Unofficial Census 2016 for FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

So basically what you are saying is "Who want's things to make you think more? Why don't we just have nothing and never think at all."

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Honestly, after the initial math, you do not think much anymore in either set-up. Similar goes if someone else did the math already and published it, the thing we call "guides". Ariyala got a nice "no-thinking" site people like to visit if I recall correctly - most people didn't bother calculating stat weights themselves. I know I didn't. I only did my rotations myself and I can tell you there's more muscle memory than thinking involved at this point.

In fact, many people don't bother much with gearing/stats at all, which is why some people run around with 800+ accuracy (A gearing trap that already exists in the game). These are the people that are actually most affected by trap stats - people who bother reading up or doing the math will just ignore those stats good as they can. And then somebody comes rushing to the forums telling the playerbase to "git gut" and SE to stop nerfing content because people who didn't bother with such things are underperforming in their +Manareg gear on Monk.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you feel such stats add flavor, be my guest to advocate for them. All that changes for me is that I'm gonna be groaning a little more whenever I visit a gear vendor because I can't get the stats I actually want on my gear.

Dunno if that shrug was meant to imply "well you'd get what you want but you'd come to the forums complaining about poor deepz".... I think I've shown on numerous occasions on this forum (specifically about df) that I am not such a person so your assumption is flat out wrong. But yes people asking for nerfs because of their own inadquacy should be ignored though. You saying people wearing ilvl 60 gear trying to beat Garuda extreme but its "too hard" would have a valid point? They certainly would not.

Yeah people care so little they are constantly looking for ways to impove their gear... I see many people still in their questing gear at lvl 60 because they just don't care about it. I also see tanks stacking piety all the time, it's so common that I have them 90% of the time in DF /sarcasm.

You have a point on that first one though, still doesn't make the items themselves more interesting than "+10 ilvl" all the time.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

I agree that it could do that.

Balance that against starting next week, casual content will be giving 3 weapons at i235-i240 and in some of those cases, as was stated in another post here, the relic becomes hardly worth doing, because of it's high cost of entry.

1) PotD gives an i 235 that can be completed in about 8, maybe 10 hours or so.
2) Void Ark + Wiping City will now give the i240 upgrade, if you count in the time for (10) A8 clears, that takes about 4, maybe 5 hours total.
3) The relic weapon, can requires 24,000 Eso, The Aetherochemical Research Facility awards 150 Eso. 24,000/150 =160 clears. At 20 minutes per clear, that is roughly 53 hours, we'll call it 50-60 with the other items added in. I am not even going to consider the time requirement for starting one from 0. That would be too ridiculous to even consider.

That is balanced???

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You're bringing up something completely different. My issue is with the people asking for "unique" stats without understanding what that does to progression.

As far as acquisition, yes the system is lopsided, though that's largely because of what the devs did to relic acquisition after the initial quest. They had a really good idea in making relic require killing Hard Mode primals, since it was setting the precedent of doing challenging content to progress your relic. Then they decided to implement a million grinds instead of continuing to use stuff like EX primals for relic progression.

The devs also know that comparable/better rewards are what get people to do content, which is why Padjali weapons are i235 instead of 230. By the time PotD was implemented, everyone more than likely had their 230 weapon, so on that end the decision makes sense. Personally, I still haven't set foot in there, and don't plan to in the near future; I have my 230 weapon and that place is not content I specifically asked for, so I have no interest in it.

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I have an i240 relic and I am working on #2 out of boredom, but I agree with what was stated here. Other than wanting it for whatever reason, there really isn't much reason to chase the relic. Especially if you are not a raider, the small increase in DPS does not justify the cost in time.

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Again, I'd rather relics require difficult content instead of grinds. You'd see more people going for them without being bored to tears. I still remember back when ARR launched a group of people in my FC decided to start running HM primals nightly to try to progress our relics.

The best stage of the Relics was the 2.0 relics with HM primals. After that has been a decline from challenging fun content to mindless boring grind.

Raiding difficulties should be on a slider, not a set hard/difficult.

Raiding rewards are irrelevant, even as they are now. They don't effect participation so much as they provide an excuse to keep it the same via circular reasoning. Raiding must be hard to justify the gear they get. The gear has to be better than everyone else to justify the difficulty.

It's not just a difficulty, the idea needs to be re-thought from the ground up. Thankfully, due to SE pretty much segmenting its entire system, this sort of massive revision is possible - albiet it would not be seen for quite some time (About 2 years is what I'd guess to take a brand new development idea, provided they're not stopping production on existing projects. Not this coming expansion but the next.)

