[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

All I know is when SE did that poll for what class the community would like to see and summoner was the highest %, the community wanted ffxi summoner not world of warcraft warlock called summoner

Yes, Arcanist should be its own thing and Scholar and Summoner should see reworks in a rehaul that sees the removal of the class system. The other jobs could simply eat their respective classes. Scholar doesn't feel at all faithful to any of its prior incarnations as the hyper technical caster that modifies pre-existing magicks, and Summoner doesn't even come close. Egis are also dissapointing and minor eidolons would make far more sense.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Yes, Arcanist should be its own thing and Scholar and Summoner should see reworks in a rehaul that sees the removal of the class system. The other jobs could simply eat their respective classes. Scholar doesn't feel at all faithful to any of its prior incarnations as the hyper technical caster that modifies pre-existing magicks, and Summoner doesn't even come close. Egis are also dissapointing and minor eidolons would make far more sense.

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The Egis ARE minor eidolons...and Scholars only appeared in a handful of Final Fantasy games, all in support roles that utilize healing, protection, and some offensive magicks...

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Originally Posted by Dwill

What happens then is that for the other 75% of our damage, we have the remainder 50% of our mechanics. That creates a huge disparity from what we have with the pet as of now so to achieve the aforementioned goal, we would need to remove certain of our current abilities to make room for the new pets abilities, seeing as with the current pace of summoner, keeping everything would only create a huge glut in our abilities in which that even keeping everything we have, we'd have to prioritize what to use and what not to use. That would leave us with less choices for the character to achieve its damage just so that people felt rewarded for actually making the pet do its 25% that it's currently doing right now.

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The Summoner's 75% dps almost come entirely from it's class, the Arcanist, and Yoshida stated they are likely to do a rework of the entire class/job system, because of how restricting it is now for new jobs they would want to add, so in my opinion there really isn't a reason to argue this based on what we have right now. The amount of abilities the class and jobs get could completely change, with that in mind they could redirect some mechanics around, aka abilities and such.

Regarding the dps division between pet and Player, we wouldn't have our 75% damage, our dps would be nerfed and the pet dps would be buffed, and with the better pet mechanics the pets shouldn't be dying unless of course you are a bad player. It's really simple, and if it can't work now, then they can just make all the skills we get in the future focused on new pet mechanics and abilities, which will then shift our dps more to a 50/50 split, which I would be happy with too.

For as hard as Ifrit was to kill out there in the desert, he sure is lousy in a fight. Either Carbunkle is more useful.

I just made SMN and have little experience in FFXIV. I never played any of the other versions or any other games, but I am learning how to choose the right pet for the battle and to optimize its responses to my commands and to the battle itself. Reading some of the comments here makes me wonder if people who are down on pets have bothered to experiment with what they can do.

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Originally Posted by Estevo

The Summoner's 75% dps almost come entirely from it's class, the Arcanist, and Yoshida stated they are likely to do a rework of the entire class/job system, because of how restricting it is now for new jobs they would want to add, so in my opinion there really isn't a reason to argue this based on what we have right now. The amount of abilities the class and jobs get could completely change, with that in mind they could redirect some mechanics around, aka abilities and such.

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You're quite the champion at this.

Here's the exact quote to which you are referring:

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Originally Posted by Naoki Yoshida at E3 2014 Joint Media's Interview

Well, we need to look into this and whether we want to keep that plan, it’s something we have to consider as we add new jobs and classes. One of the more difficult things with the system is that when a job is derived from a class, it's tied to the class's actions. Also, when we make multiple jobs from one class, the weakness with having multiple jobs branch out of one class without being able to freely switch stats around is exposed. This wasn’t a problem initially because both of those jobs were simultaneously added and it was planned from the start, but now we have to carefully think about this. One thing we could consider, for example, is a hybrid job derived from more than one class, but it may change depending on what we want to add. The number of jobs will increase even further with 3.0 (the expansion pack), and at that point we might decide on an entirely new mechanism, so please hang on for further details.

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This implies on reworking the system to prevent being penalized when you go from a class to a job. Nothing in there implies a total rework of currently existing class and jobs.

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Originally Posted by Estevo

Regarding the dps division between pet and Player, we wouldn't have our 75% damage, our dps would be nerfed and the pet dps would be buffed, and with the better pet mechanics the pets shouldn't be dying unless of course you are a bad player. It's really simple, and if it can't work now, then they can just make all the skills we get in the future focused on new pet mechanics and abilities, which will then shift our dps more to a 50/50 split, which I would be happy with too.

