Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

if correcting 1 single shit could potentially make the whole things at least to 'acceptable' level then. YES, that's the frikking main source of problems.

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That.. is not what those words mean. Did I really just read almost two entire pages of people arguing over the semantic difference between "the most obvious problem" and "the source of problems" ?!

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

That.. is not what those words mean. Did I really just read almost two entire pages of people arguing over the semantic difference between "the most obvious problem" and "the source of problems" ?!

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60% of arguments on the internet are over semantic squabbles.
30% are just trolling.
10% are arguments over made up statistics.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

I'm just gonna interject with something I posted elsewhere that's apropos to the conversation.

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Yep, this is what i also think. There are so many technical issues with the story... plot holes, pacing, deus ex machinas and so on. everything bends over backwards just to service the plot the writer wanted to tell. the orange cat is just one of many issues.

To answer unanswered question: The source of the problem is that the writers are absolute talentless amateurs and need to be replaced asap.

Every other question has been done and debated ad nauseam.
Everyone who thinks "Dawntrail and Wuk Lamat is the bestest thing EVARRR" is huffing lethal amounts of copium because they don't wanna admit that their favourite game/second home etc shat their pants.

And now these people pretend that their A-student just "accidentaly" sat on "chocolate cake", despite proof that there was no cake at the school-cafeteria on that day and that EVERYONE CAN SMELL IT.

If you just gobble up this mess of a product, don't be suprised when this game goes down in flames in a few years, which WILL happen with the current writers.
Mark my words.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

To answer unanswered question: The source of the problem is that the writers are absolute talentless amateurs and need to be replaced asap.

Every other question has been done and debated ad nauseam.
Everyone who thinks "Dawntrail and Wuk Lamat is the bestest thing EVARRR" is huffing lethal amounts of copium because they don't wanna admit that their favourite game/second home etc shat their pants.

And now these people pretend that their A-student just "accidentaly" sat on "chocolate cake", despite proof that there was no cake at the school-cafeteria on that day and that EVERYONE CAN SMELL IT.

If you just gobble up this mess of a product, don't be suprised when this game goes down in flames in a few years, which WILL happen with the current writers.
Mark my words.

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I feel I have to add that there IS a middle-ground though.

I quite liked Dawntrail for the most part. It wasn't my favorite, I'll agree that the writing was pretty weak in comparison to previous expansions and it had plenty of flaws and moments which irked me (and I particularly hate that Wuk Lamat interfered with the fight Vs Queen Eternal).

And it didn't have any real 'stand out' moment for me either. I mean:
ARR had the 'Bloody Banquet',
Heavensward had 'Final Steps of Faith',
Stormblood had 'A Requiem for Heroes'
Shadowbringers.... well, "This is our Future. Our Story" is one of the the most epic moments of any of the expansions
Endwalker actually had a few for me, although 'The Walk' (Ultima Thule) and Zenos coming to our aid immediately spring to mind

But I don't feel that Dawntrail had a standout moment like those. I might have said that Vrtra's surprise appearance in 'The Protector and the Destroyer' was close had it not leaned so heavily on Endwalker themes.

Eitherway - I can't say that it's the worst MMO story I've encountered by any means.

The main problem isnt Wuk Lamat. Its the writers and their lack of delivery. This shines in the characters not living up to expectations, the pacing being bad, the music direction being borderline on drugs at phases and the English voice direction / performance lacking.
I join in the opinion of "if you give them leeway of anykind with this, they will use it and we get a similar hodgepodge of mediocrity and at worst crap because you gave them permission by not saying anything."
So make it known, I think the story is garbage and the game needs to evolve from this archaic formula its been pumping out patch after patch. I would shut up, but I still have enough goodwill to stick around instead of unsubbing.
We got patches until 8.0, but if theres no response to all this? No proper QoL? No mention of making the gameplay better? Ill be gone by 8.0

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Originally Posted by StormChase

The most hypocritical part of it for me is that almost everything Wuk Lamat is hated for, the WOL also does at some point.

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The difference here is that the WoL is the PLAYER CHARACTER.

