Black Mage Sanctuary - A Guide to DPS

So... how is BLM looking on O1S?
I understand its been beaten by PUGs.

And O2S maybe?

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Welp. Now you can use five F4s without even needing B4. And no, you can't use 7 F4s with blizzard 4 making it even more undesirable. Now B4 only grants you a single F4 :( Why SE?


Short or long rotations doesn't really matter. Foul doesn't matter either because you can place it anywhere in both rotations and it'll add the same weight in the end since it's on the same timer for both (30 secs). Just like I posted in a previous topic, if 4.0 is better PPS than 3.0 without foul, 4.0 must be better than 3.0 with foul. Why? Because Foul is a constant in every rotation.

Or that's what I would like to say. But now you can use five F4s on 3.0 making it the clear superior choice. The only downside is that you might need to wait for a server mana tic.

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Fast tick > T3 > 3.0 unconditionally.
If the tick is super slow, then you B4 as filler and do 4.0.
New Foul really fits anywhere now (just tested), so if I get a fastish tick I'll 3.0 100%.

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

So... how is BLM looking on O1S?
I understand its been beaten by PUGs.

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easy got about 4500dps(fflogs ~4280) with mixed 4.0-3.0 rotation

Did some susano EX
It seemed to be that the new CD on triplecast synch with every thunder dance can some1 confirm?

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Did some susano EX
It seemed to be that the new CD on triplecast synch with every thunder dance can some1 confirm?

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You may need to delay a Triple usage depending on your clear time, but it's possible to have it up for every Levinbolt, yes.
In fact, you now have cds for every mechanic in that fight, if you plan your usage well.

So, what are we meldin in new craft gear?

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Fast tick > T3 > 3.0 unconditionally.
If the tick is super slow, then you B4 as filler and do 4.0.
New Foul really fits anywhere now (just tested), so if I get a fastish tick I'll 3.0 100%.

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Ya, I'm doing pretty much a mix of both rotations right now. If I know I will be able to cast 5 FIVs on AF without B4 (fast tick) and I will have foul for the start of the next ice cycle, I do 3.0 Otherwise 4.0.

The problem with 3xf4 - f1 - 2xf4 is that you end up with 480 mp left, which means that either foul or thundercloud should be ready to cast on umbral phase, otherwise you're left on mercy of server mana ticks.
But it definitely viable once executed properly.

Is spellspeed top priorty? Im pretty happy at 1000 ss but just wanting to see...

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Originally Posted by Nosphuratu

Is spellspeed top priorty? Im pretty happy at 1000 ss but just wanting to see...

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You still need to turret and getting your spells off quicker means you can deal with upcoming mechanics quicker.

love the tripple-cast CD reduction to 60 sec..., hope they don't nerf it to like 75 or 80 sec
at 69 sec, it lines up really well with many mechanics if preserved / placed well

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

EDIT: love the tripple-cast CD reduction to 60 sec..., hope they don't nerf it to like 75 or 80 sec,... at 60 it lines up really well with many mechanics if preserved / placed well

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^corrected

Why didn't you just edit the post instead of quoting it to edit it?

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

Short or long rotations doesn't really matter. Foul doesn't matter either because you can place it anywhere in both rotations and it'll add the same weight in the end since it's on the same timer for both (30 secs). Just like I posted in a previous topic, if 4.0 is better PPS than 3.0 without foul, 4.0 must be better than 3.0 with foul. Why? Because Foul is a constant in every rotation.

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Blizzard 4 is not a constant in every rotation and every time you can replace it with Foul it's a dps win. Even ignoring the fact that you can now do five F4s by default, it's imperative that cast Foul instead of - not in addition to - B4 whenever you can.

Like, Thunder is also castable in either astral or umbral. Why do we use it in umbral? Because then it effectively generates mp at the same time as it deals damage.

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Originally Posted by Ferrinus

Blizzard 4 is not a constant in every rotation and every time you can replace it with Foul it's a dps win. Even ignoring the fact that you can now do five F4s by default, it's imperative that cast Foul instead of - not in addition to - B4 whenever you can.

