you would benefit from something like deadly boss mods. For you in your example, the parser is just patting you on the back. And I say this because every time you run a fight you should improve because you are learning from your mistakes during the previous fights. Practice makes perfect as they say. Deadly boss mods gives you a heads up on mechanics so you can better avoid making mistakes. A parser doesn't do this.

And I'm sorry, but you're just being naive if you think you aren't being judged on your parses.

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You are now just repeating yourself and bringing up deadly boss mods, something that is completely irrelevant to the discussion of parsers and ultimately has no meaning to me because I do not need it. I don't need a crutch and I certainly don't need something to tell me how the fight works.

Also, I'm not being naive, as I never once stated I'm not being judged on my parses. I specifically said that it is, and I repeat, not "absolutely" for making judgments. Which it is not. I will continue to repeat that, because it is 100% true. Even so, to be incredibly curt about it, most of the players in this game are god awful, so I quite honestly don't care who wants to "judge." I didn't and don't even need a parser to tell me that either. I just keep to myself otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Welcome to Earth, where 0.0000001%(or less) of people can understand others have different points of view(not saying you don't...but you know, most people think everyone HAS to think exactly like them).

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Absolutely not true. Most people understand that other people have different points of views. Granted, there are fanatics who insist everyone has to believe the same as them but they are in the minority.

I honestly don't understand the naoki yoshida mindset. The man must be from mars or something. (seriously, i wonder what he's thinking) We have parsers, with or without his consent, on pc. It isn't something he can control and they basically allow it as long as you don't talk about it or harass others. Why wouldn't it be better to allow console players to do it too? Especially if they keep the "no harassment" stance.

It's currently both a way for the pc players who "want" to abuse others with it to abuse it AND a way for more kind pc players to have an advantage over anyone on console. It's twice as bad.
Console and pc players alike are getting kicked because of it AND console players cant use it, when we pc players can.

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Is it really this complicated?

Hell, People can kick you for having a "gay looking glamour", dying once or even for being a cat boy(so long as they label it differing play styles). Why don't they just idk...actually moderate the game? Pvp is full of bots and hacking. Gil bots teleport hack 24/7. Feast chat was completely removed. You know youre greedy when you start removing the components that make up a game just so you don't have to spend a tiny fraction of your million(plus some change) monthly subs to hire people that moderate and enforce the tos and general behavioral policies.

I'm of two minds on this. On one hand I really don't want to see people harassed just because they are not that good at the game. That is the kind of thing that creates a toxic environment and drives away players. Then on the other hand I want to be able to see my own numbers and the numbers of my team so we can improve where needed. In the end I think the current approach of "Don't ask, don't tell" is probably for the best right now. This is just my opinion though.

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Originally Posted by Heart-of-Asia

After the Shirogane patch first came out I was a few days late to doing one of the new dungeons. Ended up in there with a healer that hadn't done the dungeon either. Was trying to adjust to SMN changes on top of trying to REMEMBER dungeon mechanics from the video I watched prior to entering. I ended up raising the healer on several occasions along with other party members. The tank got really nasty with me and asked me why I wasn't doing enough DPS cause they were parsing. I legit haven't been in a dungeon since. Very demotivating.

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This a good argument for my belief that any in game parsing should be at the individual player level. During my early years in that other game I used recount and skada after I learned about them from some other players. They helped me learn where I was having problems and get to a point I could hold my own. However I only used them for myself or with members of my family and friend guild. I also saw them used in PUGs as a means to grief or scapegoat people which I would not want to see here. The problem is to is too easy for people to take the low road in PUGs with fully sanctioned parsing. I think the only reason it hasn't gone that way in FFXIV is SE's saying it is against the TOS but only taking action if it is abused. As to how to handle the more serious players and statics, what's wrong with the current method or using an external site to aggregate the data? It seems to me the methods are there to accommodate the current player base without the toxicity that the other game has in relation to parsers.

