Please Remove the Materia Melding Crafter Restriction

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I've yet to see a compelling reason to keep it. Any reason I've seen is either a faulty Appeal to Tradition, ("It's always been this way, why change it?") or an incredible exaggeration overstating how essential, rewarding, or compelling clicking a confirm button is as a mechanic.

In the absence of a counter-argument, "because it's inconvenient" is reason enough.

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And this is exactly my point.

The materia melding system isn't broken in any way shape or form and functioning perfectly. Yes, it's a minor inconvenience at best. Why does it need to be removed then? Why waste the Dev's resources on it when they could be doing something else?

There isn't a compelling reason to really keep it, and in the very same token there isn't a compelling reason to NOT keep it either.

So, to the people who want to see the system changed - give a good reason why you want to see the system changed. It exists already, it does exactly what the dev's intended it to do, it's not broken at all. There's no real need to change it short of it being an inconvenience to a select player base.

If the side who supports this change can't get past this hurdle, then there is no reason for the Dev team to spend the resources necessary to make this change as the system is already implemented and functional without issue.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

This really doesn't address anything that I have said.

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It actually does, whether you choose to listen is your business. Protect, while not only making a difference in solo instances, is also taken off if someone dies, making it harder to recover from death in a raid environment.

You also don't NEED melds for any content period (except perhaps crafting and gathering ironically). Melds just make it slightly easier and give you an edge. The fights are designed so that you can clear with top tier raid gear without melds, melding only makes the fights more manageable, and rewards players for putting in the effort (lets bold that, it is a key word).

Now lets address your post:

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

That said, I am happy that there is a way to get someone else to do it for me, but I don't see why this is considered a good thing.

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if you scroll back a page or two (edit: now at the bottom of this post), you will see I answered this at length by saying that all classes depend on each other (it isn't necessarily about being social), and it is a system that promotes levelling all classes (note: promotes, not requires) in order to get the best out of the system, we have this system to keep crafting and gathering relevant, which is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

If you sacrifice yourself 18 slots of Tier V materia, that is a significant detriment to your character in a raid environment

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see above (superficial in that you don't need the bonus to clear the raids)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

In this sense, another alternative is to add a quality rating between being able to meld yourself or as a crafter. Perhaps it would be an OK compromise to have non-crafters be able to slot up to Tier IV themselves, but require a crafter for Tier V? I don't particularly like this as it keeps the restriction, but at least it makes it feel a bit less 'unnecessary'.

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So you are saying that we should complicate the system massively for... no benefit to the balance of the game as a whole? You also don't like the restriction, but all classes have restriction, that is what gives them relevance in a team based game.


We call what you are asking for homogenization, and the devs only do it when it is truly necessary. I.e. I will only ever support this when there is a situation where battle classes not having melding becomes a serious detriment to groups (like the homogenization of protect and stoneskin across healers).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Battle classes need crafters to meld (but request meld is a thing)
Battle classes need crafters to repair (though not really, repair NPC is a thing)
Battle classes need crafters to make gear (lol, no, im not even putting this)
Battle classes need crafters for.... glamour......

Crafters need gathering classes to function cost effectively
Crafters need battle classes to function cost effectively (LTW)
Crafters need battle classes for dungeon drops
Crafters need battle classes to even get into the expansion/do story content (thanks Sida for pointing that out)
Crafters need OTHER PLAYERS CRAFTERS for specialist (cant even level to get out of that one).

Gatherers need crafting classes for gear/bait.
Gatherers need crafting classes for melds (far more than battle classes)
Gatherers need battle classes to get into the expansion/do story content

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I'll just leave this here as a citation so that it is easier to understand

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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I appreciate the thoughtful response. Unfortunately I'm not out, and want to provide you with an equally thoughtful post. I'll edit this with a reply when I am home.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

And this is exactly my point.

The materia melding system isn't broken in any way shape or form and functioning perfectly. Yes, it's a minor inconvenience at best. Why does it need to be removed then? Why waste the Dev's resources on it when they could be doing something else?

There isn't a compelling reason to really keep it, and in the very same token there isn't a compelling reason to NOT keep it either.

So, to the people who want to see the system changed - give a good reason why you want to see the system changed. It exists already, it does exactly what the dev's intended it to do, it's not broken at all. There's no real need to change it short of it being an inconvenience to a select player base.

If the side who supports this change can't get past this hurdle, then there is no reason for the Dev team to spend the resources necessary to make this change as the system is already implemented and functional without issue.

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The amount of resources it would realistically take is an absolute pittance. As I've said before, it's evidently a toggle that only checks to see if you have a class at 60, and then un-grays a confirm button. You could make the same argument against literally any Quality of Life change to any class' mechanics. "Why make MCH procs show up more clearly other than 'it's inconvenient'? It's just wasting resources that could be spent on everyone else that doesn't play MCH."

Streamlining and removing inconvenience is an incredibly common reason for changes in MMORPGs. It's reason enough on it's own unless there's a compelling reason against it. (As in, the inconvenience is serving the gameplay in some manner.)

Oh it's inconvienient for me to level up a healer because I find it boring and I want to play healer in level 60 content. Just give me the level 60 healer.

You are asking that.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Oh it's inconvienient for me to level up a healer because I find it boring and I want to play healer in level 60 content. Just give me the level 60 healer.

You are asking that.

