M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

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Originally Posted by Talianore

6.3 is when they removed the requirement that someone had to cast a heal to activate it though, so some sacrifice was required until 6.3. Now it's a free heal and shield. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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I never actually minded that mechanic so much.
You could always hard cast one holy spirit to pop it yourself.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

On just the healing part: Division of power. If all the healing potencies were converted into pure shielding, both Divine Veil and Shake it off would be huge, and they were even more powerful. But tbh they would feel more boring since filling health bars feels better. If we had to live without the healing power all together ... well the entire button would feel worse and less impactful all together and like a wasted effort. I doubt a 10% hp shield would be enough to save most dire situations at all.

I have always felt that people do not press addle or feint on their respective dps roles because they cannot see the impact. For the part of the community that does not enrage with mit schedules or combat readers, the imminent impact of the game is what drives behavior.

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Recovering dire situations is what healers are for, not tanks.

I think it would be better if certain tank and DPS abilities were changed into giving heal potency buffs for healers.
So that most healing or shielding is still coming from the healer class, but as a tank and some DPS you can buff their healing strength.

So kinda like Krasis from SGE (im sure other healers have similar abilities, I'm just not familiar with them yet):

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Increases HP recovery via healing actions for a party member or self by 20%.
Duration: 10s

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Replace any tank or DPS abilities with that effect if said ability currently applies heal, regen, or barrier.
Possibly add in a new modifier that is like "Increases barrier HP application from a party member by 20%" or "Increases Healing Over Time application from a party member by 20%"
Change percentages and durations as needed depending on how long the cooldowns are.

What it does is simple: instead of doing the healer's job, tanks and some DPS now buff the healer job of healing.
Still would result in some whiny healers going "but then i still have to heal less, booooringgg". But at least it's better than completely taking away the need for a healer to heal.
What it also does is, if all healing/shielding skills are replaced with the heal buff, then there will be absolutely 0 party healing going on if there is no healer. Then the "cheese compositions" will at the least use 1 healer and probably optimize buffs around that. But hey, at least you NEED a healer.

For tanks, usually their 1-2-3 combo also heals them. I'd say remove that, it's not necessary whatsoever if there is a healer around to pay attention to them.
Possibly a tank/DPS can give a partywide buff that is like "increases MP recovery from actions by 50%" or something. It wouldn't affect passive regen, but it would affect healers to receive more MP from, say, consuming Addersgall. Instead of 700 MP you get 1050 MP. Astro card draw gives 3000 MP instead of 2000. Etc. Percentage is just an example, 50% would probably be too much, but just an idea that as a tank you can affect the healer's MP. Then add in more demand for GCD healing and you get a decent balance and interconnection of class mechanics

That's what you get when you give everyone so much sustainability for free.

There is so much of it on non-healer jobs. I am all up for some extra shields, mitigation, healing received buffs, regens. But they are supposed to be supplementary, not replacing the healers primary function. A little "extra" to tide the party over the hardest attacks.

I would agree with non-healers having personal or party wide STRONG sustain, but if it comes at the cost of doing damage/using big cooldowns that could've gone into doing damage. But all of it is given for free in the fight design that has a strict scenario for incoming attacks with no randomization (no crit, no mini tankbusters, no sudden change of attack pattern).

And it also proves that healers has no other agency in the fight except filling others HP bars. There are NO debuffs to cleanse, not enough strong attacks to warrant healers ever-available healing spells, no strong buffs available to healers only to make them desirable in the party comp.

This is just sad...

MMO players, by nature, tend to gravitate towards the most efficient methods to tackle content, optimizing group compositions to meet the demands of high-end challenges or simply to clear content faster. In FFXIV, the flexibility to switch between all jobs on a single character offers a unique advantage in adapting to changing metas.

Despite ongoing debates about the necessity of healers or their supposed redundancy, traditional party structures continue to dominate, suggesting that healers still play a crucial role in the game’s ecosystem. You will still find Two Tanks, Two Healers (1 Pure/1 Shield), and Four DPS (2 Melee, 2 Ranged) to be the norm. This consistency raises the question of whether the concerns about healers and their place in the game are truly warranted. The answer appears to be a definitive no.

If healers were in as poor a state as some suggest, we would likely see a shift away from traditional norms, as the nature of gaming often prioritizes efficiency over everything else. The fact that the game offers accessibility to alternatives while maintaining viability in traditional roles indicates a balanced system that encourages creativity.