As an NPC they would also be hated.
Wuk Lamat is a talking NPC that takes the spot of a silent stand in for the player, the exact same spot.
Be it bonding with NPC‘s, overcoming the odds or be in the middle of the action.
She comes in and pushes the player character out without leaving them anything.

Wuk Lamats problem is that she is written as the MC player character in a game that already has that character for many years now.

What annoys people is that their character is left with absolutely nothing. No role, no agenda, no reason.
DT is a Wuk Lamat show in an MMORPG sidelining the player character.

You can like that and be happy with that, all fine.
But don’t act like those of us who actually care about our characters and are miffed about that change in direction are in the wrong for that.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Shadowbringers.... well, "This is our Future. Our Story" is one of the the most epic moments of any of the expansions

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I'd also add Tesleen's transformation, the gunshot, and pretty much the entirety of 5.3. HW is still my favorite overall, but ShB had some great highlights.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

To answer unanswered question: The source of the problem is that the writers are absolute talentless amateurs and need to be replaced asap.

Every other question has been done and debated ad nauseam.
Everyone who thinks "Dawntrail and Wuk Lamat is the bestest thing EVARRR" is huffing lethal amounts of copium because they don't wanna admit that their favourite game/second home etc shat their pants.

And now these people pretend that their A-student just "accidentaly" sat on "chocolate cake", despite proof that there was no cake at the school-cafeteria on that day and that EVERYONE CAN SMELL IT.

If you just gobble up this mess of a product, don't be suprised when this game goes down in flames in a few years, which WILL happen with the current writers.
Mark my words.

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Give Yoshi-P a call and read out everything you just said. I'm sure he'll love your feedback.

but WhY¿‽¿
wUk lAmAt iS fInE¡¡

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Originally Posted by StormChase

Give Yoshi-P a call and read out everything you just said. I'm sure he'll love your feedback.

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Well, feedback isn't necessarily supposed to be pleasant.
First and foremost, it's supposed to show creators what people loved and hated about a product they made. Especially then when it's a product the customer paid for.
Feedback doesn't have to be sugarcoated. And the one who gets it isn't supposed to 'love it' either. The only thing important is, that they use it to better the product they made.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

To answer unanswered question: The source of the problem is that the writers are absolute talentless amateurs and need to be replaced asap.

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Originally Posted by sylphlands

Exactly this. Hiroi is a talentless hack, genuinely one of the worst writers I've ever seen. Everything he touches turns to slop. If they don't swap out the writing team soon...I don't even want to think about it actually lol, the patches and DT were painful enough. The thought of the writing quality staying this poor is depressing.

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I'll bite the bullet here and take the potential lashing: I don't think Hiroi and the other new writers are exactly "terrible". While some are new, like the people who did the Myths of the Realm alliance raid story, some have written the smaller side stuff like the Job/Role Quests and some other side quest things. Hiroi for example did the Pandaemonium series and also worked on the Return to Ivalice story and Bozja's story, and I believe also lead 6.1 and 6.2 at the very least for Endwalker's post-patch MSQ.

HOWEVER!...They currently are not MSQ quality writers.

Going from writing non-mandatory side stories/smaller-ish content to writing a story that has to carry a whole expansion/post expansion while also building up something for the future of the whole game is a BIG jump from what they are no doubt use to.

It seems pretty clear based on what has been written in the past by Hiroi and the new writers that the potential IS there. The problem is that he and the other new writing team just isn't ready yet to carry a whole expansion with their writing quality, and it shows given how massively split the Endwalker Post-Patch MSQ and Dawntrail's current MSQ have made players. Yes, Hiroi and the other new writers are only really going to learn through actual experience and trying things out along the way given the story is pretty much a blank slate with small things leftover, but if Yoshi-P, Ishiwaka, and Oda wanted to keep their "We'll just take a backseat and let Hiroi and the new writers do their own thing" approach going forward, then they need to immediately throw that mindset in the dumpster and oversee Hiroi and the new writers more carefully until they can get their footing with what they're putting out.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

Well, feedback isn't necessarily supposed to be pleasant.
First and foremost, it's supposed to show creators what people loved and hated about a product they made. Especially then when it's a product the customer paid for.
Feedback doesn't have to be sugarcoated. And the one who gets it isn't supposed to 'love it' either. The only thing important is, that they use it to better the product they made.

