Mentor Players Kicking newer players from Duty Ques for low DPS

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Well did this mentor do what they suppose to do and try to teach or coach the person how to be better? Looks like from OP post is the mentor thought their dps was too low and instead of doing what they suppose to do and guide someone how to be better they just kicked them without even saying anything.

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Nope sorry but that person is not a novice at this point. A mentor is there to teach novices how to play the game pre HW. After this point it is up to the player to actually start learning for themselves. Prior to this mentors should point them in the direction of guides for dungeons and their class. They should also help them out with dungeons including explaining the mechanics and answer any questions best they can or at the very least point them in the right direction.

Now as for returning players mentors should help them find their feet again. Now come expansion things will change a little as I expect novice status to be expanded to include HW. As i think they will do this with the addition of the jump potions.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

...wiped on first boss...

...I then continued to explain the mechanics for that boss and all others during the run.

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Key points here. You were patient enough to give everyone a chance to show how they do on boss fights (which did lead to wipes this time), and you gave game play advice. Those combined with good manners are all that's required of a mentor. If you had kicked someone before the first boss for low dps without giving game play advice, then I would consider you the mentor described by the OP.

The difference is that was the Vault. It's understandable someone will be undergeared or still learning their job. They're still leveling. The TC was in Sohr Khai wearing i150 fending accessories with purportedly noticeably bad DPS.

Seriously. You need to check yourself. Nobody, mentor or not, should be expected to tell someone in Sohr Khai that they should not be wearing fending accessories as a DPS job. This is like expecting your algebra teacher to teach someone how to count to 10.

If this topic was about the mentor refusing to teach a new player Sohr Khai's boss mechanics or other small details, then yes, it'd be a different conversation. Like any reasonable person has pointed out in this topic, what exactly are you supposed to think when you see someone in TC's gear and the DPS is allegedly horrible?

If this was Sastasha, Copperbell, Brayflox, or another low-level dungeon, then yea, maybe a new player doesn't yet understand what main-stat is. Maybe they don't know how to DPS well yet. I'd expect a mentor to teach the newbie a few things in that context. When we're talking about stuff that shows up in your 60 roulette, a mentor shouldn't need to teach you things that you'd normally learn when you are level 15.

I went back again and read the OP's first post, then thought about it a bit with what everyone's said.

From what I'm reading in the OP's original post, no effort was made by anyone in two parties to teach mechanics and from what I've read, no one look at the OP's gear until people went looking at the Lodestone profile after the kick and first post. Although mentors shouldn't have to explain "Hey, you have a fending accessory on", it happens. We're all human and make mistakes.

One thing I'd also like to point out with gear is that the Recommended Gear button sometimes can be a pain. I've had it recommend accessories that are for my crafting & gathering classes, rather than battle or magic. Personally, I don't care why the fending accessory is there. It looks like it was just a mistake that was made, unless it's just to raise iLv. to get in, which I find to be lazy with how easy it is to get tomes. But we can't assume.

OP has also gone on record as saying that she watches videos also so that she can try to understand the mechanics, so she is not going in blind. When I first cleared Sohr Khai, I went in blind, but was with an FC member and a couple of friends who knew the fights. I messed up on a lot of stuff, my DPS was terrible, and I failed miserably at mechanics. It's been some time since I've cleared and I still sometimes wipe with people who are clearing it.

Gear aside, whether it's Sastasha or Sohr Khai, I still think that a mentor shouldn't be worrying about DPS and how fast things are dying for someone who's new to the instance unless there's an enrage that a party has to worry about, which I can't recall the last time I saw one of those in a dungeon like Sohr Khai.

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Originally Posted by Alex_LoneWolf

One thing I'd also like to point out with gear is that the Recommended Gear button sometimes can be a pain. I've had it recommend accessories that are for my crafting & gathering classes, rather than battle or magic. Personally, I don't care why the fending accessory is there. It looks like it was just a mistake that was made, unless it's just to raise iLv. to get in, which I find to be lazy with how easy it is to get tomes. But we can't assume.

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Yeah, Recommended Gear currently wants me to equip my level 41 dark knight with a Silver Ring of Crafting because I melded it with a vitality materia I at some point for whatever reason, over the level 25 Serpent Private's Ring it's currently wearing, which may be a DPS ring, but in low level dungeons I can't imagine it matters.

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Originally Posted by Alex_LoneWolf

Gear aside, whether it's Sastasha or Sohr Khai, I still think that a mentor shouldn't be worrying about DPS and how fast things are dying for someone who's new to the instance unless there's an enrage that a party has to worry about, which I can't recall the last time I saw one of those in a dungeon like Sohr Khai.

