Specialist System in 3.0

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Originally Posted by shanvhere

Crafting is way to hardcore as it is, a game shouldnt be that. i play a game to have fun, not punching a kitten for not able to craft a damn gear

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I think the focus of this thread should stay on 3.0 specialist system as new information comes out, rather than humoring someone who does nothing but complain about how "hard" crafting is.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

Under other circumstances and contexts, yes, a more open-ended question is generally more conducive to conversation. However, I really just want to make sure this one specific concern is understood and addressed. Besides that, I don't believe Yoshi has given a one word answer to questions in the live letter before, so if this question is chosen, he will probably say other things he sees fit to disclose.

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I think you missed the point; live letters usually tend to go for more descriptive answer questions but most yes no questions don't even make the cut.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

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Perhaps I worded it poorly. DoW/DoM overall sell really poorly, but NQ versions of these are desynth, glamours or SB trash at best. Some of the Forager/Artisan gear NQ is still salvagable because the caps are reachable by melding extra materia, but this isn't the case with the off hands which was what I was trying to get at.

DoH/DoL gear is so profitable compared to other crafting ventures that I'd say crafting feels more like a pyramid scheme than anything else, and from your comment I think you might agree with me here. I'd like to see weapons and armor be at least as viable as the accessories are. At the very least I'd like to see all crafted gear be a side grade to end game gear and progress similar to tome gear: 10 ilvls below the raid drop but upgradable through a twine/oil.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

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One thing they could do is make raid level weapons craftable, but only with drops you find in that raid environment. You can make the upgrade catalyst as well with materials that could be drops or gated weekly.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

DoH/DoL gear is so profitable compared to other crafting ventures that I'd say crafting feels more like a pyramid scheme than anything else

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That's because crafters are the people that have money and incentive to spend it on MB (they can earn it back).. So money just flows from one crafter to another.

Hopefully in 3.0 we see some usable gear that we can craft. I'm quite optimistic about that part, I think it was mentioned that their intent to not have all the best combat gear come from dungeons once 3.0 hits.

DoW/DoM can still sell, but you have to distinguish yourself and perhaps go the extra mile.. I think I can sell Inferno weapons, there's only 1 other person on Jenova who does that and most of the items actually have 0 listings. On more populated servers, it may be different.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

One thing they could do is make raid level weapons craftable, but only with drops you find in that raid environment. You can make the upgrade catalyst as well with materials that could be drops or gated weekly.

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This is something I've really been hoping they'd do. My best guess is they don't want groups that already cleared it gearing up people that can't clear it yet. However, if it's on a weekly lockout I think that would prevent it. At the very least it'd be nice to have a 3rd stat option for combat gear.

The biggest issue with crafted DoW/DoM items is the cost in materia to make them viable. Ignoring the cost, most pieces can be BiS. If they add TV materia in 3.0, I see a huge boom in crafted gear.

Ahh tier V materia, you're thinking it too?

About a week ago, I was contemplating hoarding tier 4 materia so I can make some profit upon HW release then the thought of tier V materia possibly being introduced stopped me from doing that :)

Maybe the stat materia value will appreciate though.. Still speculating..

I've been anticipating TV materia since 2.1 when they added the carbon matter for it, this patch for sure we'll get it.

>.>

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I've been anticipating TV materia since 2.1 when they added the carbon matter for it, this patch for sure we'll get it.

>.>

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Not to be a Debbie Downer, but it's plausible that they haven't added it yet because they knew they'd be scrapping the materia system when the expansion rolled out.

I just don't share your optimism. Unless you are on a server where non-crafters are swimming in gil I don't see why a person would go to crafted gear when there are much cheaper alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

I just don't share your optimism. Unless you are on a server where non-crafters are swimming in gil I don't see why a person would go to crafted gear when there are much cheaper alternatives.

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Same here, if the PAX East interview is to be taken as truth (the part about not wanting dungeon loots always being best in slot) I see potential for the gear market, but for the most part I still see most people opting for free dungeon loot instead of spending millions on new gear.. It'll probably be something that'll have crazy high prices ~10m for a couple weeks as people are shooting for server firsts, then drop down to 2-3m a month later and just stay there rotting. I don't mind it though, gives me something to work towards as soon as expansion hits and that's where the money will be :)

Just finished leveling/gearing my alt in supra and unlocking 4* for everything, Lucis next, then we'll find out you can specialise in everything on 1 char xD

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

Just finished leveling/gearing my alt in supra and unlocking 4* for everything, Lucis next, then we'll find out you can specialise in everything on 1 char xD

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Wouldn't surprise me if Specializations are Jobs for DoH. GSM is Marauder what GSM-Specialist is to Warrior. If they limit cross classes skills to 2-3 classes like Jobs are then I think that'd add some much needed variety between the crafting professions.