Like, Thunder is also castable in either astral or umbral. Why do we use it in umbral? Because then it effectively generates mp at the same time as it deals damage.

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Please understand that my motivation for saying this was avoiding Fouls in the AF phase in 4.0 (you'd need to sack a Fire IV if you didn't have Sharpcast) and the fact that, again in 4.0, double Foul in UI was super tight (like, drop UI tight). So you should plan your UI cycles to avoid handling Foul under of overflow down the road.

None of this matters, because the 3.0 rotation with 5xF4s now actually wins VS the 4.0 one unconditionally.
With the new, 0MP foul and the 1min cd Triple, this approximation of "we can pull Foul anywhere" more or less holds.
You'd still want it in UI to ensure full mana for the next AF cycle, but it's not concerning placing it somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Nosphuratu

Is spellspeed top priorty? Im pretty happy at 1000 ss but just wanting to see...

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Spell Speed will always be king for blm unless they make some real drastic changes by 5.0.
1000 SS is rather low

I'm only doing the long B4 rotation whenever i have LL & Triple Cast up (and convert every 2nd time this happens), doing the 5xF4 rotation otherwise, seems to work out ok.

So I'm a little confused. With the cooldown reduction of Triple Cast to 60 seconds... It doesn't line up with leylines? Cant use it sooner than that because then you wont have triple cast up for leylines. I know I'm doing something wrong so please correct me.

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

So I'm a little confused. With the cooldown reduction of Triple Cast to 60 seconds... It doesn't line up with leylines? Cant use it sooner than that because then you wont have triple cast up for leylines. I know I'm doing something wrong so please correct me.

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Those two lining up isn't important (it may even be desirable to offset them).
It's helpful if they both line up. And they will, if you're using them on cooldown.
But don't shy away on pushing a Triple back for mechanics (even if you later push a Convert back).
Understand that pushing a Convert back only harms you if it costs you one usage over the fight.

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

So I'm a little confused. With the cooldown reduction of Triple Cast to 60 seconds... It doesn't line up with leylines? Cant use it sooner than that because then you wont have triple cast up for leylines. I know I'm doing something wrong so please correct me.

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Yes they don't line up, what i do is use that 2nd triple without LL, when LL comes off cd i delay using it for around 20 seconds until triple comes off cd a 3rd time.

Hm, with 1322 SS I have some troubles with Foul-Timing. Without B4 I need Foul to be ready, after B3, otherwise I have to wait for mana tick, but with BCD of 2.35 sec, Foul is not always ready after second 5x-F4-rotation, esp. when I have bad luck with procs.
I tried now: 8xF4, 5xF4, 5xF4 (Foul issue can happen), 6xF4 (LL ready), 5xF4, 5xF4 (Foul issue can happen even more), 8xF4 and so on.

Do I have to 6xF4, when Triple is ready? That should besomething like
8xF4, 5xF4, 6xF4 (Triple ready), 6xF4 (LL ready), 5xF4, 6xF4 (Triple ready), 8xF4 and so on.

edit:
okay, did some more rotations and it seems, likeI just had some very bad luck with procs on my first tries. With some procs, Foul is ready after B3. But still a thing to keep your eye on. For me it seems like BLM git more complicated with 4.05 ^^

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

Please understand that my motivation for saying this was avoiding Fouls in the AF phase in 4.0 (you'd need to sack a Fire IV if you didn't have Sharpcast) and the fact that, again in 4.0, double Foul in UI was super tight (like, drop UI tight). So you should plan your UI cycles to avoid handling Foul under of overflow down the road.

None of this matters, because the 3.0 rotation with 5xF4s now actually wins VS the 4.0 one unconditionally.
With the new, 0MP foul and the 1min cd Triple, this approximation of "we can pull Foul anywhere" more or less holds.
You'd still want it in UI to ensure full mana for the next AF cycle, but it's not concerning placing it somewhere else.

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"We can put Foul anywhere" only holds if we're committed to casting Blizzard 4 every umbral cycle. Casting Foul INSTEAD OF B4 is still the smartest thing we can do, because that effectively makes Foul go from costing 0% of our mana to restoring 80% of our mana.