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Poqhiraj has a soft enrage depending on how good your healer is. Hraesvelgr has a hard enrage since you'll eventually run out of platforms to stand on, and there's no surviving that. Final Steps of Faith is right after, which has a much stricter hard enrage.

If the OP's DPS was low enough for others to notice and get them removed from two different, unrelated groups it's unlikely they would have killed Hraesvelgr and they most certainly wouldn't have made it past Nidhogg. At least not without their group having to carry them like Atlas.

First things first, sorry, only read til Page 11.

Now my reply:

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Done more to prepare for it? Do you mean you want them running instances below their current ilvl that give barely any Lore for days on end so that they can overgear a duty so that YOU can get through it 5 minutes faster?

The process in XIV is bloody simple.

You get the minimum ilvl for a duty.
You run that duty over and over until you have the gear from it and enough currency to get better gear.
Once you have the minimum ilvl for the next duty, you move to that and repeat the process.

The OP Met the minimum ilvl. Attempted to run the duty and was kicked.
How in the hell do you expect this player to get better gear if they are literally being blocked from doing the content that will allow them to get better gear?

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My Avg.iLvl is 223 on my NIN and 230 on my SCH. My latest Duty Finder dungeon is The Aetherochemical Research Facility and latest trial is The Singularity Reactor. I have not done anything past that, no Sohr Khai or whatever. How did I gear up?
Please, people who don't want to try will always have excuses. People who wants to rise to the challenge/rise up/whatever will always try harder.
It's the mindset. There is no 'impossible' if you have the will.

On that note, I'll answer my own question of "How did I gear up?"
I took the Foundation daily hunts for Centurio seals and used those said seals for gears. I crafted my own i220. I also geared up with PvP garo gears later on (though i'm unlikely to use this for 3.x PvE content)

Oh yeah, to repeat myself, my latest content done is still only the 3.0 main story end dungeon, nothing past 3.0++ patches, I did do Diadem a little but I did not use anything i obtained from there. I did do Palace of the Dead but only till floor 30, not enough to get the i235 and/or i255 weapons. I also did my anima but it's only up to the third phase right now.

So, if I can gear up to avg ilvl 230 without getting any further than Aetherochemical Research Facility NM, why is it so hard for other people to do so?

(Edit: Oh, and I also did Alexander - The Fist of the Father, but really, that was only once, which was also after I geared up with those Centurio Seals, and I didn't claim any loot from it)

Probably already stated but if you are new you absolutely should not be running the newest dungeons in gear the ilvl you have access to immediately. Your first task once you clear the MSQ is to take a second job to 60, this helps you build wealth and currency, also gets you dungeon experience you missed out on running msq. Se has given you a wonderful and horrible tool for this in the form of Deep Dungeon aka Palace of the dead. Use it but don't rely on it, take the time to play around. It will also help you get an appropriate weapon for both jobs, Padjali then upgrade to Kinna, use Palace and pvp to build your currency, Both Lore and Scripture will help and Garo event makes pvp attractive right now so use abuse and slay your way to glory. At 235+ ilvl try those high dungeons again and always always ignore the mentors they are terrible people anyway.

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Originally Posted by TThibi

Probably already stated but if you are new you absolutely should not be running the newest dungeons in gear the ilvl you have access to immediately. Your first task once you clear the MSQ is to take a second job to 60...

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The only issue with this is that Sohr Khai is part of the Main Story Quest line, so technically it's part of it.

However, I can agree with using alternative methods as you mentioned in order to get tomes.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Poqhiraj has a soft enrage depending on how good your healer is. Hraesvelgr has a hard enrage since you'll eventually run out of platforms to stand on, and there's no surviving that. Final Steps of Faith is right after, which has a much stricter hard enrage.

If the OP's DPS was low enough for others to notice and get them removed from two different, unrelated groups it's unlikely they would have killed Hraesvelgr and they most certainly wouldn't have made it past Nidhogg. At least not without their group having to carry them like Atlas.

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The issue here is that the OP got to none of the bosses. If the OP had said they'd gotten to the mog chieftan, then I could possibly understand, but mob trash really isn't the best when it comes to learning how much damage someone can output. OP also mentioned that the group was unhappy that they couldn't do big pulls, so I'm not really thinking that OP was given a chance. One thing we have to all remember is how these dungeons were for some people when they were just released; they weren't a cake walk for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Alex_LoneWolf

The issue here is that the OP got to none of the bosses. If the OP had said they'd gotten to the mog chieftan, then I could possibly understand, but mob trash really isn't the best when it comes to learning how much damage someone can output. OP also mentioned that the group was unhappy that they couldn't do big pulls, so I'm not really thinking that OP was given a chance. One thing we have to all remember is how these dungeons were for some people when they were just released; they weren't a cake walk for everyone.

