Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW!

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Originally Posted by Mishari

Why 2 years?

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Because that's what all the people from FFXI want when it comes to gear progression. /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Mishari

I would like a more horizontal progression with more interesting (special) stats.
Thats what i loved about FFXI.
In current FFXIV, gear is getting obsolete too fast. It's frustrating and boring.

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What exactly is 'too fast'.

A Niddhog weapon (which is a filler one) lasts for 3 months, a 240 relic can be used for almost 5 months before you upgrade it again.
Lore gear will be replaced with new tomes after roughly 8 months.

I think I'll never get this 'gear changes too fast'.

How do you get new players into hard content, as soon as having left and right side in full uberduber 100 month lasting horizontal gear is the norm?

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Originally Posted by Mishari

I would like a more horizontal progression with more interesting (special) stats.
Thats what i loved about FFXI.
In current FFXIV, gear is getting obsolete too fast. It's frustrating and boring.

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Agreed. Gear treadmills have never been the most enticing thing for me. I'm the kind of player who likes the journey, I don't need a number or epic piece of gear to feel I've achieved something, just a new experience. Some games can release new gear and still achieve this. Rather than upping the tier each time, they just release a new variety of gear that's on par (read an optional alternative) to existing gear. GW2 and ESO are two good examples of this in practice.

Given how huge some of the achievements in game are, the frequent invalidating of gear items as happens currently feels like moving the goalposts too often, like jumping through hoops. Make it more about the journey and less about the gear.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

How do you get new players into hard content, as soon as having left and right side in full uberduber 100 month lasting horizontal gear is the norm?

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So how do you get new players into hard content?

the current gear system certainly doesn't work which is a big part of why the raiding population is as small as it is. the speed at which gear is replaced destroys the motivation and incentive for many players to even try harder content. because the rewards are outdated so quickly they have no value. and because they have no value and will be replaced so quick it's just not worth the effort to try and get them...

and thus players don't bother with the harder content. it's just not a worthwhile investment of time or effort. and thus the raiding scene is as small as it is.

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Originally Posted by Mishari

I would like a more horizontal progression with more interesting (special) stats.
Thats what i loved about FFXI.
In current FFXIV, gear is getting obsolete too fast. It's frustrating and boring.

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Let me ask. Lets say we go by FFXI's formula. You are a new player and you want to get to end game as soon as you can, you finally get there and turns out what is required out of you is gear that takes a horrendous amount of time to obtain to be even considered "caught up." Even if end game FC's let the person in regardless, it is massively overwhelming for a newer player to try to get caught up. This is something that will drive a newer player away very quickly.

In vertical progression, it is built up that anyone new jumping into the end game scene can get caught up and join with their friends. It is not to say that vertical has no faults, but with how this game's foundation is set up and the target audience SE's aims for, I doubt pure horizontal progression would be a thing.

I feel like I am the only one who thinks that gear is simply a means to take down the most recent content and preparation for the next tier of content. Not the central focus. Treat gear more like a novelty piece as opposed to a tool for taking down content. It is a video game, I care more about taking down all the content has to offer than caring about how shiny I can make my armor. That is what glamour is for.

More kind of realistic thing to ask for is variety of content to obtain gear. Like adding accessories to primals. SE already does semi-horizontal with their odd number patches, offering more variety on how you can get gear to catch up.

People should ask themselves again, "Is what I am asking for good for the player base as a whole? Or just good for me and my friends?" If it is good for the player base, then say how it works without harming the casual - midcore - hardcore fan base. Which is already in a iffy position with poorly structured raids and severe lack of midcore content.

FFXIV's current structure has issues, but the core foundation isn't broken or needs change. SE just needs to set their priorities and improve upon what they already have, then go into more new territory within their own established fundamentals.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

the current gear system certainly doesn't work which is a big part of why the raiding population is as small as it is.

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Well...and the fact that raiding just plain sucks with a lot of pointless side processes nobody wants to do in their free time (recruiting/scheduling/organizing) and a difficulty that appeals to very few players. The more and better rewards a content needs to be played, the worse it is designed.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

So how do you get new players into hard content?

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I expected an answer and not a repetition of my question.