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Healers, well known for hitting only 1 button, as well as their ability to craft things in addition to their 1 button healing. /sarcasm

No, we're not.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

The amount of resources it would realistically take is an absolute pittance. As I've said before, it's evidently a toggle that only checks to see if you have a class at 60, and then un-grays a confirm button. You could make the same argument against literally any Quality of Life change to any class' mechanics. "Why make MCH procs show up more clearly other than 'it's inconvenient'? It's just wasting resources that could be spent on everyone else that doesn't play MCH."
)

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When you're removing a functionality of a class and making it available to everyone else, that's hardly comparable to a QoL change to a specific job, nevermind that the latter is a persistent, occurring gameplay function versus one that happens as often as you get a gear upgrade from 3.2 content

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Streamlining and removing inconvenience is an incredibly common reason for changes in MMORPGs. It's reason enough on it's own unless there's a compelling reason against it. (As in, the inconvenience is serving the gameplay in some manner.

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It's a line that needs to be threaded carefully. You don't want to streamline it so much that classes or specs within the same classes (which WoW unfortunately tapped into after catacylsm) that they lose their individuality in the long run.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

When you're removing a functionality of a class and making it available to everyone else, that's hardly comparable to a QoL change to a specific job, nevermind that the latter is a persistent, occurring gameplay function versus one that happens as often as you get a gear upgrade from 3.2 content


It's a line that needs to be threaded carefully. You don't want to streamline it so much that classes or specs within the same classes (which WoW unfortunately tapped into after catacylsm) that they lose their individuality in the long run.

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Were you against the removal of GraniteSkin? Making Stoneskin baseline for all healers? Were you upset that WHMs lost a very tangible benefit? Or were you relieved that there was one less inconvenience that only the WHM should be stone-skinning everyone since theirs was the best?

Calling a confirm button "gameplay" is a misnomer. It's a mechanic, but there's no interactivity to be had that can't be said the same of a random number generator.

And your second point is just slippery when applied to this situation.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

The amount of resources it would realistically take is an absolute pittance. As I've said before, it's evidently a toggle that only checks to see if you have a class at 60, and then un-grays a confirm button. You could make the same argument against literally any Quality of Life change to any class' mechanics. "Why make MCH procs show up more clearly other than 'it's inconvenient'? It's just wasting resources that could be spent on everyone else that doesn't play MCH."

Streamlining and removing inconvenience is an incredibly common reason for changes in MMORPGs. It's reason enough on it's own unless there's a compelling reason against it. (As in, the inconvenience is serving the gameplay in some manner.)

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I find this request is different from other requests because it does directly affect crafter's. Yes, even if the crafter does the meld for free, removing the step does change the way people interact in this game (even if that interaction is literally just a /sh and a "please click here"). Because of that, I personally do see the requested change as what you described as "an inconvenience that is serving the gameplay in some manner".

Time will tell if S-E agrees or disagrees.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

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You are muddying the waters. Whether or not this change is worth a developer's time is irrelevant. You could make the same argument for almost all quality of life type requests.

The definition of 'broken' as it pertains to a feature is subjective. You say it's not broken because it works as the developers intended. I say that it is flawed because much like the housing conundrum, I find the restrictions around melding to be too severe. Guess what? Housing also works as the developers intended. Perhaps that system should not be changed either.

This isn't even about whether or not people are willing to level crafting. This is about giving a wider amount of people access to a feature. A feature that has become more relevant with its addition to raid gear. Frankly, the system in place for melds now sucks. It needs to be changed or enhanced. How? I don't know. There have been a couple of good suggestions in the previous pages. However the most vocal of posters have chosen to ignore them, in favor of acting indignant that there should be a change to the sanctity of crafting.

Melds do not define crafting. Anyone pushing that is bullshitting you and/or themselves. Just sit back, take a deep breathe, and seriously think about it for a moment. If tomorrow SE gave Mutamix the ability to meld materia for X gil. How would that really impact Crafters?

There would be no impact. Crafting wouldn't suddenly be less alluring. There would not be a sudden decline of people leveling crafts.

If anything you'd see an increase in materia sales because more people would have easy access to melds and Mutamix would be one busy goblin.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Were you against the removal of GraniteSkin? Making Stoneskin baseline for all healers? Were you upset that WHMs lost a very tangible benefit? Or were you relieved that there was one less inconvenience that only the WHM should be stone-skinning everyone since theirs was the best?

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No. While it was a bit nessescary with the introduction of three healers (as well as the proshell change) so a WHM would not be the required healer for those benefits, they still receive a faster-cast version stoneskin in it's place that is still better than non-WHM ones so they'd have some form usable damage-shields during combat in the absence of a scholar and astro.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Calling a confirm button "gameplay" is a misnomer. It's a mechanic, but there's no interactivity to be had that can't be said the same of a random number generator.

And your second point is just slippery when applied to this situation.

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It's still a functionality of the game that's being taken away from a class to be given to everyone. And I can say the same thing with your suggestion when you want to remove leveling requirements for features like melding.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

No. While it was a bit nessescary with the introduction of three healers (as well as the proshell change) so a WHM would not be the required healer for those benefits, they still receive a faster-cast version stoneskin in it's place that is still better than non-WHM ones so they'd have some form usable damage-shields during combat in the absence of a scholar and astro.

