Well yeah, cause that is likely the next patch we'll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Fury
In the meantime, we ought to keep these threads alive so that the issues that do need fixing do not fall off the radar. The main thing that is keeping DRK in a manageable state is the fact that every fight in savage right now features magical TBs, if not from the boss then from adds, and the DPS checks are relatively lenient. The moment this changes, DRK is going to create problems for groups. Meta aside, the job just feels bad to optimize. The skill floor was brought up way too high, and the skill ceiling is about an inch away from it.
DRK Consolidated Feedback Thread
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08-08-2017, 11:21 PMSyzzleSpark
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08-09-2017, 11:20 AMFalarI just voted with my wallet.Quote:
Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark
Logging in has become a chore now like the end of the last patch cycle and I had to force myself just to cap creation. Time for a loooong break until DRK is fun again. -
08-09-2017, 11:37 AMXenosan
If Dark Passenger is such shite, what's that make DA-Quietus's +50 potency?
Is it there just to punish DRK who DA between the wrong GCDs? -
08-09-2017, 11:41 AMDeceptus
Just starting to level DRK from 60 again and I'm wondering why the hell we need 5 different AOE moves. Unleash, Salted Earth, Dark Passenger, Abyssal Drain, and Quietus.
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08-09-2017, 12:07 PMKabooaUnleash is cheap radial threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deceptus
Salted Earth is DPS / Blood generation
Dark Passenger is questionable
Abyssal Drain is your go-to MP AoE when stuff is gathered
Quietus is an MP spike and enables everything. -
08-09-2017, 01:39 PMDWolfwood
So as someone working on clearing v4.0S right now, and has done v3.0S in literally every which way possible with every tank, I have to say the only reasons to take a DRK right now are:
1. It's your only job.
2. You're playing around, having fun, whatever.
3. You're on v1.0S or v2.0S where it's faceroll easy and optimization literally makes no difference.
4. You're compensating for a co-tank that doesn't want/can't run optimal setups.
WAR, while it doesn't seem strong on paper, is absolutely amazing in v3.0S as MT and v4.0S period. Holmgang's short CD timer and their massive mitigation toolkit with short cooldowns is just amazing along with the fact that their DPS is just flat out better. -
08-09-2017, 02:39 PMTintit's not too bad, since you gain the mana for Dark Arts back with Quietus, but very situational. you would rather spend the mana for more Abyssal Drain than Dark Arts + Quietus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan
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08-09-2017, 03:27 PMDauntessI'm in the same boat. My sub runs up in a couple days and I don't see myself resubbing in the foreseeable future. Not only has DRK become a chore, it just flat out sucks to play. They could have the worst DPS, mitigation, utility, but if its fun to play, I'd play it. The worst part is, it's gonna take another expansion to fix my problems with DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Falar
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08-09-2017, 06:27 PMEyvhokanIt's hitting aoe and you wouldn't use it with fewer than three targets meaning DA gets you 150+ whenever you want to use it, which is larger than the soul-eater 140. DA on drain doesn't add any damage, though the health back is handy. Seven targets and it has the same potency gain as carve & split.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan
DA on passenger uses up half your MP pool. Quietus is blood only, so doesn't drain MP. -
08-09-2017, 10:31 PMXenosanWell yeah, but Dark Passenger is also oGCD, so Dark Passenger+Quietus is better than DA+Quietus for the same MP cost. I think DRK shouldn't have any Potency increase DA effects for AOE, DP could fill that role.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyvhokan
DA+DP is another issue though. -
08-10-2017, 04:45 AMDRKoftheAzure
If 4.1 doesn't give DRK a 3rd combo finisher and more raid utility I'm just going to let my game time run out... simple as that... I suggest all DRK mains do the same...
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08-10-2017, 12:56 PMDeathshiroHell at this point I'd be happy to get something for Autos, because TBN is neither worth it or good enough for them. Also a 3rd combo action would be great to break the monotony that is 1-2-3-4 that we currently have going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
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08-10-2017, 07:19 PMCraterYou really couldn't ask for a better tool for mitigating auto-attacks than TBN. In a lot of fights it's basically just a hair shy of being as effective on auto-attacks a permanent Rampart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathshiro
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08-10-2017, 09:09 PMOstwarI would settle for some mitigation or self healing added to Blood Price.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
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08-10-2017, 11:11 PMWhyAmIHerebut for 2400 a pop, for ~5 seconds, every 15s?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crater
That's a lot of MP to be driven into a single skill to try and make up for our lacking mitigation when compared to the other options. -
08-10-2017, 11:21 PMAcceleratingAllowing Blood Price outside of Grit again would be a great start to make the skill useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ostwar
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08-11-2017, 01:47 AM347SPECTRE
I don't think making BP usable outside of Grit would make it more useful, when outside Grit we have access to Blood Weapon, which is way more reliable for MP recovery AND it also boosts damage. Whereas BP gives us MP when hit, and it's also not very much. And in an OT situation where there's no adds, I.E. we arent getting hit, it'd be useless. One way to make it useful is to increase the amount of MP we get per hit and possibly add a little bit of damage reduction for the duration of the skill(5-10% maybe), would make using Delirium on it worth it.
