Players Who Don't pull their weight.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Attitude is everything. Improve yours, and I guarantee you'll have a better time on the whole.

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I wish everyone had this mindset.

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Originally Posted by Larkspur

I wish everyone had this mindset.

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More people from FFXIV need to play MOBAs. Spend some time with those people and DF in FFXIV won't bother you anymore :p.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

More people from FFXIV need to play MOBAs. Spend some time with those people and DF in FFXIV won't bother you anymore :p.

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Funny you should say this, I play DOTA 2/League during the vacation from FFXIV when I feel bored between patches.

Go figure, that's exactly why I don't play MOBAs. I like video games being fun and not filled with generalized bile and resentment, which seems to have long since been the established culture of such venues.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Go figure, that's exactly why I don't play MOBAs. I like video games being fun and not filled with generalized bile and resentment, which seems to have long since been the established culture of such venues.

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MOBA players do have a reputation for being toxic, yes. That doesn't mean ALL of them are assholes, myself included.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Pulling back the focus a bit, I'm a bit bewildered, because these bad experiences in DF aren't what I'd personally call "frequent" in my experience, and I've been playing steadily since 2.0 rolled out. Yeah, you get some poor attitudes, some clearly inexperienced players, and sometimes even a bit of overlap between the two, but they're the exception rather than the rule. Most people just want to get stuff done; not necessarily in the most efficient conceivable way, but the goal is the same.

So at this point, all that really should be said is: If these people complaining are really having frequent problems in the Duty Finder, the most common factor can be observed in the nearest mirror.

Attitude is everything. Improve yours, and I guarantee you'll have a better time on the whole.

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But what you're actually calling "improving attitude" is really just "stop giving a shit about doing well at what you're doing." I guess I could be as oblivious as this DRK, but I'm not interested in Idiocracy becoming a reality.

http://i.imgur.com/ZMaUU7x.png

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Originally Posted by Klamor

But what you're actually calling "improving attitude" is really just "stop giving a shit about doing well at what you're doing." I guess I could be as oblivious as this DRK, but I'm not interested in Idiocracy becoming a reality.

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This is exactly what triggers me, espesically when said Tanks are strugglign with aggro because they aren't using their toolkit (in this example, no dorkside for the extra damage. It's also loss of mitigation abilities for pulls as well.

Nor is mana management that difficult or taxing unless you're min maxing. You can easily maintain it by doing a syphon combo every other time, and even without dork arts you're getting the damage buff. Not to mention the aforementioned mitigation abilties.

Yeah it's funny the correlation between people who say others are toxic and how they play, both in the games played and placing the blame on anyone but themselves.

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Originally Posted by Larkspur

MOBA players do have a reputation for being toxic, yes. That doesn't mean ALL of them are assholes, myself included.

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I believe you, but I've just been worn down by their reputation and the few glances I've taken. I'd had enough of that already in random group content in WoW. It's enough for me that FFXIV hasn't been similarly poisoned at the well...not for lack of trying, as these threads may imply, but astoundingly, good sense is surprisingly common even on these forums.

...ironically, this was posted as I was typing that:

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Originally Posted by Klamor

But what you're actually calling "improving attitude" is really just "stop giving a shit about doing well at what you're doing."

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Wrong.

:)

v v v v v

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Oh hey, guess your word is law so we can close the thread now right?

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I'm correct, true, but don't take my word for it. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Wrong.

:)

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Oh hey, guess your word is law so we can close the thread now right?

It's impressive how many people are dropping the word elitist when almost every comment wishing to improve the player base doesn't use the word "elite" to describe their goals- just "minimally knowing your class". Running into 300-400~ dps in 220+ iLvl is terrible no matter which way you cut it.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

People like to solo sometimes, so they're gonna need damage abilities. Also, I don't see you doing anything. Never played with you. If that's how you played, nobody has the right to tell you otherwise. You may think my play style is worse than whatever you want. There are tons of people who feel the same. It's not your duty to change our minds. You sure as heck are not changing mine.

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Holy is among the strongest aoe abilities in the whole game. You refusing to use it in dungeons isn't a playstyle, but simple arrogance. An equivalent would be me not bothering to use positionals on MNK, yet trying to tell people "well, that's just how I play!" If you want to intentionally gimp yourself, by all means, but don't then try to hide behind it being your "playstyle"

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Originally Posted by Mahri

It's enough for me that FFXIV hasn't been similarly poisoned at the well...not for lack of trying, as these threads may imply, but astoundingly, good sense is surprisingly common even on these forums.

