New glamour dress on a male (art)

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

I just want to pipe up and say ALL clothes are unisex. Its society that chooses and labels what gender fits into what. This isn't even about being transgender lol.

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I disagree.
It would be really uncomfortable to wear a bra and thong bikini as a man. It's only unisex if it actually fits the body's proportions.
A t-shirt is generally unisex, but many jeans are not because they're designed for specific types of proportions. Namely...the tight ones for women are not designed with the man's equipment in mind.
Society may have its say into it, but basic tailoring, physics, and biology apply as well. There will always be specific fits and appearances that work for one gender but not the other.

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Originally Posted by Pomelo

I don't know if I already posted this but all races and all genders in Lord of the Rings Online can crossdress and one would think that Middle Earth would be more strict about things than here? XD

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American game (based on material by a British author but whatever)
You can also crossdress in World of Warcraft with certain armor pieces. That's another American game.
Those are kind of the exception that makes the rule, though. A LOT of games with surprisingly deep character customization such as Champion's Online don't allow crossdressing either (just like here, all or most of their "skirts" available for males are either related to magic casting, priesthood, or kilts)
Sooo...it's really hit or miss, y'know?

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Originally Posted by Radacci

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You linked men who look purposely bad in dresses for comedic value (With the exception of the first one, in which the guy, the girl's dad iirc, was wanting to make the little girl feel more comfortable wearing the princess outfit in public). The OP made a wonderful example of making the dress work on the male figure and their Elezen and I'm sure they could do it again (With the exception of maybe Roegadyn men, but hardly anything looks good on them unless if you like that sort of thing) and someone linked male bellydancer wear and again, it looks fine. If the OP can do it, why can't SE?

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

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And how do you suppose they add a "Turn off men in dresses" switch to the UI? As Eidolon pointed out, people don't like some folks in some outfits, where's my "Turn off guys playing as girl Miqo'te tanking in a bikini" option? Fantasia isn't a solid answer either, as someone pointed out "Fantasia to being a male PC" wasn't a valid response to those who use a female PC and wanted the gambler's set or the best man's set, so why is it here?

There's already options for men to wear skirts (Also, keep in mind last year's christmas set is also a dress) and silly outfits (Moogle set, most of the holiday's sets) so why the arbitrary cut off point with these options?

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Originally Posted by kyuven

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And? SE ought to be above that sort of silly things. Considering I doubt same-sex marriage has 100% support in Japan, yet SE added it (Albeit under a different name)
Subcultures form from more than just counterculture, more so they are different from the norm, not that their interests aren't inline with mainstream culture and so they form communities. Yes there's rebels who do those things because they defy mainstream culture, but most of those are doing it because it's their personal interests, as rebelling to be different doesn't tend to last long. The OP plays a male PC and spent the time to make the dress work, I'm sure they're not the only one.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

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You linked a girl who cosplayed to the point where they weren't just wearing Jack's outfit, but to look completely like jack. "fem" clothes are designed to cover breasts and otherwise emphasize the body while still maintaining hidden allure, which is totally possible with male figures, it just takes a little work. You know lots of cisgender women have similar body shapes to guys right? Heck the girl Roegadyn don't have a particularly feminine fugure, but the gear is still made to fit them.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

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It's not exactly comfortable to wear a unfitted bra and thong for women. Whenever a bra is properly fitted (As it would be for male PCs) and you can deal with the constant wedgey a thong gives you, it's pretty manageable. Dudes wear skinny jeans all the time though.
It's more along the lines of "There will be specific fits and appearances that work for one body shape and not others", some pants are too small for the general person, so a company makes them larger, not too different in this.

Again, SE has options for men to crossdress already in the game, skirts and the christmas set (Which consisted of stockings and a dress), so they're effectively just arbitrarily decided not to make models for men to wear "female" clothes.

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Originally Posted by Eul

You can look at JP games like Akiba's Trip. They support crossdressing so male can become maid, schoolgirl, or anything (but you can't crossdress underwear LOL). They even gives fanservice of stripped male character too.