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Game developers aren't usually inclined to listen to feedback that sounds like it came out of Eltingville.

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Originally Posted by ZXN

I'll bite the bullet here and take the potential lashing: I don't think Hiroi and the other new writers are exactly "terrible". While some are new, like the people who did the Myths of the Realm alliance raid story, some have written the smaller side stuff like the Job/Role Quests and some other side quest things. Hiroi for example did the Pandaemonium series and also worked on the Return to Ivalice story and Bozja's story, and I believe also lead 6.1 and 6.2 at the very least for Endwalker's post-patch MSQ.

HOWEVER!...They currently are not MSQ quality writers.

Going from writing non-mandatory side stories/smaller-ish content to writing a story that has to carry a whole expansion/post expansion while also building up something for the future of the whole game is a BIG jump from what they are no doubt use to.

It seems pretty clear based on what has been written in the past by Hiroi and the new writers that the potential IS there. The problem is that he and the other new writing team just isn't ready yet to carry a whole expansion with their writing quality, and it shows given how massively split the Endwalker Post-Patch MSQ and Dawntrail's current MSQ have made players. Yes, Hiroi and the other new writers are only really going to learn through actual experience and trying things out along the way given the story is pretty much a blank slate with small things leftover, but if Yoshi-P, Ishiwaka, and Oda wanted to keep their "We'll just take a backseat and let Hiroi and the new writers do their own thing" approach going forward, then they need to immediately throw that mindset in the dumpster and oversee Hiroi and the new writers more carefully until they can get their footing with what they're putting out.

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My brother in Hydelin, you can't be seriously considering giving these people a second chance.
There are so many blatant problems, even with the foundation of the worldbuiling that you cannot explain this away with in-experience.

To be fair, I wasn't really vibing with the stories of the raids you mentioned, and to be honest, it was side-content I didn't care much for.
I bet if I did an actual deep-dive into those stories, I can identifiy a lot of issues, that culminated in the absolute shitshow of Dawntrails MSQ.

So no, no way in hell I will give these people the benefit of the doubt. They need to go.
I don't care what they do, but I don't want them anywhere near the next MSQ.

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Originally Posted by ZXN

HOWEVER!...They currently are not MSQ quality writers.

Going from writing non-mandatory side stories/smaller-ish content to writing a story that has to carry a whole expansion/post expansion while also building up something for the future of the whole game is a BIG jump from what they are no doubt use to.

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That's fair! I think Hiroi was woefully unprepared to write an entire expansion. I have issues with...most of his writing, unfortunately, except for the SHB caster role quest. That was a random high point for him and I genuinely enjoyed that quest. (I actually found out after the fact that he wrote it, which really shocked me lol.) I had a great time in Pandae even if there were some writing decisions that I thought could have been better.

It makes me wonder why he was chosen to do an entire expac right on the heels of Endwalker, especially with such little experience writing something so big. It seems like an extremely risky move for the team to take.

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Originally Posted by sylphlands

That's fair! I think Hiroi was woefully unprepared to write an entire expansion. I have issues with...most of his writing, unfortunately, except for the SHB caster role quest. That was a random high point for him and I genuinely enjoyed that quest. (I actually found out after the fact that he wrote it, which really shocked me lol.) I had a great time in Pandae even if there were some writing decisions that I thought could have been better.

It makes me wonder why he was chosen to do an entire expac right on the heels of Endwalker, especially with such little experience writing something so big. It seems like an extremely risky move for the team to take.

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They presumably either weren't adequately preparing new talent, or the new talent that they were preparing were assigned to the unnamed project instead of XIV.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

My brother in Hydelin, you can't be seriously considering giving these people a second chance.
There are so many blatant problems, even with the foundation of the worldbuiling that you cannot explain this away with in-experience.

To be fair, I wasn't really vibing with the stories of the raids you mentioned, and to be honest, it was side-content I didn't care much for.
I bet if I did an actual deep-dive into those stories, I can identifiy a lot of issues, that culminated in the absolute shitshow of Dawntrails MSQ.