In discussions about the "Healer Strike" or similar threads, I often see healers expressing boredom and a desire for a more robust DPS rotation. Simultaneously, videos showcasing exceptions to the traditional setup are treated as the rule. This is puzzling because if you seek more engaging gameplay, experimenting with a healer-less meta might provide that experience. As a White Mage main, I would alternatively play Summoner if it was the path of least resistance.

I don’t believe healing is in a bad state. The composition of player groups reflects this stability. If healing were indeed suffering, we would see a noticeable change in group dynamics, which simply hasn’t happened.

They should nerf healer dmg and give dps more healing skills. Healers are still too relevant in this game for them to change cause we have too many clowns still playing them. It's only when the state gets so bad that even the clowns stop playing the role then maybe actual good changes can happen.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I don’t believe healing is in a bad state. The composition of player groups reflects this stability. If healing were indeed suffering, we would see a noticeable change in group dynamics, which simply hasn’t happened.

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I think the reason non-healer comp isn't popular is that players generally just stick to the default party composition set by SE. I'm from other MMOs. In an enivronment where there's never a default party compostion, the playerbase ALWAYS strive to minimize the number of healers in parties. Once people found an optimial way to survive boss mechanics, healers are always the first one to let go. In FFXIV, I believe healer slot still exist in PF because it's protected by human tendencies to comply with default option, if there's any.

See Default Effect

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I think the reason non-healer comp isn't popular is that players generally just stick to the default party composition set by SE. I'm from other MMOs. In an enivronment where there's never a default party compostion, the playerbase ALWAYS strive to minimize the number of healers in parties. Once people found an optimial way to survive boss mechanics, healers are always the first one to let go. In FFXIV, I believe healer slot still exist in PF because it's protected by human tendencies to comply with default option, if there's any.

See Default Effect

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I don't think you can use something like the default effect when that's contrary to our gamer nature. Players especially in highest-end content in MMOs will min-max to achieve their goals and the social expectation to play the most efficient way will become the default.

Your point about the default effect is interesting, but I believe the sustained use of healers in FFXIV is driven more by the game's unique design and the culture of min-maxing in gaming. Players often focus on optimizing their strategies to overcome content most efficiently. In FFXIV, this optimization has consistently included healers, as the game’s mechanics demand the reliable healing and support they provide.

Even though the game allows flexibility in job selection, groups still rely on traditional setups because they’ve proven to be the most effective. If healer-less compositions were genuinely more efficient, we’d see the min-maxing culture push players toward them. Instead, the dominance of traditional setups suggests that the game’s mechanics are well-balanced around the intended roles, making the healer’s place not just a default option but a deliberate and optimal choice.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

MMO players, by nature, tend to gravitate towards the most efficient methods to tackle content, optimizing group compositions to meet the demands of high-end challenges or simply to clear content faster. In FFXIV, the flexibility to switch between all jobs on a single character offers a unique advantage in adapting to changing metas.

Despite ongoing debates about the necessity of healers or their supposed redundancy, traditional party structures continue to dominate, suggesting that healers still play a crucial role in the game’s ecosystem. You will still find Two Tanks, Two Healers (1 Pure/1 Shield), and Four DPS (2 Melee, 2 Ranged) to be the norm. This consistency raises the question of whether the concerns about healers and their place in the game are truly warranted. The answer appears to be a definitive no.

If healers were in as poor a state as some suggest, we would likely see a shift away from traditional norms, as the nature of gaming often prioritizes efficiency over everything else. The fact that the game offers accessibility to alternatives while maintaining viability in traditional roles indicates a balanced system that encourages creativity.

In discussions about the "Healer Strike" or similar threads, I often see healers expressing boredom and a desire for a more robust DPS rotation. Simultaneously, videos showcasing exceptions to the traditional setup are treated as the rule. This is puzzling because if you seek more engaging gameplay, experimenting with a healer-less meta might provide that experience. As a White Mage main, I would alternatively play Summoner if it was the path of least resistance.

I don’t believe healing is in a bad state. The composition of player groups reflects this stability. If healing were indeed suffering, we would see a noticeable change in group dynamics, which simply hasn’t happened.