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the current gear system certainly doesn't work which is a big part of why the raiding population is as small as it is. the speed at which gear is replaced destroys the motivation and incentive for many players to even try harder content. because the rewards are outdated so quickly they have no value. and because they have no value and will be replaced so quick it's just not worth the effort to try and get them...

and thus players don't bother with the harder content. it's just not a worthwhile investment of time or effort. and thus the raiding scene is as small as it is.

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Gear/Reqard is and should never be the main incentive for raiding.

Did you ever ask someone "Why do you raid?" and he said "Because of the strong gear."?
"Why don't you attemp the hardest content in game, where you have to rely on/synergize with 7 other good players." - "Because the gear sucks!".
Yeah, sure.

Savage gear now lasts for about 8 months, making it last for for 16 won't change a thing.
The only thing it does is seperating raiding and casual game even more. By now everone has to do a lot pieces of content to keep you gear up to date (and you play more than 1 job), which is a good thing in my opinion.

If you incentive is gear... what is the incentive to do the next raid if you got super horizontal gear in the last one? Is the new raid gear better? Isn't this vertical progression 2.0 then?

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Let me ask. Lets say we go by FFXI's formula. You are a new player and you want to get to end game as soon as you can, you finally get there and turns out what is required out of you is gear that takes a horrendous amount of time to obtain to be even considered "caught up." Even if end game FC's let the person in regardless, it is massively overwhelming for a newer player to try to get caught up. This is something that will drive a newer player away very quickly.

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I did not mean only horizontal. Keep the vertical progression but add some horizontal to that.
Maybe gear with a special stat. Firestarter proc rate +3%, -10 INT for example. (just an example! i don't know if that would work lol)
Put that behind a "long" grind or a quest chain or a NM (/shrug) or whatever. Everything but tomestones! D:

The majority of players play for gear, to be honest. If the gear is not that good, people do not try. It is human nature. People try to do as little as possible to get the reward wanted.

Look at Savage Second Coil. Only the top groups attempted it and fewer managed to complete it. It was very difficult. There was not much gear reward other than a Title. Other groups looked at Savage Second Coil and gave up because it was too difficult and not much material gain.

Not many people do stuff just for the love of it. For example, not many people go to work without material rewards (i.e. money). That is probably why the raid population is shrinking.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Let me ask. Lets say we go by FFXI's formula. You are a new player and you want to get to end game as soon as you can, you finally get there and turns out what is required out of you is gear that takes a horrendous amount of time to obtain to be even considered "caught up." Even if end game FC's let the person in regardless, it is massively overwhelming for a newer player to try to get caught up. This is something that will drive a newer player away very quickly.

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Ah, but the thing is, up until the last couple years of FFXI's life, while these hard-to-get pieces of gear were desired, they were not REQUIRED. The content could be completed without it; it just made the ride smoother. Groups that demanded such-and-such gear or you can't join? All but non-existent, and the few who tried were generally laughed off the field.

I remember on my server (Leviathan), there was one Red Mage who demanded nothing but Warriors with Relic weapons (arguably the best DPS at the time) to join her party. She was an outright laughing stock, because there were maybe a dozen Relic Warriors total on the server (relics were INSANELY hard to come by; a worse grind than any ten grinds in FFXIV put together), and they weren't particularly interested in carrying a Red Mage whenever she wanted an exp party. In another example, the Scorpion Harness was among the best DPS body pieces in the game for a long, long time - it was crafted gear, and while terribly expensive any DPS could get one if they saved up for it; likewise, the Noble's Tunic the best healer piece. And yet, very few people would turn away a DPS or healer simply because they didn't have one.

I can't say for certain what the reason was. Was the content too easy? Was gear acquisition too difficult? Or was the playerbase simply less "elitist"? Or some combination of these. Whatever the case, in FFXIV, not having top quality gear was not a bar of any kind, for any content in the game, for most of the game's lifespan.

Admittedly, this changed around the time Adoulin was released. FFXI started adopting a model more similar to FFXIV's at that point, with gear ilvls and boss monsters that would make short work of anyone without top-notch equipment. FFXI was successful for many years up to that point, but MMO players were a different breed back then, much more tolerant of spending months or YEARS just to get a particular piece of gear (though, again, it helped that that gear was a luxury, not a requirement to complete content).