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How can the concept of balance just go over your head 3 times in a row ? What's so hard to grasp that it just doesn't work that way ?

No

I find the job fun and interesting. I enjoy playing it. It brings valuable skills to any group. I wouldn't mind if they changed the name of the job just so forums wouldn't be as full of threads complaining about how summoners arent really summoners.

They should make the Summoner focus on Summon Management instead of Dot Management

Yes, amongst other things. This is a too much of a generic MMO without enough of what made Final Fantasy stand out in it. All the biggest summons and best spells are possessed by NPC's, and the PC's all can't wield that kind of power. We are allowed to play the B-string instead of the A list, left riding the pine with generic ideas from WoW. I only began playing about 6 days ago and so far, I am underwhelmed. The whole game needs another overhaul. Come back when Black mages can cast Ultima, Meteor, and Xzone, and when summoners can summon as well if not better than Yuna from FFX. Also when you can come up with quests that are more interesting than having my adventurer deliver pie, pickup dry cleaning, etc. FFS. I feel like SE is way outta touch with Final Fantasy anymore, for more proof look at FFXV aka SE's take on Shadow of the Collossus meets Assassin's Creed meets Metal Gear. *SMH*

Too out of touch with Final Fantasy..hahaha.

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Originally Posted by Verityrant

Yes, amongst other things. This is a too much of a generic MMO without enough of what made Final Fantasy stand out in it. All the biggest summons and best spells are possessed by NPC's, and the PC's all can't wield that kind of power. We are allowed to play the B-string instead of the A list, left riding the pine with generic ideas from WoW. I only began playing about 6 days ago and so far, I am underwhelmed. The whole game needs another overhaul. Come back when Black mages can cast Ultima, Meteor, and Xzone, and when summoners can summon as well if not better than Yuna from FFX. Also when you can come up with quests that are more interesting than having my adventurer deliver pie, pickup dry cleaning, etc. FFS. I feel like SE is way outta touch with Final Fantasy anymore, for more proof look at FFXV aka SE's take on Shadow of the Collossus meets Assassin's Creed meets Metal Gear. *SMH*

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Because that kind of thing would be totally balanced without any problems whatsoever.

Come back when you'll have noticed the difference between a single player game and a MMO.

I wish developers would notice that there is a difference between designing a MMO and copying WoW. Way to break the mold and strike out, use your good ideas from Final Fantasy that made that series good back in the day...not! I will come back when there is something other than tired design and white knights here.

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Originally Posted by Verityrant

I wish developers would notice that there is a difference between designing a MMO and copying WoW. Way to break the mold and strike out, use your good ideas from Final Fantasy that made that series good back in the day...not! I will come back when there is something other than tired design and white knights here.

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So, someone who likes the current design is a White Knight just because it doesn't adhere to what you think it should be?

Also I have to really wonder here with all the 'copy WoW' people out there, have you played WoW? Do you know what warlocks play like? Since honestly the only similarity is they have DoTs and Pets. Warlocks like all classes in WoW are 3 classes in one. That isn't to say they all play differently, rogues for quite some time regardless of spec played very similar, though for warlock they were quite different in playstyle. Not to mention none of them played like the FFXIV smn, except for the fact that they have dots.

Let's take affliction warlocks as they are the most 'similar', it is about balancing your regenerating soul shards and you do that by channeling (continuous cast at the target) or regenerating them off procs from dots. So you can regenerate them on demand and it's about buffing spells you already have. Smn 'equivalent' mechanic is Aetherflow stacks which is about managing powerful abilities over a 1min period that can only be used with said stacks, as opposed to buffing a spell. Aff Warlock pets are even more fire and forget then Garuda, as Garuda has the ability to extend dots so you have to pay attention to that at least (or use AOE but that doesn't require too much thought). Not to mention you actually have more buffs for your pet then a warlock does in WoW, I don't think warlocks have any other than summoning another pet for a limited time. There's also whole builds that eschew the pet completely. So really the similarities between the two things are the fact they have dots, and sometimes pets. Great!

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the 'summon big eidolon thing' for a limited time is going to be the reskinned limit break for Smn coming out at some point. The Smn could do with more summons but we know we're getting that with the expac.