So no, no way in hell I will give these people the benefit of the doubt. They need to go.
I don't care what they do, but I don't want them anywhere near the next MSQ.

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Okay...then let's follow your line and go from there, and I'm going to go off the assumption that when you say "they need to go" you mean not fired, because the entire context changes based on that small detail.

They get rid of Hiroi and the current writing team, just like a few players have demanded. What then? What's the next step? Well that would be bringing back the Ishiakawa, Oda, and the previous writing team. Well that seems easy eno-wait...What do you mean they don't want to come back and do the MSQ again? Well alright, next plan: replace Hiroi and the current team with ANOTHER new team. That'll-What do you mean there isn't another team that has been trained and is ready?

What then?

Strong-arm Ishiwaka, Oda, and the old writers and give them the ultimatum of "Either you all do the MSQ story again or you're fired? Attempt to make another new team from scratch, throw them right on the MSQ and hope they don't give the same results? Do you go right for the throat and give Yoshi-P the boot for "not being prepared enough for this situation and making things this way?"

I am not trying to push your buttons, or troll you, or insult you, or make any excuses for the current team when I say what I am saying. Your anger and frustration at the current state of the story is understandable. Trust me: Dawntrail was filled with so many holes even Swiss cheese would be concerned for it and I have pointed out how fucking abysmal the story is. I am also sure Ishiwaka, Oda, and the old writers would absolutely come back if asked or if they felt they had no other choice. But while the anger for quite a few people is currently high on what we got, you also have to genuinely consider the possibility that there simply ISN'T a Plan B, or C, or D and onward that they can fall back on currently.

And as for a "second chance": this feels more like their third to me. Hiroi took over with the Endwalker patch quests, at least 6.1/.2 anyway, and I personally hated the Zero story. So to me: Dawntrail's patch MSQ is their third chance. If they fuck this up then three strikes you're out: into the dumpster.

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Originally Posted by ZXN

But while the anger for quite a few people is currently high on what we got, you also have to genuinely consider the possibility that there simply ISN'T a Plan B, or C, or D and onward that they can fall back on currently.[/B]

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If this is true and they really don't have a plan B than the game is cooked and some higher ups in Squares management have to resin too.

If the current writers are really the only ones available, then they need WAY more oversight.
One of the reasons DT turned out like it did is that Yoshi-P and other important people were leeched to work on FF16, a cheap game-of-thrones-rippoff hiding behind kaijuu spectacle.
That's why he couldn't have a closer look to the writing.

But to be clear, I very much prefer for Hiroi and his colleages to be FIRED.
This much incompetence is unacceptable and need to have consequences.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

But to be clear, I very much prefer for Hiroi and his colleages to be FIRED.
This much incompetence is unacceptable and need to have consequences.

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That's the thing. If Hiroi put out some good siqequest stuff, then sure, just toss him back in the sidequest dungeon and never let him back out. But even all his sidequest stuff was mediocre. The fact he was promoted makes me think it's some sort of internal Squaresoft politics where it was essentially "his turn" (I've read that's not uncommon at Japanese workplaces) because Ishikawa was promoted. I don't think he did anything that was universally loved like Ishikawa's Alchemist and Dark Knight quests.

If they don't have someone else to take over for him, and if Ishikawa doesn't wanna come back to do the MSQ, then they desperately need to look externally.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

That's the thing. If Hiroi put out some good siqequest stuff, then sure, just toss him back in the sidequest dungeon and never let him back out. But even all his sidequest stuff was mediocre. The fact he was promoted makes me think it's some sort of internal Squaresoft politics where it was essentially "his turn" (I've read that's not uncommon at Japanese workplaces) because Ishikawa was promoted. I don't think he did anything that was universally loved like Ishikawa's Alchemist and Dark Knight quests.

If they don't have someone else to take over for him, and if Ishikawa doesn't wanna come back to do the MSQ, then they desperately need to look externally.

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The Pandæmonium quests are mediocre?

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Originally Posted by StormChase

The Pandæmonium quests are mediocre?