As far as where relics go for their upgrades. Why can it not be both? Something that upsets me about this game is how segmented a lot of its reward systems have become. It's time released rather than effort released - which causes overall burn out. Weekly lockouts, items for upgrades that can only come from specific content with no alternatives for multiple months. The way the reward system in this game is implemented is very divisive of the player base itself - as if raid culture alone did not cause enough of a rift.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

As far as where relics go for their upgrades. Why can it not be both? Something that upsets me about this game is how segmented a lot of its reward systems have become. It's time released rather than effort released - which causes overall burn out. Weekly lockouts, items for upgrades that can only come from specific content with no alternatives for multiple months. The way the reward system in this game is implemented is very divisive of the player base itself - as if raid culture alone did not cause enough of a rift.

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Well, the post-relic grind (getting the +1/Zenith) was a nice break from killing HM primals to get the relic in the first place. I half expected them to make EX primals part of the upgrading process; then Atmas and animus books were introduced.

Hard content with reasonable grinds in-between would make sense. Making the whole of relic progression rely on grinds was simply a bad call. And the reason why I ignore relic-related content.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Again, I'd rather relics require difficult content instead of grinds. You'd see more people going for them without being bored to tears. I still remember back when ARR launched a group of people in my FC decided to start running HM primals nightly to try to progress our relics.

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I remember that as well and also agree that the original relic path at 2.0 was the best.

The majority of players I know that raid have an alt to run the raid twice. So I believe that the real number of people that cleared Midas savage is far less than those numbers.

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Originally Posted by AerisVII

The majority of players I know that raid have an alt to run the raid twice. So I believe that the real number of people that cleared Midas savage is far less than those numbers.

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Atm I am pondering if it is really worth it to do this. On one hand I already have a lvl 60 alt stashed on Balmung that would be easily geared up, on the other one I am not sure I want to spend additional time and money on something I consider a design flaw - there are way too many timegates and lockouts

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Originally Posted by zosia

We are not just talking about raid stuff here. Everyone anticipates raids becoming easier either by direct or indirect nerfs. Items like primal birds, coffin lid, thavnarian set, minions, etc, should remain rare for ever to give players long term goals to work on. It's just like fenrir and the minicactpot, it gives people a reason to log in every day.

If you anticipate that every grind associated with a reward will be nerfed into the ground, you can literally wait until the end of the expansion to sweep up all the rewards for a fraction of the effort. This type of problem stretches across the entire game, nothing is worth doing while it's current.

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My philosophy applies to every single thing in the game.

When I spend 40 million gil on the full Thavnarian set I don't do it because I want to feel special and more privileged than other players or feel like I have something that other people will never get. I do it because it is pretty and I want it right now. I don't feel bad that others players get to buy it two or three months later for 40k or less. I didn't even feel bad when other players got to buy it one whole week later for less than half that price.

There is nothing wrong with every single thing in this game becoming more accessible as time passes.

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Originally Posted by AerisVII

The majority of players I know that raid have an alt to run the raid twice. So I believe that the real number of people that cleared Midas savage is far less than those numbers.

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And myself and I am sure several others flagged this not only in time gated dungeons but with red script crafting and gathering. Are they going to gate content on the premise we all have 3 to 8 fully capped characters?

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Atm I am pondering if it is really worth it to do this. On one hand I already have a lvl 60 alt stashed on Balmung that would be easily geared up, on the other one I am not sure I want to spend additional time and money on something I consider a design flaw - there are way too many timegates and lockouts

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Yep and they don't resolve anything. The game is destined to implode at each expansion number patch.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The number of people actively raiding would grow if the content allowed for some leniency in execution (read: varied difficulty modes) and cost of entry was not that high.

Think of it like playing something on easy mode then working your way up in difficulty. Playing a game on normal and then trying hard is not really massive since you've already cleared the game and have an idea of how the mechanics work.And believe it or not, lenient mechanics at the entry/post-entry level do act as an encouragement to bring new people or non-raiding regulars because you don't run the risk of a wipe if someone messes up.

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True except some people have a skill ceiling. No matter how much they practice, they will never reach the ceiling. Be it cerebral limitations or reflex limitations.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Atm I am pondering if it is really worth it to do this.

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Alt is useful when you've cleared it this week on your main, and somebody ask you to help them with savage. If you use alt (sufficiently geared), you can help them without affecting their loot.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

My philosophy applies to every single thing in the game.

When I spend 40 million gil on the full Thavnarian set I don't do it because I want to feel special and more privileged than other players or feel like I have something that other people will never get. I do it because it is pretty and I want it right now. I don't feel bad that others players get to buy it two or three months later for 40k or less. I didn't even feel bad when other players got to buy it one whole week later for less than half that price.

There is nothing wrong with every single thing in this game becoming more accessible as time passes.