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Lol yes true but that game is 100% goofy and made for anime fanservice ff on the other hand is not

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Lol yes true but that game is 100% goofy and made for anime fanservice ff on the other hand is not

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This game, filled with massive amounts of references and is literally made with the devs saying "We want the fan's say to be important", is very much so fan service.

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

And? SE ought to be above that sort of silly things. Considering I doubt same-sex marriage has 100% support in Japan, yet SE added it (Albeit under a different name)
Subcultures form from more than just counterculture, more so they are different from the norm, not that their interests aren't inline with mainstream culture and so they form communities. Yes there's rebels who do those things because they defy mainstream culture, but most of those are doing it because it's their personal interests, as rebelling to be different doesn't tend to last long. The OP plays a male PC and spent the time to make the dress work, I'm sure they're not the only one.

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SE added it due to pressures over the issue from many different fronts, but had to go so far as to make absolutely sure it wasn't actually called "marriage." They even went so far as to have the moogle say he has no legal standing. This is the type of approach they MUST take towards issues like this. Sure it would be nice if they'd be "progressive," but their stockholders probably aren't, and "there's no such thing as bad publicity" is not really true when it comes to Japan.
To put that in perspective, there was a teenage pop star member of a very large group of other singers. She, like most teenage girls, started seeing a boy. Normal, right? Perfectly acceptable in our culture? Yeah, not so much in Japan. Their pop stars are expected to be "pure," and to not date at all. Being caught on a date with someone is basically career suicide.
She was so humiliated by the event, that she shaved her hair off and quit the group as "penance," but it didn't matter. There were death threats being sent to her on a regular basis. Oh, and she would've lost her job anyway since every last one of these girls is contractually forbidden from dating.
All this because she was doing something every single teenage popstar we have in the U.S. is pretty much ENCOURAGED to do by the tabloid media.
Can you imagine what would've happened if she had come out as transgender?

You're right. People who do it to be "counter" often drift away after a time. Which is precisely the point. See, Japan is pretty okay on the subject of homosexual relationships...but popular tradition and belief is that you "grow out of it," start a family, and start making babies (a stance that sadly has some justification these days as not enough people are producing children in Japan). Subcultures are the same way.
People who participate in things like Visual Kei and aren't making money directly from it have every expectation from those around them that their infatuation is a "phase" and they'll get over it. They're expected to, despite dressing like a a gothic victorian woman during college (the primary time in a Japanese person's life when they're allowed to participate in these sorts of things without much reprimand.) be dressing like a businessman by the time they're 21.
Now this is, of course, not always true. But since being a part of society, of "The Group," is such a huge thing, those who deviate are ostracized.
It gets to the weird point where people who actually DO make money off these things use stage names so their family isn't ashamed of them (seriously trying to find a non-politician in the public eye in Japan that isn't at the very least using different kanji for their name is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. AGAIN, not impossible, but not actively encouraged.)

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

Again, SE has options for men to crossdress already in the game, skirts and the christmas set (Which consisted of stockings and a dress), so they're effectively just arbitrarily decided not to make models for men to wear "female" clothes.

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The christmas one isn't exactly "feminine," it's basically an elf outfit, "fey" (cuz, y'know, elves) but not completely feminine.
Which goes for all of the "cross dressing" options. They're designed for males and carry the "mystical" aesthetic to them, without being COMPLETELY feminine. As an example, the Evenstar outfits are nearly identical, but the male version doesn't have the feminine cleavage window, frilled skirt, and fishnets.
The scylla set? It's a robe, and fairly unisex really.
The skirt? Considering most people I've seen use it use it for things like the yukata or certain armor sets...and yeah a simple cloth skirt like that is NOT inherently feminine or masculine. It's when you start cutting it differently and/or adding accessories that it gains its masculine or feminine features.
Here's what i mean:
http://www.scottishtradingcompany.co...ini%20kilt.JPG
http://www.galicianshop.com/pictures...LT-GALFSET.jpg
You don't look at the guy and say "that's feminine," since he's clearly not.
By the same token, you don't look at the girl and say "that's masculine."
This is because, despite wearing the same basic skirt, they're cut differently and accessorized in such a way that they gain masculine or feminine traits.
Since the Spring Skirt has no frills whatsoever to it, it falls under legitimately unisex.

