[dev1017] Materia crafting system & Materia: A Matter of Mystery (08/26/2011)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Keftenk

That doesn't necessarily mean you can't socket it, just can't get others to do it.

---

Like I said, letting you attach materia to powerful gear like that destroys the balance the system is proposing. This is intended to make common gear powerful so we can wear what we like aesthetically and still function well, becoming as good as the hardcore gear if we put in the work.

In addition, not all tier IV "Vitality" materia will grant you +28 HP. In some cases, it may give you +24 HP, etc.

Was good until you got to here, Yoshi-P. Another mystery system?

Are there going to be Materia for Crafter's/Gather's gear?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estellios

Like I said, letting you attach materia to powerful gear like that destroys the balance the system is proposing. This is intended to make common gear powerful so we can wear what we like aesthetically and still function well, becoming as good as the hardcore gear if we put in the work.

---

Oh wow, never thought of this before, now this just gets even better because i can wear a pretty dalmatica and not feel gimp!

Quote:

---

In order to create a materia, the spiritbond level on the item must be maxed out.
The spiritbond level on an item is increased through usage, such as using them in battle. If the item is used in battle, the rate that spiritbond will increase will differ depending on the enemy you fight and if the item is optimal for your level. If you were to use an optimal item, the spiritbond level will be maxed out within a few hours of play time.

---

I have a suggestion (if it hasn't already been considered, implemented or rejected). If a piece of gear reaches 0 degradation (broken), the Spirit Bond should be lost as well. Also 100% gear should accumulate Spirit Bond faster than 25% gear, for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davorok

I have a suggestion (if it hasn't already been considered, implemented or rejected). If a piece of gear reaches 0 degradation (broken), the Spirit Bond should be lost as well. Also 100% gear should accumulate Spirit Bond faster than 25% gear, for example.

---

*While in the grind party*

"Wait guys, stop. My gear just went down to 75% so I'm not getting spirit bond points as fast as I should like"

*warps back to aetheryte* *repair NPC* *chocobo to grind spot*

5 minutes later: ready guyz! im back! *10 minutes after the grind started again* *Another party member*

"uh, guyz, Im down 75% on my gear, brb!"

Now repeat that same process over and over again.....

To answer you properly, I believe gear degradation should not have anything to do with spirit bonding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holland

*While in the grind party**

"uh, guyz, Im down 75% on my gear, brb!"

---

Sounds like every Grind Party I've ever been in: "I need food". "I need arrows", I need Signet", "I need tools", etc. LoL
...but I understand.
I never claimed all my suggestions were good ones. ;>P But I still think Broken gear should lose the Spirit Bond cuz frankly, you're pretty lame if you let your gear break and besides...it's broken.

If you have gear that is 0%, the memories should become bad memories and thus become negative materia (eg. Enemy Lure). :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chardrizard

Oh wow, never thought of this before, now this just gets even better because i can wear a pretty dalmatica and not feel gimp!

---

I'd like to wear a pretty Vintage Robe and not feel ugly (any kind of the Darkhold mage gear)! =P

I hope they add more dalmaticas cause it sucks they stop at i think r21, I kinda like them even if I prefer robes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bayohne

The system will calculate these success rates, and the rates will be displayed prior to beginning the infusion process.

---

Best part!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rubicon

In addition, not all tier IV "Vitality" materia will grant you +28 HP. In some cases, it may give you +24 HP, etc.

Was good until you got to here, Yoshi-P. Another mystery system?

---

Aaaaand the worst part! I hate the level of randomisation in systems like these. That 4 HP counts!

Really interesting and deep system on paper.

For those asking of you'd be able to put materia into Rare/Ex gear, I'm pretty sure they had mentioned before you can only socket things you have the skill to make. This is why Alchemist and Culinarians are out of the whole Materia system (Though I remember we argued that Alchemist "make" a dagger or two. We never got an answer, I believe).

If what I'm remembering here is correct, it stands to reason you can't put materia on them rares. I mean, what craft and level would it require?

The repair requirement, maybe...?