Whatever the case, it's unquestionable that gear itemization in this game is excruciatingly boring. Whatever piece of gear you obtain, no matter how difficult, challenging, or grindy, it's all going to look the same: another notch up in Primary Stat, with a sprinkling of the same old tiresome substats. It's not going to last you for years like a Scorpion Harness or Astral Ring would - you can expect, at best, a little over half a year of life to it. Even as a trophy, it's not going to be long before the hoi polloi are parading the same gear around as the content gets easier and easier (whether through nerfs or simple gear advancement).

It's not going to change, either; we're stuck with this model. We can't introduce things like interesting gear abilities, because every piece of gear, down to the tiniest accessory, includes Primary Stat. As ilvl marches on, that interesting piece of gear will by necessity be left behind. If SE had had the foresight to keep primary stat OFF the accessories, they could have left those slots free for progressive experimentation. Equip left-side gear for primary stat advancement, and use right-side gear for interesting stuff like "Raise cast time reduced by 50%" or "Adds 20 potency Fire Damage to auto attacks". Situational stuff that's more useful in some fights than others - and for those who cry out that inventory space is too limited to have situational gear, just how much free space do you have in your Accessory tabs? I see no issue with having a few extra pairs of earrings that I could swap in for certain battles where they're more useful.

I will agree that an simple vertical progression system, especially during catch up time is great for new players. I will also state that it is not so good for people who want more for their efforts.

Since this is a "I just went there" thread...

The system sucks for people who want to have something to show for playing more than a few hours a day a few days a week. They want to be able to have something that rewards them for actually playing the combat part of the game instead of playing Barbie with their avatars or treating the game like a pretty chat room.

Yes, I just went there.

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Originally Posted by Mishari

I did not mean only horizontal. Keep the vertical progression but add some horizontal to that.
Maybe gear with a special stat. Firestarter proc rate +3%, -10 INT for example. (just an example! i don't know if that would work lol)
Put that behind a "long" grind or a quest chain or a NM (/shrug) or whatever. Everything but tomestones! D:

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We kind of already have it with multiple gear sets and odd number patches offering more ways to obtain said gear. I think what you are asking is for something outside of raid and tomestone gear, which could work if the right content was made for a third set. It could be overwhelming is the concerning issue. I can see SE's solution is offering more variety in content to obtain the tomestone gear, which is a good thing. I am open to suggestion however on the fence on what is a better approach, wouldn't mind hearing more of what people think about that. Either way is fine if done right. You just have things like 24-man raid to take into consideration.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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FFXI is definitely a product of it's time. It was built in the mind set it would be taking in a niche audience and built it upon that, along with prolonging features since constantly adding content on a PS2 HDD would fill it up quick. FFXI was largely experimental also, taking influence from other MMO's like Everquest. The game was most definitely a success and did work for that niche audience during that time. It was a game however during it's prime, was very hard on newer players and catered heavily towards end game. I heard multiple stories of people trying to get in and enjoy it, but the requirements for the smallest things were too great to enjoy leisurely. End game I can't speak on behalf of every LS and server, but a lot of times, serious end game HNMLS's did not want you unless you at least had decent items on you which were a feat itself to get like SAM were required to have Haubergeon+1, a good STR piece, O.Kote, Hagun. Which required having a lot of gil, or spending time with lower end LS's and BCNM/ENM's to get them. Mages needing to have every staff at +1.

At a midcore/hardcore level I suppose it works, but it easily kills off the casual scene, which SE clearly wants in FFXIV. We can argue that FFXIV works too largely in the casual's favor, but I don't think such heavy methods that FFXI did are the answer. It would be the same problem in reverse. Even the current FFXI realizes it needed to ease up on some aspects of the game. Which actually in my opinion the game is much better for it, especially for newer players wanting to try it out.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

The system sucks for people who want to have something to show for playing more than a few hours a day a few days a week. They want to be able to have something that rewards them for actually playing the combat part of the game instead of playing Barbie with their avatars or treating the game like a pretty chat room.

Yes, I just went there.