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It's because the player base is not skilled enough to play without healers, that's all. I'm playing with hardcore players and if we don't need a healer, we don't bring one. We're tagging every normal content with 1 tank and the rest DPS because even when there is a double TB, the tank can protect the DPS most of the time with a little bit of added party mitigation. By doing so you are cutting 30% of the duration of a fight and at least we have a somewhat "challenging" experience doing our roulettes. And like, it's not very difficult to do so, not at all. We're simply using every tool the game is giving us and that means we have to press one ot two more buttons per minute than an average player. Damage is such a joke that except some niche mechanics such as 1hp doom check (and even then we have cheese strats to pass them) your passive regen is pretty much all you need to survive as long as you don't take avoidable damage. Sure you are not at 100% health but why should you care ? As long as you have 30% hp pretty much nothing unavoidable can kill you.z

On another note, you all need to stop thinking it is hard to do in savage/ultimate. You vaguely press one button that you should be pressing anyway in the first place every minute or so. How is that hard ? You think planning it is hard ? You can litterally ask a computer to make the mitigation/healing plan for you and if you don't, it's gonna take at most 1h to do it...

The situation is so bad that I know some week1 static that have seriously considered to go with no healers for their kills and seems like one of them did.

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Originally Posted by Ozmandis

It's because the player base is not skilled enough to play without healers, that's all. I'm playing with hardcore players and if we don't need a healer, we don't bring one. We're tagging every normal content with 1 tank and the rest DPS because even when there is a double TB, the tank can protect the DPS most of the time with a little bit of added party mitigation. By doing so you are cutting 30% of the duration of a fight and at least we have a somewhat "challenging" experience doing our roulettes. And like, it's not very difficult to do so, not at all. We're simply using every tool the game is giving us and that means we have to press one ot two more buttons per minute than an average player. Damage is such a joke that except some niche mechanics such as 1hp doom check (and even then we have cheese strats to pass them) your passive regen is pretty much all you need to survive as long as you don't take avoidable damage. Sure you are not at 100% health but why should you care ? As long as you have 30% hp pretty much nothing unavoidable can kill you.z

On another note, you all need to stop thinking it is hard to do in savage/ultimate. You vaguely press one button that you should be pressing anyway in the first place every minute or so. How is that hard ? You think planning it is hard ? You can litterally ask a computer to make the mitigation/healing plan for you and if you don't, it's gonna take at most 1h to do it...

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Yep this is it, people can say healers are in a good place but they aren't its a lie.
Content can be cleared without them so if people get good enough to remove them from play they will because healers aren't efficent, if removing a healer cuts of minutes from a fight people will do it and people will learn that strat. Healers need to be necessary for them to survive, the exact same thing would happen to tanks if they were able to be removed from play. People want more damage, they never want more healing or tanking above whats necessary to clear an encounter.
Think I am wrong? Current BIS for healers has a crafted piece on it because it has no piety because piety doesn't provide damage, people do not care about anything but damage.

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

Everyone is at different steps of their journey and I still respect anybody's opinion on the game as important.
But people shouldn't be talking down from the summit when they haven't reached it yet.

It's just a very dishonest and needlessly insulting approach.
Stick to the facts and the reality of the situation - traditional parties work the best. You are free to try whatever you like for party comps but if they were truly more efficient they'd be adopted by the majority of the player base.

As regardless of skill level everyone has a perception of being better than they truly are. If this thread is any evidence. Again I mean that in respect we're all equals here.
So if a more optimal path presents itself that's what people will do. Perceptions then should meet the reality of this topic but they don't. For reasons I described. The traditional system works.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Yep this is it, people can say healers are in a good place but they aren't its a lie.
Content can be cleared without them so if people get good enough to remove them from play they will because healers aren't efficent, if removing a healer cuts of minutes from a fight people will do it and people will learn that strat. Healers need to be necessary for them to survive, the exact same thing would happen to tanks if they were able to be removed from play. People want more damage, they never want more healing or tanking above whats necessary to clear an encounter.
Think I am wrong? Current BIS for healers has a crafted piece on it because it has no piety because piety doesn't provide damage, people do not care about anything but damage.

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The thing about healers being entirely removed is that it proves that the absolute minimum requirement doesn't require a healer. That basically means that bringing a single healer along is nothing but insurance, and given that even one single healer is nothing but insurance, what's the point in having two?

You aren’t good enough to do this is such a dishonest argument because if people on here actually did go out and do this the same people would just turn around go “congratulations but you have to understand that not everyone is as good as you so obviously you have to consider other people” and still dodge actually engaging with the point

Look at the vod (and in the following comment I mean no disrespect to the players), they had cactbot running, they failed 4 mechanics, 2 people died, they didn’t even see soft enrage, they used no clemencies during uptime

This isn’t a grand deceleration of skill, this is just a generic attempt at a speed kill that’s only not more common because FFlogs sets standard parties as the only ones you can properly log on. Any static who across its 8 members average blues and purples can do this easily

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

Everyone is at different steps of their journey and I still respect anybody's opinion on the game as important.
But people shouldn't be talking down from the summit when they haven't reached it yet.