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Ironically the good attitude might be exactly the main reason why "everything is allowed". Players don't have to fear that someone would harshly scold them and judge them while being correct in the judgement. That is a huge motivator when it comes to team based online games - trying your best to avoid being mocked.

Due to the lack of the poison now we have the opposite problem - way too many Carry-bears roaming around who want to eat all the honey while others are getting stingged to actually get it out of the hives for them.

Leeching might be less visible than violent elitism but that is exactly what makes it even more toxic and dangerous.

Hum... all these things make me think about self-proclamed "good" players who play like sh** in raid or dungeon because they are overstuffed and make the whole party wipe because they forgot -to play- the mechanics.

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_What? Following the mechanics? I'm overstuffed and too good for that. You are just tooo bad to follow me. Just leave that game.
(When they don't even say "go kill yourself")
*Wipe*
*Kick the self-proclamed good player*
*Everything is going fine between bad players and... in a fast run, just following the mechnics without any kind if rush.*

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Some players should learn modesty. If they can't adjust their skill to the party (it is a MMO and we play in a party as a team) they are bad too (if not worst). That's all.


(I have other examples like this supposed bad dps who is in fact always focused by aoe and have do dodge, there are not all dps who can give their full content while dodging aoe. Or this one who got some kind of stunt by the boss and was not dispelled by the heal. The heal did the mistake but it is the dps who was criticized. Few players should spend less time watching dps meter or what other people are doing and focus on their own gameplay. They can missjudge, they are not perfect either. The most fun is when they spend so many time watching other gameplay they play like sh** because of a lack of focus).

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Originally Posted by Archaell

Ironically the good attitude might be exactly the main reason why "everything is allowed". Players don't have to fear that someone would harshly scold them and judge them while being correct in the judgement. That is a huge motivator when it comes to team based online games - trying your best to avoid being mocked.

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Poor you, having to deal with all these terrible, horrible people who might not be trying so jaw-clenchingly, palm-sweatingly hard as you clearly are at every moment you're life-or-death focused on this video game, while they have the temerity to have fun and not fear harassment.

Good heavens! You're a martyr to the cause.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Poor you, having to deal with all these terrible, horrible people who might not be trying so jaw-clenchingly, palm-sweatingly hard as you clearly are at every moment you're life-or-death focused on this video game, while they have the temerity to have fun and not fear harassment.

Good heavens! You're a martyr to the cause.

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-Doing more than 300 dps at i230- Takes a jaw clenching, palm sweating amount of effort. You heard it here folks!

Again, you're the sort who's acting as if the act of wanting the community's VERY minimum standard upped a bit is the equivalent of 80 hour raid weeks. Maybe if you'd actually try listening to the concern instead of bounding to Pluto in the extreme, we'd get somewhere beyond gross exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

Your analogy also breaks with Mr Spec Ops needing something that Farmer Joe needs for his Spec Op activities. Farmer Joe doesn't need X for his savage content, farmer Joe uses X for god knows why, Joe doesn't even DPS in dungeons. Mr Spec Ops has to run through multiple instances with multiple Farmer Joes daily just to continue being Mr Spec Ops.

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Because Spec Ops is more important. It all makes sense now, thank you for explaining this to me. But wait. If the number of Farmer Joes far exceeds the number of Spec Ops, and the reason this game is even still being offered as a service is because of the incredibly large amount of farmer joes and anything in between. Then... Who's more important again? I'm confused.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

-Doing more than 300 dps at i230- Takes a jaw clenching, palm sweating amount of effort. You heard it here folks!

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Still genuinely mystified that you keep running into these people. Really?

And if you do, is it causing that much pain in, hell, even normal-mode Nidhogg, Sephirot, or EX roulette? I've seen people lie dead through both the aforementioned trials (or flat-out abandon and we finish it with seven people) and no one seems to break a sweat.

I mean, maybe I've dealt with a million no-effort DPS and I barely even noticed because I'm not that mad at video games.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Because Spec Ops is more important. It all makes sense now, thank you for explaining this to me. But wait. If the number of Farmer Joes far exceeds the number of Spec Ops, and the reason this game is even still being offered as a service is because of the incredibly large amount of farmer joes and anything in between. Then... Who's more important again? I'm confused.

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And this is where your original analogy fails again. There's Spec Ops, Farmer Joes and regular Bobs. Regular Bobs are in between and strive to be either of the spectrum. The community should not advocate Farmer Joes, they should eradicate or segregate Farmer Joes.