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They were a cake walk for anyone willing to actually try. Even in standard entry gear. I ran my alt classes through there at bare minimum to get the gear drops.

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Originally Posted by Alex_LoneWolf

The issue here is that the OP got to none of the bosses. If the OP had said they'd gotten to the mog chieftan, then I could possibly understand, but mob trash really isn't the best when it comes to learning how much damage someone can output. OP also mentioned that the group was unhappy that they couldn't do big pulls, so I'm not really thinking that OP was given a chance. One thing we have to all remember is how these dungeons were for some people when they were just released; they weren't a cake walk for everyone.

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they were a cakewalk for anyone willing to press more than 4 buttons or read a guide on how to play their class.

Well most of the 3.x 60 dungeons were really easy even when they were new and the only hard thing in Sohr Khai might be the mechanics with the moogles and maybe the horse. We also dont really know how good or bad the OP was but if two different groups kicked them for low DPS than either they got really bad luck or maybe they are truly not that good. Even without a parser you can see really quick if the dps is good or not, especially if you are the other DD in the group and know that you are kinda not that bad.

Just a little story from yesterday (it is a little of topic):

I was running Baelsars Wall and before that one run I never truly had problems with the dungeon. The first time we run this on patch day we did not wipe once..yet in that one run, the tank and the melee DD nearly died in trash pulls because the healer was just bad. White mage was their first class to 60 and it seems they also did not have swiftcast as a cross skill. Yet at the same time they had a complete ilvl250 HQ crafted gear. (Not sure how they got that..without any crafter up..they must have had some nice friends) So the bad healing was not thanks to gear, it was just because they were bad. We somehow were able to get to the endboss with a lot of close calls..yet I never said anything to the healer even though it was just bad. (We did not do big pulls and yet people were barely alive) Through the whole run I was kinda afraid that we wont be able to finish the end boss..

And it happened exactly how I feared. We, the DDs managed to kill the sword and chain just right so we had enough DPS. Yet the healer let the tank die after the tankbuster because somehow they took their time to heal. After one unavoidable aoe the tank was down, I rezzed her and yet it was too late since the healer could not keep the rest of us alive..We went back and I am not sure if it was already there or after the next wipe but I finally wrote that they need to get better at healing (was trying to be as nice as possible). She probably did not understand me because she was French but thankfully the tank was French too and wrote it down in French for her. After the third wipe thanks to her bad healing the other DD left the dungeon and we got another one for them. The healer seems to understand that she might not be ready yet and also left on their own after talking to the tank. We get another one and after another wipe we cleared it without any more problems.

What do I want to say with that one big text? Well when the other healer asked us what the problem was and I wrote "bad heals" the tank answered with a "she was new". All that I could answer was that someone is not new if they are 60 and in the current dungeon..I wanted to post this story here because it really shows that some people either level way to fast and get carriered through content..thus they still dont even know their job at 60. And that some still try to play the "I am new" Card at lvl 60. Also one could already see that their skills would not be enough to finish the dungeon.

The problem is the player base in general. Most all of us start out with good intentions of helping but are met with resistance from either the player we are trying to help or the other people in the party. (I once had a healer leave a dungeon because i was helping a blm with basic rotation advice) also their friends or whatever defending their poor play or incorrect gear. So we tend to get a little jaded and short with people. Why try to be as nice as possible when it's usually met with attitude. Also if you run into a lot of players that are "new" in lvl 60 dungeons you just get tired of it. So now it's either don't try and help, which only leads to a further degradation of player skill, or give them little or no leway to improve on our time (the other 3 7 or 23 people in the party not just the one person who speaks up)

Basically "new" players need a bit thicker skin
stop defending yourself
stop defending others
we'll try not to be rude
and when we get a good run of people being receptive to our help we'll be a lot more patient with you because we know it will actually be a positive outcome

Both the posts that mention that it was a cakewalk have to remember that some people don't find it that easy. They're not you.

Again, I reiterate that it is not easy for everyone. Some people, yes. Others, no.

I remembered numerous times that I've felt like it took me forever to get to the mog chieftan. But I haven't complained every about low DPS.