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I have never understood people's obsession with needing others endue the same challenges or whatever they did in order for it to feel special. Individual accomplishments are what you make of them. I was absolutely thrilled when I finally crafted my first piece of Ironworks. It wouldn't bother me in the least if they suddenly nerfed it because my personal efforts paid off. When I look at say, raiding. I'm not thinking "oh, this will be so much easier if I wait a year," I'm thinking, "I want to get in and see how many times this fight kicks my butt until I kick it back!"

To each their own and all, but I just don't see what the big deal with things becoming more accessible down the road.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

Alt is useful when you've cleared it this week on your main, and somebody ask you to help them with savage. If you use alt (sufficiently geared), you can help them without affecting their loot.

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This is a system I wish they would abandon. It's wholly pointless considering alts are an easy enough workaround, and actively prevents people from subbing into other statics if needed.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

snip.

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I think it's mainly because people don't want it to be accessible easily so early when it releases.

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Originally Posted by Remus

I think it's mainly because people don't want it to be accessible easily so early when it releases.

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Aye. However the person quoted wanting certain bits of content to never become more accessible, which often results in the opposite effect: i.e., people don't bother at all. The 210 Anima step is a perfect example of content that split the community wholly due to the immense amount of grinding. Making say, Primal Ponies and Pigeons easier to get several months to a year later isn't diminishing the reward itself. None of those are skill based. A sprout could step into Ravana EX and roll lucky on a pigeon after their first attempt.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

My philosophy applies to every single thing in the game.When I spend 40 million gil on the full Thavnarian set I don't do it because I want to feel special and more privileged than other players or feel like I have something that other people will never get. I do it because it is pretty and I want it right now. I don't feel bad that others players get to buy it two or three months later for 40k or less. I didn't even feel bad when other players got to buy it one whole week later for less than half that price.

There is nothing wrong with every single thing in this game becoming more accessible as time passes.

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yes there is and it reflects in the sub numbers.

Yoshi P, has tried it your way and it's causing this game to crash and burn. No one wants to maintain a long term sub when you can sub for a few key months and have everything else a long term subbed player has.

Just because you are abnormal and don't care about rarity does not mean other players don't. It practically drives most human motivations, to stand out that is. You can pretend to be high minded, but there are points in your life where you made choices to stand out and be a special little snow flake just like people want now in this game.

I got my degree in physics because I knew it would make me stand out from most other college graduates. I bought a nice car, because I know it will make me stand out. I dress nicely as often as I can, because I know it will make me stand out. If I sink 10 hrs a week into my hobby, I want to be able to stand out. This is human nature, this is what motivates us in many ways as humans. I choose to embrace human nature, you can do as you wish.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I have never understood people's obsession with needing others endue the same challenges or whatever they did in order for it to feel special. Individual accomplishments are what you make of them. I was absolutely thrilled when I finally crafted my first piece of Ironworks. It wouldn't bother me in the least if they suddenly nerfed it because my personal efforts paid off. When I look at say, raiding. I'm not thinking "oh, this will be so much easier if I wait a year," I'm thinking, "I want to get in and see how many times this fight kicks my butt until I kick it back!"

To each their own and all, but I just don't see what the big deal with things becoming more accessible down the road.



This is a system I wish they would abandon. It's wholly pointless considering alts are an easy enough workaround, and actively prevents people from subbing into other statics if needed.

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Well, the dev team has been trying the 'everyone can have everything given enough time' design philosophy for three years now and how well has it worked out sub wise? Let me save you the time of pondering over it... IT'S going TERRIBLE! This game lost close to 24% of it's active endgame player base from the last unofficial census. That's like 150k subs gone in 7 months.

There has to always be long term goals with huge carrots attached or there is no reason to stay subbed year around. Your philosophy is not playing out well in this game, the subs reflect that well enough.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Aye. However the person quoted wanting certain bits of content to never become more accessible, which often results in the opposite effect: i.e., people don't bother at all. The 210 Anima step is a perfect example of content that split the community wholly due to the immense amount of grinding. Making say, Primal Ponies and Pigeons easier to get several months to a year later isn't diminishing the reward itself. None of those are skill based. A sprout could step into Ravana EX and roll lucky on a pigeon after their first attempt.

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It does not diminish the reward, it just makes people less motivated to collect less rare rewards. Lets be real, people like using special mounts. There are several ways to make something special and keeping the item in question rare is among them. If everyone knows that primal birds will end up at the same rarity as the primal ponies, why even bother farming them now?

People can wait until 4.0-4.1, duo or trio these fights, and benefit from a much higher drop rate.

It takes the motivation out of doing content while it's current. That's why we can't keep people subbed to this game, there is no point in maintaining a long term sub.

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Originally Posted by zosia

yes there is and it reflects in the sub numbers.

Yoshi P, has tried it your way and it's causing this game to crash and burn. No one wants to maintain a long term sub when you can sub for a few key months and have everything else a long term subbed player has.