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08-11-2017, 02:11 AMAcceleratingThat's the problem: You want to avoid Grit as much as possible. And unless BP gives more DPS than BW and nullifies the Grit penalty it will be useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE
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08-11-2017, 11:17 AMVenKitsuneerrr no... not really. it costs you a load of MP and so its not really "on demand" as something like rampart is. you could be taking loads of damage from a boss and be like "damn time to pop a cooldown" only to see you've run out of them and you dont have enough MP for TBN. meanwhile a WAR can just switch to Defiance and use IB, and a PLD can use Sheltron, Clemency or any of its other plethra of cooldowns. DRK litterally only has 2 "main" cooldowns where as both WAR and PLD have atleast 3 (including Rampart here... without Rampart DRK litterally only has Shadow wall that is an "on demand" defensive cooldown for all damage types), not to mention that Shadow wall is just a dumbed down Sentinel with a higher recast cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crater
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08-11-2017, 11:21 AMTegernako
What are the chances of them giving DRK back old skills like they did with SCH?
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08-11-2017, 11:35 AMChrono_Rising
I think the chances are low. I sometimes like what they have, There are a lot of good thoughts. However the class has gone through a huge change and I honestly believe SE needs to add more interaction between our skills.
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08-11-2017, 12:39 PMDWolfwood
I know a lot of PLDs think they got ignored for a long time, but DRK has been entirely ignored since a few weeks after release, even suffering a notorious mess up on SE's part that broke our Dark Arts for a bit. Meanwhile PLD kept getting small buffs all throughout HW.
Both jobs needed to be buffed to WAR's level, and honestly we would've seen a much better PLD iteration if DRK had received some attention due to the fact that PLD would have been so bad that it would've forced them to address it properly. Fact is, DRK and PLD were pretty close all throughout 3.x, but they both had niches and the meta and raid design only fit DRK's.
WAR wasn't even overpowered. It was a perfectly crafted job that played amazingly well. I really wanted both PLD and DRK to be buffed to its level, but somehow DRK just got completely ignored. Now we're in 4.x, and there's still people wanting to say DRK is "fine" when it isn't. Granted, there's always going to be people saying that about every job in need of fixing, WHM/SMN/MCH all being cases we've seen.
I've about lost hope that we'll see serious addressing of DRK until it is so under-powered that it's trash. PLD isn't OP right now, just as WAR wasn't OP in HW. PLD still actually could use some tweaking, like a reduced HG CD (even if it reduces the duration) and some enmity on Total Eclipse.
DRK is simply under-powered right now and there's too many people blinded by TBN to notice it. If not enough people notice how inferior it is, SE is happy to leave things the way they are.
I suggest doing what I did and switching mains. SE won't connect the dots of people unsubbing to a specific job in need of changes. They will however notice that fewer and fewer people are playing it while playing another job.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
Basically, if you increase the number of clears on WAR and PLD, while simultaneously reducing the number on DRK, they'll notice more.
As Xeno said after noting how few people were playing WAR in v4.0S, he could "taste" the WAR buffs already. This is despite the fact that WAR is effing fantastic in v3.0S and v4.0S. WAR MT/ PLD OT is easily the best comp for these fights (granted things are hard to define in terms of MT/OT for Neo Exdeath, but WAR/PLD is still king for it). A lot of good players know it already, and eventually everyone should. -
08-11-2017, 01:56 PMAcceleratingJust because you can't manage your mana doesn't mean it's not up on demand. And did you really compare it to IB and Clemeny? Skills that should be avoided as much as possible because they destroy your DPS?Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. -
08-11-2017, 09:07 PMVenKitsunei dont think you get when im saying... im saying that if you're taking lots of damage all of a sudden and you're out of cooldowns your only option is TBN which isn't always there due to it costing MP. meanwhile a PLD or WAR can willingly lower their dps in favour of the ability to actually survive instead of dying and thus loosing even more dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelerating
Tanking isn't ALL about doing damage you know? the examples i listed are examples of being able to sacrifce your dps to actually live through mechanics, DRK has no such mechanic like that that doesn't cost MP and even then TBN is still a 15 second cooldown and only a 20% shield which is at most 2 auto attacks from a boss, IB on the other hand is on the GCD, only has about 150 less pot than Fell cleave AND is a rampart for close to 10 seconds (not to mention the self heal) which is far more effective for mitigating fluff damage than TBN is. meanwhile PLD has sheltron every 15 seconds AT NO COST to their MP and clemency if they need it. my point is that DRK has no such equivalent tool -
08-11-2017, 09:31 PMAccelerating
Because those tools are mostly useless since you shouldn't be taking damage 'all of a sudden'. Also Inner Beast not only loses you 150 potency, it also forces you to switch into Defiance for 10 seconds, which results in more dps loss.