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Isn't there already a lot that caters to this though? I mean there's raid mount drops, raid weapons, relic weapons if you're after a real relic, and then of course whichever is the latest tier of gear on the table too. Seems this kind of system is exactly what this game currently leans towards? And because they keep releasing a new end game weapon/armour, that treadmill just keeps running right?

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Originally Posted by Istaru

They want to be able to have something that rewards them for actually playing the combat part of the game instead of playing Barbie with their avatars or treating the game like a pretty chat room..

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Isn't that what the titles from SCOB, Mount from A4S, and Minion from A8S are meant to do.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

I will agree that an simple vertical progression system, especially during catch up time is great for new players. I will also state that it is not so good for people who want more for their efforts.

Since this is a "I just went there" thread...

The system sucks for people who want to have something to show for playing more than a few hours a day a few days a week. They want to be able to have something that rewards them for actually playing the combat part of the game instead of playing Barbie with their avatars or treating the game like a pretty chat room.

Yes, I just went there.

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Well people do say the true end game is glamour kinda sad has some truth behind those words >.> next will be mogstation cash shop end game well if you a mount/minion/glamour collector.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Altering the msq wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. The problem with the msq is there's so much filler junk in it that a lot of the main plot points are completely lost.

The slayer of mighty primals as you said yet after defeating a mighty primal you're then resorted to whacking a few bugs for some dumb npc for lord only knows what reason. Hardly a fitting task for the slayer of mighty primals.

Theres to many filler quests that end up burying the the more key plot points.

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Altering the MSQ (for others) is very much a bad thing since it changes a fundamental aspect of the game for your poersonal wishes in a way that changes the main story setting for other players. If that is what you are really seggesting, then it's a very selfish and short sighted wish. FFXIV is a story driven game, the kinds of changing open world that you appear to want is not really compatible with that kind of game.

As for your point about the WoL, I agree, but that does not require that the open world be altered for others to suit higher level players. When those kinds of wishes are expressed despite the impact they would have on other, I can see why newer players or lower level players might start to conclude that high level players are a bit elitist since they want changes to the game to suit them, regardless of the consequences on others. It's perfectly possible within the realm of FFXIV and the types of content that is has to offer WoL standard quests without modifying the open world to suit.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

You really need to learn.

I didn`t ask for the game to become GW2, just to be more like it. A game can use advances, techniques and good ideas from others while retaining their own form. Thats why genres exist and not a single game is absolutely independent of the influence of others. FFXIV has taken way too much from the last decade of this industry which standars have been set mostly by WoW. 3 years into the game, its time to look for new influences, specifically, in games that didn`t follow the WoW Formula.

And considering there is not a single MMORPG which takes the whole horizontal progression to an extreme as much as GW2, and that being the biggest need this game has, i see nowhere else where to take a few ideas from.

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It seems like the person requiring to learn something is you. You are asking for this game to change to be like some other game. I simply said let GW2 be GW2 and FFXIV be FFXIV, if you want to play a game like GW2, play GW2, when you want to polay FFXIV, then play it. There is no need to blend the two, they offer something distinct and different.

Lastly, I wish that you, like so many people, would take off the WoW glasses that you have on. WoW really did not invent many if any of the concepts it uses whether they be game systems, currencies & tokens, lockouts, or story cues. As has been pointed out many times all MMORPGs borrow from the games we used to play with character sheets and dice, and allof the ones in fantasy settings draw heavily on literary sources such as Lord of the Rings. So please, least stop pretending that this game or any other borrows from WoW... as if WoW was the originator of all things MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by Zafrei

Isn't there already a lot that caters to this though? I mean there's raid mount drops, raid weapons, relic weapons if you're after a real relic, and then of course whichever is the latest tier of gear on the table too. Seems this kind of system is exactly what this game currently leans towards? And because they keep releasing a new end game weapon/armour, that treadmill just keeps running right?

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Raid mounts - Aren't these just another type of glamour in the end? They do not add anything lasting to your character except something pretty to ride on.

Raid weapons - Again, worth getting for one patch cycle then they become glamour.

Relic Weapons - Mostly glamour. They are not BiS more than they are BiS.

Last gear - Weekly lockout. After about 8 hours of content everyone is at the same power level whether they play 8 hours a week or 8 hours per day.