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And I would make the same argument here. Now that Materia melding is available for all end-game gear (ostensibly required if you're raiding), it makes sense to alleviate the quirks and inconvenience of having to find someone else to meld your gear up. As I've said before, there are other benefits to crafting than just melding, there still are advantages to leveling crafting.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's still a functionality of the game that's being taken away from a class to be given to everyone. And I can say the same thing with your suggestion when you want to remove leveling requirements for features like melding.

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It's a functionality being made baseline, not being taken away from anything.

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Originally Posted by Slippery Slope

If an argument uses valid reasoning, it would not be identified as the slippery slope fallacy,and the term "slippery slope" may be used without a implying faulty argument. Non-fallacious usage acknowledges the possibility of a middle ground between the initial condition and the predicted result, while providing an inductive argument for the probability of that result versus a middle-ground one, usually based on observation of previous comparable circumstances.

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Further, I am not making a slippery slope of logic or suggestions here. As this mechanic has been made more common, it makes sense to allow easier access to it. I'm not making the argument or even suggesting that further changes to the system are being needed. In-fact considering the snails pace at which QoL changes roll through the patch notes, (Why, in all that is holy, does Ammo for MCH have a 30 second duration?) I don't think there's valid cause to worry.

I know i said I'd edit my last post, but I felt this was better as it would be more likely to be seen ;)

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

It actually does, whether you choose to listen is your business. Protect, while not only making a difference in solo instances, is also taken off if someone dies, making it harder to recover from death in a raid environment.

You also don't NEED melds for any content period (except perhaps crafting and gathering ironically). Melds just make it slightly easier and give you an edge. The fights are designed so that you can clear with top tier raid gear without melds, melding only makes the fights more manageable, and rewards players for putting in the effort (lets bold that, it is a key word).

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I may have not been clear. It responds to my post, but it doesn't address it. I didn't bring up protect to side-track the argument or create a new debate about whether protect was useful or not. I simply used it as an example of a proposed change that is likely to come from a person who is proposing this change. This is in direct contrast to the less logical suggestions of the poster I quoted.

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Add I want this item button to your face to get anything you want effortlessly?
Make retainers solo content for you?
Build a wall around yourself so you dont need to commune with anyone questioning your entitled status?

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None of these are suggestions that you would logically come from the same person as the OP. Protect is, because it comes down to the same essential stance - that it is an unnecessary burden. The other points the person I quoted suggest the stance of the op has the underlying implications that the OP is lazy and unsocial, when this may simply not be the case.

All of that said, I disagree with your and their argument about the validity of Protect. If you wish to continue this debate, I'd be more than happy to make a new thread on the topic of discussing Protect's usefulness.

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Now lets address your post:

if you scroll back a page or two (edit: now at the bottom of this post), you will see I answered this at length by saying that all classes depend on each other (it isn't necessarily about being social), and it is a system that promotes levelling all classes (note: promotes, not requires) in order to get the best out of the system, we have this system to keep crafting and gathering relevant, which is a good thing.

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I suppose I missed your post. Thank you for including it in your quote. This is definitely a valid reason for arguing that this stays. I'd argue that adding another avenue for people to meld their items in addition to crafters wouldn't negate crafters role. I'd also say that the role crafters play in melding is fairly insignificant. Raiders already rely in crafters for potions, food etc. From my perspective as a non-crafter, this seems like a more substantial value for crafters than the current melding system of "click to confirm".

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see above (superficial in that you don't need the bonus to clear the raids)

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Slotting the appropriate materia can mean the difference between hitting a 2% enrage and a clear. Also, having accuracy added to healers could mean a significant change in raid-wide DPS. I would say that materia slotting is definitely required, but I mean you could also say that nothing in this game is required. It's all a game. So this is really an argument that neither side can nor will win.

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So you are saying that we should complicate the system massively for... no benefit to the balance of the game as a whole? You also don't like the restriction, but all classes have restriction, that is what gives them relevance in a team based game.

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a few thoughts.

1. No, I am attempting to brainstorm ideas so that we can reach a compromise in which both sides are at least somewhat happy. As it is, one side is unhappy one side is happy and most solutions keep it that way. I am throwing out ideas in hopes that people will add on to them, tweak them, etc. so that we can brainstorm as a community to better everyone's enjoyment.

2. I think that complicating a system for the sake of complexity is bad. However, I think that adding complexity to a system with reason can be good. In the sense of my suggestion, the reason for the complexity is so that crafters continue to have a valuable role in melding, while adding a convenient avenue for those who cannot meld their gear (or find someone to) to be able to at least achieve something (tier IV).

3. I am not fully sure I understand your argument about the restriction. I dislike that there is a restriction that you need a WVR level 60 to meld a Tier V materia into a level 60 cloth item. I am not suggesting that no restrictions be put in place. I agree relevance in a team based game is great, but there is no team with melding materia. There is a crafter selecting confirm and that is it. If this was made into more of a team-based system where there was a mutual reliance on each other, then sure that would be better - but I can't think of a good way to implement that.

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We call what you are asking for homogenization, and the devs only do it when it is truly necessary. I.e. I will only ever support this when there is a situation where battle classes not having melding becomes a serious detriment to groups (like the homogenization of protect and stoneskin across healers).

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Believe me, I am very against homogenization. I think that a lot of the changes to battle classes in 3.x were horrible due to this very reason. I am not suggesting homogenization, I am suggesting that they remove a restriction of finding a crafter in order to meld my gear.

I've come up with a few suggestions on how to address this and would love some more discussion on their merits.

