Tanking in FF14 question

I remember back when you had to level up several classes to get their abilities, and how I immediately went and leveled up Gladiator so I could put FLash on my warrior to help with agro generation on AOE since all Warrior had at the time was Overpower. which ate up a lot of TP.
I don't mind the changes I have seen since I came back, I think many of them are good.
I would like to see a bit more differentiation between the tanks in terms of how they mitigate damage, but this is the most balanced method.

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Originally Posted by Gramlite

So judging from what you said, amongst the three tanks WAR DRK and PLD. Is there really a big difference in playstyle? I'm concerned that PLD might not be needed in endgame because well exactly what you said.

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Since they are so similar, PLD is just as good as the others, really.

Maybe, if you're trying to get into *THE* top progression, the top 1% cutting edge progression raiding, then maybe you'd want to pick the "best" jobs, but anything outside of that, PLD is fine, you don't have to worry about that there.

I do various forms of endgame not including Savage Raiding or Ex Primals, and I've never had trouble with PLD being "unwanted" as it's my main tanking job. And I've never heard of anybody not being able to do Ex Primals as a PLD, or even Savage Raiding.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

There are still some slight differences between the 4 tanks

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While you tried to explain the differences, you didnt list them all, even some of the important ones, while mentioning ones that have 0 impact on encounters, playstyle, or player choice. (Such as WARs having the most burst. Which USED to matter when content actually favored burst more.)
Due to tendentious, I'll not go into the details, despite saying you failed to do the same thing.
In short, most tank DPS is a playstyle difference. (most notably WAR and DRK being nearly idenitcal, but the playstyle is easier to execute for DRK, and easier to understand, along with being faster due to more oGCDs. PLD has a full on rotation. GNB can essentially be boiled down to, when shiney button is ready, press is. (priority system)) Functionally DPS type means nothing. Only the rotation, and how you interact with it, or not at all.
But the largest differences between the tanks in what they bring to a party, is their raid wide mitigations. (which has subtle differences, despite mostly being close enough to the same thing) Mitigation ends up being what matters most, but functionally in a players decision making process, and what it means for your party.
Otherwise, the next biggest difference is how their "non rampart/30%" mitigations work as a whole.(Example, DRK has the least number of mitigations to use for trash pulls, but has the best TB mitigation. PLD has the 2nd least trash pull mitigations, but has the best party raidwide mitigations. GNB is a bit of everything, but not the best at anything)

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Originally Posted by Gou_B

Hmm, I wold say DRK, is the most in Depth AOE rotation.

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IMO they are 2nd place, but close.
oGCD usually boil down to "press when ready" but for PLDs case, they cant/shouldnt do that for physical/magical phases when it comes to FoF, or Req. So thats 2 points PLD have over DRK. (maybe 1, since both have to press their DPS up buffs, the difference being timing requires more thought, before it becomes muscle memory)
it doesnt matter if its single target or AoE, oGCDs need to be keep on CD as soon as possible, w/o a DPS loss being incurred, which means salted earth will functionally be no different than circle of scorn. Nor CnS vs Spirits within. Abbysal drain is essentially a CD for mitigation, as well as DPS, so this is a bit of a grey area. u can argue its 1 more oGCD to make AoE DPS complex, but realistically should be used for survival, like aurora is used on GNB, and Equilibrium for WAR. You even use it in single target scenarios, because its always a bonus, so it's not something id personally put into the "makes AoE DPS more complex"
But then again, this is coming from someone who doesnt feel muscle memory means a rotation is less complex, because you have it down to memory. (example, the number of holy circles before you use confetior is down to muscle memory, but in the begging, you have to watch the mp/timer, to try and make sure u land confetior, or count out the number of presses. which imo is different from looking to see if an ability is lite up or not.)
The line AoE matter less, due to 2 things that all tanks do;
(1) dodge circle AoEs. Which has u dancing outside their circle, and always pointing inward.
(2) pass through trash mobs, and have them face away from the group.
if those 2 things werent done regardless fo which tank you were on, then id give a point to the line aoe requiring more work.

also, for the quietus spam, the ability lights up, so i once again feel this is a lot more straightforward, despite it seeming more random, than the phases in PLD. (But ill agree this is up to opinion) However, I do agree they come close to eachother, regardless of which you feel is more in depth.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I was never a fan of DPS having to slow down because of poorly balanced aggro management systems.
That just doesn't seem like good game design to me, to be honest. DPS jobs should be about being the best at your game to put out the best DPS you can... except..... you can't.