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I thought the use of some characters was OK. I liked Athena as a concept since she was an inverse of Hydaelyn. Getting some Elidibus was nice. But Eric's daddy and mommy issues were annoying (also I sense Hiroi really likes that theme), and the concept as a whole felt kinda ham-fisted. I wasn't really invested either because the fights were boring (not Hiroi's fault, but I admit my biases.)

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

If this is true and they really don't have a plan B than the game is cooked and some higher ups in Squares management have to resin too.

If the current writers are really the only ones available, then they need WAY more oversight.
One of the reasons DT turned out like it did is that Yoshi-P and other important people were leeched to work on FF16, a cheap game-of-thrones-rippoff hiding behind kaijuu spectacle.
That's why he couldn't have a closer look to the writing.

But to be clear, I very much prefer for Hiroi and his colleages to be FIRED.
This much incompetence is unacceptable and need to have consequences.

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While I personally think them getting fired might be a bit extreme, I will say if the post-patch MSQ for Dawntrail doesn't deliver SOMETHING storywise to make up for whatever the hell the 7.0 MSQ was, even if they are overseen during the post-patch MSQ more closely [as long as Yoshi-P was serious about taking the feedback into account and fixing things anyway], then Hiroi and the new team should indeed be knocked back down to side-quest/side-story makers since they just simply don't have what it takes to carry a MSQ level story.

Sure some might say "If Dawntrail's post MSQ wasn't good then it'll get better in 8.0! Don't be such a downer!" but...WoW players have played with that "It'll get better next expansion" mindset for literal years and that mindset made so many players miserable. Nobody will enjoy the "throw things at the wall and see what sticks" mentality if it takes until 8.X, 9.0, 9.X, or even 10.0+ for Hiroi and the new blood to cook something up that actually finally "sticks", since that means literal years of threads like this one popping up with constant back and forths day after day after day. Sure we'll all be happy when we "get another Shadowbringers" again, but it won't be fun if it takes 6-8+ years to get to that point again.

Regardless of what happens though: whatever is going on internally for building up writers needs a BIG boost because eventually it WILL reach a point where writers like Ishikawa and Oda will just flat out not want to do it anymore or just retire, and it'll be rough not having a group and/or specific person properly prepared to pass on the torch to continue if they cannot trust the new blood to handle it.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

I'd also add Tesleen's transformation, the gunshot, and pretty much the entirety of 5.3. HW is still my favorite overall, but ShB had some great highlights.

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Honestly I was unmoved by Tesleen's transformation, because of the circumstances of how she let herself get killed by the Sin Eater. I basically just shrugged my shoulders and said,"So she's too stupid to live in this world apparently. NEVER turn your back on a Sineater..."

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Originally Posted by ZXN

Sure some might say "If Dawntrail's post MSQ wasn't good then it'll get better in 8.0! Don't be such a downer!" but...WoW players have played with that "It'll get better next expansion" mindset for literal years and that mindset made so many players miserable.

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I'm just scared man, I don't know where to go if FF14 goes the same road as WoW or Pokemon (Sword/Shield), Genshin peaked with Sumeru and is becoming more and more of a snoozefest.
I tried Guildwars2 but it needed way more visual polish and actual controllersupport (not judging if its good or bad, mind you).

If I could make a wish, I would wish for Ryushiki07 (author of Higurashi/Umineko) to write the next expac.
But alas, we're stuck with Wookie and her sycophants.

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Originally Posted by ZXN

.WoW players have played with that "It'll get better next expansion" mindset for literal years

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Funny enough from what I have heard from some friends playing WoW, the best expansion since probably Legion, with good storytelling leaning to what FFXIV was celebrated for (with a player character more relevant in the story for example) is released the same year that the worst FFXIV expansion (by my standard and what we can see on reviews / forums & co).

I'll give WoW a chance if they add actual cotnrollersupport and remove all addons.

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

I'll give WoW a chance if they add actual cotnrollersupport and remove all addons.

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Controller support could happen with Microsoft.
Remove all addons will never, ever be done, sorry, it's like core part of the gameplay.

Wow something sweet baby in was involved it is hated? I for one am shocked

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

I'll give WoW a chance if they add actual cotnrollersupport and remove all addons.