There are several ways to make something special and keeping the item in question rare is among them. If everyone knows that primal birds will end up at the same rarity as the primal ponies, why even bother farming them now?

People can wait until 4.0-4.1, duo or trio these fights, and benefit from a much higher drop rate.

It takes the motivation out of doing content while it's current. That's why we can't keep people subbed to this game, there is no point in maintaining a long term sub.

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i don't think SE cares if you play current content for the whole month. I think they care more about if you come back over and over.

That's why they keep introducing seasonal events with no way to acquire some later. Most games now days invent systems to keep you grinding or make sure you come back.

Some games call it seasons, some call it living world, some call it smaller incremental updates every 1-3 months, some call it ilevel, some call it dailies, some call it beast tribes, etc, etc. When/if a developer cares if you stay subbed long durations they invent content with longer sustenance or what people call massive amounts of time content, weekly lockouts galore, long play sessions, horizontal progression.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

i don't think SE cares if you play current content for the whole month. I think they care more about if you come back over and over.

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Then the dev team and SE are good at making some pretty daft calls. The more months people are subbed, the more they will make. Also, I doubt hundreds of thousands of players are just waiting in the wings to rush back in an resub to this game.

I dunno, this game has so many problems and there are people here still defending the status quo. Maybe this game does deserve to go F2P and die.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Hey, I want longer sustained content as well. I came from XI 8 year vet and miss some things there.

No one really makes games like that anymore though not even SE. You would be surprised though, I bet it's more than you think. It's the era of the casual and old school dinosaurs like me have to either suck it up or quit the genre.

They don't make em like they used to. Times have changed.

At best maybe SE could slow the nerf down rather than the constant nerfs and super speed ilvl ranks.

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I meant no offense. Sorry if there was any.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Then the dev team and SE are good at making some pretty daft calls. The more months people are subbed, the more they will make. Also, I doubt hundreds of thousands of players are just waiting in the wings to rush back in an resub to this game.

I dunno, this game has so many problems and there are people here still defending the status quo. Maybe this game does deserve to go F2P and die.

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Hey, I want longer sustained content as well. I came from XI 8 year vet and miss some things there.

No one really makes games like that anymore though not even SE. You would be surprised though, I bet it's more than you think. It's the era of the casual and old school dinosaurs like me have to either suck it up or quit the genre.

They don't make em like they used to. Times have changed.

At best maybe SE could slow the nerf down rather than the constant nerfs and super speed ilvl ranks.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Well, the dev team has been trying the 'everyone can have everything given enough time' design philosophy for three years now and how well has it worked out sub wise? Let me save you the time of pondering over it... IT'S going TERRIBLE! This game lost close to 24% of it's active endgame player base from the last unofficial census. That's like 150k subs gone in 7 months.

There has to always be long term goals with huge carrots attached or there is no reason to stay subbed year around. Your philosophy is not playing out well in this game, the subs reflect that well enough.

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I suppose that explains why Black Desert is booming with activity. After all, the game is practically designed with the slow reward ideal in mind. In fact, virtually all Eastern MMOs follow a similar model, yet none last in the West. People aren't leaving because the devs added tokens to Pigeon farming. They left for a variety reasons; drought in content, Alexander being tuned far too high, lack of a midcore or the saturation of MMOs in general. You're also neglecting the fact this survey came at a time when the current cycle is nearing its end and two major games were released; one of which includes a $15 sub.

Doing a complete 180 on mount drops or Anima grinds aren't going to bring people back nor would it have influenced their decision to begin with. Frankly, even the most vocal complaints on this forum do not align with your theory; that being gear not lasting long enough.

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It does not diminish the reward, it just makes people less motivated to collect less rare rewards. Lets be real, people like using special mounts. There are several ways to make something special and keeping the item in question rare is among them. If everyone knows that primal birds will end up at the same rarity as the primal ponies, why even bother farming them now?

People can wait until 4.0-4.1, duo or trio these fights, and benefit from a much higher drop rate.

It takes the motivation out of doing content while it's current. That's why we can't keep people subbed to this game, there is no point in maintaining a long term sub.

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You do realize, the drop rates on Primal mounds were increased expressly because enough people complained, yes? What also kills motivation is subjecting oneself to 200+ Ravana EX runs in DF because RNG decided to hate you. That is neither fun nor challenging. And while I'd do it because I like collecting stuff. If the game were designed around endless RNG, I can't say my interest would last.

And wait two years doing so. Most people who care about unique mounts or rewards want them now. The equivalent is my waiting to pick up FFXV because it'll be cheaper six months later. If I want the game badly enough, I'll buy it early. Most people do that.

If your only motivation to sub is rolling the dice on a mount drop... you aren't longed to stay subbed.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Then the dev team and SE are good at making some pretty daft calls. The more months people are subbed, the more they will make. Also, I doubt hundreds of thousands of players are just waiting in the wings to rush back in an resub to this game.