The main reason why TBN is such a great skill is because it barely has any cost can not only be used on every tank buster but also auto attacks if time correctly. -
08-12-2017, 09:55 AMDRKoftheAzure
Like a bloodbath effect on Blood Price? because I really want that so I can actually use Blood Price more..
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08-12-2017, 10:01 AMDRKoftheAzureSo... I should switch to PLD as main if I want DRK buffs... guess I need to dye a long enough sword soot black then... good thing I DRK glamour that works on all tanks...Quote:
Originally Posted by DWolfwood
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08-12-2017, 11:37 AMNovaLevossidaOdin has you covered.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure
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08-12-2017, 06:34 PMSyzzleSparkHere's the thing. IB and Clemency are "extras". TBN is not. TBN is part of our 3 core cooldowns that every tank has (Sheltron/Bulwark/Sentinel, Vengeance/Thrill/Raw) not counting invulns and cross role stuff. Dark Knight doesn't have any "extras". This is what people aren't happy about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelerating
What's more, for those core cooldown suites, there is no real resource management required. DRK is the only tank that has only 2 "free" cooldowns and no cooldowns that last longer than 10 seconds. -
08-12-2017, 06:57 PMAccelerating??? Those "extras" are useless, IB at least. I agree that DRK defense is somewhat lacking, but I'd rather see a buff to Shadow Wall instead of another useless CD.Quote:
Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark
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08-12-2017, 09:31 PMSyzzleSparkFor real?Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelerating
IB is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and the healing throughput on Clemency is insane.
"Good for prog, bad for farm/parse runs" ≠ "Useless".
The point is, they are safety nets that PLD/WAR have and DRK does not. If we aren't going to have access to those safety nets (which are extremely useful during prog and when learning a fight, or even just covering for mistakes because, ya know, those do happen even in farm/parse groups), then yes, our existing cooldown suite needs significant buffs/re-tuning. -
08-12-2017, 10:47 PMXenosan
Change Dark Mind to a third Blood Weapon/Price ability.
<in here>
Dark Mind: 20s duration, 40s recast. *cancels the effect of Blood Weapon, *cancels the effect of Blood Price. Reduces MP cost by 25%, reduces Abilities cooldowns by 30%.
Increase Price/Weapon to 20 second duration also.
Delirium + Blood Weapon: Extend Weapon duration by 10 seconds, WS/Spell recast enhanced from 10% reduction to 15%.
Delirium + Blood Price: Extend Price by 20 seconds, heal DRK for 1200 potency, Delirium CD reduced to 60s
Delirium + Dark Mind: Extend Mind by 10 seconds, resets C&S, DP, Salted Earth, TBN, & Shadow Wall cooldowns, Delirium CD reduced to 90s
Shadow Wall: 60s recast, 10s duration.
*Restores partial MP when damage is taken
*Erects a barrier nullifying 30% damage of the next 3 incoming attacks.
*Dark Arts effects: duration extended to 20s, the 3 attack limit is removed.
I don't think much will happen in improving mitigation unless the current Dark Mind is shoved in the woodchipper. So if it were changed to a Requiescat-esque ability, then Shadow Wall buffed can take its place.
The cooldown reduction component of 3.x Blood Weapon & AST Spear cards I always thought was an interesting component, though I know it wasn't entirely desired (at least for AST). I would like to see them brought back though, if perhaps just stronger than old Blood Weapon's % cooldown reduction (was too low). IDR what Spear cards were, 15%? 30% might be too high, but I just don't remember what they were in 3.x, and what ever they were was not high enough.
I would like that cooldown reduction buff for DRK because it's not just free potency buff either, with cooldowns reduced, there's more stress and pressure for DRK to manage their MP correctly. That I think would be a fun and appropriate skill ceiling.
Decries the DPS loss of WAR using IB, suggest DRK use TBN forQuote:
Originally Posted by Accelerating
Auto Attacksauto attack, huh? I agree Defiance has problems, but that's less IB's problem and more Fell Cleave carrying too much water. When DRK is behind the other tanks in DPS, it's that much more pressure to not overexert defensive skills at the cost DPS. Something SE learned from 3.x PLD, And unlike PLD/WAR, when DRK 'turtles up,' they get next to nothing for it. -
08-12-2017, 11:51 PMAcceleratingWrong, TBN is probably the best safety net any tank has: Low cooldown, strong effect and costs next to no dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark
Unsurprisingly, DRK has been really good for progression because of TBN.