Most players are Regular Bobs that have to put up with Farmer Joes and Spec Ops, which one do you want in your team?

Depends on attitude. Would take low end player with good attitude over bleeding edge raider with bad attitude.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Still genuinely mystified that you keep running into these people. Really?

And if you do, is it causing that much pain in, hell, even normal-mode Nidhogg, Sephirot, or EX roulette? I've seen people lie dead through both the aforementioned trials (or flat-out abandon and we finish it with seven people) and no one seems to break a sweat.

I mean, maybe I've dealt with a million no-effort DPS and I barely even noticed because I'm not that mad at video games.

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I run all my dailies, and I run into them fairly frequently. You're also implying that the people here who wish to see an improvement in the bottom line of the player base are infuriated, which is simply trying to undermine the discussion and dismantle it with a sharp tongue over a sharp mind. It's no secret that this has been a long running issue in the FF14 community, that there is a large population of bad players who are coddled into believing that even though you're playing with other people, that others don't matter. It's the populace of Elitist-Witchhunters that exaggerate and exacerbate this issue, when said "Elitists" do not seek every player to be the 1% regardless of what these naysayers think- they simply want to play with people who give a damn. If you don't give a damn, don't click roulette. If you do? Join up and accept constructive criticism without going to your safeplace.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Poor you, having to deal with all these terrible, horrible people who might not be trying so jaw-clenchingly, palm-sweatingly hard as you clearly are at every moment you're life-or-death focused on this video game, while they have the temerity to have fun and not fear harassment.

Good heavens! You're a martyr to the cause.

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We are playing a final fantasy game. Sometimes the warriors of darkness are needed to save the world.

If you like getting carried - fine with me. But do it with a group of like-minded players.

As I said many times mixing players with "different play-styles" is a bad idea and the best fix would be to separate them so that everyone could be happy.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

And this is where your original analogy fails again. There's Spec Ops, Farmer Joes and regular Bobs. Regular Bobs are in between and strive to be either of the spectrum. The community should not advocate Farmer Joes, they should eradicate or segregate Farmer Joes.

Most players are Regular Bobs that have to put up with Farmer Joes and Spec Ops, which one do you want in your team?

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My analogy fails? Regular bobs like myself do not necessarily strive to be either or. I'm solid where I am. In the Funzone. And that sides more or less with the Farmer Joe end of the spectrum than the Spec Ops. For some Odd reason, when I look at numbers and rotations with Dexterity potions and all that stuff that is set in stone it kills my boner. I don't know why. But you know what really gets me going? The dude with the LSD having a good time. I've never met your type of Farmer Joe. The kind who can't even dress themselves in the morning. I doubt they exist. I've never met them. The Farmer Joes and Regular bobs I play with can and do everything short of Savage. Not because we couldn't do it. But for various other reasons. And unfortunately for the Spec Ops we make up the majority of the population. We aren't below you. nor are we better than you.

Hitler segregated and eradicated people, His life turned out pretty good i hear!

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Hitler segregated and eradicated people, His life turned out pretty good i hear!

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

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Not the one who brought up segregating and eradicating people! It screamed setup.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Not the one who brought up segregating and eradicating people!

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No one said anything about eradicating people until you did. Instead, people are interested in getting people to improve, or to simply not be grouped with those who refuse to improve.

I had an M4 run last week on an alt for my Midan drop, healing as a WHM, and the other WHM wasnt helping with heals or raises. We eventually wiped due to too many dps dying and not making the dps check. The healer then went and was telling everyone what they should do, and I pointed out what the other WHM wasnt doing to help. They then said as we started they would watch and we would find out just how important they were to the group and proceeded to stand in the corner of the room and didnt move the entire fight. I solo healed and the summoner we had in the party helped with raising to keep my MP up.

Afterwards the WHM said thanks for the carry and exited. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

Not the one who brought up segregating and eradicating people!

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You did bring up Hitler who's IRL eradication is being compared to putting bads in one box and minimally acceptable in another. JS, the first one to toss Hitler into the mix tends to be the start of the end of civil discussion.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

And this is where your original analogy fails again. There's Spec Ops, Farmer Joes and regular Bobs. Regular Bobs are in between and strive to be either of the spectrum. The community should not advocate Farmer Joes, they should eradicate or segregate Farmer Joes.

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Ok, you're right, my bad. I did bring it up?