I dunno, this game has so many problems and there are people here still defending the status quo. Maybe this game does deserve to go F2P and die.



I meant no offense. Sorry if there was any.

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None taken. Everyone is entitled to a belief or opinion and no one is always right or wrong. :)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I suppose that explains why Black Desert is booming with activity. After all, the game is practically designed with the slow reward ideal in mind. In fact, virtually all Eastern MMOs follow a similar model, yet none last in the West. People aren't leaving because the devs added tokens to Pigeon farming. They left for a variety reasons; drought in content, Alexander being tuned far too high, lack of a midcore or the saturation of MMOs in general. You're also neglecting the fact this survey came at a time when the current cycle is nearing its end and two major games were released; one of which includes a $15 sub.

Doing a complete 180 on mount drops or Anima grinds aren't going to bring people back nor would it have influenced their decision to begin with. Frankly, even the most vocal complaints on this forum do not align with your theory; that being gear not lasting long enough.

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Where did I ask for a 180? You are being hyperbolic and assuming my position. Just because I believe in the notion of rarity and compelling carrots does not mean I think every last thing in FFXIV needs to be a grind like some korean F2P grindy crapfest.

There is an extreme imbalance in this game when we have no long term carrots to work on that will stay rare. The only real long term goal this game has is housing and that is not even a readily available long term goal on most servers (since there are few severs with lots left).

But, go on, keep defending the status quo. A 24% sub loss over 7 months is nothing to worry about /s

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You do realize, the drop rates on Primal mounds were increased expressly because enough people complained, yes? What also kills motivation is subjecting oneself to 200+ Ravana EX runs in DF because RNG decided to hate you. That is neither fun nor challenging. And while I'd do it because I like collecting stuff. If the game were designed around endless RNG, I can't say my interest would last.

And wait two years doing so. Most people who care about unique mounts or rewards want them now. The equivalent is my waiting to pick up FFXV because it'll be cheaper six months later. If I want the game badly enough, I'll buy it early. Most people do that.

If your only motivation to sub is rolling the dice on a mount drop... you aren't longed to stay subbed.

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My little cousin complains that he can't have donuts for dinner, whats your point? Just because players want something does not mean it's good for the game. Did we not learn anything from gordias savage? You can see how pointless the ponies are now every time you see a whistle drop to the ground. The drop rates were waaaaaay too high.

The only nerf to the pony grind should have been outgearing the content. When players can duo or solo primals, do their respective mounts really need an increased drop rate? I mean, lets be real, if they had stayed around 5%, anyone who wants one today could still easily get them. Buffing them to 15-20%, or w/e the number is, was completely uncalled for.

The point that you are missing is that things are made WAAAAAAAAAAY to easy. SE has never heard of the concept of a goldilocks zone. The coffin lid is another great example. It went from a 1% drop rate to a 100% drop rate. There was absolutely no reason for that. It really should have just been around 30%, similar to other crystal tower furniture.

Again, pretend that this game is not careening down the pipes, you are only hurting your own game by doing so.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And wait two years doing so. Most people who care about unique mounts or rewards want them now. The equivalent is my waiting to pick up FFXV because it'll be cheaper six months later. If I want the game badly enough, I'll buy it early. Most people do that.

If your only motivation to sub is rolling the dice on a mount drop... you aren't longed to stay subbed.

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That being said, the last MMO had me running the equivalent of DREX prolly close to 1000 times before I got the weapon drop. Why did I do it? Because it was BiS and it stayed BiS for the good part of a year and a half. Once I got it, why did I keep running that dungeon for another 1000 times? because I could sell that same drop now that I have one for the equivalent of 100 mil gil.

The thing with Delayed rewards is that it only works with delayed obsolescence with no nerf tampering by the devs.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

True except some people have a skill ceiling. No matter how much they practice, they will never reach the ceiling. Be it cerebral limitations or reflex limitations.

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And this goes back to how the content is tuned and the elements of the encounter. I mentioned a former guildmate that would bring his elderly mother to our 25-man raids in WoW. Sometimes she would get hit doing something like the dance for Heigan the Unclean or the eye beams for Kologarn. Her getting hit never led to a wipe (at most she'd die or take a near-fatal amount of damage). She'd apologize, we'd laugh it off and move on.

Now imagine (channeling SE in how they design Savage) if getting hit by the green geysers for Heigan turned the hit player into a bomb that exploded 5 seconds after contact and dealt heavy damage plus a potent DoT to the whole raid. People would rage and say "fuck bringing new people/non-top tier players to this".