What I'd like to know is can you spiritbond with the unique/untradable equipment and convert it to materia or is the whole system only for crafted goods.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ottovonawesome

What I'd like to know is can you spiritbond with the unique/untradable equipment and convert it to materia or is the whole system only for crafted goods.

---

No, you can't

Quote:

---

You will not be able to turn powerful items, such as unique/untradeable items obtained from notorious monsters, into materia.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

No, you can't

---

That just means you can't turn them into materia.

The question of whether or not we'll be able to socket r/ex gear with materia is still unanswered except for "NM" gear which was confirmed by Matsui(?) that it won't.

Edit: Sorry, I read his question wrong. You are correct, my bad lol.

Quote:

---

* It is possible to have others attach materia on your behalf, as long as the gear you wish to enhance is tradable.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Estellios

From this, under "Attaching Materia": http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/277

Also the fact that this is supposed to bridge the gap between crafted gear and NM/Dungeon/Whatever gear by letting you create powerful gear through time and effort. Allowing special Unique/untradeable gear defeats the whole purpose of the system and keeps those items waaaay more powerful than crafted gear.

---

Weird, I took that as pretty much confirmation that we will be able to enhance r/ex gear, just that we'd have to do it ourselves.

Edit: The way you see it makes no sense to me either. If we can't enhance r/ex endgame gear, then all of those people who are decked out in r/ex gear won't even use it because they are likely the min/max type and will opt for the best equipment in game. Which means they'll be going for +5 crafted gear, making the r/ex gear useless and the content pointless for them.

I think it's time we got a real confirmation on this..

Yeah seriously..

They keep saying NM gear, NM gear, over and over. There is also company gear, raid gear, the crafted items that are only Unique, and who else know what in the future. I wish they would just lay it our plain and clear if we can only add materia to crafted gear.

Sometimes I wonder why they don't just say things directly to us. I had forgot about that "Along as it's tradable" line. So now I am confused myself as ALL gear is tradable except R/ex. Perhaps they mean the person can't accept a unique item if they already have one in their inventory?

That's the thing. Any gear that can't be imbued with materia becomes automatically inferior. The only thing to really use it for, then, is as backup in case you destroy your main gear. Even as it stands now, a lot of the dungeon gear is outclassed by HQ crafted gear, and this will only be more true when the latter gets materia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Etienn

...why not just quiet down, and except the change?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TonyMontana

...why dont you just quiet down and except my opinion.

---

Regardless of my eminently anti-Montana position, I believe that expressing said opinion serves no practical purpose.

Instead, a respectful note to the two of you: I think that, in the quotes above, you both meant to type accept, instead of except... I know, spelling and grammar corrections are frowned upon around here; I wouldn't mention it, other than with the current spelling, both mean something drastically different than what you two intended to say. I will risk collective rage and note this for the benefit of any other readers that, like me, might have been left scratching their heads for a bit, before intuiting the possibility of a misspell.

R

Another question I have is how will this all be sellable in the wards? Will every single materia have a listing? That wouldn't be too bad, but what about gear imbued with materia? We have been told that as well will be sellable. That would be a complete nightmare to sell with the current ward system.

I see this turning into a shout to sell system at least for the short-term. With all the possible materia combinations on armor, I don't even see a way they could implement it into this market system. They would have to completely redo the system to make it display like a bazarr where we can view each individual item.

What confuses me even more is that Forbidden Materia Craft is meant for the hardcore players, the same players who will blow through content much quicker than casual players and in effect get to have their "elite" feeling of having gear before everyone else, as Yoshi P himself has stated.

How are they supposed to feel superior if the gear they've acquired is inferior to crafted gear? Doesn't make sense at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arximiro

Another question I have is how will this all be sellable in the wards? Will every single materia have a listing? That wouldn't be too bad, but what about gear imbued with materia? We have been told that as well will be sellable. That would be a complete nightmare to sell with the current ward system.