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Luckily FF14 never did that, cuz i hated that in other MMOs, including vanilla WoWs sunder rule.
But when tanks had to handle threat, they never needed DPS not to do dmg. the only thing they needed DPS not to do, was pull. (and that was mostly 2.0 as a non WAR)
Otherwise the tank had the option to use more threat moves for a DPS loss, or in some cases/expansions, DPS had an option to lower their own threat, while maintaining their DPS (and no DPS loss! No holding back!) The problem is, out of those 2, we know which people complained about more, despite one of the 2 is a DPS loss, and only one of those should seem like the viable option.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Otherwise the tank had the option to use more threat moves for a DPS loss, or in some cases/expansions, DPS had an option to lower their own threat, while maintaining their DPS (and no DPS loss! No holding back!) The problem is, out of those 2, we know which people complained about more, despite one of the 2 is a DPS loss, and only one of those should seem like the viable option.

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You mean...outside of a Blackmage opening up with a double flare into Fire 3.
That is the only time I ever had issues with AOE agro and even then, Flash, Flash, Overpower to rapidly regain agro was a thing even if there was no proper usage of threat mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

You mean...outside of a Blackmage opening up with a double flare into Fire 3.
That is the only time I ever had issues with AOE agro and even then, Flash, Flash, Overpower to rapidly regain agro was a thing even if there was no proper usage of threat mitigation.

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It wasnt really an issue, except in small patch cycles, and even then, the BLM goes back to a normal rotation, and u keep spamming ur AoEs and you quickly have hate again. 2.0 was the only cycle that was really bad with threat generation. (really just PLD) But it was still fine. I had my BLM friend go ham, while my MNK friend went ham. I mostly spammed flash, and used stun on the mob my MNK friend was targeting, since he would eventually rip hate using single target, while im spamming flash. (the stun kept him safe till the mob died) If it were any other DPS, actually using AoE, then flash spam was enough. (This was before the nerf to flare)
only a few whiny tanks complained about BLM openers, because they lost hate for 4 seconds, and then got it back again. (Which only PLD really sucked at. WAR, and DRK did just fine. I honestly cant think of a single time I lost hate to a BLM opener as WAR or DRK. They just did too much burst dmg.)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

It wasnt really an issue, except in small patch cycles, and even then, the BLM goes back to a normal rotation, and u keep spamming ur AoEs and you quickly have hate again. 2.0 was the only cycle that was really bad with threat generation. (really just PLD) But it was still fine. I had my BLM friend go ham, while my MNK friend went ham. I mostly spammed flash, and used stun on the mob my MNK friend was targeting, since he would eventually rip hate using single target, while im spamming flash. (the stun kept him safe till the mob died) If it were any other DPS, actually using AoE, then flash spam was enough. (This was before the nerf to flare)
only a few whiny tanks complained about BLM openers, because they lost hate for 4 seconds, and then got it back again. (Which only PLD really sucked at. WAR, and DRK did just fine. I honestly cant think of a single time I lost hate to a BLM opener as WAR or DRK. They just did too much burst dmg.)

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For War? UHhh, it depended on whether or not you had steel cyclone ready since overpower alone was not the best for aoe generation.
If all you had was overpower and flash, BLM can rip agro off really fast on the opener.
If you had Steel cyclone up and bursted? Pfft. nothing was stealing agro from you outside of a Provoke from a paladin.

The game is much easier for tanks now than it was back then. As I've been leveling I've been finding there really is no need for me to work on any other tank class besides Warrior. Which is fine, but the strengths and weaknesses of each tank job has been largely made the same. At this point its a matter of aesthetics.
So for now, I main my warrior for leveling, and I'll work on my dragoon after.

Anything else besides Disciple of the hand is just for kicks.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

But the largest differences between the tanks in what they bring to a party, is their raid wide mitigations. (which has subtle differences, despite mostly being close enough to the same thing) Mitigation ends up being what matters most, but functionally in a players decision making process, and what it means for your party.

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Negative. Raid wide between all tanks is basically the same except PLD gets one extra. However, in none of the savage fights does this matter because raid wide AoE can be mitigated to the point where it does almost nothing to where healers can just OGCD heal all the damage. The only thing comps consider for raid comp is this:
Do we have a WHM? If yes we can easily run a DRK.
That is litteraly the only thought anyone thinks of for composition.
In TEA this is a bit different as DRK is a clear king in that fight if you don't Living Dead and PLD is preferred for extra mitigation spam that is specific to that one fight. WAR is fine in there but GNB is not very good because of its lacking in personal mitigation making it just unnecessarily harder on Healers.

Also who in their right mind actually believes DRK is easier than WAR? Have you PLAYED WAR???!?!?! Just keep your darn damage buff and save upheavel if IR is coming up. Finally don't infuriate during IR. Congrats! That's the depth of skill required for WAR rotation.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

For War? UHhh, it depended on whether or not you had steel cyclone ready since overpower alone was not the best for aoe generation.
If all you had was overpower and flash, BLM can rip agro off really fast on the opener.
If you had Steel cyclone up and bursted? Pfft. nothing was stealing agro from you outside of a Provoke from a paladin.