1. Create an NPC that charges X gil to meld materia (perhaps Tier X 10k, so 50k gil for Tier V, 40k for Tier IV or whatever)
2. Create a meld-kit that crafters can create and sell on the market board, which non crafters can purchase and then use as a one-time consumable to meld their gear
3. Create a system where Tier IV mater can be melded by anyone while Tier V materia requires a crafter

The purpose of these suggestions are to add a convenient avenue for people like the OP and I while retaining the value and credibility of crafters in the game.


I have a few other notes:
1. Melding is a fairly insignificant part of crafting, as I understand? I don't think most people level a crafter for the purpose of melding, do they? I could be wrong, but I thought the idea was to be able to create things. In which case, removing melding requirements shouldn't have a significant impact on crafters, and if they do then there is something bigger at play in terms of the game design and crafting.

2. Someone asked what good reason is there to remove this restriction? The reason that I can see is that it is a simple QoL change. This person argued that putting dev resources in to something is a waste, but in that sense so was adding an aetheryte to travel outside of Idyllshire. QoL adjustments happen all the time, and they don't always need to be because of this big game-breaking element. Sometimes it can be because something is inconvenient, and it could be made better.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

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I'll spend less time debating your point this time because I'd rather offer constructive solutions than destructive answers, but regardless I commend your well thought out response, and I can see from your opinion it makes sense. It makes a change from the cries of "I don't have crafter, I want this feature waaaa," who completely ignored my point of messing with the balance of the status quo.

I do want to clarify a few things though (we'll ignore the protect argument because it really is irrelevant):

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I'd argue that adding another avenue for people to meld their items in addition to crafters wouldn't negate crafters role

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Not completely, but it would affect game balance, the devs are trying desperately to make crafters relevant (specialist system, relic items, new 220 crafted gear), and making melding relevant has done a lot of good for making crafting relevant, that throwing that away is completely destructive to the system. Would it break crafting? probably not, but it is a counter-productive change.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Slotting the appropriate materia can mean the difference between hitting a 2% enrage and a clear. Also, having accuracy added to healers could mean a significant change in raid-wide DPS.

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This is fair, but this is a situation that is not dire, that can be remedied by getting better gear (hello lore gear), which you do not need a crafter for, or you can use that painfully simple feature of asking a crafter to meld your materia, it is one of their jobs, and it is not hard to ask. Yes, it takes effort, but it also took the crafter effort to level the job. I'll go back to my list of class limitations and show you that it really is the only thing that battle classes need crafters for, but crafters need gatherers and battle classes for much more, it really isn't hard to ask.

Ok now I'll offer a counter-list of constructive features:

1. Crafters network: a linkshell to help people find crafters in their server, rather than shouting in zones, you ask for a meld in the LS.
2. If not this, then promotion of a homemade melders/crafters network.
3. Find a crafter. Think of it like PF but specifically for crafters to find work, and for people to ask for a crafter.
4. Revamp the "novice network: crafters" as a separate thing, where you can go to a crafting mentor and feel safe that you won't get ripped off, and can get advice about starting crafting, or even just asking in the novice network if anyone can give you a meld (see this as an extension of 1.)

Or really any way to encourage communication between crafters and gatherers in the world would be a huge step forward with this issue. It would also help specialist crafters (or those that need them), and to bring gathering and crafting classes together. The solution here isn't to give classes new abilities, the solution is to make it easier for the classes to communicate.

I really wish you were on Hyperion, I would personally meld all your materia for free forever :P

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Were you against the removal of GraniteSkin? Making Stoneskin baseline for all healers? Were you upset that WHMs lost a very tangible benefit? Or were you relieved that there was one less inconvenience that only the WHM should be stone-skinning everyone since theirs was the best?

Calling a confirm button "gameplay" is a misnomer. It's a mechanic, but there's no interactivity to be had that can't be said the same of a random number generator.

And your second point is just slippery when applied to this situation.

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Yoshi P specifically stated that the strength of WHM new skills was balanced to compensate for WHMs losses and nerfs so that's not a fair comparison unless you are suggesting they give something to crafters to compensate for the loss of this perk which pretty much most of the advocates in this thread aren't. Your just asking for things to be taken away.

Further, though this isn't relevant to the quote, I've seen people mention 220 gear. This is stupid. Yes Crafters can make 220 gear IF they happen to be in the very best gear they can get, which is either heavily gated due to scrips and/or extremely expensive due to crafting RNG, the cost of the materials to make said gear and the amount of Materia lost in overmelding. Its the equivalent to telling someone in PvE who needs a weapons "oh you can get Midas 4 Savage weapons". I would say probably 90% of people with a crafter levelled, if not more, cant infact make 220 gear. And that's not even taking into account the limitations caused by the specialist system.

I do see and understand the need for non crafters to meld gear easily and not be heavily dependent on crafters. They should have another option. However Melding should be less convenient/cheap for them because crafters should get compensated for their efforts in levelling and gearing.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I do see and understand the need for non crafters to meld gear easily and not be heavily dependent on crafters. They should have another option. However Melding should be less convenient/cheap for them because crafters should get compensated for their efforts in levelling and gearing.

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I agree, and I think we can make this compromise. For example, leveling crafters you can repair your gear further than 100% and do it often more cheaply than the NPC menders. So if there was an NPC materia melder, let it offer its services at a premium (5k for a meld, etc) and at a lower success rate, like 10% or so, than crafters can do. This would allow crafters to retain the best ability to meld and still receive requests while allowing people who don't want to bother other people their own to slot their equipment.