I see this turning into a shout to sell system at least for the short-term. With all the possible materia combinations on armor, I don't even see a way they could implement it into this market system. They would have to completely redo the system to make it display like a bazarr where we can view each individual item.

---

Yea I agree, I haven't even begun to try and wrap my mind around this yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

What confuses me even more is that Forbidden Materia Craft is meant for the hardcore players, the same players who will blow through content much quicker than casual players and in effect get to have their "elite" feeling of having gear before everyone else, as Yoshi P himself has stated.

How are they supposed to feel superior if the gear they've acquired is inferior to crafted gear? Doesn't make sense at all.

---

Well the way I read it, the only materia they're taking into consideration for balance issues is the first. This means that at a base level crafted gear will still be inferior and that even with a single materia it may still be inferior or at best of the same level.

The people who take the time, effort and patience to slot more than that get rewarded as they should. Every time they attach another piece they have a chance of losing EVERYTHING. Depending on how the success rates are, this would make 5-slotted gear an exceptionally rare occurrence which would mean that not nearly everyone's going to have it. If the success rates are low enough, this would mean few people would have the desire to slot more materia than one.

This in turn does make the U/U gear still worth it as you have superior stats with none of the fuss. Those who don't want to waste their time and resources attaching materia won't have to.

Edit: Also consider that not all slots can accept all materia. The Dungeon/NM gear could have bonuses that would be impossible with materia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arximiro

Another question I have is how will this all be sellable in the wards? Will every single materia have a listing? That wouldn't be too bad, but what about gear imbued with materia? We have been told that as well will be sellable. That would be a complete nightmare to sell with the current ward system.

I see this turning into a shout to sell system at least for the short-term. With all the possible materia combinations on armor, I don't even see a way they could implement it into this market system. They would have to completely redo the system to make it display like a bazarr where we can view each individual item.

---

It's obvious that it will just stay the way it is and you will have to check every single item that shows up in the search. It will be like the current situation when there's more than 20 for sale, you'll be doing that for everything. It's a shame that the flawed market system will take the fun out of what is looking to be a great new economy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

Well the way I read it, the only materia they're taking into consideration for balance issues is the first. This means that at a base level crafted gear will still be inferior and that even with a single materia it may still be inferior or at best of the same level.

The people who take the time, effort and patience to slot more than that get rewarded as they should. Every time they attach another piece they have a chance of losing EVERYTHING. Depending on how the success rates are, this would make 5-slotted gear an exceptionally rare occurrence which would mean that not nearly everyone's going to have it. If the success rates are low enough, this would mean few people would have the desire to slot more materia than one.

This in turn does make the U/U gear still worth it as you have superior stats with none of the fuss. Those who don't want to waste their time and resources attaching materia won't have to.

Edit: Also consider that not all slots can accept all materia. The Dungeon/NM gear could have bonuses that would be impossible with materia.

---

So basically hardcore is more about gil than skill. The reason I say this is because a person with hundreds of millions of gil won't be affected much by the failure rate as they'll always be able to buy the equipment and/or materia again and keep trying. Eventually they will reach their goal, not because they're better players, but because they can afford to dump millions on their gear. That's a bad system, even the ex-FFXI crowd would agree I think.

Honestly I see soooo many problems with this it's unfathomable, and I don't mean just gil-based elitism. But I'm going to wait and see exactly how it's implemented before I post my theories. We've all seen what happens on these forums when someone posts something that isn't confirmed, so I'll just save myself the headache.

I really, really hope Yoshi P and the devs thought this through entirely.. It has the potential to be a great system, but at the same time has the potential to destroy the game as well.

Edit: I'm fairly sure what he meant about 1 materia gear being the basis of game balance has nothing to do with r/ex gear. He meant that content difficulty would be balanced in accordance to players equipped with gear that has 1 materia in it.

And as far as slots go, he just meant that accessories can't be enhanced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

I really, really hope Yoshi P and the devs thought this through entirely.. It has the potential to be a great system, but at the same time has the potential to destroy the game as well.

---

Well they are professional game developers. I mean this is what they do all day, for a living. You have to be of the mindset of looking for all potential flaws in something if you're in development.