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Originally Posted by zosia

A 24% sub loss over 7 months is nothing to worry about

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http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...rs-by-quarter/
http://cdn2-www.craveonline.com/asse...1066777558.png

I dunno. Should we already start working on WoW's coffin then? They managed to pull similar percentages on a much higher total sub level. And not just once, it's pretty much every expansion now. They no longer publish numbers, unfortunately - guesses are it's down to about 4-3,5 million by now. Either way, it's got a pretty consistent downward trend as well that'll likely be shortly interrupted with legion again before it returns to its course. Unless Legion becomes another surprise success, then they might retain subs for a while longer - I heavily doubt they'll be able to rebound from that trend again.

Question would be how it looks with other MMORPG and whether this is a genre-wide trend. Any MMOs currently booming and gaining players en masse? Maybe a WoW-refugee camp? Did people all wander to MOBAs? Whooo knows.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...rs-by-quarter/
http://cdn2-www.craveonline.com/asse...1066777558.png

I dunno. Should we already start working on WoW's coffin then? They managed to pull similar percentages on a much higher total sub level. And not just once, it's pretty much every expansion now. They no longer publish numbers, unfortunately - guesses are it's down to about 4-3,5 million by now. Either way, it's got a pretty consistent downward trend as well that'll likely be shortly interrupted with legion again before it returns to its course. Unless Legion becomes another surprise success, then they might retain subs for a while longer - I heavily doubt they'll be able to rebound from that trend again.

Question would be how it looks with other MMORPG and whether this is a genre-wide trend. Any MMOs currently booming and gaining players en masse? Maybe a WoW-refugee camp? Did people all wander to MOBAs? Whooo knows.

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I think a lot of people feel legion is make or break for wow. I am not sure what your point is here? Since wow is doing badly we should not worry about this game? WoW was in decent shape at the end of MoP and could come back to a good state of things with legion? Who knows.

We can say this with certainty, this game is bleeding more subs at a higher rate % wise than wow. A roughly 25% sub loss in seven months is a much faster pace than anything wow is experiencing. If you think you can hide this games misgivings behind a declining MMO market, you are sorely mistaken. There are still good titles in this genre despite hard times.

If legion hits it out of the park, this game could easily lose another 150k subs. This game can survive on it's current amount of subs, but another 150k hit could easily eject this game from the sub model right into the garbage free to play market where it belongs.

If you think it's trash, why are you still here?

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

If you think it's trash, why are you still here?

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It's like you think this wasn't asked and answered several times in this thread alone.

Some people feel the game is lacking and feel it could be better, that's why we are here making suggestions instead of just off and quitting, that's me at least.

So if you thought you actually had something to add to the discussion...what is it? Certainly not this I hope.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

There is difference between thinking it can be improved and saying it belongs in garbage heap.

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Of course. There is also a difference between enjoying the game as it is and defending any and all of it's flaws without fail.

There are fanatics on both sides of the fence, you didn't seem to be speaking to anyone specifically though and just painting broad strokes about the thread and those who are posting in it.

There is difference between thinking it can be improved and saying it belongs in garbage heap.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

There is difference between thinking it can be improved and saying it belongs in garbage heap.

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Take a look at my post history, plenty of times in the past I tried to provide well thought out constructive feedback. I am done being civil with a dev team that does not deliver. After extra retainers, my sub WAS running me close to $30 a month and I expect a high level of excellence for that, a level which the dev team cannot manage to meet.

To answer you previous question, my sub is canceled as we speak. I have enough prepaid time to probably finish a12s, then I am gone. This dev team makes rookie mistakes right and left. This game has been dumpstered by heavenward, sorry if you have a problem with people calling it like it is.

A game losing roughly 25% of it's end game player base in seven months during the game's first real expansion is a terrible sign. At this point, I am just enjoying all the schadenfreude. I pleaded with the community back in 2015 about the concerns I had pertaining to the state of the end game, namely gordias savage. The casual crew did it's typical humming and hawing in the threads and none of the concerns were ever addressed or commented on by the community team. Now those savage birds are coming home to roost and I LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE being right.

Put two and two together, bub. This is the victory dance, and I will be enjoying myself for some time.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

There is difference between thinking it can be improved and saying it belongs in garbage heap.

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I'm curious, is there anything that you feel contributes to the numbers shown in the unofficial census? Is there anything that you believe would improve endgame player retention?

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Originally Posted by Zosia

This is the victory dance, and I will be enjoying myself for some time.

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I'm imagining you standing on an aircraft carrier with a giant "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" banner hanging up behind you.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

I'm curious, is there anything that you feel contributes to the numbers shown in the unofficial census? Is there anything that you believe would improve endgame player retention?

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I don't think playerbase this game is aimed at and endgame can ever really mesh well.

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Originally Posted by zosia

Where did I ask for a 180? You are being hyperbolic and assuming my position. Just because I believe in the notion of rarity and compelling carrots does not mean I think every last thing in FFXIV needs to be a grind like some korean F2P grindy crapfest.
There is an extreme imbalance in this game when we have no long term carrots to work on that will stay rare. The only real long term goal this game has is housing and that is not even a readily available long term goal on most servers (since there are few severs with lots left).