And I stand by my "Not all clothing is unisex" stance because having different fits and cuts can and will automatically make certain articles of clothing into DIFFERENT articles. "Slim jeans" are generic, but there is a large difference between cuts for men and women to the point they have different names. As an example, if you cut a shirt one way, it become's a "Men's dress shirt." Take the exact same material and cut it a slightly different way, and it's fitted as a "woman's blouse." This has nothing to do with the design or any "societal norms." One simply fits better for one gender than the other. And if you try to take a woman's blouse and make it fit a man, it immediately becomes a "men's dress shirt" again

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

This game, filled with massive amounts of references and is literally made with the devs saying "We want the fan's say to be important", is very much so fan service.

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Whats your point? you want so you expect then to give? sure i guess we can ask for anything we want but others also have the right to say they don't want it yes?

Hey Sylvia, I hear you'd like to see male Roegadyns in fancy outfits! Well have I got something for you!


http://i.imgur.com/igQVsNW.png

I've updated the op with this. So really I liiiiieeeed. I didn't get around to the clothe-less top yet but now we have what many would probably consider the "worst-case scenario" to compare.

Oh, for anybody who plays a Brogadyn that's wondering where I got that pose: I spliced together the two pictures I was given by a friend of their guy. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Ymal

I may have missed the point but you gave such bad pictures example for men in women clothes that I had to react. Only the first guy fill up that dress pretty well. If that woman took some random man clothes not her size she would probably look pretty bad in those too.

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the other pics were mostly just to show that bra on men, is rather pointless :)
He could have used something like this instead.
https://img1.etsystatic.com/029/0/76...90049_rp3s.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...fd6bd50a43.jpg

it's more about just using what fits you, rather than copy something from some other body-type, and it just looks weird.
The first guy would fit in the dress, if the dress was changed to fit his muscular body.
Maybe divide the skirt, and extend/reshape the "cups" to cover his pecs.
But as you said, it's a lot about how much effort you put into it.
As for this game, sure, add some dresses for men too, as long as it fits the male body. Just copy-pasting fem clothes, and giving them to men, is just gonna be a parody, like the 2 other pics i showed, with men in bras.

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

Hey Sylvia, I hear you'd like to see male Roegadyns in fancy outfits! Well have I got something for you!


http://i.imgur.com/igQVsNW.png

I've updated the op with this. So really I liiiiieeeed. I didn't get around to the clothe-less top yet but now we have what many would probably consider the "worst-case scenario" to compare.

Oh, for anybody who plays a Brogadyn that's wondering where I got that pose: I spliced together the two pictures I was given by a friend of their guy. ^_^

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haha, i'm still not really a fan of the cloth thing on the chest, but otherwise this looks nice :) maybe some other color though, to contrast his pale skin ;)

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

http://i.imgur.com/igQVsNW.png

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That looks so... majestic as hell. +1!

I agree that there is no need for an actual female looking bra on men, considering that well there is nothing here that need to be supported, as that link with the man belly dancer show he's not wearing any top... but SE themselves have told us to cover dem nipples a few times.

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/62...keyCollage.jpg

A fashion choice and a point of view of course but it kind of look like men bra of some sort...? not that I dislike the look of it.

I'm personally not asking for an exact replica of the female gears, but I wouldn't mind it either.

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

Updated with a modified top and sleeves design!
Updated with the modified version on a male Roegadyn!

So I was obviously upset about not being able to wear the new dress, especially after I found out that the girls could now wear the male outfit (really SE, even after the bunny/gamblers fiasco?) I noticed other people had trouble visualizing how it would look on a guy and decided to get off my butt and draw the dress onto my own character (in a range of colors!):

Some people are being a bit rude so I think I'll just clarify here that I am a straight female playing a male character and I wore the taffeta shawl/flame elite loincloth combo for probably at least 6 months. I dress my character in a way that I enjoy seeing him, not for shock value or anybody else's preferences. Nobody would be forced to wear this. It's glamour. Sex appeal isn't limited to girls.