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Originally Posted by Ferrinus

Blizzard 4 is not a constant in every rotation and every time you can replace it with Foul it's a dps win. Even ignoring the fact that you can now do five F4s by default, it's imperative that cast Foul instead of - not in addition to - B4 whenever you can.

Like, Thunder is also castable in either astral or umbral. Why do we use it in umbral? Because then it effectively generates mp at the same time as it deals damage.

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You are mistaken about what a constant actually is when comparing rotations in a inequation. Constant stands for a value that do not change, unlike a variable.

In a BLM rotation for example, F4, F1, B4, T3, Procs, they are all variables. Their values and the PPS they respectively give to a rotation are intrinsically related to a rotation's duration. A shorter rotation means you'll cast them more often and thus they will increase its PPS more. For example: a Fire Starter proc in a 3.0 rotation gives more PPS than a Fire Starter proc in a 4.0 rotation because 3.0 is shorter.

Foul is not a variable, it is a constant. No matter where you place it, it will yield the same PPS in every rotation, period. And just like we learn in the forth grade, when we have the same constant in both sides of an equation we can cut it off. Now, what you are implying is whether or not Foul can "buy" us a little time during the UI cycle so we always get the server mana tic in a real scenario, and the answer is absolutely. However, in all the calculations done to get the result 4.0 is better than 3.0, we assumed a perfect server tic for 3.0, meaning Thunder III was the only skill necessary in UI in order to give you full mana. This means the timeyou "gain" from casting Foul during UI was completely irrelevant, just like Foul placement, or any other constant, is when calculating rotations PPS.

But this doesn't matter anymore. Now we have a priority system:

3.0 5xFIVs rotation >>> 4.0 6xFIVs rotation > 3.0 4xFIVs rotation.

Strive to always do the 5xFIVs one and adjust to the others when necessary.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

Why didn't you just edit the post instead of quoting it to edit it?

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can't from my moblie

@Lilyth

don't agree, placing foul anywhere is not ideal,

as long as 3.0 rota is better than 4.0, since you don't need to use B4, but you need a filler for the MP ticks and thunder (procs) are not always available, you should place foul as the MP tick filler ..

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

@Lilyth

don't agree, placing foul anywhere is not ideal,

as long as 3.0 rota is better than 4.0, since you don't need to use B4, but you need a filler for the MP ticks and thunder (procs) are not always available, you should place foul as the MP tick filler ..

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On a real scenario where you can't control the mana tics, yes. But for calculations purposes, B3 -> T3 (Full Mana) -> F3 -> Foul has the exact same PPS as B3 -> Foul -> T3 -> F3. We're just adding values here, their order do not change the final value. 168 + 650 + 390 + 168 = 1376 / 168 + 390 + 168 + 650 = 1376.

When I say Foul can be ignored, it means when we place both rotations side by side, they will have the same "X" amount of Fouls casted each. And each Foul increases the potency of these rotations by the same value since it is a constant. Basically I'm not removing Foul's benefit from giving 3.0 a server tic, I'm just making the comparison that much simpler by removing the same constant value from both sides of the equation. But the mana tic Foul gives to 3.0 when used in UI is still there. And it still has lower PPS than the 4.0 if you cannot execute 5FIVs, less than 1 PPS though.

your looking at it wrongly, your just adding potentcies

sure 5xF4s is best, and work not to hurt that.., but you still need a mp filler, foul is better than others as filler (aside of t3/tp)

but we're still dependant from server ticks too, since foul casts so fast

@Shinroe I agree, I'm not saying we shouldn't use Foul on UI (cuz we should). I'm saying when calculating potencies, placement can be ignored. Pick two rotations you want to compare. Add the potencies of their moves in whatever order, divide by their duration. That's their PPS.

if you can use t3 or t/proc as a filler. , true, you can place foul anywhere else, it's never a dps lose...as long as you can do 5xF4 and have a good mp filler..