And yes Greedalox, it was extreme. maybe a bit much. I apologize.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

My analogy fails? Regular bobs like myself do not necessarily strive to be either or. I'm solid where I am. In the Funzone. And that sides more or less with the Farmer Joe end of the spectrum than the Spec Ops. For some Odd reason, when I look at numbers and rotations with Dexterity potions and all that stuff that is set in stone it kills my boner. I don't know why. But you know what really gets me going? The dude with the LSD having a good time. I've never met your type of Farmer Joe. The kind who can't even dress themselves in the morning. I doubt they exist. I've never met them. The Farmer Joes and Regular bobs I play with can and do everything short of Savage. Not because we couldn't do it. But for various other reasons. And unfortunately for the Spec Ops we make up the majority of the population. We aren't below you. nor are we better than you.

Hitler segregated and eradicated people, His life turned out pretty good i hear!

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Did Hitler also join an online game and play games with every single kind of individual possible in their spare time only to waste time with detrimental players? Comparing that is just plain nonsensical.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

It's no secret that this has been a long running issue in the FF14 community, that there is a large population of bad players who are coddled into believing that even though you're playing with other people, that others don't matter.

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In light of the fact that the difficulty of content will stay generally the same throughout this game's lifespan, by which I mean there'll be very difficult yet presumably rewarding (for the sense of shared accomplishment, if not just the gear rewards) endgame options, but all mandatory and some optional content is feasibly cleared even if some people have to be pretty much dragged by their ankles: Why are you passionate about this?

Why care so much about distracted, dozing, fat-fingered, easily panicked, clueless, or simply new people in content that doesn't really require them to be much better, when they don't even come close to infringing on your EX/savage-raiding space?

Bad players don't matter.

This is a video game. A hobby. It is not real life, where poor decisions and incompetence tend to have, y'know, consequences.

Should everyone be obligated to play this game "right" in order to obtain enjoyment from it?

There are certainly other MMOs that have openly catered to such "dedicated" mindsets. They were more common many years ago, before certain companies caught on to the fact that people don't appreciate substantial punishment for failure in their subscription product, which they expect to actually fulfill the description of "game", and whaddaya know, that means more subscribers, which Square-Enix has every interest in obtaining and retaining.

There will never be a high bar to entry.

The majority of content will always be accessible to the most people possible.

Square-Enix will do nothing to change this, because they know what kind of game this needs to be in order to sustain it.

Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to get back to my Dark Souls level 1 run. Ornstein & Smough can't touch this naked backflipping club-wielding zombie.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Bad players don't matter.

This is a video game. A hobby. It is not real life, where poor decisions and incompetence tend to have, y'know, consequences.

Square-Enix will do nothing to change this, because they know what kind of game this needs to be in order to sustain it.

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I find nothing wrong with this statement, but of course others are gonna argue that the game needs hardcore ranking systems and all that crap. It detracts from the enjoyment of the game, and parsers are already detracting from this because our community goes overboard.

Yes, people will have bad dps. Yes, we'll have shitty runs where the DRG doesnt maintain his Blood of the Dragon or the NIN that never uses huton. Yes, we'll have a tank that can't hold hate.

Am I going to hate them? No. Am I gonna be slightly upset with em? Sure, and I'll try to provide advice to improve their gameplay. I won't see a need to look down on them unless they're being an ass completely.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

Why care so much about distracted, dozing, fat-fingered, easily panicked, clueless, or simply new people in content that doesn't really require them to be much better, when they don't even come close to infringing on your EX/savage-raiding space?

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Please, join few parties in PF for the Nidhogg Ex. Kill parties, last phase training parties - does not matter. Join few and then report back how many times have you got to the last phase and how many casuals have you seen there.

Most of the players are entitled to clear Ex primals - and a lot of them bring in the "carry me now" attitude that they learn in DF.

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Originally Posted by Mahri

In light of the fact that the difficulty of content will stay generally the same throughout this game's lifespan, by which I mean there'll be very difficult yet presumably rewarding (for the sense of shared accomplishment, if not just the gear rewards) endgame options, but all mandatory and some optional content is feasibly cleared even if some people have to be pretty much dragged by their ankles: Why are you passionate about this?

Why care so much about distracted, dozing, fat-fingered, easily panicked, clueless, or simply new people in content that doesn't really require them to be much better, when they don't even come close to infringing on your EX/savage-raiding space?

Bad players don't matter.

This is a video game. A hobby. It is not real life, where poor decisions and incompetence tend to have, y'know, consequences.