Or maybe its not the OP's fault, but the game's system for combat itself thats the issue? The fact is that new players who are just getting into the game and who are clueless and just trying to enjoy the story, the game itself does a POOR example of explaining abilities in combat because content during 2.0 is braindead easy. I can just close my eyes and spam 2 buttons and do fine. Even Job quests don't even give you the option to learn your new skills because they give them to you AFTER your quest not during to help you figure out how to use it. It also doesn't take advantage of the solo job quests mini dungeon instance to help new players train in a mock enviroment so they know what to do for actual real dungeons and what to work on. And dont try to pin that he needed blood for blood in the damn game. Did he know? Did the game tell him? if he's new and just trying to enjoy the damn game experience he would NEVER know especially if hes not in a fc or with a friend

I know I'm only lvl 48 but I can honestly say I have never got in an argument, got kicked, or kicked someone. People should be able to play the way they want to play. I just don't get why someone would complain in roulette. You know your gonna get matched with people of all gear lvl and all skill lvl's. if you want to speed run shouldn't you do the dungeons in your own group. I've had some long dungeon runs but never have I ever got mad at someone for being new or not doing there job to there full potential. I just don't get how people do roulette and get upset cause the dungeon is taking to long or someone is not the best at there job. I personally look up guides for my character always trying to improve but there are people that just play to have fun. They probably don't look up guides or good rotations and are sub par. They should be able to have fun just like everyone else. Maybe I'm just laid back and go with the flow but that's my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Juicinators

I know I'm only lvl 48
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Bit off topic, but it's something I've been trying to do when I notice the opportunity.

You're coming up on two rather divisive dungeons, Castrum Meridanum and The Praetorium.
I Highly suggest forming a premade party that will allow you to both watch the scenes and participate.


Many people have had the experience ruined for them due to just queuing up in the duty finder.

Thanks. I don't care about story though so I just skip all cut scenes. But I do have some friends that play and are 60 so I hope they will help me get through all the lvl 50 dungeons. If I have to I will duty finder but I hope I don't have to. Thanks again for the heads up.

Kicking a player for "low dps" in an area where there are no "DPS checks" (or rather dps checks are in fact being met) ...

(which a lack of regular content having dps checks, and endgame having tight dps checks, is the leading cause of why people cant clear endgame content. I.E. a serious design flaw...)

... is 100% unjustifiable.






Now, if you were arguing with the party members (which you say you were not) then even more so unjustifiable.

When I first returned from a break a month or more after Heavensward was released, I also was kicked twice, except I was given no reason. In fact, I have cleared many endgame fights prior to echo being introduced, and most shortly after they were released (within 1-2 weeks) as multiple different jobs. So to say its because of "low dps" is nonsense.

If you cant be bothered to give a dungeon an extra 10-20 more minutes because someone is new and trying to gear up their job, you shouldnt be bothered to queue up through duty finder. Make a pre-made if you're that absolutely "in a rush."

Also, you dont need to "look up guides" when the guides mentioned are all derived from simply reading the skills descriptions and deciding which actions go where in a string of combos. This is extremely simple to determine. Time is the only thing that makes you more efficient at deciding which actions to place where under certain circumstances, as any "guide" is only going to show one string, that does not fit for all scenarios, thus are a waste of time.

Lastly, if youre that impatient, you shouldnt be a mentor. If you cant take the time to wait, and teach, new players are going to flat out quit, and this type of attitude drives off veteran players (including myself) to also quit, because I will absolutely not be bothered to deal with that kind of attitude.

People who support vote kicking, and justify bad mouthing people who are still learning, or simply doing things in different ways, even if they are more successful, but dont equate to the highest damage, clearly have forgotten you once were undergeared, and learning your job.






You accomplish nothing by bad mouthing players or vote kicking them, except halting their advancement in gear acquisition, learning their job, and often times, encouraging them to flat out quit.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

You accomplish nothing by bad mouthing players or vote kicking them, except halting their advancement in gear acquisition, learning their job, and often times, encouraging them to flat out quit.

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And that mentality is part of the problem. Why shouldn't we vote kick players who refuse to put in the effort? We're not expecting players to pull the top percentile damage. Nobody expects that. But why should it EVER be okay for one person to hold a group hostage by playing so subpar you add "20 extra minutes" to a dungeon that only takes 20 minutes in the first place? We're not talking Tam-Tara here. We're talking level 60 content, when people should know their crap by 50. It was the previous max level, and you frankly SHOULD be expected to care by then. To get through all that content, and still be terrible? You're not even trying, and you fully deserve every kick you receive.

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Originally Posted by Isala

You're not even trying, and you fully deserve every kick you receive.

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Someone who joined the game in 2014 *should* have more experience with 1-50 actions/leveling methods/gil acquisition/yada yada.

Someone who joined 1-2 months ago, is only going to have experience with 1-60 story content, and some dungeons/trials along the way, with which they partied with people most likely at *cap* item level, not *minimum* item level.

but

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Originally Posted by Isala

not even trying.