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As far as I know there is an addon for WoW that adds controller support, though I do not know its name. Supposedly also works well with the Steam Deck.

First off. I'm not going to talk about all of this "Woke Lamat" shit. I see it as childish and a waste of time. Either the story is good and interesting, or it's not. Leaving that there.

My expectation was that this msq would be different. Keeping expectations in check is something I'm practiced at. I thought the idea of WOL is just going adventuring now would be a nice change of pace even. The character Wuk Lamat comes off as a very young and insecure child of royalty. But I guess because the plot says so, WOL has to say yes to what they ask because WOL is so nice and wants to help. Seems like going on new adventures could be done without being dragged into some problems in another part of the world. Right off the bat it seems obvious that it's going to become about the next world wide threat to existence.

I enjoyed going through the whole "young challengers for the throne" thing. It was easy to pick out the flaws of each one. But I'm thinking they're going with an "all leaders are flawed" approach. Having the WOL travel with Wuk Lamat makes sense being that her's are the most glaring weaknesses on the surface. The point they kept driving home is that she cares more for the people deep down. And sees that as the main priority. Which I don't have a problem with.

The problem for me begins after the dome appears. This is the point where WOL and the scions should say, "step aside, well take it from here". But for some reason, Wuk Lamat is in control and some how magically knows exactly what we need to do in a gloabal crisis. And having WOL follow her around like her pet is just started grating on my nerves. Are we baby sitting this kid? This goof who has the life experience of a toddler is somehow commanding a group of people who acutally saved THE FUCKING UNIVERSE. I don't want to play "this" game. This, lets be Wuk Lamats best friend even though we just spent most of the story baby sitting her game. I don't feel like her best friend. When she asks WOL to live in the palace, I was like nonononono fuck off with that shit. I'm done.

And then. we fight Zoraal Ja. Up to that point, its all about how Wuk Lamat is gonna do it all on her own and we need to stand back becuase this is family business. WOL fights Zoraal Ja. WOL kills Zoraal Ja. Because that's how this game works. Bad guys fight WOL, bad guys die. And the story line acts like that isn't what just happend. I was so irritated by that, I almost lost my dinner. Which is way too strong of a reaction. But that's what it made me want to do. Puke up the whole thing. Spit it out like rancid meat.

I've read and heard people saying that the problem isn't the character, Wuk Lamat's character is a symptom of the overall problem with the msq. That may be the case. But for me, the problem has led me to the point where I do not want to see that character on my screen anymore. Their presence is irritatiing. And I'm not sure how that gets better.

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Originally Posted by oldcodger

The problem for me begins after the dome appears. This is the point where WOL and the scions should say, "step aside, well take it from here". But for some reason, Wuk Lamat is in control and some how magically knows exactly what we need to do in a gloabal crisis. And having WOL follow her around like her pet is just started grating on my nerves. Are we baby sitting this kid? This goof who has the life experience of a toddler is somehow commanding a group of people who acutally saved THE FUCKING UNIVERSE. I don't want to play "this" game. This, lets be Wuk Lamats best friend even though we just spent most of the story baby sitting her game. I don't feel like her best friend. When she asks WOL to live in the palace, I was like nonononono fuck off with that shit. I'm done.

And then. we fight Zoraal Ja. Up to that point, its all about how Wuk Lamat is gonna do it all on her own and we need to stand back becuase this is family business. WOL fights Zoraal Ja. WOL kills Zoraal Ja. Because that's how this game works. Bad guys fight WOL, bad guys die. And the story line acts like that isn't what just happend. I was so irritated by that, I almost lost my dinner. Which is way too strong of a reaction. But that's what it made me want to do. Puke up the whole thing. Spit it out like rancid meat.

I've read and heard people saying that the problem isn't the character, Wuk Lamat's character is a symptom of the overall problem with the msq. That may be the case. But for me, the problem has led me to the point where I do not want to see that character on my screen anymore. Their presence is irritatiing. And I'm not sure how that gets better.