But, go on, keep defending the status quo. A 24% sub loss over 7 months is nothing to worry about /s

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You implied necessitating certain rewards stay at absurdly low drop rates indefinitely. As they do not, this would be a "complete 180". So no, I'm not being hyperbolic nor did I imply you meant every piece of content. Granted, Korean MMOs also do not gate everything behind RNG, just a substantial amount. I, personally, do not find RNG appealing unless I can somehow influence it-- like say, crafting. Why? Because it requires no skill or real effort on my part. I'm ilvl 230+ now, Ravana and Bismarck will melt provided I get a decent group in DF or just go the premade route.

So, in essence, waiting still technically benefits as I will clear Primals faster than were I at their relevant ilvl.

Who said I was defending the status quo? This is a strawman. We simply disagree on what is causing the sub decline. I specifically cited WoW's latest expansion, No May Sky, 3.3 nearing its end and the lack of enough content to sate people who aren't interested in Savage. Hardly what I would call "defending" the game. My point is people bored with the game aren't going to be tempted by pretty mounts when other MMOs offer the same.

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My little cousin complains that he can't have donuts for dinner, whats your point? Just because players want something does not mean it's good for the game. Did we not learn anything from gordias savage? You can see how pointless the ponies are now every time you see a whistle drop to the ground. The drop rates were waaaaaay too high.

The only nerf to the pony grind should have been outgearing the content. When players can duo or solo primals, do their respective mounts really need an increased drop rate? I mean, lets be real, if they had stayed around 5%, anyone who wants one today could still easily get them. Buffing them to 15-20%, or w/e the number is, was completely uncalled for.

The point that you are missing is that things are made WAAAAAAAAAAY to easy. SE has never heard of the concept of a goldilocks zone. The coffin lid is another great example. It went from a 1% drop rate to a 100% drop rate. There was absolutely no reason for that. It really should have just been around 30%, similar to other crystal tower furniture.

Again, pretend that this game is not careening down the pipes, you are only hurting your own game by doing so.

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Again. You are placing far too great a significance on mount or minion drops. The JP forum even complained they're bored of those, and want to see new collectibles added. Dangling the proverbial carrot is fine, but people who unsub aren't doing so for the reasons you presume. At least not in large amounts. FFXIV has simply stagnated for some while others are playing different games. Frankly speaking, if you aren't into roleplay or Savage (or can't beat it), the game can feeling lacking. That is going to cause sub losses.

In fact, let's look at the Yokai statistics. Despite a estimated 23% drop rate on medals over 300,000 characters has none. Now some may not like Yokai in and of itself, but if you aim to collect minions and mounts, this will be your only opportunity because the event won't return. That limitation still has not motivated 64% of active characters to even bother with one, let alone all thirteen.

Fate grinding is no different than Ravana EX a hundred plus times. They both become incredibly monotonous and require no skill whatsoever.

I understand your point just fine. I simply disagree with it. People aren't going to continue subbing for ponies or pigeons if they're bored of the game. Generally, when you lose interest in a game or hobby, the collectibles don't matter to you anymore. If I were bored of FFXIV, a couple lucky Pigeon drops would not suddenly revitalize my enjoyment of the game.

No one is pretending anything. You just seem incapable of appreciating someone may not share your opinion on the perceived problems. There is a difference.

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Originally Posted by CookieMonsta

That being said, the last MMO had me running the equivalent of DREX prolly close to 1000 times before I got the weapon drop. Why did I do it? Because it was BiS and it stayed BiS for the good part of a year and a half. Once I got it, why did I keep running that dungeon for another 1000 times? because I could sell that same drop now that I have one for the equivalent of 100 mil gil.

The thing with Delayed rewards is that it only works with delayed obsolescence with no nerf tampering by the devs.

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While you or I may be willing to grind an obscene amount, most people won't. This was already proven even in games with those massive time sinks. Korean MMOs consistently fail in the West because Western gamers typically are not interested in overly monotonous activity. I, again, point to Yokai, and Fate grinding in general. This also cripples new player growth because said players look at the Everest task ahead of them and give up before they even begin. FFXIV has its share of issues; chief among them being the devs do dish out far too much irrelevant gear and lacking any sort of midcore. But mount and minion drops aren't among them. At least not in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

I'm curious, is there anything that you feel contributes to the numbers shown in the unofficial census? Is there anything that you believe would improve endgame player retention?

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A8S seems actually more successful than A4S in the JP scene. Its a dance, do the dance, do the deeps and you will clear. Its all individual responsibility. Whereas A4S was a total crapshoot gearcheck.