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Originally Posted by Isala

terrible.

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and

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Originally Posted by Isala

deserve every kick.

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Absurd.

The only reason the dungeon takes 20 minutes in the first place, is because it was introduced when most people were at item level 250-260 or even 270, but the dungeon itself is granting 245 gear... meaning its actual design is meant for a lower item level than 245.

What's an extra 10 or 20 minutes in an MMO. People play for thousands of hours.

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Originally Posted by Pure3ify

my gear lvl is 202 so of course I am a newer player.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

you really need to get your lancer up to 34. Blood for Blood for the DPS, but more importantly, you lack invigorate. .

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And since i'm here, Pur3ify I will give you advice instead of just "tell" you what youre doing wrong.


There is a leve in camp Tranquil called "Adamantoise Tears" that can be completed in 15 seconds, and you can put it at maximum difficulty and complete it no matter what gear you have for lancer. Just need the action "sprint."

Pick up the eggs is the only requirement.

(there are many leve's similar to this type of leve, which is the "fastest" way to gain levels at really low levels. Just need to figure out which ones only require you to pick something up, and repeat it. Sometimes, you will have that leve quest "disappear" and then you just do 1-2 "other" ones, and it will "reappear.")



This way you can get Lancer up, so people cant give the excuse you dont have your sub class actions.





But, that is "powerleveling" and they might bad mouth you for doing that...

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Absurd.

The only reason the dungeon takes 20 minutes in the first place, is because it was introduced when most people were at item level 250-260 or even 270, but the dungeon itself is granting 245 gear... meaning its actual design is meant for a lower item level than 245.

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You and I obviously have a different metric for terrible. I'm talking players doing sub-500 DPS level bad. As you can literally do that spamming Blizzard, and ONLY Blizzard as a BLM, or nothing but Heavy Shot as a BRD, and this is back when I tested it during the i230 gearings, BTW... You literally are NOT TRYING. I'm talking players who sit there and stare at monsters, instead of doing anything. Because that's the only way to add an additional 20 minutes, because even hitting one button over, and over and over again, will still add enough DPS to push the dungeon along. And yes, those players do deserve every Votekick. I'm not playing this game so they can come into a dungeon, watch Netflix, and hit a button every 30 seconds.

And for the record, for sheer understanding of where I'm coming from to judge such players. A completely naked BRD, wearing only a 230 weapon, can push 550 DPS, if they know their rotation. If you're going to tell me that it's "unreasonable" to expect people to out DPS a naked character? There's a problem.

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Originally Posted by Isala

You and I obviously have a different metric for terrible.

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I would put that under "arguing."

I am with you all the way up until you say you would kick them.


If you try to talk to them, and they don't respond, or appear AFK, I think that falls under correct Square-Enix guidelines for vote kicking.

But someone who is trying or appearing to try, to me, isn't justifiably kicked.

Honestly in my opinion, the only way you can know how much each class does under each circumstance is if you are parsing, and just because Square-Enix turns a blind eye, and the community accepts this kind of gameplay, does not mean it's not breaking the terms of service, as well as cheating. (Talk to the PvP players about this.)

So, if you aren't going to play the intended way, how can you expect someone else.


It's a bit of hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

So, if you aren't going to play the intended way, how can you expect someone else.


It's a bit of hypocrisy.

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Don't even have to parse to know someone isn't pulling their weight. That BLM who doesn't use Enochian? That DRG who never uses Blood of the Dragon? The BRD who doesn't set up DoTs? Even watching what their cast bars tell you is a real fast sign when someone is halfway AFK. It's not hard when you actually play a class to know when someone is just phoning it in.

And bluntly, I have never said I kick players who try. Nowhere in there did I imply that it's players who try that get the boot. It's the ones who I can tell are literally just there to /follow and do no actual effort that I remove.

Reading here and there, I feel like the entitlement ran so high that some community now demands everyone playing top notch even when on DF.

Sadly, after some year have passed, I see the problem worsen by the day. All those upset because being matched with "bad" players I think are losing what they are doing: playing a game. They were so focused on their "mission" that they lost where they are and thinking the game is all about maxing efficency, dps, and top raiding. It is not. It is only how you choose to play it. DF is a means to help all players go ahead and learn at their peace, or don't learn at all, because maybe they are playing a game just to kill some time, and have no interest on being the top raider of the world.

When you are a top player, on DF you are being matched with the rest of the world. That is nothing to be upset to, it is the DF's mission. Or else the new or sub-par player will be more and more emarginated by the growing number of expert players that won't want play with them and making a community apart. So much apart that now claiming their own "rights" to the point to kick out people from DF for not being in their league.