Also, you must really like crafting. The MSQ is enough reason for me to not level an alt.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

Also, you must really like crafting. The MSQ is enough reason for me to not level an alt.

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With the new information coming out about Isgard's accessibility (I think we can still access Ishgard without 2.55 story being done) I'm willing to take the risk and just get my alts up to builder status.. then maybe just the token gear to prepare. If anything, I'll still have all the desynths covered :)

MSQ isn't too bad on an alt. 2.1 through 2.55 takes around 20 hours if you have a tank or healer

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

The MSQ is enough reason for me to not level an alt.

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Alt was already a l50 blm with most the MSQ unlocked luckily! ^^

Confirmed max 3 classes to specialize in, meaning we need 3 alts. What a bloody waste of time.

Edit: From my understanding however, it seems as thought we won't need alts. Specialist does not introduce new recipes. Those are tied to level. All it introduces are unique skills to choose from. If that is the case, we may no need alts. But correct me if i am wrong please.

Source: The live letter that was released this morning. I can understand some Japanese. Not fluent tho.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

Confirmed max 3 classes to specialize in, meaning we need 3 alts. What a bloody waste of time.

Edit: From my understanding however, it seems as thought we won't need alts. Specialist does not introduce new recipes. Those are tied to level. All it introduces are unique skills to choose from. If that is the case, we may no need alts. But correct me if i am wrong please.

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Source? Don't really see why you'd need alts either way.

Edit: Thanks for the source.

I just wanted to expand on my previous comment. In the amount of time 3 crafters would spend leveling 2 alts to have all the specializations on a single account wouldn't it be more efficient if those 3 crafters worked together and each focused on 2-3 complementary specializations and made enough mats for their circle as a whole?

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

Confirmed max 3 classes to specialize in, meaning we need 3 alts. What a bloody waste of time.

Edit: From my understanding however, it seems as thought we won't need alts. Specialist does not introduce new recipes. Those are tied to level. All it introduces are unique skills to choose from. If that is the case, we may no need alts. But correct me if i am wrong please.

Source: The live letter that was released this morning. I can understand some Japanese. Not fluent tho.

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Ahh perfect, I already had plans to have 3 characters since it looked like a nice number to go with the desynth limitations.. guess I'll just have to keep working on my alts then.

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A8: The specialist system is a new system for Disciples of the Hand, and you’ll be able to undertake a quest to become a specialist from level 55. It’ll be possible to become a specialist in three classes of your choice. By using “scrips” you’ll be able to change which classes you specialize in afterwards. By setting a specialist class, you’ll be able to learn special actions. Currently, in order to make some of the higher difficulty recipes, there is a necessity to level various classes for their actions, and we feel that the difficulty has spiked a bit. We plan to improve this through the specialist system, so you can think of this system as something that will allow you to broaden your options by either playing as the classes you really like or enabling you to use all of the classes.

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It's definitely not what I had predicted earlier, but this is a substantial departure from what was said in previous interviews where they had said new recipes would be linked to the Specialist system (which they are NOT saying here). What it sounds like is for classes you are not specialized in, it'll be about what we are used to in terms of hardcore crafting rotations needing all the cross class skills. The Specialist system will give skills powerful enough to make up for not having all the cross class skills.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

It's definitely not what I had predicted earlier, but this is a substantial departure from what was said in previous interviews where they had said new recipes would be linked to the Specialist system (which they are NOT saying here). What it sounds like is for classes you are not specialized in, it'll be about what we are used to in terms of hardcore crafting rotations needing all the cross class skills. The Specialist system will give skills powerful enough to make up for not having all the cross class skills.

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It was never said specialist was linked to actual recipes, that was nothing more than an assumption others made. It also wasn't mentioned this time, so it may or may not be true. Means that it is still worth leveling at least one alt to 50. This seems a lot like everyone will have let's say 12 available cross class skills and 3 available specialist skills. Meaning specialist is mainly used to give more available options when it comes towards crafting rotations.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

It was never said specialist was linked to actual recipes, that was nothing more than an assumption others made. It also wasn't mentioned this time, so it may or may not be true. Means that it is still worth leveling at least one alt to 50.