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Originally Posted by Verityrant

I wish developers would notice that there is a difference between designing a MMO and copying WoW. Way to break the mold and strike out, use your good ideas from Final Fantasy that made that series good back in the day...not! I will come back when there is something other than tired design and white knights here.

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Someone disagreeing with your overly exaggerated ideas of balance and your incapacity to distinguish between a single player RPG and a MMO doesn't make them white knights, it means that have an actual grasp of how a MMO actually works.

Playing 6 days of this game and having your Summoner at 30 and Black Mage at 32 gives you nearly zero insight on how the game plays as a whole. Pet classes with DoTs have existed before WoW and will continue to exist after the game dies so I highly suggest you get over it because it ain't changing anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by Seaku

So, someone who likes the current design is a White Knight just because it doesn't adhere to what you think it should be?

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As opposed to what you think it should be?

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Originally Posted by Seaku

Also I have to really wonder here with all the 'copy WoW' people out there, have you played WoW? Do you know what warlocks play like? Since honestly the only similarity is they have DoTs and Pets. Warlocks like all classes in WoW are 3 classes in one. That isn't to say they all play differently, rogues for quite some time regardless of spec played very similar, though for warlock they were quite different in playstyle. Not to mention none of them played like the FFXIV smn, except for the fact that they have dots.

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Yes, actually. Warlock is 3 different specs rolled into one. This is why when we reference warlock, we reference the spec. Affliction Warlock is, what, exactly? A DoT based character with a pet and built-in sustain and debuffs? Kinda like SMN is a DoT based class with a pet and built-in sustain and debuffs? Same general archetype?
Oh wait, nevermind.

Sad fact is Warlock could actually attempt to pull off a pet-based spec. SMN doesn't even get the option.

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Originally Posted by Seaku

Let's take affliction warlocks as they are the most 'similar', it is about balancing your regenerating soul shards and you do that by channeling (continuous cast at the target) or regenerating them off procs from dots. So you can regenerate them on demand and it's about buffing spells you already have. Smn 'equivalent' mechanic is Aetherflow stacks which is about managing powerful abilities over a 1min period that can only be used with said stacks, as opposed to buffing a spell. Aff Warlock pets are even more fire and forget then Garuda, as Garuda has the ability to extend dots so you have to pay attention to that at least (or use AOE but that doesn't require too much thought). Not to mention you actually have more buffs for your pet then a warlock does in WoW, I don't think warlocks have any other than summoning another pet for a limited time. There's also whole builds that eschew the pet completely. So really the similarities between the two things are the fact they have dots, and sometimes pets. Great!

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Yea, except Afflock and SMN both feature everything I typed above and more. Might as well say they're nothing alike because the names are different. That's about as credible as your argument gets.
Anyone who successfully played Afflock in PvP and SMN in FF14 can feel the difference. It's nearly tangible.

Also, let's just pretend like Warlocks can't pull off a pet-oriented spec, which is actually pretty useful in PvE, whereas SMN is pigeonholed into the same spec regardless. Nothing screams "options" like the lack of options.


[QUOTE=Seaku;2366155]

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Originally Posted by Seaku

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the 'summon big eidolon thing' for a limited time is going to be the reskinned limit break for Smn coming out at some point. The Smn could do with more summons but we know we're getting that with the expac.

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Actually, I'd prefer a general rebranding of the class or an option for how the class is played.
Just going off of your post, what's the point of SMN when the only useful skill is Contagion? Like I said, that's 1/12. Even fucking Scholars have more useful pet skills than that. And that's pretty pathetic.

tl;dr rename SMN to WL and create an actual pet-based class.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Someone disagreeing with your overly exaggerated ideas of balance and your incapacity to distinguish between a single player RPG and a MMO doesn't make them white knights, it means that have an actual grasp of how a MMO actually works.

Playing 6 days of this game and having your Summoner at 30 and Black Mage at 32 gives you nearly zero insight on how the game plays as a whole. Pet classes with DoTs have existed before WoW and will continue to exist after the game dies so I highly suggest you get over it because it ain't changing anytime soon.

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Regardless of whether WoW was not only the most successful MMO to date or whether it set the standard back in the day and even today.
Good point.