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Nozooooomiii Kef Halik :D , you got my like and support :D:D:D

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Originally Posted by Samcaesar

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Not once did I bring up morality in my post. My point of view is that it looks ugly. I used the saddle on a cow analogy to showcase how out of place it looks. We see in a lot of games how the same set slightly redesigned between genders. This is either because the developer is satan or that what looks nice on a female body doesn't necessarily look good on a male one and vise versa. This is one of those situations as with the mentioned bikini armor you'll notice that the male version is in fact different than the female one. I'm OK with having a "male version" of this set, but what this thread is asking for is as ridiculous as me asking the DEVs to remove bras from open chested equipment like harnesses.

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

Hey Sylvia, I hear you'd like to see male Roegadyns in fancy outfits! Well have I got something for you!


http://i.imgur.com/igQVsNW.png

I've updated the op with this. So really I liiiiieeeed. I didn't get around to the clothe-less top yet but now we have what many would probably consider the "worst-case scenario" to compare.

Oh, for anybody who plays a Brogadyn that's wondering where I got that pose: I spliced together the two pictures I was given by a friend of their guy. ^_^

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Wow, that looks good on them! Nice job Nozomi! :D

I see nothing wrong with that outfit on them, and seeing that the top and bottom is separate you could mix and match!

Still a supporter, and thumbs up for the awesome work~! :D

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

Hey Sylvia, I hear you'd like to see male Roegadyns in fancy outfits! Well have I got something for you!


http://i.imgur.com/igQVsNW.png

I've updated the op with this. So really I liiiiieeeed. I didn't get around to the clothe-less top yet but now we have what many would probably consider the "worst-case scenario" to compare.

Oh, for anybody who plays a Brogadyn that's wondering where I got that pose: I spliced together the two pictures I was given by a friend of their guy. ^_^

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Haha, that's very clever. I knew it wouldn't look bad on them. :P It'd be nice to have some flashy caster gear for once. I really do hope they change their mind on the female specific gear.

I'm sure that would look even better on an Au Ra!


( because let's face it, elezen and roe are ugly *hides*

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Originally Posted by Ymal

I agree that there is no need for an actual female looking bra on men, considering that well there is nothing here that need to be supported, as that link with the man belly dancer show he's not wearing any top... but SE themselves have told us to cover dem nipples a few times.

http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/62...keyCollage.jpg

A fashion choice and a point of view of course but it kind of look like men bra of some sort...? not that I dislike the look of it.

I'm personally not asking for an exact replica of the female gears, but I wouldn't mind it either.

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what nipples :o WE HAVE NO NIPPLES check your chest not a areola in sight :o

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Originally Posted by lololink

I'm sure that would look even better on an Au Ra!


( because let's face it, elezen and roe are ugly *hides*

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i wonder if anyone is going to edit that thing onto a au ra.

OP amazing job! I'm supporting this!
Though I think they should just learn to do more matching clothes to male and female when they'll do a new look, like if you do a dancer look for female do a dancer look for male as well that is similar, if they want to keep the gender locked system. Differences are nice after all and it would even be an easier work. In particular, male characters need more beautiful clothes and the actual situation feels unfair.

I forgot to say that I like my non-nipples covered XD

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Originally Posted by dragonflie

if they see that X isn't popular enough, for them that is a complete failure.

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And to be honest. This seems to be a problem with Square, and many Japanese companies, as a whole.

'All or nothing' does not sound like a healthy way to keep a stable business. But that's tangential.

The fact that there are still people arguing the point that the clothes aren't made to fit, as if this is a real life article of clothing and not pixels that can be altered to fit on any body type, is astounding.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

The skirt? Considering most people I've seen use it use it for things like the yukata or certain armor sets...and yeah a simple cloth skirt like that is NOT inherently feminine or masculine. It's when you start cutting it differently and/or adding accessories that it gains its masculine or feminine features.

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That's incorrect, and largely biased on what the society you live in feels.
The only thing that makes something inherently feminine or masculine is when you have to design something (noticably) different to accomodate for differences in the male and female bodies.

Accessories etc have zero thing to do with that.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

This has nothing to do with the design or any "societal norms."

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It has everything to do with it.