And now (trying to go back to the topic) we see players clearly abusing of the Mentor feature, that I need to remind, it is not only a crown on your head, but also good perks with it, and those people wants get all benefits of perks but not giving in exchange what they agreed to, when applying for mentor: help players.

Yes, you Mentor will find lazy people, entitled noobs, every kind of bestiary you can get on DF, but it is what you have to expect, and you have to deal with. Nicely.

To make some IRL equivalent of Mentoring, if you get hired on a customer support and then turning away all customers you don't like, your job won't last a day.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

To make some IRL equivalent of Mentoring, if you get hired on a customer support and then turning away all customers you don't like, your job won't last a day.

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To make another IRL equivalent of Mentoring, it's like being in IT, trying desperately to get someone to understand the basics of using the mouse to right click, and them getting angry at you because that's not how they want to use their mouse. And then complaining that you didn't help them when you finally give up on them.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Reading here and there, I feel like the entitlement ran so high that some community now demands everyone playing top notch even when on DF.

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No one is expecting topnotch skill. We just expect you to make an effort. Those aren't anywhere near asking for the same thing. The only entitlement is from the people who think that just by making it into the queue means they should be able to do whatever they want without repercussion, even if it means dragging down the other 3/7/23 players in whatever group was unfortunate enough to receive them.

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Sadly, after some year have passed, I see the problem worsen by the day. All those upset because being matched with "bad" players I think are losing what they are doing: playing a game. They were so focused on their "mission" that they lost where they are and thinking the game is all about maxing efficency, dps, and top raiding. It is not. It is only how you choose to play it. DF is a means to help all players go ahead and learn at their peace, or don't learn at all, because maybe they are playing a game just to kill some time, and have no interest on being the top raider of the world.

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Once again, there is a very big difference between being a "top raider" and just putting in real effort. The time for teaching someone more than a fight's mechanics also ends after a certain period. The OP being level 60 in Sohr Khai, for example, is long past the point where they should know what gear BRDs wear and should have had a solid grasp on their rotation ages ago.

And we get "upset" because the game is no longer fun when you're paired with a dead-weight that obviously doesn't care enough to try. Especially when that results in extra long duties or duties that can't be cleared at all because they can't or wont play the game on a most basic level.

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When you are a top player, on DF you are being matched with the rest of the world. That is nothing to be upset to, it is the DF's mission. Or else the new or sub-par player will be more and more emarginated by the growing number of expert players that won't want play with them and making a community apart. So much apart that now claiming their own "rights" to the point to kick out people from DF for not being in their league.

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Good. Someone who refuses to try doesn't deserve to play with everyone else. It would be nice if everyone I met was always "in my league", but I know better than to ever expect that in DF. I will expect that you know the basics of your class and know how to gear it once you reach a certain point though.

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And now (trying to go back to the topic) we see players clearly abusing of the Mentor feature, that I need to remind, it is not only a crown on your head, but also good perks with it, and those people wants get all benefits of perks but not giving in exchange what they agreed to, when applying for mentor: help players.

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Don't put this all on Mentors and veterans.

1) Too many players don't want to be helped, no matter how you offer.
2) After a point, there are certain types of help you shouldn't have to give if the person on the other end actually cared enough to help themselves. Why should the rest of us waste effort on helping someone who doesn't want to help themselves?

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Yes, you Mentor will find lazy people, entitled noobs, every kind of bestiary you can get on DF, but it is what you have to expect, and you have to deal with. Nicely.

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Telling them why they're being removed and then removing them is dealing with the situation nicely. Mentors and vets aren't obligated to bring the entire run to a halt to teach someone their class or to carry what's clearly a lost cause.

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To make some IRL equivalent of Mentoring, if you get hired on a customer support and then turning away all customers you don't like, your job won't last a day.

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Other players in your DF would be coworkers, not customers. And employees that are blatantly dragging down the company are summarily replaced since any company okay with crushing mediocrity never lasts long.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Kicking a player for "low dps" in an area where there are no "DPS checks" (or rather dps checks are in fact being met) ...

... is 100% unjustifiable.

You accomplish nothing by bad mouthing players or vote kicking them, except halting their advancement in gear acquisition, learning their job, and often times, encouraging them to flat out quit.

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You know in dungeons without any DPS check at all I will not kick anyone..at least if they attacking..if someone is just standing around and doing nothing at all they will be kicked as fast as possible. But the dungeon the OP was in is Sohr Khai. This dungeon has DPS checks on two bosses. A very good healer might be able to heal the group through the horse without any walls left (and believe me I had those situations too and it was not really a nice fight). At the end boss if you have bad DPS you will lose all platforms and die.