PS - What's the difference between a 30 SMN and a 50 SMN? Awareness of what the class lacks in design and playstyle.
How many builds is a single Warlock capable of?
And how many builds for SMN?

Distracted by the pole, can't vote in poll.

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

Regardless of whether WoW was not only the most successful MMO to date or whether it set the standard back in the day and even today.
Good point.

PS - What's the difference between a 30 SMN and a 50 SMN? Awareness of what the class lacks in design and playstyle.
How many builds is a single Warlock capable of?
And how many builds for SMN?

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Can you actually start making sense at one point and stop the ridiculous comparison of Affliction Warlock vs Summoner ?

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

As opposed to what you think it should be?

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Okay, tell me, the people arguing that the Summoner is fine and enjoy playing the summoner as it is now are somehow white knights? Is that what you're saying? Or it could be that the people arguing against it just don't agree with you?

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

Yes, actually. Warlock is 3 different specs rolled into one. This is why when we reference warlock, we reference the spec. Affliction Warlock is, what, exactly? A DoT based character with a pet and built-in sustain and debuffs? Kinda like SMN is a DoT based class with a pet and built-in sustain and debuffs? Same general archetype?
Oh wait, nevermind.

Sad fact is Warlock could actually attempt to pull off a pet-based spec. SMN doesn't even get the option.

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You do realize a Warlock has LESS capabilities with a pet than a summoner does right? They have 1 ability (Command Demon) for it other than summoning one and pressing attack whereas the very least summoners have CDs for their pets and interact with them more. Also the proportion of the Warlock's damage that is the pets' is less than that of a Summoner. So I thoroughly disagree with your statement of that somehow Summoners can't play a pet based spec.

Though again, let's compare the Summoner to a Survival hunter than shall we? That's a dot based class with pets. How bout the necromancer from GW1? Necromancer from EQ and UO (both of which predate the warlock I might add)? Loremaster from LoTRO? Druid (cleric) soul from Rift? Could it be that this pet + DOT paradigm is just an archetype across multiple MMOs and did NOT start with WoW?

Also to note, the Warrior in this game builds wrath in a similar way to how a Protection Paladin from WoW builds holy power, I don't see any comparisons that they're the same. I just don't get why people get hung up on this Archetype and somehow say it's from WoW. It ain't, never has been.

(Honestly now thinking about it I think the FFXIV summoner is closest to BM Hunter but w/e)

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

Yea, except Afflock and SMN both feature everything I typed above and more. Might as well say they're nothing alike because the names are different. That's about as credible as your argument gets.
Anyone who successfully played Afflock in PvP and SMN in FF14 can feel the difference. It's nearly tangible.

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All you typed above is that they have dots and a pet. I already said that is where the similarities begin and end. Aff locks play quite different to a summoner in PvE. By pure mechanics one is about balancing a back and forth resource, burning them on a big buff spell and one is about planning ahead to use a limited resource. I'm sure just from that you can tell the difference. I'm not going to speak for PvP since I don't play PvP in either game.

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

Also, let's just pretend like Warlocks can't pull off a pet-oriented spec, which is actually pretty useful in PvE, whereas SMN is pigeonholed into the same spec regardless. Nothing screams "options" like the lack of options.

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I ain't disputing the lack of options, I agree with you for this one. All classes lack options since there is no such thing as specs in this game. That is a problem for every class and not just the summoner, which I do hope they fix.

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

Actually, I'd prefer a general rebranding of the class or an option for how the class is played.
Just going off of your post, what's the point of SMN when the only useful skill is Contagion? Like I said, that's 1/12. Even fucking Scholars have more useful pet skills than that. And that's pretty pathetic.

tl;dr rename SMN to WL and create an actual pet-based class.

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Hmm, okay, all of Titan's abilities are useful for what he does, namely tanking. You don't use that in raid scenario however. So that's 4/12 useful skills already. Garuda's Aerial slash is far from useless since its our only instant cast burst AOE skill though I wish that was on a 10 second timer instead of 30. 5/12. Contagion you've brought up. 6/12. For ifirt, Burning strike and Flaming crush are integral to his damage. 8/12.

Considering you are saying out of 12 skills you said only 1 is useful so I'm guessing you think Wind blade is useless too? 9/12.

So the pointless skills are shockwave (this just needs to go), Radiant shield (at least let us cast it on the tanks), Crimson Cyclone (remove the damn stun!).