Even if you could slot materia into U/U gear, there would still be gil-based elitism. It would just mean they'd be able buy all the materia they want and start slotting as soon as they got the gear. It would take a little longer but with enough gil you can skip the materia generation process. The only way to completely eliminate gil-based elitism for this system would be to make all materia Untradable and all gear with materia in it Untradable. Then you would only have the profits of your own work. Though even then the people with the most gil could simply acquire the best materia converting gear faster so even that's out.

HQ gear can be obtained by purhasing it, which takes 0 skill at all. R/EX gear must be obtained through natural means, which usually involves skill.

Yea, either way, both systems will allow for wealthier players to gain the upper hand. But the former is more manipulative if you ask me, requiring 0 skill at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

Well the way I read it, the only materia they're taking into consideration for balance issues is the first. This means that at a base level crafted gear will still be inferior and that even with a single materia it may still be inferior or at best of the same level.

---

I think they meant that more as "You should be able to clear new content with only one materia per slot, give or take." Not, "New dungeon gear will be more or less balanced against crafted gear + one materia."

I find myself agreeing with Meowy on this one. If current trends continue, crafted gear will not only be just plain better, but will also have room to grow and further exceed the dungeon gear. Literally the only point I'm seeing for dungeon gear (aside from maybe the occasional BIS piece) is as a backup to whatever you're trying to multi-inlay. . .

For those wondering about adding materia to unique/untradable gear, here's my take on it:

Attach requirements:

"In order to attach materia to a certain piece of equipment, Disciples of the Hand must fulfill the class and level requirements for crafting it."

Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/277

So for Example; Iron longsword is a blacksmith 45 recipe, so you need to be a level 45 blacksmith in order to attach materia to it. Something like a Templar's Haubergeon has no crafting recipe on it therefore it does not meet the requirements to attach materia.

That's how I read it.

Honestly, there's just way too many variables that come into play with this, many of which we don't have any concrete info about yet. Gil, stats, content design, success rates, drop rates, etc, etc. It literally affects every aspect of the game, and likewise it's very easy to overlook something seemingly insignificant yet which has the potential to break the game.

This has to be handled very cautiously because they have to make sure that the content they release is worth doing for everyone, while at the same time not making the rewards from it too OP. The purchasable equipment can't be too OP either when compared to the content-acruired equipment. They have to make sure that the game doesn't revolve entirely around gil. Those are among the most important aspects of it, but there's still more to it than that.

As I said earlier, I'm really not even going to bother to get into it until we have concrete info on all of these aspects. Unfortunately, this means that no matter how much info we are given through dev posts, there will always be more questions that follow. That's not to say that more info wouldn't be nice. But to really see what effect this will all have on the game as a whole is something we'll have to actually test and see firsthand.

I'll just say it again, I really hope they thought this entire system through and tested its effects on the game itself before releasing it. It's very likely that a small mistake has the potential to cripple certain aspects of the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

HQ gear can be obtained by purhasing it, which takes 0 skill at all. R/EX gear must be obtained through natural means, which usually involves skill.

Yea, either way, both systems will allow for wealthier players to gain the upper hand. But the former is more manipulative if you ask me, requiring 0 skill at all.

---

People are already buying Dzemael's gaers, so R/X doesnt stop wealthy players either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chardrizard

People are already buying Dzemael's gaers, so R/X doesnt stop wealthy players either.

---

That's true, even my shell sells DH gear. But the buyers still have to attend the event to get it, and have to wait for certain times to actually have to opportunity to purchase them, not to mention they have to be lucky enough to have the gear drop for them. They can't just run to the Market Wards and purchase whatever they need.

And yes I know, HQ gear might not always be available for purchase either, but you can bet that the mats will be. You can't craft r/ex gear on the other hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misha

Exactly... I don't feel like limiting myself in party or solo just so I can transform my gear later into materia. Going to have to buy all my materia cause of this >.< No idea why they just didnt use a simple universal currency that builds up as u fight which u can spend on any equipment to transform. Pug's are alrdy pretty horrid, imagine all the people that will run around in crappy gear in parties just so they can get materia from it :S

---

He said it wasnt random, meaning the best gear gives best materia, meaning people will do their best to obtain 10 of all the best gear :P And as thing gets destroyed, gil will dissappear, burn out!