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Originally Posted by Parodine

5k for a meld,

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5k seems far too low imo, 50k seems more reasonable and would actually work as a gil sink, which this game needs tbh.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

5k seems far too low imo, 50k seems more reasonable and would actually work as a gil sink, which this game needs tbh.

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While I like the idea of a decently costly alternative means to melding, I think it's worth noting that if it's too expensive, it won't have the intended effect.

If it costs 50k to get a vendor to do it, people are almost always just going to find someone to do it for them. And if the NPC's going price is 50k, I think a lot of crafters are going to find it pretty easy to ask for a charge of 5k per meld, wouldn't you?

I think 5k is a decent point if they were to modify the system in such a way.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

While I like the idea of a decently costly alternative means to melding, I think it's worth noting that if it's too expensive, it won't have the intended effect.

If it costs 50k to get a vendor to do it, people are almost always just going to find someone to do it for them. And if the NPC's going price is 50k, I think a lot of crafters are going to find it pretty easy to ask for a charge of 5k per meld, wouldn't you?

I think 5k is a decent point if they were to modify the system in such a way.

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No matter what cost the npc charges I (and like 99% of crafters) will continue doing melds for free.

While 50k may be too high I still feel 5k is too low.

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Originally Posted by Parodine

I agree, and I think we can make this compromise. For example, leveling crafters you can repair your gear further than 100% and do it often more cheaply than the NPC menders. So if there was an NPC materia melder, let it offer its services at a premium (5k for a meld, etc) and at a lower success rate, like 10% or so, than crafters can do. This would allow crafters to retain the best ability to meld and still receive requests while allowing people who don't want to bother other people their own to slot their equipment.

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I think such NPC should have
- 60% chance of success
- no fee but the usual catalyst requirement
- no advanced melding option.

Then there would still be a perk to find another player to do it. I see a lot of people suggesting that advanced melding is enough of perk for crafters but those people probably have no intention to advance meld their mostly non-crafted gear lol. So not much of a perk on it's own. A lower success chance on NPCs would actually keep finding a crafter a tempting option. This is an MMO and we don't need any more cutting of player interaction in the era of Duty Finder and solo questing. Encouraging co-operation between fighters, gatherers and crafters is the right game direction imo. Now if only there were more things that gatherers could offer to fighters and vice versa the system would be even better. Diadem showed they want nothing to do with each other at point in time.

I got my crafters to 50 to be able to do all my own repairs and that was such a CHORE! I just decided today to start melding my gear and after paying a ton for grade 4 carbonised matter cause I don't have gatherers levelled I saw the message "requires level 60 goldsmith" -____- sold the carbonised matter, sold the materia, took a shower because seeing that message made me feel dirty...

I'd maybe be ok with it if they made it 1 crafter to 60 to meld anything or stopped the crafting requirement at 50 like with repairs, but having to get all my crafts to 60? Just no... Crafting should remain just that, crafting, making the gear that we meld the materia to.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

that was such a CHORE!

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lol...
/10char

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

effort (lets bold that, it is a key word).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

[CHORE -> effort]

lol...
/10char

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Correct my understanding if I'm mistaken, but, if a given "effort" feels in almost no way satisfying but merely necessary or otherwise punitive, isn't the term "chore" equally applicable?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

So you are saying that we should complicate the system massively for... no benefit to the balance of the game as a whole? You also don't like the restriction, but all classes have restriction, that is what gives them relevance in a team based game.

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Technically speaking, the balance of the game shifted already with the addition of traditional materia slots to non-crafted gear. For the balance itself not to have been changed or additionally complicated with this patch, the materia slots added would have needed to be of a different type that requires no crafter, a minuscule design addition, but one that allows the faint stat customization SE apparently wanted to add without adjusting that balance. If you are of the opinion that crafters need more required presence throughout the game (the ability to jump straight into i220 gear, generate large amounts of money, self-over-repair, craft glamor gear and housing items, and bind materia to crafted gear somehow far too lacking) then perhaps this shift in balance was for the better to you, but it was nonetheless a shift. The requests not to require a crafter for non-crafted gear melds merely maintain the balance that has existed until this patch (while requests to allow binding of materia by oneself--without a crafter--to all but advanced melds would inadvertently shift the balance in the opposite direction).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Couldn't you say the same about leveling any class in the game in order to do end game content? (btw scroll back to page 29 to see the context of the quote). Also, I may have misquoted in that it was directed at the overall tone of the post, rather than specific words :)

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Fair enough. I do at least feel like the jobs come out feeling different enough from each other though, rather than the 'gotta catch'em all' of cross-class 15/50 crafter skills. Perhaps that's why I gave up on leveling all crafts on this char, in hopes that one day the system might actually be intrinsically interesting or enjoyable, but nearly had full 50s combat classes on both at that same time. Somehow the first seemed a chore to me, the second a mostly enjoyable effort. I can see why it'd be flipped for others though.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Correct my understanding if I'm mistaken, but, if a given "effort" feels in almost no way satisfying but merely necessary or otherwise punitive, isn't the term "chore" equally applicable?

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Couldn't you say the same about levelling any class in the game in order to do end game content? (btw scroll back to page 29 to see the context of the quote). Also, I may have misquoted in that it was directed at the overall tone of the post, rather than specific words :)

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I got my crafters to 50 to be able to do all my own repairs and that was such a CHORE!