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This is a nice way of writing what I wanted to say, after level 95, her story should've been done, and we back in charge, but that didn't happen :( That's also when I started to really dislike Wuk Lamat

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Originally Posted by honest_psycho

I'm just scared man, I don't know where to go if FF14 goes the same road as WoW or Pokemon (Sword/Shield), Genshin peaked with Sumeru and is becoming more and more of a snoozefest.
I tried Guildwars2 but it needed way more visual polish and actual controllersupport (not judging if its good or bad, mind you).

If I could make a wish, I would wish for Ryushiki07 (author of Higurashi/Umineko) to write the next expac.
But alas, we're stuck with Wookie and her sycophants.

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And you're right to be concerned. While I am sure Endwalker had it's fair share of back and forth, I don't recall said discourse being this bad. Hell: we're barely 2 months into Dawntrail and we already have a thread with 300 pages and it's only going to keep increasing as the patches release depending on what they do with the story and characters. That should be a wake-up call to the devs/writers, if they have even viewed this thread along with the other threads, that something has to change, or at the very least they need to take their "We'll fix and modify things through the patches from the feedback we get" seriously like they said they would. We simply won't know for sure until the patches release, and even then, we won't know how long until we see changes, if any.

If I remember correctly they mentioned that the voices are normally recorded about 6-9+ months in advance. So theoretically: we could see absolutely zero changes to the overall story plan for 2-3 whole patches if they prepared everything that far in advance. Sure they might be able to do a "rush order" of sorts and re-record lines, but that completely depends on the characters they plan to have speaking / if their VA is even available, plus there is the possibility the voice actors just won't re-record their stuff or voice anything period due to the SAG-AFTRA video game strike.

Prime example: Sena, Wuk Lamat's VA, is taking part in the strike. If she has a contract through the patches then she can work just fine. But what if she doesn't? Is she going to refuse to come back and voice Wuk? What if she does have a contract, but still refuses in support of the strike? What if the English VA's for Koana, Bakool, and any of the other characters also refuse? What then? Replace the English VA's for ones that can mimic their voices good enough? Potentially destroy the game in an instant by going the route of AI voices? Just not have Wuk / Koana / Bakool / Etc not speak and potentially screw over the German/French/Japanese voice actors/actresses because English ones went "Nah, we ain't doing it, so deal with it?"

These patches are a MUCH more slippery slope then I think a lot of people realize right now and these next two years are pretty much a minefield for Yoshi-P and the other devs to navigate without blowing themselves to smithereens.

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Originally Posted by oldcodger

And then. we fight Zoraal Ja. Up to that point, its all about how Wuk Lamat is gonna do it all on her own and we need to stand back becuase this is family business. WOL fights Zoraal Ja. WOL kills Zoraal Ja. Because that's how this game works. Bad guys fight WOL, bad guys die. And the story line acts like that isn't what just happend. I was so irritated by that, I almost lost my dinner. Which is way too strong of a reaction. But that's what it made me want to do. Puke up the whole thing. Spit it out like rancid meat.

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Whilst that story element did irk me a little, I let it slip because, in fairness, Wuk Lamat knew Zoraal Ja pretty much all her life and certainly knew him - as a person - far better than the Warrior of Light could have.

No - it was the final battle that really annoyed me as there was no such excuse there. She didn't know Sphene any better than the Warrior of Light did.
Wuk Lamat's interference in that fight was inexcusable and completely unnecessary. Queen Eternal outright said that the Warrior of Light was the "single greatest threat" - as should be the case. And this worked really well - it made sense and put the WoL back in the spotlight! Fighting the big-bad is what the WoL does best and the first segment of the Trial was fantastic. And then Wuk Lamat gatecrashes the fight and makes herself the single greatest threat. This was the single greatest insult the writers could've presented us with in my opinion; it undermined the Warrior of Light's significance. And so far as I am concerned she didn't do or say anything that couldn't have happened without her direct involvement!

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Wuk Lamat's interference in that fight was inexcusable and completely unnecessary.

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I just like how as divisive as DT is overall, this seems to be the moment everyone agreed was the final nail.

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Originally Posted by oldcodger

When she asks WOL to live in the palace, I was like nonononono fuck off with that shit. I'm done.