You know what the first thing was that came to mind when I see the OPs pictures?
That looks too feminine.
What was the second thing, that came imediately after?
No, it doesnt. But it does make me consider why female clothing often has remarks of ''too much skin'', and why this can also apply to male clothing.

Then finally the third thought, when I was completely free from my own societal norms bias:
Wow, some of those colors look really good. And the design of those clothes is quite nice, on a male character.



And this is my line of thoughts reading the OP. I'm by all accounts a very open minded person but as it seems even then, still heavily effected by societal norms.




So again I'll say:

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Originally Posted by kyuven

This has nothing to do with the design or any "societal norms."

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It has everything to do with it.

I'm agreeing with Lemuria here.

One, that picture doesn't look appealing to me. Seems like you just copy/pasted the dress on a male body and made a few tweaks to make it fit. It's a bit uncreative.
If it were me, I would've lengthened the "skirt" portion to billow out more and closed either one or both of the slits, then, made a shawl, covering half the body to part of the arm. However, you pretty much just want men to wear girl clothes. I'm all for gender equality, but blurring the line to the point where it's no longer there? Yeah, no.
Two, I don't think you can make the argument "Men wear dresses/skirts, too." if your idea of a dress is "not pants". >.> A robe is not a dress. It's a robe.
Three, calling ppl sexist (those that are) for giving constructive criticism of your fashion style doesn't help your case. SE has done a good job with the fashion aspect of this game and it's not fair to accuse them of not doing so, simply because you can't have a dress on a guy.

Yes definitely the top must be something different I think, it looks too much like a boob holder while there is no boobs so it doesn't fit well with the character. I made a drawing but I'm so bad I'm not sure I should put it here...

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

SE has done a good job with the fashion aspect of this game and it's not fair to accuse them of not doing so, simply because you can't have a dress on a guy.

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The sexist comments come from the fact that female characters get more clothing options than men, as "exclusive" male gear is quickly made available to girls because "they'd look so cute in it!!" but "exclusive" female gear remains exclusive to the ladies.

Why are people calling this a dress though it's clearly a skirt.

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

A robe is not a dress. It's a robe.

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I see your still in denial.

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Originally Posted by Oce

The sexist comments come from the fact that female characters get more clothing options than men, as "exclusive" male gear is quickly made available to girls because "they'd look so cute in it!!" but "exclusive" female gear remains exclusive to the ladies.

Why are people calling this a dress though it's clearly a skirt.

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And I never said I was against a male ver. of that female outfit, just not to make it look like the male tried his best to wiggle into something he shouldn't have tried to wiggle into.

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

And I never said I was against a male ver. of that female outfit, just not to make it look like the male tried his best to wiggle into something he shouldn't have tried to wiggle into.

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I happen to like how it looks, and would be pretty disappointed if they changed it to pants or something. Gendered clothing is such a silly, American-Centric thing.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

First I said "hard to find"" not "impossible." Also, just because YOU don't view yourself as a clown doesn't mean others don't.

From this, it becomes obvious almost immediately where all these subcultures come from, and they become popular not because people actually want to dress like a victorian age woman, or dress like a black face cartoon, but simply because they run counter to the norm, because they're different.
So you have things that become popular explicitly because they're NOT normal.

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Hey you asked for examples..

also

I don't believe any of this, not based off what I've seen released from there. I guess we need to change FFXIV entirely to be like Japan irl, completely stripping the game of all magic and wonder. I can't believe you're trying to sit there with a straight face and tell me that THIS game developer who just released a game with a tight skinned suit male lead is completely normal. And for that matter what is normal?

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Originally Posted by Oce

I happen to like how it looks, and would be pretty disappointed if they changed it to pants or something. Gendered clothing is such a silly, American-Centric thing.

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What? Gendered clothing is a worldwide thing that has been the norm for thousands of years.

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

I'm agreeing with Lemuria here.

A robe is not a dress. It's a robe.

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Many will disagree with that :P

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

What? Gendered clothing is a worldwide thing that has been the norm for thousands of years.

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Thank you. I was just gonna point that out. But, I was beginning to wonder whether I should argue with someone who's prejudice against Americans is so that he inaccurately blames the country for a style that lasted before America was even much of one.