(just incase if bad server mp ticks, good to use foul right before t3 or before/ after t/procs.. during mp ticks)

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

3.0 5xFIVs rotation >>> 4.0 6xFIVs rotation > 3.0 4xFIVs rotation.

Strive to always do the 5xFIVs one and adjust to the others when necessary.

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I'm So baffled why its being named this way, as if we work for SE and know what they intended.
The so called 4.0 rotation was decided with only 2weeks + maybe an early access amount of time. There is no proof that the creators intendeded umbral hearts to be used outside of AOE its something that we the players decided.

Now there has been a nice handy change again.

So lets correct this: 4.05 5xFIVs rotation >>> 4.0(Experimental) 6xFIVs rotation > 3.0 4xFIVs rotation.

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

There is no proof that the creators intendeded umbral hearts to be used outside of AOE its something that we the players decided.

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What? No... Go watch preSB liveletter where yoshiP plays BLM. Or all their thoughts about how they redo enochian after it lose its timer...

Yes he did the opener with B4 but as I already said B4 ahs only a value when you CAN cast those 6 fire IV and that is not always possible, we haven't seen yoshida playing around a real raid scenario (btw we know he tests them with his BLM) so it's possible that we want to use them in specific situation, also remember that yoshida acknowledges the fact that the community can find more effective ways to play than them

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Originally Posted by Remedi

yoshida acknowledges the fact that the community can find more effective ways to play than them

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This is pretty much what i mean. You don't see Yoshi P running around on our servers spreading the BLM gospel lol. The liveletter is also the same kind of situation, the point was to showcase not to innovate, that is something they leave to us the population.

The main problem with our class is meta viability.. Red mage does on par (I wont say more because fflogs is not a good enough proving method to determine this) damage plus has a party buff.

I believe our rotation 4.05 rotation is fine, and leaves enough leeway for movement especially when we get more spell-speed. I believe that our problem right now is simply that we are suppose to be the samurai of magical dps, and we are currently not. They should either buff our potency or decrease the RDM potency bringing them in line with summoners.

Ran out of space..

Of course it is entirely possible that in this current section of the game, we are not suppose to be the Big D dps.. and maybe we are the Big D AOE dps.. Sucks because delta scape has no real need of that sofar.. but its possible.

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

Ran out of space..

Of course it is entirely possible that in this current section of the game, we are not suppose to be the Big D dps.. and maybe we are the Big D AOE dps.. Sucks because delta scape has no real need of that sofar.. but its possible.

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You can edit your post to get past the limits.

Anyways, what else do we bring if not the big D deeps? Despair? Wait, that's D too.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Yes he did the opener with B4 but as I already said B4 ahs only a value when you CAN cast those 6 fire IV and that is not always possible, we haven't seen yoshida playing around a real raid scenario (btw we know he tests them with his BLM) so it's possible that we want to use them in specific situation, also remember that yoshida acknowledges the fact that the community can find more effective ways to play than them

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I think it was more along the lines:
"Ok we want to merge enochian into af/ui, let's do it. But then there will be no reason for people to use b4 ever. Lets add something to it to make it viable."

I highly doubt they actally tested (or even cared) it long enough to maximize dps gain over 3.0 rotation. Its still usable from time to time and thats about it, not the highest priority stuff.

Oh and displaying the Big D dps i was on about earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aubn796nvFE

Props to Lavitz

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

The main problem with our class is meta viability.. Red mage does on par (I wont say more because fflogs is not a good enough proving method to determine this) damage plus has a party buff.

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I think that we shouldn't compare ourselves to RDM if we are to be the SAM of casters, I think that however melee meta is so radicated in the brain of ppl that they lack to see that there are tons of moments were melee have to go around dodging stuffs

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Originally Posted by prophecy4seen

Oh and displaying the Big D dps i was on about earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aubn796nvFE

Props to Lavitz

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That's a nice number, until you factor in that it's a Level 1 striking dummy. Still, if BLMs get similar results in SSS, then we'll definitely be in a competitive slot.

So anyone know what are the requesred Spellspeed,Crit and other stats for Omega Savage?

and what for food are we still gonna use?