It's just a very dishonest and needlessly insulting approach.
Stick to the facts and the reality of the situation - traditional parties work the best. You are free to try whatever you like for party comps but if they were truly more efficient they'd be adopted by the majority of the player base.

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Isn't it just as insulting to suggest that high-caliber players don't engage in the forums?

The traditional format is used most because it is the most risk-averse. I.e. an uncoordinated group of whoevers can catch a few floor tanks, fail a few minor mechanics, and get over the finish line with some good grace. That does not translate to traditional parties work the best. It is inarguable that any comp that reduces from 2 healers (solo heal, 4 tanks, whatever) will clear faster.

Clearly, M4S is clearable without healers. It's been done. So the skills and capabilities exist in-game to do it. Ergo, it literally is a player skill issue that prevents other parties from replicating it. Was it a faster clear? Yes. Did anyone die? No. Does that make it more effective than a traditional clear? I'd argue yes. Because realistically, kill time is the only metric we have to compare. Faster = better.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

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With all due respect that does not matter. Your role is optional, it should be mandatory for current content. You should be yelling at CBU3 to increase the healing checks or nerf the Tank/DPS heals. But well I don't actually care, its your role, if you want to play as an optional role thats fine has no effect on me since I play DPS and know there will always be a place for me, unlike you who will be dropped if we DPS and Tanks keep getting more healing and we don't need your role's terrible damage, all you provide for us is healing if that isn't needed then goodbye.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The thing about healers being entirely removed is that it proves that the absolute minimum requirement doesn't require a healer. That basically means that bringing a single healer along is nothing but insurance, and given that even one single healer is nothing but insurance, what's the point in having two?

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Exactly which is why its common that healers are dropped in reclears even in PF. Eventually after a few months if you see a nonstandard comp in PF it is always replacing a Healer with a DPS, healers and to a lesser extent tanks only exist because they are needed for content. If a DPS could replace both roles it'll happen, happens in pretty much all MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Ritsugamesh

Isn't it just as insulting to suggest that high-caliber players don't engage in the forums?

The traditional format is used most because it is the most risk-averse. I.e. an uncoordinated group of whoevers can catch a few floor tanks, fail a few minor mechanics, and get over the finish line with some good grace. That does not translate to traditional parties work the best. It is inarguable that any comp that reduces from 2 healers (solo heal, 4 tanks, whatever) will clear faster.

Clearly, M4S is clearable without healers. It's been done. So the skills and capabilities exist in-game to do it. Ergo, it literally is a player skill issue that prevents other parties from replicating it. Was it a faster clear? Yes. Did anyone die? No. Does that make it more effective than a traditional clear? I'd argue yes. Because realistically, kill time is the only metric we have to compare. Faster = better.

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Depends on why you'd find it insulting; I'm not setting myself above others.

M4S could potentially be cleared by a myriad of compositions I could offer no opinion outside of that. It isn't proper to use exceptions to make your rules.

And it is an exception you are making if you are considering player skill issues to be the barrier between traditional groups and healerless ones.

Especially if you're going to be making a serious argument that healers aren't necessary when clearly they are for most people. Healers make the fights easier or "Risk-averse" as you said.
The system works out fine for me. It stands to reason that exceptional players can do exceptional things because they are the exception.

But for the rest of us mortals included on this forum are not exceptional.
Not that you need to be exceptional to have a valid opinion but I'm pointing out that if you're concerned about the state of healers - you've just made my case as to why they are very much necessary.

Most players want a smooth run that will be forgiving therefore the optimal stratagem is to play the traditional comp.

If I were to find more healerless groups that would infer that is the easier route the path of least resistance and most optimal way to play.

If playing without healers was the most optimal for everyone that be a problem but it's not.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

Everyone is at different steps of their journey and I still respect anybody's opinion on the game as important.
But people shouldn't be talking down from the summit when they haven't reached it yet.

It's just a very dishonest and needlessly insulting approach.
Stick to the facts and the reality of the situation - traditional parties work the best. You are free to try whatever you like for party comps but if they were truly more efficient they'd be adopted by the majority of the player base.

As regardless of skill level everyone has a perception of being better than they truly are. If this thread is any evidence. Again I mean that in respect we're all equals here.
So if a more optimal path presents itself that's what people will do. Perceptions then should meet the reality of this topic but they don't. For reasons I described. The traditional system works.