@ Sakei - Many probably failed history in high school (if they even finished it).

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

Thank you. I was just gonna point that out. But, I was beginning to wonder whether I should argue with someone who's prejudice against Americans is so that he inaccurately blames the country for a style that lasted before America was even much of one.

@ Sakei - Many probably failed history in high school (if they even finished it).

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Slavery was also a worldwide thing that was the norm for thousands of years.

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

@ Sakei - Many probably failed history in high school (if they even finished it).

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History is what happend in the past. Not what the future should look like.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

wordy wordy words

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You can stop pretending to understand a culture that you know nothing about now. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Slavery was also a worldwide thing that was the norm for thousands of years.

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Are you comparing slavery to gendered clothing? Really?

Really? We're comparing fashion styles with slavery?

...yup, this is why you're not getting your man-dress.

I'm done. If you all are going to make fallacies and call them arguments, I am not going to try to join in them.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Are you comparing slavery to gendered clothing? Really?

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Well it's an extreme example but it isn't wrong. It was "normal" to see back then.

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Originally Posted by TeaTimeBear

Well it's an extreme example but it isn't wrong. It was "normal" to see back then.

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His/her claim of it being the norm for thousands of years was in response to someone claiming it was an American thing. I don't see how bringing up slavery is relevant to argument.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

His/her claim of it being the norm for thousands of years was in response to someone claiming it was an American thing. I don't see how bringing up slavery is relevant to argument.

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I could go into details on this but I'd really rather not derail the thread any further. I feel like that happens all to often and I know that if I reply it'd bring someone else in and we'd likely get locked, the OP did a smashing job with his edits so I'd rather leave this here and ask that we bring the thread back on topic.

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Originally Posted by Sorciechan

Really? We're comparing fashion styles with slavery?

...yup, this is why you're not getting your man-dress.

I'm done. If you all are going to make fallacies and call them arguments, I am not going to try to join in them.

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Someone earlier in the thread compared men wearing feminine clothes to child pornography, people can say extrem things no matter their opinion. Only one person mentioned slavery, it doesn't mean that all people who want this dress in this thread agrees with them /facepalm

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Originally Posted by Radacci

you kinda missed the point.
female fits in male clothes, cause male clothes are uni-sex, fem clothes aren't.
A guy would need to transgender, to fit into fem clothes, while she doesn't have to; She could have skipped the facial hair, and been Jackie Sparrow.

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And yet I keep seeing well-endowed women cosplaying as male characters. And while I don't at all begrudge them the right to cosplay as their favourite character, just as I'm not saying those pictures posted of the guys in obviously female cosplay outfits should never have existed, I can't say that it looks good. So no, being female doesn't automatically mean you look good in male outfits, just as being male doesn't automatically mean you look bad in female outfits.

And transgender has nothing to do with body type :3 Transgender is about your gender identity, whether you identify as your biological gender or not. There are transgender women (born male) who are big and burly, and there are transgender men (born female) who have hourglass figures.

Also... regarding more 'feminine' body types... Have you looked at the body types we have in this game? Apart from highlanders and roegadyns, all of the men are fairly slender and thus wouldn't have any problem fitting into their girlfriend's clothes.
(As always, lalafells are a case of their own, since neither gender is especially feminine or masculine.)

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Originally Posted by R-Kine

I'm OK with having a "male version" of this set, but what this thread is asking for is as ridiculous as me asking the DEVs to remove bras from open chested equipment like harnesses.

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Well, good news! There is a male version of this set planned to be included in the game. It's this one:

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/lds/b...g/oshare03.png

The problem? It's not male-exclusive, but unisex.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Currently there are many pieces of male equipment that can be altered to be worn by the female characters, but certain equipment specific to females cannot be adjusted for males due to the differences in the character models.

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Well, I have the solution... Make all clothes for the male body, then adjust them to fit the female body. Problem eliminated.

I'm all out of popcorn already...

I wonder if people on JP side are also arguing about opinions... :rolleyes:

Don't feed the trolls.

P.S. I'm all for more options.