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It was said in the Famitsu interview. There are two translations out there for that interview and they both rendered it approximately the same:
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ast_interview/
"With the new system, once you're at 60, you can then become an apprentise to each respective guilds' guildmaster. You'll gain new skills and recipes by becoming a meister/specialist."
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...29-Translation
"After you finish training, you'll be able to choose a profession to qualify as a Specialist which may provide a special action or special recipes."

I'd like to think that was something misspoken and that recipes are not included. The Live Letter is really a much more formal channel than an interview, so I would place more weight on the Live Letter.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

This seems a lot like everyone will have let's say 12 available cross class skills and 3 available specialist skills. Meaning specialist is mainly used to give more available options when it comes towards crafting rotations.

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I don't expect it to be worth it to have Alts. I can basically guarantee you the Specialist abilities will NOT be cross class. The whole point is to get away from the current system where crafters who don't extensively cross class are useless. Those of us who have all the cross class skills and can craft top level stuff currently should still be able to continue to do so at a comparable difficulty in classes we are not specialized in.

Think Specialist system = boost for casual / single-class crafters.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

Think Specialist system = boost for casual / single-class crafters.

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The more I'm seeing the more I'm thinking this is the way it is intended... and frankly I approve if this is the case. If it means more people will craft because they need only level 1-3 specific crafts they'll find useful then to me that opens up the market board to more people that are willing to buy ingots, leathers, and cloths for the things they aren't specialized in.

Hopefully this is one step of many toward making crafting more useful and increasing the demand on the market board.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

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So long as the specialist thing allows for exclusive recipes and skills exclusive to that class only, I don't see too much of a problem. Having three specialization is enough for you to take what you want toward your main (say, CRP and LTW for my bard) and a third such as culinary. Especially if they have raid-worthy equips like I mentioned before.

Worse case scenario? It becomes a repeat of what we have now; crafted armor is next to useless except for glamour (or kirimu coat 2.0 if itemization is that bad). Weapons have no place except for glamour and GSM becomes master race (again) because of accessories. Making the skills cross-able would also be a bad idea since one will inevitably become better than another while others remain useless (looking at you LTW)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

So long as the specialist thing allows for exclusive recipes and skills exclusive to that class only, I don't see too much of a problem. Having three specialization is enough for you to take what you want toward your main (say, CRP and LTW for my bard) and a third such as culinary. Especially if they have raid-worthy equips like I mentioned before.

Worse case scenario? It becomes a repeat of what we have now; crafted armor is next to useless except for glamour (or kirimu coat 2.0 if itemization is that bad). Weapons have no place except for glamour and GSM becomes master race (again) because of accessories. Making the skills cross-able would also be a bad idea since one will inevitably become better than another while others remain useless (looking at you LTW)

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Actions? Sure that's fine.
Recipes? NO! Why force us to make alts, defeats purpose of armory system.

What I'm hoping for out of specialization is something as simple as this.

You specialize in Carpenter? Now all your lumber synths produce 2 lumber per synth, and it uses the same exact shard/crystal/cluster and material requirements.

A perk as basic as that would not discourage people who might want to be everything but can't but it would also offer a clear advantage to a specialized crafter who can now produce with double efficiency.

Time will tell though but in all honest, 3/8 isn't that bad and I mean it's not going to be easy to gear up 8 crafts since they are using unique pieces of gear again lol. Then there is also tier V materia to worry about, that's gonna be a nightmare so personally for me I can't even imagine gearing up 3 armor sets for 3 crafts that I specialize in, that would cost so much gil most likely lol.

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Originally Posted by Airget

You specialize in Carpenter? Now all your lumber synths produce 2 lumber per synth, and it uses the same exact shard/crystal/cluster and material requirements.

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That'll effectively gimp your unspecialized crafts..
If that happens, I see lumber prices dropping to 70-80% mat cost by the specialists.

Say it costs 100k to produce, on MB, specialists will be listing them at around 70-80k. If you're not specialized, then what do you do? Just buy off the MB, it's cheaper.
It also means that you won't be able to compete in any market other than the one you specialized in.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

Actions? Sure that's fine.
Recipes? NO! Why force us to make alts, defeats purpose of armory system.

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You'd need an alt if you wanted to access every single recipe at a single given time. You can still change your specialization and having your choice of 3 out of 8 would allow for some diversity in the market, assuming the don't follow same trend as 2.0 with body pieces/weapons being useless or GSM accessories being master race for progression clears.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrZ

Actions? Sure that's fine.
Recipes? NO! Why force us to make alts, defeats purpose of armory system.