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I'm sorry but I am never ever gonna accept the idea that pressing mitigation in high-end content is a difficult skill to acquire. The rest of the skillset associated with a job we can talk about it but that ? Mitigation is neither hard to do nor optionnal when you do this type of content PERIOD. If you find that it is hard, don't go into savage/ultimate and continue to play in game modes where it is not a requirement. If you can't be bothered to use a 90s skill on cooldown, I fail to see how you can be anything other than someone that just want to be carried. If you are making the argument that it is hard then you are probably very bad at other parts of your job and as such you should not tag in anything other than normal mode.

I swear to god, it's so easy that if Hector would bother to do a guide on how to clear fights without healers, we'll be getting a lot more people doing it.

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Originally Posted by Ozmandis

I swear to god, it's so easy that if Hector would bother to do a guide on how to clear fights without healers, we'll be getting a lot more people doing it.

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I just thinking this but can you imagine if they made it possible to queue DF with 1X tank 3X dps (or 2X tank 6X DPS)? Healers would all but drop off the face of the earth lol. And I mean, even if people did need healers, the role has become so diminished that people outside it see it as more a joke than anything. They’re never going to think they needed healers lol.

It’s bad enough how diminished the healing role has become in savage, but it’s significant enough now that for most people the only reason healers even join parties outside of savage is because DF forced them in.
Like that kid everyone really doesn’t like but they have to be nice to them because they’re like a family friend’s kid or something lol.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I don't believe anybody who comments on these forums is exceptional enough to make claims of skill with all due respect.

Everyone is at different steps of their journey and I still respect anybody's opinion on the game as important.
But people shouldn't be talking down from the summit when they haven't reached it yet.

It's just a very dishonest and needlessly insulting approach.
Stick to the facts and the reality of the situation - traditional parties work the best. You are free to try whatever you like for party comps but if they were truly more efficient they'd be adopted by the majority of the player base.

As regardless of difficulty level everyone has a perception of being better than they truly are. If this thread is any evidence. Again I mean that in respect we're all equals here.
So if a more optimal path presents itself that's what people will do. Perceptions then should meet the reality of this topic but they don't. For reasons I described. The traditional system works.

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FFXiV and job design are not rocket science, get off your high horse. Elitism isn't going to stop the feedback.

Tanks are broken on every diffculty level btw, not just high end.

I'd also note consider that the meta for an encounter can in fact be different from what is "tradtional". Many players run traditional, but you're assuming that is because of skill level when it could also just be lack of knowledge or motivation. The game actively pushes traditional setup 24/7. I'm not saying that this is true for this encounter, maybe it isn't. But being convenient and being the literal meta based on hard data are separate things. Saying things like "I need to see it more often for it to be true" is a fallacy.

Lastly the players you are praising here use addons.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I just thinking this but can you imagine if they made it possible to queue DF with 1X tank 3X dps (or 2X tank 6X DPS)? Healers would all but drop off the face of the earth lol. And I mean, even if people did need healers, the role has become so diminished that people outside it see it as more a joke than anything. They’re never going to think they needed healers lol.

It’s bad enough how diminished the healing role has become in savage, but it’s significant enough now that for most people the only reason healers even join parties outside of savage is because DF forced them in.
Like that kid everyone really doesn’t like but they have to be nice to them because they’re like a family friend’s kid or something lol.

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Exactly correct. For any given dungeon, healer absent runs are generally the meta and have been for some time. If they didnt have the restiction, maybe you would see more people go for whatever gets the quickest result. Similarly, once prog phases expire you see lesser used jobs get used more and variant comps like this one.

The only reason most top group are not progging with 4 tanks is the possibility of the fight including a Light Party Mechanic that is almost always targeted on the 2 healers and would result in random wipe if you don't have the standard comp.

Same reason as this fight was cleared with 4 tanks, you need 4 supports and 4 dps for the myriad of pair mechanics and here bringing 4 tanks is the best composition with 4 supports.

If targeting in Savage change at any one point to be more reactive (i.e a way to know the 2 target of the double share in advance) we would probably see a big increase of people going in with 1 healer and a RDM, which can both recover faster from death, and does about double the damage of a healer, nullifying all enrages.
Or they could go the 3 Tanks + healer route, or a lot of other comps, all faster and not that much riskier than having 2 healers.