You are absolutely correct about the treadmill runs into infinity.

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Originally Posted by Lambadelta

Isn't that what the titles from SCOB, Mount from A4S, and Minion from A8S are meant to do.

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Aren't they glamour items at the end of the day? They are things to dress up your character and not much else.

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Originally Posted by odintius

Well people do say the true end game is glamour kinda sad has some truth behind those words >.> next will be mogstation cash shop end game well if you a mount/minion/glamour collector.

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I agree that glamour is the endgame of FFXIV, I also agree it's kinda sad.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

I agree that glamour is the endgame of FFXIV, I also agree it's kinda sad.

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You wanted something to show you did high levels of combat. There you are special glamour to show that off.

What do u want them to do? throw you a parade.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Raid mounts - Aren't these just another type of glamour in the end? They do not add anything lasting to your character except something pretty to ride on.

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What would tyou have the mounts do, have some super special attack mode? Of course a mount is a mount, but exclusive mounts are exclusive, hence the reason for getting tthem.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Raid weapons - Again, worth getting for one patch cycle then they become glamour.

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Um, isn't it more like two patch cycles, the weapons you get in 3.2 are still as good or better than the weapons you can get in 3.3, 3.35 are they not?

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Relic Weapons - Mostly glamour. They are not BiS more than they are BiS.

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From your perspective perhaps. relics were added not for raiders and end-gamers, but for players who will grind their way through things over a long time. They mmayy not be BiS for you, but they're going to be the best many players can expect for a while.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Last gear - Weekly lockout. After about 8 hours of content everyone is at the same power level whether they play 8 hours a week or 8 hours per day.

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Everyone at end-game perhaps, which is what happens when there is a decent sizded end-game community. End-game is not the only game or content or player-base.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Aren't they glamour items at the end of the day? They are things to dress up your character and not much else.

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That can be said of anything older than a couple of patches, and that is true in almost every game around. Except that in FFXIV we get content patches roughly every 3 months, instead of every 6-12 months or longer like most other games have to settle for.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

Raid mounts - Aren't these just another type of glamour in the end? They do not add anything lasting to your character except something pretty to ride on.

Raid weapons - Again, worth getting for one patch cycle then they become glamour.

Relic Weapons - Mostly glamour. They are not BiS more than they are BiS.

Last gear - Weekly lockout. After about 8 hours of content everyone is at the same power level whether they play 8 hours a week or 8 hours per day.

You are absolutely correct about the treadmill runs into infinity.




Aren't they glamour items at the end of the day? They are things to dress up your character and not much else.





I agree that glamour is the endgame of FFXIV, I also agree it's kinda sad.

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So your answer to the treadmill is keeping the same stuff for years no thanks.

Nearly every piece of gear in every (MMO)RPG will sooner or later become obsolete (that is: until you reach the End) or get's a upgrade, so we are only discussing the time frame, are we?

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Nearly every piece of gear in every (MMO)RPG will sooner or later become obsolete (that is: until you reach the End) or get's a upgrade, so we are only discussing the time frame, are we?

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What they are asking for is more novelty in their gear. Or the idea that their gear took a really long time to get and have that lasting effect for whatever unrealistic time they are requesting. They want to get a body piece and have it last for longer than SE currently dates gear every 6-8 months.

There does need to be balance in value of gear and the content that goes with it. Gear is a component in the influence to engage in content, because people naturally don't care to take on content that does not reward you like real life. Savage SCoB showed that. At the same time, the game should not have such a heavy focus on the carrot at the end of the stick, which it doesn't mostly. To myself at least, it is engaging in new content and overcoming it are before what it drops. I personally enjoy having new goals given to me instead of constantly engaging the same exact content 1-2 years into it.

FFXI had so much value in gear because of the ridiculous conditions to get some of it, which naturally made people more emotionally attached to the item.

SE should in the next expansion give us a new system of points for unique traits (similar to PVP points).
And some rare traits could only be unlocked by doing and beating Savage. In that case, the raiders could be rewarded and have some uses of those traits for the next fights.
It would be a + and a way to improve depending of the fight.
I think it's the best type of reward a raider could expect, something which touch the gameplay of his class, the possibility to play his class differently and adapt his way to play according to the situation.
Give more power to the player to fight, and not these minions and mounts which have no impact on the gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Lambadelta

You wanted something to show you did high levels of combat. There you are special glamour to show that off.