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You can buy exp with gil

crafting in this game is the most boring thing ever....hell even FFXI was more fun , breaking crystals and losing mats.....sucked but if i leveled woodworking i didnt need to level weaver .....plus with arrowheads and buying wood from npc i could use it to create my own arrows for days.... 33 arrows every arrowhead...(66 or 99 if HQ or HQ2)

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Originally Posted by Evangela

It never made sense. Cloud and other FFVII characters never needed a specialist to put some balls in the holes.

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( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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Originally Posted by Duelle

You're still time-gated because of how leve allowances work. My point thus still stands.

I will grant you that battle leves have been made inefficient enough that it's just better to use allowances for local leves (one of the many gripes I have with what they've done to guild leves but that's for another day).

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I still see it as a weak point. Time gating isn't new in mmos and really what else are you going to use leves for anyway? Almost willing to bet that you have 100 allowances atm that you don't even use. That's 4 or 5 level 60 crafts right there (if they are at 50).

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I got my crafters to 50 to be able to do all my own repairs and that was such a CHORE! I just decided today to start melding my gear and after paying a ton for grade 4 carbonised matter cause I don't have gatherers levelled I saw the message "requires level 60 goldsmith" -____- sold the carbonised matter, sold the materia, took a shower because seeing that message made me feel dirty...

I'd maybe be ok with it if they made it 1 crafter to 60 to meld anything or stopped the crafting requirement at 50 like with repairs, but having to get all my crafts to 60? Just no... Crafting should remain just that, crafting, making the gear that we meld the materia to.

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You don't need all of them though.

Just getting goldsmith, leatherworker and weaver (or armorer instead of weaver if a tank/dragoon) will cover 90% of your gear.

Also it seems you apparently have a very low tolerance for leveling because getting crafts to 50 is super easy and doesn't take any time at all unless you run out of leves (which in that case, you can just wait a week for more).

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

crafting in this game is the most boring thing ever....hell even FFXI was more fun , breaking crystals and losing mats.....sucked but if i leveled woodworking i didnt need to level weaver .....plus with arrowheads and buying wood from npc i could use it to create my own arrows for days.... 33 arrows every arrowhead...(66 or 99 if HQ or HQ2)

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This isn't FFXI and this crafting system is better anyway.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I've yet to see a compelling reason to keep it. Any reason I've seen is either a faulty Appeal to Tradition, ("It's always been this way, why change it?") or an incredible exaggeration overstating how essential, rewarding, or compelling clicking a confirm button is as a mechanic.

In the absence of a counter-argument, "because it's inconvenient" is reason enough.

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You keep wanting a counter-argument? Fine, here's one. For crafters that have been on this game for a loooong time (personally, since 1.0 beta), arguments like yours (it's just a small change guys, what's the big deal?) have utterly crippled crafting. Here's a timeline showing how.

1.0: The absolute, best quality gear crafters could make was actually on par with what was BiS at the time (at least for a while). Crafted gear was extremely relevant, but not required; you could choose what 'path' you wanted, gear wise, each with benefits and downsides. Later on in 1.0's lifespan, the dev team introduced a really, REALLY cool concept; Hamlet Defense. This particular instance incorporated not only the battle classes, but DoL and DoH as well in a battle! The DoH had to produce quality equipment for the npcs that helped the players defend the outpost; the more and better quality provided, the better the npcs would fare. However, the beastmen knew this and thus DoH had to be defended. It was an amazing idea! But....but it had crafters....in a battle! How dare those filthy crafters move from their crafting corner and sully the battle classes! 2.0 remedied this, and Hamlet Defense died.

2.0: So, remember how top-tier crafted gear was equal to BiS gear in 1.0? Well that made crafters seem too relevant, so we'll drop them down 10 levels below BiS (15 for weapons, if I remember correctly). I mean, it's only 10 ilevels right, what's the big deal? And then the dev team revealed their true intentions for crafters; the glamour system! Seemed awesome, and is awesome at times....but it foreshadowed what would happen. Still, 10 ilvls under BiS was still relevant, if not ideal, so crafters trudged on. Over the course of 2.0, SE set a precedent; if you wanted to be a relevant crafter at all, you'll have to devote all your time, soul, and gil to it (crafting 'relics', anyone?), to make gear that would still be sub-optimal. Crafters weathered through it.

3.0: The scene for crafters gets worse. Right from the start, the best gear crafters could make was not 10, not 15, but 20 levels below BiS. 20. Just another small change right, it's only 5 ilvls difference from last time! Then a little later, SE introduced scrips. Now, on top of crafted gear being laughably below BiS, it was also heavily gated. Then 3.1 hits, and....best crafted gear is now 25 ilvls below BiS. Once again, it's only a little change right? It's only 5 ilvls! Oh, and did I mention that SE has already fully implemented their future plans for crafting on one of the classes? Remember Blacksmiths? Remember the last time Blacksmith had any relevant gear they could make? I do, it was approximately a year ago, with Wootz weapons. A year. Blacksmith is now officially a glamour class; it should be GLM, not BSM.

So no, Cosmic, "because it's inconvenient" is NOT reason enough. It's another 'just a small change, what can it hurt!' Guess what? Enough small changes make for MASSIVE changes over time. That is why we are so against this. Crafters are slowly, but surely being rendered irrelevant by comments like yours.