And yes they can even be safer, say you bring an extra PLD whose only role is using Cover / Intervention on the RDM if things go bad. You could recover from almost any mechanics in the game bar pure raidwipe, compared to a 2 tanks 2 heals comp, if things go bad the healer as the frailest job in the game bar none would usually both die, followed by the casters.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Well let’s look at the examples you provided

Divine veil- it’s a mitigation and bring a shield it’s designed as an Omni mitigation, totally fair and not overpowered. Then it has a heal……..why? Why does your AOE mitigation need a heal. If you look at WAR it’s even more egregious why does it need a regen as well

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Its a weak 400 potency (Which tanks don't have the maim and mend passive unlike healers), on a 90s, Healers have skills that heal and mitigate so why does their AOE healing need mitigation? The holy knight class with strong white magic having one aoe heal on 90s... Crazy! Theirs nothing wrong with abilities having multiple effects, I think it takes it too far when Mitigation abilities like Holy Sheltron have two stacked mitigation effects, I'd personally like it to be something like a consistent 20% Mit with a regen attached to it, but the regen itself isn't even the issue.

A lot of your comments about tank sustain and numbers compared to healing don't even take into account that 500 potency on a tank is way less healing then 500 potency on a healer. That and the fact that healers will have a lot of targetable cooldowns while a tank will have 1 or 2 targetable ones at the best, with a bunch of mitigation Bloat like rampart.

I again will say that it's not "sustain" or even one cooldown that gives out a weak aoe heal thats the issue with tanks, it's the absurd mitigation ontop of that.

>You first improve your healer skill by not using GCD healing
>You then improve your healer skill by not using Big healing CDs
>You then improve your healer skill by not using oGCD healing
>You then improve your healer skill by not playing a healer

We all know healers heals are more powerful than tanks or dps.
But tanks are suited to mitigate big damage spikes which is the damage profile of most encounters.
Tank's weaker heals are also powerful and frequent enough to handle the current damage profile of the hardest content in the game on the second week, done by a group far from optimized, who got in their kill a killtime that would be in the top25 with death and bad plays.

How much worse does it needs to be for healer to be remembered as people to treat decently. Nobody even noticed how AST provide ~10% higher rdps than WHM while we saw PF drop PLD / WAR for doing 5% less damage multiple times.
Nobody cares about healer is the sad truth, but everyone pretend there is no problem, because they sure as heal don't want to be the one who has to play healer when the current base stop being selfless to dare play this dying role.

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Originally Posted by Wyti

We all know healers heals are more powerful than tanks or dps.
But tanks are suited to mitigate big damage spikes which is the damage profile of most encounters.
Tank's weaker heals are also powerful and frequent enough to handle the current damage profile of the hardest content in the game on the second week, done by a group far from optimized, who got in their kill a killtime that would be in the top25 with death and bad plays.

How much worse does it needs to be for healer to be remembered as people to treat decently. Nobody even noticed how AST provide ~10% higher rdps than WHM while we saw PF drop PLD / WAR for doing 5% less damage multiple times.
Nobody cares about healer is the sad truth, but everyone pretend there is no problem, because they sure as heal don't want to be the one who has to play healer when the current base stop being selfless to dare play this dying role.

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I think the day they will react is when their own job is gonna be useless. It's the same with a lot of oppressed people IRL, most people don't care until it concerns them too. They can't understand the problem because they are not the ones suffering from it. Just look at the reaction of tank mains that think it's perfectly ok for them to be self sufficient in every aspect yet want to deny it to other roles. Nobody should be ok with that, even non-healers because SE may very well go after your job in some patch and then you are going to cry alone because everybody that cared would have left already.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

FFXiV and job design are not rocket science, get off your high horse. Elitism isn't going to stop the feedback.

Tanks are broken on every diffculty level btw, not just high end.

I'd also note consider that the meta for an encounter can in fact be different from what is "tradtional". Many players run traditional, but you're assuming that is because of skill level when it could also just be lack of knowledge or motivation. The game actively pushes traditional setup 24/7. I'm not saying that this is true for this encounter, maybe it isn't. But being convenient and being the literal meta based on hard data are separate things. Saying things like "I need to see it more often for it to be true" is a fallacy.

Lastly the players you are praising here use addons.

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I don't think I've said anything to suggest elitism on my part but if I did I'd apologize. For the record, I'm not separating myself from the casual audience that frequents these forums and I've also stated that regardless of skill level doesn't make one opinion more superior to the other. We are all at different steps in our journey.

Also to clarify I was arguing against the idea people only do traditional comps because of a "Skill issue" which infers that those who don't go healerless comp are by default worse than other more skilled players.

The reason I argue against it this is twofold.