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(1) Why wouldnt u have a steel cyclone ready? I always made sure to have one ready for the next pull. (obviously not holding it if its still only the middle of the fight, but when the fights almost over, save it up for the next pull, no point wasting it on only 2 mobs.)
(2) Berserk did insane dmg, with massive threat. (and during pacify time frame, u had flash as filler till pacify wore off) (They also had another DPS buff, i think internal release, or raging strikes, i forget what it was called)
(3) Vengance also added to your threat, along with all the self healing. (Thrill of battle, Second Wind, Blood Bath, and later Equilibrium replacing second wind)
(4) WAR had the ability to nullify the dmg penalty, leading to even more threat.
Depending on patch/expansion, berserk wasnt always up, so you alternated between it for 1 pull, and unchained for the other. (Unless doing super pulls, then they were usually both up)

WAR always had an answer for threat. PLD did not. FoF + circle of scorn was the best they had. and then flash spam, or tabbed RoH.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Negative. Raid wide between all tanks is basically the same except PLD gets one extra.

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All tanks are simmilar and practically the same. but even among small differences, one of those small differences is the "bigger" difference. Thats all I was getting at by saying that was the biggest difference. I still seem them as being practically the same. But I will agree I forgot to reply about ultimates like LD.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Also who in their right mind actually believes DRK is easier than WAR? Have you PLAYED WAR???!?!?! Just keep your darn damage buff and save upheavel if IR is coming up. Finally don't infuriate during IR. Congrats! That's the depth of skill required for WAR rotation.

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DRK is the same playstyle.
BS/Fell at 50 gauge, IF you dont have your oGCD 50 gauge spender. Eye/edge for your DPS buff.
otherwise 123.
The core difference is that WARs 2nd gauge isnt a bar showing when the best time to use eye, where as DRK has an easier to read gauge, AND can just oGCD its buff, AND can double up on it. WARs overwrites its own buff, leading to a mess up in the rotation. This is the core reason WAR is "technically" harder. (Otherwise id say they are roughly the same)
Lastly is the other oGCDs that DRK gets to press. These dont functionally have any effort in them, other than, when they shine, press them. WARs only other oGCDs require pressing at correct windows, and not any other time. (but this doesnt mean WAR or DRK are harder in their oGCDs)
Both have AoEs they need to "aim"
The core difference in difficulty between the two tanks, is the minimum play, vs max play. at minimum, DRK never needs TBN, and doesnt have to watch MP. But at maximum play, DRK does need to watch MP.
So DRK is the easier of the two to play for a bad player, since it flows smoother, and doesnt punish as much, but its the harder of the two to play for a good player, since theres more room for min/maxing DRK. (But over all, both are pretty darn close)

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Originally Posted by Gramlite

oh i thought its going to be more engaging in later levels :(

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You pretty much have your choice of perfectly optimizing PLD in certain Savage fights, DPS, or another MMO for that, sadly.

At least GNB takes quite a leap forward in single-target at level 70, and a bit more in AoE at 72, though.

If I was to give all the intricate details of every spell and weaponskill right this instant, the post(s) would likely be too big to absorb. The original poster is starting out the game and first asked if he did more than just pop Tank Stance and spam an AoE like Total Eclipse. His latest question is a concern if the play styles between the tanks are any different. Maybe the big burst will be fun to see since it might look like buzz sawing the enemy during the time. This is also handy if an ally is caged by a mechanic and you want to help burst them out now. If he does want some more details later for the combo bonuses and what exactly each tank mitigation cooldown is, we can help with that. It may be best to let him pick one class first to ask for these details. It is still appreciated that you are adding more to this, Claire.

As for the Gunbreaker part, I simply meant you can't just use Rampart and Heart of Stone in between one off global gap and hope the Continuation buff stays for the next one. You lose that particular Continuation buff doing that unless you purposely stall the GCD usage. It's not impossible to still get both tank buffs up during this time without clipping the GCD much. They just have to be used one at a time for each off global gap. I underlined the GCD skill used.

Gnashing Fang > Rampart + Continuation (Jugular Rip) > Savage Claw > Heart of Stone + Continuation (Abdomen Tear) > Wicked Talon > Blasting Zone + Continuation (Eye Gouge)

This is just in theory assuming you can attack the boss. If the first off global gap had Rampart + Heart of Stone instead, Continuation (Jugular Rip) would fizzle and change to Continuation (Abdomen Tear).