We do not know how bad/good the OP was. Nobody does which means that we only can guess. Maybe it was completely mean to kick them but maybe they were just so bad that people saw that they wont manage to beat the bosses? On top of that they did not have cross class skills which you can see if you take a look into the profile and see if they have leveled the class or not and they also wore the wrong gear which you can also see if you inspect the people. Maybe the trash pulls were dieing so slowly that the mentor noticed that the dps is low. The OP wrote it like this was said to no one specific so the mentor seemed to either not know who was the one doing less or was only noticing that something was wrong (which you can do really fast without any parser if you did the dungeons often enough). The OP spoke that it might be them because they are new and low geared (maybe nothing would have happened if they did not say that?) and after that they got a kick.

First: He/She does not even know if its the mentor that started the kick. Just because they were the one that wrote it first does not mean its them. Maybe another checked their gear after the mentor said it and started the kick?
Second: There has to be at least another person in there that clicked yes, so at least for another person it was way to low. Since you can only queue for mentor roulette solo it could not have been a friend.
Third: The exact same thing happens again after that with other people..isnt that a bit strange? Doesnt that hint that maybe its really the OPs fault?

In the end I barely kick people and they really need to be either afk or we wont be able to finish the dungeon with them, for me to kick them. (I am not talking about taking 20 minutes more..I am meaning not finishing at all) I am quite sure that the time of three people is more valuable in that situation than the one that got kicked. Especially in a lvl 60 dungeon..nobody that is there can really say that they are new. And if its clear that they are just not ready for it than I see no problem with kicking them. The dungeons/trials after that will be even harder..especially after Sohr Khai and carrying them through one dungeon means that there will be a high chance that they are carried through the others as well. Getting kicked might not be the nicest feeling in the world (but also not the end of it) but maybe this will give some the motivation to look at themselves and maybe get better.

And just to be clear..since some people seems to thing that we want people playing on raid tier level..this is not the case and I am not sure how some read it that way. There is still quite the nice middle ground between raid tier DPS and not passing DPS checks.

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Originally Posted by Juicinators

I know I'm only lvl 48 but I can honestly say I have never got in an argument, got kicked, or kicked someone. People should be able to play the way they want to play. I just don't get why someone would complain in roulette. You know your gonna get matched with people of all gear lvl and all skill lvl's. if you want to speed run shouldn't you do the dungeons in your own group.

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Well you are still in the leveling process which often means that people are way more forgiving for mistakes or bad numbers. The problem is that saying that everyone should play how they want means that you will than be okay with people only hitting auto-attack..or those bad ice mages BLM. If you have such DDs in your group some dungeons turns from taking longer to not able to finish them at all. And nobody wants to waste 90 minutes of their life for nothing. [Or having healers that only use one spell for healing as the healer in the vault. :eek:]

And yes as soon as you go into duty finder you will meet different kinds of people and play styles but this goes for both sides. If you want to speedrun and you land in a group were three other people want to take their time..well you either take your time or you can go. Because in the duty finder you will have to do it the way how the majority of your group wants it. But that also means that if you land in a group that wants to speedrun it and you cant keep up or just dont feel like it..well either follow the majority or you might have to leave. (The GMs did say that a difference in playstyle is a reason to kick someone, even if some might abuse it)

Also the argument about going with friends can always be said to the other side too. ;) If you dont want to speedrun, do big pull or other things that probably the majority of the duty finder groups wants, well one can always run with friends. I for example would not go into duty finder as a tank. I am really bad at this and I am also far away from being comfortable with it. I would never go in a dungeon with strangers because I dont want to waste their time.

What I want to say with my big wall of text: People should try to consider both sides. New people should maybe ask themselves if they are truly ready for the next dungeon/trial be it skill/equipment and veteran players should not try to kick someone for making some mistakes. And always try to be nice and explain your reason.

But also really important imo: If you are at lvl60 and in HW story content please stop using the "I am new"card to explain your mistakes. If you are new to the dungeon and did not know the mechanics than normally people will not hate you for it. (Most people, I would say, will only get annoyed if you make those mistakes again and again, like learning nothing from them) But if you are at lvl60 and just simply bad at your job dont try to defend yourself with "this is my first class". Everyone that is at that level has quite some hours behind them and if you only have one class at 60, that also means that you should be used to it at least a bit at that max level. Try to look at yourself, ask yourself if this is truly good enough and maybe train to get better. This makes things way easier for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Third: The exact same thing happens again after that with other people..isnt that a bit strange? Doesnt that hint that maybe its really the OPs fault?