One because we are not the pinnacle of players you can't dismiss the majority player base with such a lens AND if we are to do so then you must acknowledge healerless strategies as being the exception, not the rule.
Since it suggests a niche player base of high-performing individuals outside the normal paradigm.
Part of this whole Healer argument is arguing that Healers lack relevance as a whole not only in rare exceptions, but the central focus of this thread itself is a rare exception thus making it a moot point.

Secondly, Metas in gaming is formed through community consensus on the most effective strategies, characters, or loadouts based on game mechanics.

So what we can ascertain from this is that if the meta was to play without healers was indeed the most effective strategy it would be the prevailing strategy even on a PF level, because Players will go down the path of least resistance always.
What we find however in PF and most average statics is the Traditional Comp of Two Tanks, Two Healers (1 Pure/1 Shield), Four DPS (2 Melee and 2 Ranged)

The meta suggests that the easiest way to clear content is the way how the Developers intended it which is the traditional comp. Which is how the developers test their content. This reinforces that the balance of jobs in the game and the role Healers play is at a healthy state not a defective one which is what is being argued here.

And if we are to take on Hard data all you'd have to do is tally the Data Centers based on what type of parties players are looking for.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find alternatives from the norm and have a very easy time finding the traditional comps with very loose exceptions.
(say people who don't care what DPS they have or what healers they have but the two tank, two healer, four dps standard remain)

And to address your last point I don't think I've been outwardly praising anybody specifically.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

I don't think I've said anything

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I'm not really concerned with opinions, just the facts.

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Originally Posted by Nadda;6580625Also to clarify I was arguing [U

against[/U] the idea people only do traditional comps because of a "Skill issue" which infers that those who don't go healerless comp are by default worse than other more skilled players.

One because we are not the pinnacle of players you can't dismiss the majority player base with such a lens AND if we are to do so then you must acknowledge healerless strategies as being the exception, not the rule.
Since it suggests a niche player base of high-performing individuals outside the normal paradigm.
Part of this whole Healer argument is arguing that Healers lack relevance as a whole not only in rare exceptions, but the central focus of this thread itself is a rare exception thus making it a moot point.

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And what I am telling you is that this reasoning is, actually, based on fallacy. Just because you don't see it more often doesn't prove it isn't the meta and doesn't prove healer is only broken under limited scenarios.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

, Metas in gaming is formed through community consensus on the most effective strategies, characters, or loadouts based on game mechanics.

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This is misleading. Meta is typically an objective optimal strategy based on metrics. What you're describing here is a trend. There is a reason the two terms are distinct.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

what we can ascertain from this is that if the meta was to play without healers was indeed the most effective strategy it would be the prevailing strategy even on a PF level, because Players will go down the path of least resistance always.
What we find however in PF and most average statics is the Traditional Comp of Two Tanks, Two Healers (1 Pure/1 Shield), Four DPS (2 Melee and 2 Ranged)

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"Players will go down the path of least resistance always", "We need to see it more to be true". All problematic thinking. Again, could be correct, just not how you prove that including healers is the most efficient way to beat any given encounter objectively.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

meta suggests that the easiest way to clear content is the way how the Developers intended it which is the traditional comp. Which is how the developers test their content. This reinforces that the balance of jobs in the game and the role Healers play is at a healthy state not a defective one which is what is being argued here.

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The thread is not about the easiest way to clear content. It's about how efficiently content can be cleared absent healers. This might be why you're confused.

The thread is also not just about healers, it's also about tanks and both roles in the context of the trinity. Calling the whole thread useless based on one single factor (ie that this hasn't happened much yet) seems irrelevant. You say you aren't praising anyone but you keep implying only exceptional players can do this. Yet the players who did this, literally cheated in this case.

the path of least resistance is just reading a guide and following it

like mentioned earlier in the thread if someone does write up a guide for a no-healer or solo-healer comp I do think we'll start seeing PFs looking to do it

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

the path of least resistance is just reading a guide and following it

if someone does write up a guide for a no-healer or solo-healer comp I do think we'll start seeing PFs looking to do it

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Doubly so if it's the actual meta i.e. if it's the fastest way to end the the encounter.

Which, to be clear, gaming anyway, is typically what meta refers to...the most efficient way to execute the goal. So a meta that is more accessible can still be meta, it would just be suboptimal, is what I am saying.

Didn't yoshi p say that savage was under tuned this time around and apologized for it?

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Doubly so if it's the actual meta i.e. if it's the fastest way to end the the encounter.

Which, to be clear, gaming anyway, is typically what meta refers to...the most efficient way to execute the goal. So a meta that is more accessible can still be meta, it would just be suboptimal, is what I am saying.