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I agree with RiceisNice. So long as the recipes provide relevant weapons and gear the market demand should be high enough that the people wiling to level alts (the minority) won't be able to single-handedly control the entire market as they currently can do now.

I don't feel like I'm being forced to level alts. I feel like I have a reason to make arrangements with the other crafters I've befriended on my server so that we can benefit from complementing each others specialization. The people howling that they are being forced to level alts are doing so on a personal restriction they place on themselves.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

The people howling that they are being forced to level alts are doing so on a personal restriction they place on themselves.

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That's very true, but it's also a valid concern.. Where is this "Armoury" system going?
I really enjoy being able to make everything I ever need on my own, that independence is what keeps me progressing through my crafting classes, it's not even about competing in all markets or dominating them, there's not enough time in a day to make enough gear to control the entire market anyway... But not having my name stamped on all my gear, or not being able to make full gear for my combat classes and having to ask people to make it for me etc.. is just too much hassle. Not that I can't get it done, I'd just rather do it myself. I like that freedom.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

That's very true, but it's also a valid concern.. Where is this "Armoury" system going?

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I like the freedom as well. It's possible they are realizing that the Armory system doesn't turn out well for the market board when all the dedicated crafters can be every crafter/gatherer. They'd need to modify something so that it's more beneficial to focus on one crafter rather than be everything, as right now crafters are Jack of all trade, Master of All.

Armoroy system works for DoW/DoM because even though you can be every class that doesn't necessarily mean you are going to be equally geared and proficient with every class. With DoH/DoL if you are geared and proficient with one then you are equally proficient, and likely geared, with all the others. This leads to a saturation of DoH/DoL classes that you'd never see being a problem with DoW/DoM.

Right now there really isn't any incentive for a crafter to focus on a couple of crafts. If you were to do this you are only putting yourself at a disadvantage.

They have already stated numerous times in interviews and the Live Letter that the intent is to allow people to be able to craft in one or a few classes without being forced to level all of them. They have not said a single thing about any intent to restrict crafters. I don't know why we are still having this kind of discussion.

In short: Specialist = casual crafters can pick 3 classes to not suck in, not that hardcore crafters can only access recipes from 3 classes.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

They have already stated numerous times in interviews and the Live Letter that the intent is to allow people to be able to craft in one or a few classes without being forced to level all of them. They have not said a single thing about any intent to restrict crafters. I don't know why we are still having this kind of discussion.

In short: Specialist = casual crafters can pick 3 classes to not suck in, not that hardcore crafters can only access recipes from 3 classes.

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Yes, I remember that part.. call me a skeptic, I just don't like to be blindsided by any sudden last minute changes.
It's still too early to tell anyway, including the naysayers, none of us know what the final product will look like.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

In short: Specialist = casual crafters can pick 3 classes to not suck in, not that hardcore crafters can only access recipes from 3 classes.

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Well, there's a bit more to it than that. Specialists will have access to unique skills which may make crafting a lot easier than simply cross-classing everything. After all, there needs to be benefits for players who have already got every class at 50+.

However, none of this really matters. As mentioned, part of the scrip system will allow you to swap your specializations so it won't be a permanent choice if you don't want it to be.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Well, there's a bit more to it than that. Specialists will have access to unique skills which may make crafting a lot easier than simply cross-classing everything. After all, there needs to be benefits for players who have already got every class at 50+.

However, none of this really matters. As mentioned, part of the scrip system will allow you to swap your specializations so it won't be a permanent choice if you don't want it to be.

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I've heard there is a long cooldown if one decides to swap specializations, which makes sense otherwise why have specializations at all?

I'm really conflicted as to how we should perceive the new specialization system. I mean, what is there to get excited about for existing crafters?

* A more casual friendly crafting environment means, more competition = less profit

* Limitations that don't exist now, hampering freedom

* New abilities to make crafting easier, which again means little to existing crafters

The only thing I have heard that is exciting for crafting is that many crafting items will be BiS or equal to BiS raid drops.

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Originally Posted by Zanarken

Stuff and things

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Oppose to what? The system we have has time limits placed upon us via gathering classes for materials which with time invested overcomes it as well if you do not outright purchase them. The freedom you assume is actually only the freedom to be like everyone else, not that you can craft everything. So if everyone can still craft the same recipes specialists or not we are still in the same vein and you haven't lost the freedom but if there are specialist only recipes I have yet to hear of them. Mats might be a different story as favors are going to really shift peoples abilites to decide which material is important so gathers will have more vital daily choices then crafters that can effect their overall profit.