Should everyone be obligated to play this game "right" in order to obtain enjoyment from it?

There are certainly other MMOs that have openly catered to such "dedicated" mindsets. They were more common many years ago, before certain companies caught on to the fact that people don't appreciate substantial punishment for failure in their subscription product, which they expect to actually fulfill the description of "game", and whaddaya know, that means more subscribers, which Square-Enix has every interest in obtaining and retaining.

There will never be a high bar to entry.

The majority of content will always be accessible to the most people possible.

Square-Enix will do nothing to change this, because they know what kind of game this needs to be in order to sustain it.

Now if you'll pardon me, I'm going to get back to my Dark Souls level 1 run. Ornstein & Smough can't touch this naked backflipping club-wielding zombie.

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I'm passionate about it because I'm passionate about the game and it's community.

I'm passionate about the bottom line because the only way the difficulty of this game will ever go up is if the average skill of the lowers goes up.

I care about the dozy, fat fingered clueless people because the game is a community, which is a large aspect of playing MMO's. No point in a community if you're only ever going to play with a select couple friends. If you don't seek community then I can't recommend a game like this. Bad players DO matter because they have the game by the crotch.

On the note of community, you're acting as if that fact this is a video game means that the individuals on the other end of the monitor don't matter and that poor decisions and incompetence don't have consequences, which really shows your level of empathy.

People should be obligated to try to improve. I've gone into detail why people who coddle create a game where being terrible is the norm.

"There will never be a high bar to entry" - I'm going to say this one fiiinal time. The people advocating a better bottom line are not trying to set the bar HIGH, just above terrible and incompetent.

In any situation where there is an interaction between people, it's pretty logical that if you want a positive interaction, you will do certain things.

The real life equivalent would be taking a shower, maybe using some antiperspirant, deodorant and/or cologne, and wearing some clean clothes when you go out. You could be the friendliest person out there but if you're dirty, smelling like garbage, and covered in sweat when rubbing up against someone on public transportation, you're going to test the limits of their civility. Why push them? And, if they do crack and tell you off, are you going to blame them?

The FF equivalent would be having appropriate gear, maybe with melds, researching the content and being practiced with your role. You could be the friendliest person out there but if you're under-geared, un-melded, totally oblivious to what is happening and bad at your role, you're going to create many potential points of conflict that could be avoided if you just put in the effort -- the same effort others have already put in. When things melt down, who is more to blame? The person whose lack of care planted and watered the seeds of conflict or the person who is merely reacting?

Being a part of a community is understanding that dynamic and the individual obligation you have to make sure things keep working. At this point, a lot of players are just sick of doing their part while others just don't care. The solution is not to just be nicer. The solution is that everyone should exercise some damn empathy.

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Originally Posted by MihaelB

And this is where your original analogy fails again. There's Spec Ops, Farmer Joes and regular Bobs. Regular Bobs are in between and strive to be either of the spectrum. The community should not advocate Farmer Joes, they should eradicate or segregate Farmer Joes.

Most players are Regular Bobs that have to put up with Farmer Joes and Spec Ops, which one do you want in your team?

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He said it.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

He said it.

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Oh, I see. Sorry about that then. I apparently missed most of the discussion about the Farmers.

the community shouldn't hugbox the people who can't be bothered to do the bare minimum.

people keep saying it's others being too elitist when it's really just people being too lazy to bother with improving their play or players who do know how to do well being sick n tired of running the same instance for the hundredth time. Spliscreen XIV, put on netflix and proceed spamming heavy shot all day. Plain, disgusting laziness.

No wonder people keep defending this trash, after all you can't get banned for "being bad"

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Originally Posted by Altena

Give us "trash" that is not truly "trash"...

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In CT1 we had between boss fights, that were no regular trash mobs. I really loved it. I would like to see more of fillers like this.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

As I said many times mixing players with "different play-styles" is a bad idea and the best fix would be to separate them so that everyone could be happy.

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But we HAVE content for the different playstyles and skill levels. Savage is made for the hardcore, challenge seeking players, and 4-mans are made for low gear/skill players. That's why so many people are arguing against this thread, because a hardcore player is going into entry level, easy-mode content and complains that people aren't playing well enough.

Duty finder is a tool that puts us together with strangers to give us easier access to dungeon runs, but we have the choice to bring our own people if we require a certain skill level. If you use the DF tool to enter content made for casuals and even bad players (4-mans), it's not fair to complain when you run into them there.