I guess a end-game gear with 7 infused materia would go for 500 mill gil, then 200 mill of those would go to make another 7 infused one

This is a great idea from SE ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Medura

He said it wasnt random, meaning the best gear gives best materia, meaning people will do their best to obtain 10 of all the best gear :P And as thing gets destroyed, gil will dissappear, burn out!

I guess a end-game gear with 7 infused materia would go for 500 mill gil, then 200 mill of those would go to make another 7 infused one

This is a great idea from SE ^^

---

Gil won't disappear, just transferred between players. And the max materia per slot is 5, with 7 slots able to be enhanced (8 if you include shield).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Loony_BoB

If you have gear that is 0%, the memories should become bad memories and thus become negative materia (eg. Enemy Lure). :p

---

Tanks would do it on purpose then ^^

Quote:

---

Success Rates for Forbidden Materia Craft
Success rates will be determined for forbidden materia craft, and success rates will differ based on whether two or three materia are infused. Whether or not the item to be infused with materia is HQ or not will also affect success rates. More powerful materia, such as tier IV, will have lower success rates, and the type of materia already infused will affect success rates as well. The system will calculate these success rates, and the rates will be displayed prior to beginning the infusion process.

---

I really like this option. This allows you to weigh in if the risk is worth the reward especially when dealing with items that may be harder to obtain, e.g. HQ items, since HQ items are going to be more difficult to obtain after the updates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lionix

For those asking of you'd be able to put materia into Rare/Ex gear, I'm pretty sure they had mentioned before you can only socket things you have the skill to make. This is why Alchemist and Culinarians are out of the whole Materia system (Though I remember we argued that Alchemist "make" a dagger or two. We never got an answer, I believe).

If what I'm remembering here is correct, it stands to reason you can't put materia on them rares. I mean, what craft and level would it require?

The repair requirement, maybe...?

---

they don't make dagger
they upgrade dagger

I think the only major issue of crafted gear being outright better than "rare" gear is in the case of weapons. For armor I was looking along the lines of say a Revolutionary's Bliaud vs. Vintage Robe (Looking only at Combat Stats):

Bliaud: INT+5, MND+5, PIE +5, Magic Acc +4, Parry +4

Robe: MP+57 MND +4

The Bliaud essentially has 3 more "Materia-like effects" on it over the robe. I'm guessing rare gear will be balanced so that It is more general purpose but better than what you could potentially get if you tried to make something similar with materia. You'd be able to make that vintage robe as good stat-wise or better than the Bliaud, but it would take a lot of time and luck. You'd need 3 materia attachments to make it comparable and a very risky 4th or 5th materia attemptto make it better. It also can be geared to be super specific (ie: instead of MND add more INT or Magic Potency to make a nuking piece). The balance would need to be that rare gear is powerful immediately and somewhat above the possibilities of materia, but it is not as "malleable" as crafted gear with materia set.

Hence the quotation marks. Even though they very technically don't make it, they upgrade it, they are also the ones to repair it. If you need to have the skills to make an item in order to socket it, what level blacksmith do you think a Blinding Dagger will need? The Blacksmith Level 4 of the Bronze Dagger? The Blinding Dagger itself is Alchemist 14 to "make".

Though... Isn't this kind of out of topic?

Wanted to add: This is an argument nobody can win.
Materia Slotted > Rares:
"Rares are now useless, what's the point of doing a raid now??"

Rares > Materia Slotted:
"Materia is a pointless system, consumes time and money and I can just go do a raid with my shell."

How about, guys guys, listen, guys, how about
Listen, shut up, guys
Guys

How about we just do whichever we like and not use it if you don't like it? You can still turn a profit regardless. Opportunities for everyone.