And "easier" has a requirement of balance. The easier something is the higher the bar of difficulty will rise when the devs want something hard. Masterbook 2 is a shining example as they made its requirements outside of our available stats which is why we had to manipulate and stall for rng. I would be more worried about the value of old things then new because the market is very fickle and markets will die unless they built in a use for low level materials.

But change is coming and that isn't a bad thing new people will make money, old might not make as much but such is the cost of progress. I doubt it will be so drastic. The game is afoot which always makes me excited.

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Originally Posted by giantslayer

They have already stated numerous times in interviews and the Live Letter that the intent is to allow people to be able to craft in one or a few classes without being forced to level all of them. They have not said a single thing about any intent to restrict crafters. I don't know why we are still having this kind of discussion.

In short: Specialist = casual crafters can pick 3 classes to not suck in, not that hardcore crafters can only access recipes from 3 classes.

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Good points Giantslayer.

I'm still skeptical, but I really hope that this Specialist system turns out the way you're saying, and it sounds like it might be, from the latest Live Letter. 2 key things:

1. I completely agree that our current Crafting was very "harsh" for players who didn't have Max Crafts in All Crafting Classes (to have access to all the Cross-Class Skills), and those that couldn't afford to do Penta-Melds / Quad-Melds for their gear. (I have all Crafts maxed a long time ago, but I still agree with this; I know plenty of players that got discouraged and decided to just give up on Crafting because of this.)

2. So if the new System is akin to players gaining "Specialist Skills" that is the equivalent (or maybe even slightly more potent) of our Cross Class Skills for those of us that are Omni Crafters, then, I'm fine with that. For example, if, say, the Specialist System grants a Crafter (who didn't Max all Crafts) to get a "Rapid Synthesis II" or like a "Byregot's Blessing II" type of skill, where it's as if they "earned" Byregot's Blessing, but without needing to take that separate class to 50, I'm fine w/ that.

It lets players who can't spend all that time / money to be competent. Kinda like the new Artisan's Gear they introduced for Trade-In Items (No Need to Materia Meld). It's not as good as gear you Multi-Meld, but it's close enough that players who can't afford it can craft higher level things.


Only time can tell, but I think if it's along these lines (above), I'd be relieved and think it's cool to make it more accessible to players.

If you look at the other side: The Battle equivalent would've been forcing all DoW / DoM to level All Jobs to 50, to get "required" Cross Class Skills to be "legit" in Final Coil of Bahamut, etc. That would be brutal and unfair, forcing a player who might enjoy, say, Scholar, to have to level ALL Jobs to 50, get all the Cross-Class skills and then be relevant.

I don't expect too much of a change with the system, except for the scrips allowing new people to catch up to top level crafting easier. Yes you will be able to specialize and just do one craft enough to make your own gear, but the omnicrafters will still dominate the markets because they have the means to. The closest thing you could come to eliminating that is to take away crafting levels and gear, and make it so everyone has the same odds to HQ/NQ/fail any synth.

If there are specialist recipes, I don't see them being so numerous or fast selling as to warrant using an alt.

i just hope they put in some real thought to each specialist skill so that there is clear advantages for each and not like "oh everyone ends up with the same." for ex. you got someone who wants to focus more on quantity vs quality... so a skill that yields x2 like someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

If you look at the other side: The Battle equivalent would've been forcing all DoW / DoM to level All Jobs to 50, to get "required" Cross Class Skills to be "legit" in Final Coil of Bahamut, etc. That would be brutal and unfair, forcing a player who might enjoy, say, Scholar, to have to level ALL Jobs to 50, get all the Cross-Class skills and then be relevant.

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If it weren't for Jobs limiting cross class skills this is exactly how raiding would be. Honestly, it's already like this to an extent. Healers need Swiftcast. DPS need Invigorate/Blood for Blood. If it weren't for Jobs people would all be running around with the same ten cross class skills like crafters currently do.

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Originally Posted by Pterois

oh everyone ends up with the same

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You mean like the current crafting system?

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

You mean like the current crafting system?

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Yes... but no. You really don't have much of a choice with cross class skill, you pretty much need all of em. More like how the desynth system started and everyone went GSM because it was the obvious choice but they did level things off a bit once they realized how one sided it was.