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What really infuriated me about that was that we never got the chance to refuse. When Koana comes to tell us she was going to offer us a place in her administration, we don't get to say "No thanks, not interested". The next day when she offers we don't get to say "No thanks, not interested". And at the end she says something along the lines of "I knew you wouldn't accept anyway". No you didn't. I never got the chance to tell you and you do NOT know me well enough to make that assumption. But the writers gave the WoL no agency this expansion so we never got to tell her we didn't want what she was offering and that really irriated me.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

I just like how as divisive as DT is overall, this seems to be the moment everyone agreed was the final nail.

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It's because they didn't lay the groundwork to establish a reason why it was necessary.

The Scions praying for us to be protected in Endwalker made sense. We had been through hell and back with them. They were our found family. Of course in a place where emotions rule, our connecton to them will have power. Even Zenos breaking in makes sense. Whatever people might think of him and his reasons for coming to help us, that man has been our biggest cheerleader. He pops in and is like "Isn't it dead yet?" because he has absolute confidence that *of course* we can beat this. We're us. We can do anything. He's kind of an interesting foil in that regard to G'raha because they both read about heroes when they were younger and wanted to meet one. He hero worships us in his own way. Plus the WoL had just sent all their friends away and was possibly thinking they weren't coming back. I can't help but think someone showing up with absolute confidence in us in a realm where emotion has power didn't strengthen us in some manner.

But we didn't have that history with Wuk Lamat. They tried to tell us in Dawntrail that our characters were close and best friends and relied on each other but they didn't lay the groundwork so the player could come to feel that way toward the character. That's why it was so off-putting and insulting. Especially after they had thrown that token "You're the biggest threat" line in there from Queen Eternal. There was nothing we needed from Wuk Lamat so she felt like an invader.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

What really infuriated me about that was that we never got the chance to refuse. When Koana comes to tell us she was going to offer us a place in her administration, we don't get to say "No thanks, not interested". The next day when she offers we don't get to say "No thanks, not interested". And at the end she says something along the lines of "I knew you wouldn't accept anyway". No you didn't. I never got the chance to tell you and you do NOT know me well enough to make that assumption. But the writers gave the WoL no agency this expansion so we never got to tell her we didn't want what she was offering and that really irriated me.

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I think the game forcing me to be Wuk’s best buddy after only knowing her for days is one of the most annoying things.

They thought way too much everyone would be head over heels for her and probably were really sure to be flooded with people begging for more of her.
I really wonder what exactly made them so sure of that.
Why did they think that she would be liked to this extend to the point of centering an entire expansion around her?

I am truly puzzled by that.

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Originally Posted by Vhel

Wow something sweet baby in was involved it is hated? I for one am shocked

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There is, I've looked at it and it's not great. WoW needs a lot more buttons on the Hotbar than FFXIV does, and it's menus aren't designed with controller support at this point.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

What really infuriated me about that was that we never got the chance to refuse. When Koana comes to tell us she was going to offer us a place in her administration, we don't get to say "No thanks, not interested". The next day when she offers we don't get to say "No thanks, not interested". And at the end she says something along the lines of "I knew you wouldn't accept anyway". No you didn't. I never got the chance to tell you and you do NOT know me well enough to make that assumption. But the writers gave the WoL no agency this expansion so we never got to tell her we didn't want what she was offering and that really irriated me.

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That part was a certified "Wuk Lamat comes off as a self insert Mary Sue OC" moment that made me shake my head in disbelief. Also, could you imagine the uproar if the PC was made to accept, and now suddenly patches are administrative duties in Tulliyolal? Hells I feel the forum would explode.

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Originally Posted by ovIm

That part was a certified "Wuk Lamat comes off as a self insert Mary Sue OC" moment that made me shake my head in disbelief. Also, could you imagine the uproar if the PC was made to accept, and now suddenly patches are administrative duties in Tulliyolal? Hells I feel the forum would explode.

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The "Island Factory Sanctuary" of DT is we reconcider and accept the offer and are given to own a patch of land in the vicinity of Tuliyollal and now have to manage rebuilding the town located in it while also paying taxes. And no, it has no player housing despite literally being "ours". Enjoy