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We won't see no-healer runs ne the norm ever again thanks to FFlogs. FFLogs proved in HW it determined what the meta is and ever since they separated normal comp from abnormal comps we stopped seeing the mass amount of no healer runs or 1 healer runs. A few groups do it for fun now but thats all.

Ya, would definitely like for them to be recombined if only out of spite

I don't super feel as if this is an issue.
This is the same case as every other savage fight being cleared w/o healers atm. It's a group of extremely cracked players, playing out of their gourds, likely with off-meta melds and armour pieces, and strats to even make it possible.

I don't really think the fights being cleared w/o a healer present is screaming "Healers aren't needed in X content!!!" like I've seen some people equate it to. For like 99.99% of the playerbase, they're still gonna bring a healer anyway and in most cases, yeah the healers actually need to be doing their job.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Didn't yoshi p say that savage was under tuned this time around and apologized for it?

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Wasn't their a fight last expansion that was over tuned and people got upset over it? Wasn't it tge ultimate fight? We really are a community that cannot be pleased short from pure perfection.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

We won't see no-healer runs ne the norm ever again thanks to FFlogs. FFLogs proved in HW it determined what the meta is and ever since they separated normal comp from abnormal comps we stopped seeing the mass amount of no healer runs or 1 healer runs. A few groups do it for fun now but thats all.

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I wouldn't underestimate the incompetence of the dev team, personally between the current job reworks and the state of tanks. As far as how minor healerless runs are or remain, this is kind of like arguing that it's ok when your air container fails because it only happens once in a while. There's still a long term problem with your air conditioner whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

And the thing is, it isn't just hardcore. Two days in a row I've gotten Tender Valley on Expert and the healer/other DPS died to the Greatest Labyrinth. The boss has too much health at that point for a job with little mitigation like BLM to survive all 45%. So what happened both times? We had a WAR who didn' just restart and kept going after I eventually died. Maybe it's anecdotal but I feel like I've seen that entirely too much this expansion and read too many comments, posts or threads about it. Frankly I'm tired of myriad easily solved problems this game has and I unsubbed today actually.

And before someone says it, yes I left and took the penalty. That's ridiculous. Players shouldn't incur penalties because the dev team can't design a game right.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Wasn't their a fight last expansion that was over tuned and people got upset over it? Wasn't it tge ultimate fight? We really are a community that cannot be pleased short from pure perfection.

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It wasn't ultimate, it was P8S. People got upset about it because some comps required crit fishing to clear the fight before the HP nerf.

It's more the result of bad job balance more than an overtuned fight, but I digress.

To be fair Savage was tuned just fine DPS wise. They just didn't have time to adjust and retest the Savage numbers after they buffed the DPS of jobs at launch and they apologised for it. That wont be the norm going forward this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It wasn't ultimate, it was P8S. People got upset about it because some comps required crit fishing to clear the fight before the HP nerf.

It's more the result of bad job balance more than an overtuned fight, but I digress.

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Was that the fight where they said the devs that tested the fight handled it fairly easy so they tweaked the numbers?

Lol isn't that low key the definition of over tunning? That was my point no matter what people will complain and be upset about something short from sheer perfection. Even then I am not sure.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Was that the fight where they said the devs that tested the fight handled it fairly easy so they tweaked the numbers?

Lol isn't that low key the definition of over tunning? That was my point no matter what people will complain and be upset about something short from sheer perfection. Even then I am not sure.

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It's not overtuned because the fight can be cleared, it's just harder on certain comps because you have to fish for crits, which makes it more a job balance issue than a fight tuning issue.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Wasn't their a fight last expansion that was over tuned and people got upset over it? Wasn't it tge ultimate fight? We really are a community that cannot be pleased short from pure perfection.

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uh ... if you go to the restaurant and order a dish:

- If it comes out raw, you should complain.

- If it comes out burn, you should also complain.

- I don't think asking for your good to be cook right is asking too much, do you?

I don't think the "people can't seem make up their mind" argument will work here.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It's not overtuned because the fight can be cleared, it's just harder on certain comps because you have to fish for crits, which makes it more a job balance issue than a fight tuning issue.

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If it could be cleared why make the adjustment at all? Just tell those jobs to play a different class? Wait for extra tome gear idk. Still seems like people are expecting SE to balance everything perfectly.

At the core isn't that what would happen if they made more busy healers and easier healers? If the busy healer is not overly stronger than the easier healer people will complain about that. If the easier healer is not as strong as the busy healer people will ask for buffs.

I just don't know exactly what people are expecting. Even this fight while easy is still fun as hell.. SE really cannot please everyone.