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It happening twice, to me doesnt automatically make it the "OPs fault" in my mind no.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

When I first returned from a break a month or more after Heavensward was released, I also was kicked twice, except I was given no reason. In fact, I have cleared many endgame fights prior to echo being introduced, and most shortly after they were released (within 1-2 weeks) as multiple different jobs. So to say its because of "low dps" is nonsense. "So to say its the OPs fault" is nonsense.

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Which leads into my next point:

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

No one is expecting topnotch skill. We just expect you to make an effort.

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I say this not to gloat, but to possibly ensure the reader, that I do have experience playing the game:

All of my /playtime is actual playtime, not "afk" in endgame areas/Limsa, and I clock in at 9,400 hours.

From my experience, people *do* in fact kick people who are trying all the time...

And if they don't kick them, they will bad mouth them the entire time, or at the end of the dungeon.

There is a reason "git gud" is "popular." Its interesting that people are here pretending that, the phrase here isnt a thing. I mean literally the person who I am conversing with the most has it as his signature.

Its literally the main reason I have regularly *not* been subscribed to the game. It's not entertaining to constantly have to find ways to avoid this type of player base.

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Originally Posted by Isala

To make another IRL equivalent of Mentoring, it's like being in IT,

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Actually a real life, actual relevant example, would be trying to teach your girlfriend/boyfriend how to play Mortal Kombat, and they are sitting there eating skittles, and you snatch their controller out of their hand..

"because they arent even trying."

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

players I think are losing what they are doing: playing a game.

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Words right out of my mouth.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Reading here and there, I feel like the entitlement ran so high that some community now demands everyone playing top notch even when on DF.

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Let's not forget the entitlement of those players who don't try/ don't care and expect everyone to carry them.

Honestly they should never have put the mount in as a reward. It only attracts these type of people and this type of behavior. Mentoring should be a labour of love and nothing more. I'm sorry you had a bad experience.

It's possible to have the Mentor crown inside a dungeon and not be running mentor roulette btw.

There's a different between someone hitting auto attack and someone just not knowing what they are doing. I would say most people that just go in to dungeons and hit random buttons are mainly playing for fun. I am ok with that. All I'm saying is we all can't expect everyone to be on the same lvl in roulette. And I will never get mad or upset if I get a bad group. It also probably helps that I will never know if any other class is playing great cause I only have time to learn one. As long as mobs are dieing and no ones dieing than I really don't care. If we just couldn't finish I would see if the group wanted to disband and re-que. I wouldn't kick someone for it.

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Originally Posted by Isala

To make another IRL equivalent of Mentoring, it's like being in IT, trying desperately to get someone to understand the basics of using the mouse to right click, and them getting angry at you because that's not how they want to use their mouse. And then complaining that you didn't help them when you finally give up on them.

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As someone who's done IT stuff before, I don't think I've ever gotten a person who's mad at me for right clicking with a mouse while teaching them some basic concept. They usually give it a go and I've never actually encountered what you've mentioned.

The same is basically true for when I've taught people mechanics in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Let's not forget the entitlement of those players who don't try/ don't care and expect everyone to carry them.

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Although I will admit to this happening (once got a MRD in Sastasha that wouldn't even hit anything, just jumped around, I vote kicked before last boss), by the sounds of the OP's post, they were trying to do something. They weren't looking for a carry.

Doesnt matter what anyone says or thinks.

This person was 100% in the right to participate in the dungeon. (For the *fact* they met the requirements to enter.)


The dungeon unlocked for them, they met the item level requirement, and clearly, if they took the time to express their negative treatment, and follow up with responses here, they most likely have taken the time to read their job actions.

Whats also apparent, is any group they were in before didnt encourage the player to try to focus on gearing up more before proceeding, and the game itself doesnt notify you of the importance of cross class abilities.

The only time you are justified in kicking another player, is them breaching the terms of service, being "AFK" being offline, or harassing the party members.

"Doing poor dps" is *not* along those lines. (Just auto attacking and moving between mobs is "AFK")







To place any blame on this player is absolutely unjustifiable.


Any notion from other people stating they didnt go "beyond" the clearly labeled requirements to enter the dungeon is player created, and vote kicking them based on player created requirements is a breach in the terms of service.

3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers





If this is in any way, not correct, then Square-Enix themselves are not upholding their outlined terms of service or justifiable reasons for using vote kick. In which case, they should re-define the duty finder system, vote kick system, and or terms of service.

If they didnt have the dps to clear the bosses. Is that not disruption of the other 3 players?