What do u want them to do? throw you a parade.

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A parade of A4S mounts??? Deal!

Being serious, how about Alexander Midas gear not being garbage once 3.4 hits? I think that is part of the problem that people have with itemization in this game. Once you hit a point in the patch cycle, usually around the midpoint of the catchup patch. Doing the raid for gear kinda goes out the window. The reason for doing it at that point goes back to glamour, titles, mounts and minions and possibly bragging rights. Reason being that once the new even patch comes out, it invalidates that gear as being potentially BiS and the new gear makes the old raid easier to clear.

I like the glamour, titles, mounts and minions part of the game.

I don't know what makes itemization better than it is now. I really don't. The horizontal system in XI worked due to gearswapping. A lot of gear was desirable for a long time only because of the ability to use it situationally. That is not going to happen here, and it's ok that it won't.

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Originally Posted by Istaru

I don't know what makes itemization better than it is now. I really don't. The horizontal system in XI worked due to gearswapping. A lot of gear was desirable for a long time only because of the ability to use it situationally. That is not going to happen here, and it's ok that it won't.

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Gear swap was not an intended design, and more close to an exploit in the game. It was awful to deal with, and would be awful in this game. Inventory space already being reason enough not to. People with the current system in place right now already struggle with inventory/armory/retainer space.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The raid community is dying because of the raid communities attitude towards newer players and the unwillingness to teach new players and the stupid notion that raiding and previous tiers somehow gives you experience to do the new tier. The wounds are self inflicted. If you are a newer player forget about midas no one will let you in. no one wants to take the time to train up anyone else. so their only option is to gear up in lore gear and wait for the next cycle and hope to get lucky with finding a group.

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Uhmm, what? I can only see this if you are a newer player trying to join an experienced raiding group. There are plenty of FC's who take in newer players and work them towards raiding. It is unrealistic to believe you just hit end game and a experienced raid group take you in. Also it is silly to think -this- is what the issue with raiding is.

The issue with raiding is that there is no midcore version of it. Instead taking that away and only making a casual version and a hardcore version. Well hardcore to a lesser extent in 3.2. The difficulty curve of the game sky rockets with the only remote thing getting you somewhat ready is extreme primals. SE damaged the intended audience to have a story mode in raids when it was better off going the SCoB structure. Doing what they did killed off a large portion of the midcore scene in 3.0 and barely recovered from it in 3.2. So casual players can get their one days worth of pleasure from story content. Wouldn't be a problem if SE offered three modes, but according to them their resources allow them only two.

These are real issues to end game, not "How long can I hold onto my piece of gear!?"

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Originally Posted by lulunami

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The raid community is dying because of the raid communities attitude towards newer players and the unwillingness to teach new players and the stupid notion that raiding and previous tiers somehow gives you experience to do the new tier. The wounds are self inflicted. If you are a newer player forget about midas no one will let you in. no one wants to take the time to train up anyone else. so their only option is to gear up in lore gear and wait for the next cycle and hope to get lucky with finding a group.

People aren't as slick as they think with this thread. A lot of us who played XI know exactly what these folks are asking for. Overpowered weapons/armor that ONLY they can get and require others to get in order to join their "exclusive" cliques. They'd love it if relics took two years to complete and contained stats that made needlessly overpowered monsters a cakewalk. It would be yet another barrier to entry that they could brag about on the endgamer forums.

No thanks to any of that.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

People aren't as slick as they think with this thread. A lot of us who played XI know exactly what these folks are asking for. Overpowered weapons/armor that ONLY they can get and require others to get in order to join their "exclusive" cliques. They'd love it if relics took two years to complete and contained stats that made needlessly overpowered monsters a cakewalk. It would be yet another barrier to entry that they could brag about on the endgamer forums.

No thanks to any of that.

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Unfortunately right now the game is the exact opposite of this. Just like everything up to now, come patch 3.4, everything not labeled "Savage" or "Extreme" will hand out trophies for participation. In my opinion this is the biggest problem we have.