They just need to redo some of the skills to make them more viable. There doesn't need a complete rework or rebranding to do it. Just make the skills more useful and done. No need for any sort of overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

How many builds is a single Warlock capable of?
And how many builds for SMN?

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I just want to bring this one up as the design of WoW is that all the classes are 3 classes in one. (4 for the Druid). Similar to rift in that regard (8 soul tress pick 3), the specs don't really play like one another with some exceptions (rogues namely). That is a different design paradigm to what FFXIV does. One of which I will agree needs to change, I'd like some customization, heck I'm sure everyone does. Though again, this is nothing to do with the Summoner and is just jobs in general. For that I'll just wait to see what 3.0 brings.

Summoners who don't use Ifrit on Turn 3 don't know what they are doing.

Titan is pretty awful though.

Also isn't Death Knight and Warrior the same thing? You can probably draw parallels to all WoW classes from Final Fantasy classes. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has already done it. People only cry waterfalls about Summoner because...Summoner?

To re balance Summoner they should swap the damage dealt by the master and pet and have the Summoner do 33% the damage of the Pet.

Make the Pets Hyur size Primals.

Make the Summoner summon management keeping the dots and adding Hard Mode Primal move sets to the summons, Summon skills, Pet Buffs and Pet Enhancement Traits.

Change the current Summoner to a Red Mage, add en spells and remove pets.

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Originally Posted by Seaku

Honestly there is no point arguing with you beyond this point as all I foresee is more insults flung at people that don't agree with you with no actual argument in your posts. So I'll just drop this.

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He's just trying to look knowledgeable while being clever but he's unsuccessful at both. He's pretty much a lost cause.

NO.

And, wow, thread necromancy... The same people at it again?

It's not like they took a class that was already established in FFXIV and changed it into something nobody liked. They established a class, all at once, with a certain playstyle. Many people (myself included) really like this new class/playstyle they've made for ARR and use it as their main.

If you're not one of those people, just play another class; quit tromping on all the people who really (really) enjoy it.

How is there such a dedicated contingent (of one person) constantly bringing this up again (and using thread necromancy)? Not that many people are even remotely interested in this opinion.

The problem is that Square didn't translate the Summoner into a proper pet class for Final Fantasy XIV they just made dot focus job with a dinky permanent pet that we have little interaction with. That's why I suggest the Summoner provide support damage and buffs while the pet provides the main source of damage.
-Summoner's get Hyur Sized Primals with Hard Mode abilities while keeping dot damage.
-Branch Red Mage off Arcanists giving it en spells and making it the new dot job for people that like the current play style of the Summoner.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The problem is that Square didn't translate the Summoner into a proper pet class for Final Fantasy XIV they just made dot focus job with a dinky permanent pet that we have little interaction with. That's why I suggest the Summoner provide support damage and buffs while the pet provides the main source of damage.

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This sounds like a way to axe Beastmaster for sure. If SE is down with that, then it can happen.

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-Summoner's get Hyur Sized Primals with Hard Mode abilities while keeping dot damage.

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That's probably still too big. It'd have to be between Lala and Mi'quote size to be reasonable.

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-Branch Red Mage off Arcanists giving it en spells and making it the new dot job for people that like the current play style of the Summoner.

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Do you know how to make thousands of Red Mage fans angry? This is how.

id like to see it changed, yes.

Yes change it already I haven't been playing the game because they made us dot focus class move that to red mage.
Also summoner class can't have it both ways
I rather have the class do its damage from pet side and let us have full control over our egi just like in ff10.

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Originally Posted by Jediman

Yes change it already I haven't been playing the game because they made us dot focus class move that to red mage.
Also summoner class can't have it both ways
I rather have the class do its damage from pet side and let us have full control over our egi just like in ff10.

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Or we can wait for red mage class to pop up and take some dots from them and stick it with smn class this Is what's going to happen who knows in the future.

summoner class is a disgrace the advance so called summoner class even with the so called ifrit and titan they want us to to believe they are avatars from final fantasy series lol

http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...106ed05f0a.jpg

ifrit is like a staff you can hold and say lol
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/VlaiBeLrntQ/maxresdefault.jpg
https://communities.netapp.com/servl...-not-pass.jpeg

you feel me lord of the ring has made ifrit that looks more like the dam ifrit avatar

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...ps275ce12b.png

All the summoners pet look more like beastmen pet in final fantasy xi.