I'm not even sure what the big problem is. I only began playing towards the end of last Summer and I already have all gathering/crafting classes unlocked. I slowly leveled them all at once through grand company turn-ins. It took me like 4 months to cap them all (and I took a two week break after I hit the stat wall that was Heavensward gathering/crafting until I figured out how to proceed), but I kept at it in a steady pace that only took like an hour every day. I didn't break my bank along the way either, if anything I made tons of gil in the process just selling spare materials. I started at like 400k and ended up with about 8 mil by the time I capped all my crafters.

I did think crafting sucked at first, until I learned you could cross class crafter actions. It became incredibly easy to level from then on, since grand company and leve turn-ins double EXP for HQ items.

I never leveled my craft/gather classes to make gil. I only leveled them to become self-sufficient and to help others. At the very least, I'm thankful that crafter stats have no bearing on the success rate of overmelding, so pretty much anyone can walk up to me and request a meld for free.

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Originally Posted by Aarik

You keep wanting a counter-argument? Fine, here's one. For crafters that have been on this game for a loooong time (personally, since 1.0 beta), arguments like yours (it's just a small change guys, what's the big deal?) have utterly crippled crafting. Here's a timeline showing how.

1.0: The absolute, best quality gear crafters could make was actually on par with what was BiS at the time (at least for a while). Crafted gear was extremely relevant, but not required; you could choose what 'path' you wanted, gear wise, each with benefits and downsides. Later on in 1.0's lifespan, the dev team introduced a really, REALLY cool concept; Hamlet Defense. This particular instance incorporated not only the battle classes, but DoL and DoH as well in a battle! The DoH had to produce quality equipment for the npcs that helped the players defend the outpost; the more and better quality provided, the better the npcs would fare. However, the beastmen knew this and thus DoH had to be defended. It was an amazing idea! But....but it had crafters....in a battle! How dare those filthy crafters move from their crafting corner and sully the battle classes! 2.0 remedied this, and Hamlet Defense died.

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Hamlet defense was a poor system because of the reward structure. Did you forget that unless you were in the top (...I want to say) 10 contributors, you didn't get anything?

A 4/8-man instance or scenario fight where crafters joining on their own (as in separate from the party queuing up for the fight) would make things easier/smoother would work. Just not with the reward structure of Hamlet Defense. Frankly, the reward structure killed it for me and I was happy to see that iteration of Hamlet Defense die.

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2.0: So, remember how top-tier crafted gear was equal to BiS gear in 1.0? Well that made crafters seem too relevant, so we'll drop them down 10 levels below BiS (15 for weapons, if I remember correctly). I mean, it's only 10 ilevels right, what's the big deal? And then the dev team revealed their true intentions for crafters; the glamour system! Seemed awesome, and is awesome at times....but it foreshadowed what would happen. Still, 10 ilvls under BiS was still relevant, if not ideal, so crafters trudged on. Over the course of 2.0, SE set a precedent; if you wanted to be a relevant crafter at all, you'll have to devote all your time, soul, and gil to it (crafting 'relics', anyone?), to make gear that would still be sub-optimal. Crafters weathered through it.

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The problem here was really the structure of gear acquisition. It would've been one thing to have crafters be part of the entry-level process for first, second and third coil.

For example (I'm throwing numbers here because I honestly don't remember), if first coil was tuned around a raid decked out in ilvl80 gear at the start, the crafted gear should be ilvl80 to go along with dungeon/trial rewards of that same ilvl, with maybe one or two pieces itemized in such a way to meet acc caps or maybe with extra crit or something to give a slight edge while still being quickly replaced by raid drops.

I don't think any of us counted on tomestone gear fully replacing crafted gear AND becoming the mainstay of progression. Relics also messed things up.

You mention dedicating yourself fully to crafting, and you're right. This was most likely done because crafting in this game is a) its own set of classes with EXP and levels and everything and b) designed as a minigame instead of something you click and let happen. Those factors add yet another layer to this mess because unlike other MMOs that simply add new recipes, put maybe one or 2 ingredients in raids or on cooldown timers and just not change anything else about crafting, the devs in FFXIV have to provide gear and things with more difficulty because they know you and others would complain if 1-star difficulty had been the ceiling for crafts in ARR.

Combine all that with one of the key parts of the problem -which for some reason no one likes to address-, the fact one person can level every craft, and you have a recipe for disaster. Player dynamics would have played out differently, not to mention that SE wouldn't have to scramble so much to make crafters relevant if they had limited the number of crafts a player can level.

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3.0: The scene for crafters gets worse. Right from the start, the best gear crafters could make was not 10, not 15, but 20 levels below BiS. 20. Just another small change right, it's only 5 ilvls difference from last time! Then a little later, SE introduced scrips. Now, on top of crafted gear being laughably below BiS, it was also heavily gated. Then 3.1 hits, and....best crafted gear is now 25 ilvls below BiS. Once again, it's only a little change right? It's only 5 ilvls! Oh, and did I mention that SE has already fully implemented their future plans for crafting on one of the classes? Remember Blacksmiths? Remember the last time Blacksmith had any relevant gear they could make? I do, it was approximately a year ago, with Wootz weapons. A year. Blacksmith is now officially a glamour class; it should be GLM, not BSM.

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Read the above. Also, the inclusion of scripts didn't really do much aside from sticking to that whole idea of crafting being its own endgame. Which doesn't really amount to much in the end.