Wrong. When a WAR 'turtles up' with IB they lose a ton of dps. A DRK loses next to nothing and might even gain some dps if used correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan
Also using TBN on AA can easily result in a raid dps gain if the healers can spend more time casting offensive spells. -
08-13-2017, 08:49 AMVenKitsuneStrong effect? its only a 20% shield on self which is a 10k shield at best with current gear, meanwhile IB is 20% damage MITIGATION for like 8 seconds or something which will mitigate significantly more damage during its duration while also coupling as an attack, and clemency heals for overall more and not to mention actually scales with Convalescence and tencacity (healing dealt aspect). it can be used for raid wide support with Divine Veil. Also it really depends on the fight whether TBN is a small gain or a small loss tbh, on some fights it might not be worth it as a pure dps gain but still be a raid gain, and on some fights it will be both, due to how MP management stretches out over a whole fight, so basically uptime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelerating
eh? stance changes on WAR is FREE and IB ignores the damage penalty from Defiance, at most you'll gain a LOT more suriviability in exchange for 2000 (pulling numbers out of thin air) damage down the drain? that's not a big DPS decrease considering you get so much survivability for it. Meanwhile DRK Grit is on the GCD, costs a lot of MP and locks you away from BW. Having to switch to Grit (if unprepared) is EXTREMELY punishing so i really dont see what you're talking about when you say "looses nothing"Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelerating
Dont you mean 4th? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Xenosan
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08-13-2017, 08:51 AMMauvaisOeilIB's duration is 5sec.Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
It will only outweight TBN if you take more than 100% of your max HP during theses 5 seconds.
What is godly, is IB + other cooldowns, since war has quite many. -
08-13-2017, 09:13 AMVenKitsuneAh thank you for the Clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil
You reminded me of one thing i forgot to mention in my previous post though; Using any other cooldown with TBN will reduce its chances of breaking depending on which content you're doing, and even AST/SCH shields will exasperate the issue. This is honestly bad job design if one skill on the same job clashes with itself, WAR/PLD has no such issues. -
08-13-2017, 09:16 AMTouchandFeel
IB's duration is not 5 seconds or 8 seconds, it is 6 seconds.
You can look it up on the official job guide page.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/warrior/ -
08-13-2017, 10:55 AMXenosanWas referring to the defensive productivity of IB and WAR, which wrecks over what DRK can do in emergency. WAR has polar extreme margins of defensive and offensive that they can sit upon or float between. And in meta this has been to WAR's favor,Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelerating
because you only bring as much mitigation as you need, and WAR can stay on the DPS polar-end of gauge use, and be picky in their choice of which mitigation tools are used when. I'm not a fan of Inner Beast being one of the last mitigation tools WAR chooses, but it's still there in case of emergency. And IB combined with the rest of their better and deeper defense kit makes them THE iron wall if they choose.
We don't do this though, not because of just the DPS loss, more-so because we just don't have to. Healers can handle things just fine and still DPS if they are putting forth any effort.
It's only when someone fucks up a mechanic, or a healer dies to a mechanic, or something similar goes wrong. And that is when having IB in your pocket makes a difference. Same for PLD's utility. DRK I don't think so much.
By a 3rd blood ability I was referring to a third ability akin to Blood Price and Blood Weapon, not blackblood gauge. I see that would be confusing, but essentially like Requiescat for PLD, who shift between Req >> FoF for ideally 100% uptime. So too for DRK Price/Weapon >> Mind for 100% uptime.Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
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08-13-2017, 05:27 PMAccelerating??????????????????Quote:
Originally Posted by VenKitsune
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08-13-2017, 06:08 PMSyzzleSparkYou disregarded the reasoning of my post completely so if there was any in yours, consider it disregarded in return. TBN is not a safety net, its a cooldown that we have to use a lot in order to tread water, particularly if tanking out of stance. Saying it is a safety net is like saying Sheltron or Thrill of Battle is a safety net. Inner Beast and Clemency are extra safety nets because, if you removed them, PLD and WAR would still be on par with DRK in terms of personal mitigation. I also have to admire the temerity in claiming that anything that has a chance to fail completely in being efficient from a resource standpoint is a safety net.Quote:
Originally Posted by Accelerating
Also DRK was not taken in progression for this reason, it was taken due to its rotation being much less punishing than WAR's was, at the time, and due to the fact that magic TBs are once again all over savage fights. It had nothing to do with TBN at all. Not to mention at the time, TBN's net worth on your co-tank was less than half of an autoattack.