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Originally Posted by drivendawn

So your answer to the treadmill is keeping the same stuff for years no thanks.

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Actually, I don't think that is the answer either. Something between XI and XIV may be better for people. I will use my boyfriend as an example. He has 0 interest in raiding right now. Why?? He knows that in about a month or so, the gear will be useless to him.

I don't know how to fix that, but I do know he isn't the only one that feels that way. Maybe instead of a hard cutoff, they overlap instead?

3.0/3.1 was:
i190 Alex
i200 base Eso
i200 Void Ark
i210 Alex Savage
i210 upgraded Eso

3.2/3.3 was:
i220 Alex
i230 base Lore
i230 Weeping City
i240 Alex Savage
i240 upgraded Lore

Even if you raided Alex Midas nonstop, at 3.2, the gear needs to be replaced. The new Alex and Lore gear trumps it. Maybe something like this for 3.2/3.3 would be an improvement?

3.2/3.3 as:
i210 Alex
i210 base Lore
i210 Weeping City
i220 Alex Savage
i220 upgraded Lore

What happens?? The people with upgraded Eso and Savage gear do not have to toss it immediately. The new entry point is equal to the old exit point. There is still upward progression which the game needs. But it is not by hard edged steps, but rather by an incline instead.

On the flip side, people can say why bother with the new Tomestone gear when it's released, and that would be valid. Gearing other jobs or preparing for the upgrade steps would be about it I guess.

Is that an answer to what people have been saying/asking about? Maybe, maybe not. Is it better than what we have now? Maybe, maybe not.

I don't know what the answer is.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

People aren't as slick as they think with this thread. A lot of us who played XI know exactly what these folks are asking for. Overpowered weapons/armor that ONLY they can get and require others to get in order to join their "exclusive" cliques. They'd love it if relics took two years to complete and contained stats that made needlessly overpowered monsters a cakewalk. It would be yet another barrier to entry that they could brag about on the endgamer forums. No thanks to any of that.

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it already happened, they gave them customizable relics. Raid gear should be better than any other gear you can get access too. Plain n simple. Also the raid community dying because we wont take new players in? don't make me laugh. How do you think we got to where we are? By forming our own groups, grinding the content, wiping for days/weeks on end till we learned and cleared it. If that's to hard for you and your friends to do, Your the reason you havnt cleared it. Not us.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hayward

People aren't as slick as they think with this thread. A lot of us who played XI know exactly what these folks are asking for. Overpowered weapons/armor that ONLY they can get and require others to get in order to join their "exclusive" cliques. They'd love it if relics took two years to complete and contained stats that made needlessly overpowered monsters a cakewalk. It would be yet another barrier to entry that they could brag about on the endgamer forums.

No thanks to any of that.

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Well it is surpose to be a mmo I think the people who play know who don't have the time like they use to are trying to relive their glory days again and drag the mmo genre down along with them instead of moving onto another genre, luckly I don't really consider this a mmo more of a mo with a hub could use some better gear though it pretty dull ATM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jennika

Unfortunately right now the game is the exact opposite of this. Just like everything up to now, come patch 3.4, everything not labeled "Savage" or "Extreme" will hand out trophies for participation. In my opinion this is the biggest problem we have.

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Honestly, with Normal mode being there, Savage should always be ilvl synced. Make the title, achievement, and mount/minion, and gear despite being outdated still be something to be proud of. SCoB Savage's titles mean nothing because you can jump in at unsynced lv.60 and destroy all four turns.

This would keep this content in it's challenging state even if we jumped into 5.0.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

If this is all that you've garnered from the thread, it would seem you've only been skimming and coming to your own random conclusions.

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Is he wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hayward

People aren't as slick as they think with this thread. A lot of us who played XI know exactly what these folks are asking for. Overpowered weapons/armor that ONLY they can get and require others to get in order to join their "exclusive" cliques. They'd love it if relics took two years to complete and contained stats that made needlessly overpowered monsters a cakewalk. It would be yet another barrier to entry that they could brag about on the endgamer forums.

No thanks to any of that.

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If this is all that you've garnered from the thread, it would seem you've only been skimming and coming to your own random conclusions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Is he wrong?