Titan is like pail of rock molding together the developers didn't have time, So this is the end result of a crappy so called Egi base on a crappy idea.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

...dot focus job with a dinky permanent pet that we have little interaction with...

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To me this is a clear sign that you are one of those people who refuse to use the job to it's full capability.

Yes

I would like there to be more engagement with the pet. I summon my pets on obey and I do multi - task using any pet abilities that they have, aerial slash, flaming crush etc...but I would like to see things adjusted just to get the pets more involved if we want.

Garuda - I feel Contagion will always push Garuda above the rest because of the damage to MP you get from getting the extra ticks. I would like to see this as an arcanist ability. Replace it with either a wind based DOT or..going to get some hate from this...but a pt buff such as...aoe..blink?

Titan - The tank, I don't mind the role of being the tank but fact is unless it's out at the beginning it is unlikely it will grab hate in time. I would like to give him a provoke to grab instant hate if I have to summon him and switch from Ifrit or garuda. He gets his butt kicked pretty hard on some things, maybe also let some of his moves give him a boost of defense rather than just Earthen Ward being the only thing.

Ifrit - I enjoy what he has but I never use Radiant Shield, toss it to the side or let it but an aoe party buff. Or give him his own berserk

Also would like some of the cool downs to be lowered a bit so they can be useful such as waiting 40s for us to use Stun again when MDR can use it in 20.

I don't think Summoner has ever really been a 'pet management' class/job/whatever. I mean, in general FF history.

The Summon normally turns up, does something flashy, and goes away again.
You could get this exact feel for the current Summoner by making the Spur & Enkindle actions much bigger deals.

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Originally Posted by rabbitzero

No. Too many people complaining about what they expected and what they got, it's fine. The only complaint i really have is that you can't easily see which dots are yours in boss fights. Slight color difference just doesn't cut it. Make them bigger, different color, whatever. I also hope if they don't, it's one of the first things someone makes an addon for.

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Theres actually an option, unsure where atm since I'm at work, that will only show affects you place on the boss which makes it much easier to track your own debuffs on a target. Maybe not the best solution but I feel it work rather well.

No, SMN is just too much fun to play the way it is.

No. SMN is completely fine as it is.

I vote no, and here's why

Eorzea is a different land than other FF's, and just because we are accustomed to the concept of having Summoners be more like Yuna and Rydia, doesn't mean Summoners here are going to be like Yuna and Rydia. What attracted me originally to the class was the chance to party up with Carbunkle, I felt he was super cute, and seemed like a fun companion. When I read the basic descriptions, it crafted my entire concept of the character.

"Accompanied by a familiar in battle, adepts of the art of arcanum derive their might from symbols of power born of geometric techniques hailing from across the southern seas. Held within special grimoires, these symbols lend shape to the arcanist's aether, thereby allowing them to produce a myriad of powerful spells.

Using magicked gemstones upon which the selfsame symbols are graven, arcanists are also able to summon forth the ephemeral being Carbuncle to carry out their bidding."

The key words I have taken the time to highlight. We are Arcanist, who can summon the ESSENCE of a primal, but not the actual primal. It say's it as clear as day, from jump street.

In this land, this is how we are meant to be. I love the class the way that it is. If the beast tribe have to gather a butt ton of Crystals to summon a primal, why should I have the ability to fully draw on their power. For that one fleeting moment every 5 minutes, we can Enkindle and grasp the true power of a primal. After that, we need to focus on using are Arcane knowledge to do damage.

As far as DPS is concerned, practice your class, and your rotations. It does suck that Garuda is the main summon we always use, but she leads to some AMAZING damage. Having her Contagion/Bane hit many mobs on a trash pull and your DPS is through the roof. Practice, study and learn your character!

There is no dps concern for the Summoner since there is only two main rotations then dot management which is the main complaint. Players want the pet to take center stage and be the primal source of damage while the Summoner provides support damage, pet buffs and pet skill rotations making it a pet management job.

I would like to see the primal elements take a more center stage, whether that is more pet class, theme'd abilities, or visual updates- the method is not my concern as much as making summoner reek primal.

In terms of mechanical usefulness SMN is pretty useful, good dps, high mobility, debuff, buff, and a battle raise (then include Titan for decent tanking for most scenarios).