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So no, Cosmic, "because it's inconvenient" is NOT reason enough. It's another 'just a small change, what can it hurt!' Guess what? Enough small changes make for MASSIVE changes over time. That is why we are so against this. Crafters are slowly, but surely being rendered irrelevant by comments like yours.

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Actually, is reason enough. Your issues have nothing to do with materia melding and more with where crafting stands in the grand scheme of gear acquisition and progression, along with the approach SE has taken to crafts. If anything, you and every crafter that is wanting to be relevant should be clamoring for SE to fix the system in place. I can even give you a basic idea of what could work without pissing the battle classes off too much:

1) Dungeon gear and crafting gear should be equal ilvl, with tomestone gear acting as filler but not being able to completely replace the other two.
2) Materials shouldn't be stupidly rare but can be timed or delayed if extremely valuable.
3) Tomestone, dungeon and crafted gear combined should prepare someone for raid entry (too bad we don't have an -in-between tier like WoW does with heroic dungeons), where the gear gets replaced as you get the raid on farm.
4) Upon the arrival of a new patch, give crafters catch-up gear while allowing new dungeon drops and tomestone gear to help prepare players for the next raid, and so the cycle repeats.

The reason I wouldn't want ingredients to be rare is because this way crafters aren't forced to super inflate prices, which in turn screws over battle classes. As someone of the latter, I've yet to see myself with more than 3 million gil, and would be adverse to paying crazy amounts of gil for crafted gear. At least in WoW I could spam dailies and after a while get enough (how I bought my Titansteel Destroyer back in WotLK), but we don't have even that here.

I'll be honest as a Omnicrafter I really do not care if others can go to an NPC to meld or not.

What I do care about is what those without crafters leveled have to do to use said NPC.

While melding is a small part of leveling crafters I still feel that it shouldn't be free to those who wish to either not level crafts or not interact with crafters.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Actually, is reason enough. Your issues have nothing to do with materia melding and more with where crafting stands in the grand scheme of gear acquisition and progression, along with the approach SE has taken to crafts. If anything, you and every crafter that is wanting to be relevant should be clamoring for SE to fix the system in place. I can even give you a basic idea of what could work without pissing the battle classes off too much:

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I was away for most of the day, and was going to respond once I got to my computer, but I feel that this is a more than sufficient response. Aarik's post is more reflective of an impassioned diversion you'd hear from a politician than any actual argument for the defense of the mechanic itself.
The argument that is there, is one for making crafters feel 'relevant'. I would agree that this can and should be done in a much better way.
I most thoroughly disagree with the idea that Materia Melding is keeping crafters relevant as is, is a good way to give them relevance, and that it is a compelling enough mechanic to justify its own existing set of rules and restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

crafting in this game is the most boring thing ever....hell even FFXI was more fun , breaking crystals and losing mats.....sucked but if i leveled woodworking i didnt need to level weaver .....plus with arrowheads and buying wood from npc i could use it to create my own arrows for days.... 33 arrows every arrowhead...(66 or 99 if HQ or HQ2)

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I hated crafting in FFXI. don't like the fact that leveling crafts in FFXI is strictly RNg, and it gets worse as you get higher.

I have all my crafts leveled but honestly it is becoming a huge problem with the game. Since all tome and raid gear has materia slots a lot of people I would say around 9/10 are leaving them all empty. Honestly in other games where they have a similar system it never required a craft to slot gems. SE really does need to put in an npc that does materia melding just like they put in a npc that does repairs. I believe this would reduce the number of people who are not using materia.

Just let them have their way, crafting has been on a downward spiral since 2.0... HW brought it back for a short time but then it continued the spiral. Specializations killed it for some people. Absurd craftsmanship and control requirements kills new crafting content for most of the ones that still try. By the time they are able, the gear they wanted to craft and use is probably no longer relevant. Hardcore raiders dont like strong crafting equipment. Casuals dont like crafting period and just want entitlements, even raiders are this way sometimes.
Meanwhile midcores, people just playing the game without complaining, and people who like crafting are getting the short end of the stick or just hoping they can keep enjoying it tomorrow.
TL-DR crafting is mostly already useless cause of the non crafting community so making it a bit more usless isnt that big a deal at this point.

I personally levelled all my crafters for 3 reasons; to craft, to meld my own gear and to repair on the fly.

Honestly, if an npc could offer melding, it's no skin off my nose at all! Such a minor part of crafting unless you're one who likes to sell fully melded gear for a huge amount on the mb.

Currently I spend time when I can with a PF up offering free (no tip required) melds to those who need it, as not everyone knows someone who can meld or feels comfortable just shouting for help.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

SE really does need to put in an npc that does materia melding just like they put in a npc that does repairs. I believe this would reduce the number of people who are not using materia.

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If you want everyone to use the materia slots, two changes are needed:
- Grade IV materia for esoteric tomes
- NPC that melds

Otherwise, there will always be people who don't bother melding because they have to go out of their way, especially now for interim gear (Materia doesn't carry over when things get upgraded, so Machi matter is stockpiled).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Correct my understanding if I'm mistaken, but, if a given "effort" feels in almost no way satisfying but merely necessary or otherwise punitive, isn't the term "chore" equally applicable?

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Im just curious but how can money printing be chore? i earned 30mil when i leveled all crafts from 50 to 60, if anything it was super enjoyable to take 1mil+ everyday from retainers.

This is sort of off topic....but I see some fairly long posts in here. How do I overcome the 1000 character limit? This limit has been giving me fits when trying to craft thoughtful replies to what people are saying.