As an endgame player, what would retain me is meaningful lasting progression. I am in the minority but I raid for the intangible rewards of improved reflexes, refined DPS and heightened tactical awareness, much like perfecting a martial art. I play the game for the people and just enjoying their company.
However, I do acknowledge many that need a material reward to keep going, especially once you are past the progression stage. This is the icing on the cake. Without people to play with, SE has lost me.

I also do know that nobody likes their hard-earned reward handed out like candy with time. It devalues the symbolic physical manifestation of effort and dedication required to attain it. I'm all for easing the process which leads up to the attainment but I'm against simply cutting out the reward and giving it elsewhere from a lesser activity.
e.g. allowing padjali weapons to be upgraded to 240 (still worse substats for many classes than the 240 lore) to ease the difficulty in attaining the GobDip, but giving it out for Mhaci Penny is too much.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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You missed the point entirely. It's not about pretty mounts and/or vanity items. It's about rewarding a person's time investment so that they're more inclined to invest more of their time and continue playing.

When you work your butt off for something only to have it become near meaningless weeks later, you're not going to be very enthusiastic about going through that again. When you have less and less reason to invest your time, you have less and less of a reason to stay subbed.

There is a fine balance in a progression centric MMO between earned exclusivity and general accessibility. This game has a heavy skew towards accessibility and that design decision reverberates through the entirety of its content.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

You missed the point entirely. It's not about pretty mounts and/or vanity items. It's about rewarding a person's time investment so that they're more inclined to invest more of their time and continue playing.

When you work your butt off for something only to have it become near meaninglessweeks later, you're not going to be very enthusiastic about going through that again. When you have less and less reason to invest your time, you have less and less of a reason to stay subbed.

There is a fine balance in a progression centric MMO between earned exclusivity and general accessibility. This game has a heavy skew towards accessibility and that design decision reverberates through the entirety of its content.

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Which part of gear is replaced after "a few weeks"? It's more like "3-6 months", depending on gear.

Also people should stop treating this game (or any game) like a retirement arrangement plan where you have to think about "where do I get the best return for my Investment". Just play the stupid game or don't, that's not a tax declaration.

I know a lot of people who are not subbed all the time (like 1 month stop every 2-3 months) and I know a lot of people currently playing Overwatch, No Man's Sky, etc. and only returning for raids&stuff 3 times a week.
I for myself just started healing after 100+d playtime and even que for Mhach or other stuff where I already got my weekly lockout, like A5S/A6S kills, Niddhog, etc.. or I help the boyfriend of an FC member who just started the game. Also I'm usually not doing any farms, just kill groups for ex primals, because they're more fun to play compared with standardized burn&farm groups.
No one of them would play this game more often, if there were longer lasting rewards.. why should they? Because they want to "work their ass off and be rewarded for that."? Well, they already do that... at work.

Like I'd say to the 2-month-sub/1-month-unsub - guy: "Hey, don't unsub now, you won't get the ultra long term reward then!" and he'd say "Oh yea, I totally stay subbed now and play, although I wanted to start some of my not yet touched steam games instead and take a break."..

Totally.. NOT. In my opinion you're totally overestimating gear/rewards in terms of motivation to play a game.

You may think "I only log on, if it's beneficial regarding reward". I just think "I log on, if I want to heal/tank/dps a FF14 fight."

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Originally Posted by Brian_

You missed the point entirely. It's not about pretty mounts and/or vanity items. It's about rewarding a person's time investment so that they're more inclined to invest more of their time and continue playing.

When you work your butt off for something only to have it become near meaningless weeks later, you're not going to be very enthusiastic about going through that again. When you have less and less reason to invest your time, you have less and less of a reason to stay subbed.

There is a fine balance in a progression centric MMO between earned exclusivity and general accessibility. This game has a heavy skew towards accessibility and that design decision reverberates through the entirety of its content.

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A time investment which requires no skill or actual effort and will inherently become easier over time even without better RNG. Would that same frustration not manifest if say, you had to clear Nidhogg EX 267 times before finally getting a Pigeon drop while I managed the exact same accomplishment in only 23? Because I can tell you right now if the reverse happened, well, a quote from FFIX sums up my opinion of the game nicely: "I'm sharpening my knife, kupo." I'd have put in only a tenth of the effort and walked away with the same reward. We are not talking about progression gear or achievements, but RNG. Like I said already, you are not going to convince someone bored of the game to stay because they got lucky one day. Sure, the initial euphoria may sate them for a bit, however it will wear off when they're now faced with yet again wondering what to do.

Content that necessitates skill, like raiding, I do think should remain relevant longer, and its rewards not so easily squished. But RNG isn't rewarding. It's just dumb luck.

From what I've seen here, and after what I feel after 3 months being out: is this game dying any time soon? No it's not; is this game doing well? No, definitely not.