I think you guys are failing to read what SE has clearly stated were the intentions of SMN. Its not meant to be a Primal only class, never was. We are Arcanist who can call on the essence of the primal. We do this without use of crystals might I add. By making SMN based more on summoning a more realistic and bigger primal, or more focused on our EGI, you're kinda spitting on the lore of Eorzea. Our Summon is support, not primary focus. Perhaps if we had the ability to summon a weaker version of the primal at a high crystal cost, and for a brief period of time, then that would make more sense...but from where it stands, I feel that the character works perfectly with the intentions of the game design.

Less not forget that Scholars still have the ability to use Arcanist skills too :P

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Originally Posted by Lycia

I think you guys are failing to read what SE has clearly stated were the intentions of SMN. Its not meant to be a Primal only class, never was. We are Arcanist who can call on the essence of the primal. We do this without use of crystals might I add. By making SMN based more on summoning a more realistic and bigger primal, or more focused on our EGI, you're kinda spitting on the lore of Eorzea. Our Summon is support, not primary focus. Perhaps if we had the ability to summon a weaker version of the primal at a high crystal cost, and for a brief period of time, then that would make more sense...but from where it stands, I feel that the character works perfectly with the intentions of the game design.

Less not forget that Scholars still have the ability to use Arcanist skills too :P

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I'd agree twisting arcanist is a bit of a lore buster but the lore of summoning -more- of a primal already exists unless it was retcon I didn't know about. Also there is nothing in the lore that says you cant become stronger and obtain greater amounts of primal essence, in fact in the story we see someone who has (though they are evil (maybe by mind influence), probably because most of the primals are evil or not interested in being pets).

And then of course there is the whole FC summoning the actual primal idea Yoshida has, and where SE said they are waiting for the story to allow that to make sense (at that point there would be even less of a reason to argue that summoners can't access more).

I've already said my piece on the matter (in favor of quality of life fixes and small adjustments to the Egi), but I really do hate seeing lore as an excuse for game design decisions.

What would we do if they made a quest along the lines of "well, if you sprinkle Allagan pixie dust on your book and wish really hard, you can summon a primal, if only for a few minutes." Would it be okay then? Of course they shouldn't scrap summoner and rework it into some grandiose megajob you'd expect to see in FF8 or FF10, but a fanciful backstory shouldn't completely dictate what the developers can and cannot do to improve the summoner job. Stories are too easily left open to interpretation, so people can twist them to try and back their opinions as some undeniable truth.

Example:
"In times immemorial, there lived mages who had not only the power to summon the primals, but also the means to transmute the primals' essences, thus binding them to their will. Known simply as summoners, the existence of these men and women and their arcane art have been all but lost to the ages."

Taken directly from the official web page.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/game/#!/jobs/content

If I, as a summoner, can transmute the primals' essence and bind it to my will, I should be able to do whatever I want with it right? Why can't I make my Egi bigger or smaller if I want? Why I can't I make Ifrit toss fireballs and have Garuda go into melee combat pecking out the eyes of my foes? Maybe we should ask for more customization so we can swap the roles of Ifrit and Garuda. (Please note, I'm not seriously suggesting this, but I could easily see someone making a topic like this using the "lore" to back them up.)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I'd agree twisting arcanist is a bit of a lore buster but the lore of summoning -more- of a primal already exists unless it was retcon I didn't know about. Also there is nothing in the lore that says you cant become stronger and obtain greater amounts of primal essence, in fact in the story we see someone who has (though they are evil (maybe by mind influence), probably because most of the primals are evil or not interested in being pets).

And then of course there is the whole FC summoning the actual primal idea Yoshida has, and where SE said they are waiting for the story to allow that to make sense (at that point there would be even less of a reason to argue that summoners can't access more).

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Yes there is something that explains it in the lore. A Primal's power level is in direct correlation with the amount of Aether amassed, more often than not via a huge amount of crystals. For our egi, it works the same. We summon them by using the essence we gained by fighting the primal as a catalyst then give they become an Aetherical Manifestation of what the primal looks in our mind, which means that they are a concentrated amount of Aether. For them to be stronger/bigger, a bigger amount of Aether would be needed which means exposure to a high amount of Aether which is a big no no due to serious side effects which includes aether sickness (poisoning).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Snip

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That's already what we do. Fighting the primals imbues us with their essence, to which we transmute into the Egis.