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Originally Posted by DeaconMoore

For you then I have to ask why you really feel the need for a parser in the fight? You should know intuitively when you mess up during the fight. I know from my own experiences for example my dps just went in the crapper after I popped my burst cooldowns and then am forced to immediately run or die. A parser isn't needed for that. Something like deadly boss mods that can give you timers and warnings about fight phase changes is what will really help you plan your ability usage and maximize your dps in the fight. All the parser would do for you is confirm what you should already know. Is this absolutely something that you need?

So, sorry, but yes, group parsers in fights are absolutely for making judgments.

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This is a poor example. Of course you'll know when you mess up an intrinsic part of your rotation, especially if it results in a death.. What a parse does is show the numerical effect on smaller mistakes or what part of your rotation is worth sacrificing if a mechanic comes up. "Should I use Battle Litany here or time it with raid buffs?" "Will Chaos Thrust last or would double Full Thrust be better?"

And yes, it judges other players based on their numbers. I fail to see the negative when used properly. Per my example a few pages back, Mr. Rockbreaker Monk basically contributed 50% less than his role should, forcing the other players to pick up her slack. This inherently makes deaths potentially more difficult to recover. Why shouldn't players who are woefully underperforming be "called out"? It doesn't need to be aggressively, but I'm also not there to carry someone else who, frankly, isn't yet suited for Savage.

Very real situation. Recently recruiting for replacement tank in my static. One guy I talked to vehemently expressed his disgust with the attitude of PF groups. Doing my due diligence to check his logs, I literally find he has the worst of the worst. Come to find out he plays on ps4, he had no idea that his damage was so low. I wanted to give him a shot because he seemed very interested in learning how to be better. After working with him one night, we increased his dps by almost 1000. He still needs a bit more improvement, but how would he have ever known how "bad" he was. What PF is gonna take the time to work with him to get better? None. While I can't say for certain, I'd be willing to bet a lot the cancer he ran in to in PF got a hell of lot worse when they saw his numbers lol

For reasons like this I'd support a personal in-game parser. It doesn't have show other people's dps, only your own. There's really no other way to get better in this game then by comparing damage. Half the "hardcore" raiding community would be shite without 3rd party plugins calling out mechanics for them, without being able to see their damage numbers compared to everyone else, without fflogs breaking down every single aspect of the fight for them. So let PS4 players be able to see their own damage, it's not asking a lot.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I appreciate your honesty. What criteria would you use to determine someone was looking to be carried versus someone who plays a job which naturally does less damage per second?

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My bar? It's not going to be the same as everyone else. You'll see people with differing opinions. But sure, my bar is someone claiming to know and cleared the fight cranking out substantially less than they should be for what they're playing with. I also consider if they were lower due to clutch plays such as hard casting a res. I won't fault someone for trying to make the run a success. If they're new to the fight I expect them to suck it up and am more forgiving, especially if they're a guildmate trying to break into the game.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This is a poor example. Of course you'll know when you mess up an intrinsic part of your rotation, especially if it results in a death.. What a parse does is show the numerical effect on smaller mistakes or what part of your rotation is worth sacrificing if a mechanic comes up. "Should I use Battle Litany here or time it with raid buffs?" "Will Chaos Thrust last or would double Full Thrust be better?"

And yes, it judges other players based on their numbers. I fail to see the negative when used properly. Per my example a few pages back, Mr. Rockbreaker Monk basically contributed 50% less than his role should, forcing the other players to pick up her slack. This inherently makes deaths potentially more difficult to recover. Why shouldn't players who are woefully underperforming be "called out"? It doesn't need to be aggressively, but I'm also not there to carry someone else who, frankly, isn't yet suited for Savage.

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Yes, you do have to make judgement calls on when to use your abilities. And yes a parse will show you your numbers going down and going up. And you will learn the things you point out over the course of your play. Preferably in trivial content or the target dummy. You shouldn't be learning to play your class at it's best when you should be learning and clearing the fight. That's where my deadly boss mods point comes from. It helps you plan ahead so you can do your best when it counts. The parse would just confirm if you nailed it or failed it after the fact.

And as I never said I'm anti-parse (i'm pro), I also never said someone shouldn't get called out, nor did I say they should aggressively get called out for that matter. I just said it's going to happen. It just doesn't happen now so much because the first rule of it is you don't talk about it.