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Are you agreeing that all of the comments regarding XI can be summed up a "I want epic weapons and armor so I can join exclusive cliques and to brag online"?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Are you agreeing that all of the comments regarding XI can be summed up a "I want epic weapons and armor so I can join exclusive cliques and to brag online"?

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More of the point he was making is that people wanting the type of system FFXI has cares more of the novelty of the gear more than other reasons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Velhart

More of the point he was making is that people wanting the type of system FFXI has cares more of the novelty of the gear more than other reasons.

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Perhaps he could work on forming a proper point in that case instead of relying on people to try and translate his comment.

When someone starts in with trying to sum up an entire thread, as it would appear he is doing by claiming "we're not as slick as we think in this thread", it's best not to focus on one tiny aspect of it, and then go with some broad (incorrect) generalization after that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Velhart

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Its not just experienced raid groups that do that its quite a few groups, less so at the start of a cycle but that's still a very small window to get your foot in the door so to speak. I'd argue that the entire game has been preparing you to raid.
Every single mechanic in this game has been taught to you the issue arises is that's there's no punishment. in an ex primal stand in a aoe you die, normal mode you just take some damage and the healer heals you. Stand in an aoe in a savage raid your group wipes or it leads to a wipe. so for the first time in the game people actually have to communicate or come up with a plan to handle it beforehand. The raid community stays smalls because after a some time passes in a cycle people don't want to teach anyone new. yet new people are hitting lvl 60 gearing up and want to raid hardly anyone takes them and they stop caring and wont be bothered to come back.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Honestly, with Normal mode being there, Savage should always be ilvl synced. Make the title, achievement, and mount/minion, and gear despite being outdated still be something to be proud of. SCoB Savage's titles mean nothing because you can jump in at unsynced lv.60 and destroy all four turns.

This would keep this content in it's challenging state even if we jumped into 5.0.

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Level and ilvl sync is like the red-headed stepchild in this game despite being potentially one of it's greatest assets. Pretty strict ilvl and level sync ought to remain in force on savage and EX content for a minimum of 4 patches and rather than unsyncing the content after that, the ilvl/level synch should be relaxed a fair bit, and that's how it should stay forever more. That way, the actual difficulty of the Savage/EX content is somewhat preserved for a complete year or more, and afterwards, although it's made more accessible, it becomes much easier due to the much more relaxed sync.

Content in general has been poorly served buy the level sync, the addition of an unsync'doption ought to also have coincided with a tighter sync in general to restore some of the challenge of early content. For players claiming to do things for the challenge this should not be a problem, and for players who don't want to be syncd thhey don't have to be. Everybody wins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jennika

Unfortunately right now the game is the exact opposite of this. Just like everything up to now, come patch 3.4, everything not labeled "Savage" or "Extreme" will hand out trophies for participation. In my opinion this is the biggest problem we have.

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Isn't that the point though? Extreme and Savage are the content designed for people seeking a harder challenge. Sure, I want them to scale the difficulty up as a whole, but the "story" is always going to be easy by comparison.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drivendawn

So your answer to the treadmill is keeping the same stuff for years no thanks.

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Drivendawn plays XIV 10 years.
Istaru plays XIV 10 years.

Drivendawn gets recycled gear every 3 months for 10 years.
Istaru works at a gear that gets slightly under-powered every 12-18 months for 10 years.

Drivendawn gets their gear in 3 months, 3-6 months later his gear is obsolete.
Istaru gets their gear in 9-15 months of hard work, finally gets the gear which is relevant for 9-18 months after acquisition or a bit longer.

Which gear do you think is appreciated more and let's them enjoy relevant gear longer?

Who is more inconvenienced? The player not getting gear every three months in wider increments or the player having to recycle every 3-6 months to stay meta? Which is a more tedious process?

If they are both playing 10 years, which is better?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Isn't that the point though? Extreme and Savage are the content designed for people seeking a harder challenge. Sure, I want them to scale the difficulty up as a whole, but the "story" is always going to be easy by comparison.

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Savage and Extreme should be more difficult than anything else. I think we need a 2nd tier that's more forgiving and less 1-shot mechanics but not a complete joke like most everything else.