YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

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Originally Posted by MuppetBear

You can only be as good as your weakest player.

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And too often its those weak players that are complaining and doing ypyt at the wrong moments. A lot of players arent aware of the diffirences certain dungeons can have (a lvl 79 dungeon can have both the tank and healer running with mostly the lvl 70 tomestone gear and just a few other pieces to match ilvl restrictions, which then makes w2w in many areas impossible (and because of that cause a tank to just take the safe route). Or you have people with lvl80 tomestone gear making it trivial). And this will make those players anoyed quickly.

Some people even think that when a tank dies repeatedly that its the healer to blame, not watching the vuln stacks at all (some players realy love collecting these).

truth, some places are rather painful, Vanaspati for instance, after the first 2 packs, the w2w to the 1st boss can be monstrous, especially to a healer still learning, i play a lot of drk and have to be mindful of how much the healer can handle before i try to yank them all, and sometimes different tank/healer combos seem to work better or worse, i def notice as a drk enjoyer, astro healers dont mesh well with us, not that they cant handle it, but it seems to stress them a bit if they dont have experience in stressful situations on the class..

my point is tanks should know how much they can handle, dont assume for them if your not the healer, and if you're the healer just tell them if you are bored and want bigger pulls, but understand some of us tanks wont w2w if we dont think we will live threw it.

I'd strongly argue Tanks are the "puller" role just by the simple fact they're the only ones who can survive more than 2 hits/a single gcd without healing lol

On a more serious note, as many have stated, it's all about communication and always polite to ask if the tank/healer is ok with big pulls, specially in leveling dungeons when people are undergeared and/or inexperienced more often than not.

I'm not as petty as to let a dps and specially the healer tank mobs they pulled, but if I stated at the beginning of the run that I'm undergeared or still learning, and they still proceed to pull ahead, multiple times, that is indeed griefing.

I think some of these tanks need to turn on their tank stance and pull targets off of their party members and call it a day, it isn’t that difficult.

You can’t call yourself a tank if you let your party members die because they pulled ahead of you.

If you can’t handle the responsibility, don’t play the role.

Real talk:

Not conforming to widely accepted social norms within a community is the actual griefing.

Most players, in most similar games, adhere to the "tank initiates engagements and is responsible for managing positioning and agro" dynamic. This historical precedent sets a baseline expectation that enables people to wordlessly engage with the content and teamplay dynamics.

No one really talks in random dungeons unless they have to. A greeting is maybe 50/50. Same for a "gg". That's it. And the beauty of just rolling with the standard loadout of role-based expectations is that nothing more than that is necessary.


Tanks dictating the pace and being the ones to initiate/pull just makes sense logistically.

There's countless reasons someone may need to micro-afk or have an unexpected/unavoidable hands-off-keyboard/controller situation. We're all fallible humans with our own personal circumstances that we'd like people to be understanding of. But there's different outcomes/consequences for each role if mob pulls keep rolling in when these types of things happen.

Three roles. Three tiers of severity of outcomes when they disappear briefly or for any extended period but pulls keep coming. Tank being gone unexpectedly or unprepared is probably the worst of the scenarios/outcomes. And easily avoidable for a lot of situations by just letting them do their thing rather than feeling the need to go and tag additional mobs just to silence your dps-fixated brain goblin that's shrieking at you for having a couple seconds of downtime.


You do not know the tank's level of familiarity with the content, or their skill level. And they don't need to communicate it because it's already readily apparent by how much they're pulling - that's their comfort level - you already have the communication from them, to you, telling you their comfort/ability/preference - you just don't like the answer/information.


If you're encountering this many situations where you felt the need to make a PSA about it, maybe YTA. :)


No one should be acting toxic and trying to punish other people by not performing the role they queued for.

But I do not buy the narrative of "The Pure And Innocent DPS Who Was Just Doing What The Rules Say They're Technically Allowed To Do v.s. The Big Mean Bully Tank Who Refused To Do Their Job" - The reality, and probably most flattering scenario, is one where two people are toxic and butt heads, but people like the OP think they have the moral high ground because the rules technically say they're allowed to do what they did.



Weaponizing the ToS/EULA/Player guidelines to wield like a cudgel to engender compliance in your teammates is the absolute zenith of toxicity. I'm truly shockedpikachu.jpg why anyone like the OP is encountering social friction in a team based game.

Well said.

While there are some cases where the tank is not pulling in the "expected way" out of purposefully toxic behavior. However, any response of pulling over the tank is always toxic behavior. You never know when a tank just isn't familiar with the dungeon/content or still learning the ropes. And while trial by fire might be one solution, another is a 30 second break where the healer says "I got your back, and the DPS will burn it down - give it a try." That right there builds enough confidence in most players to go for it.

This question ignores the agency and/or need for the tank to express THEIR desires. Nothing in the rules says you have to W2W; but neither does anything say "tank is the only one that can pull".

So just as a tank deciding to W2W with an inexperienced/slow-to-react healer isn't necessarily in the wrong because they never asked healer "hey are you comfortable with big pulls?", neither are DPS in the wrong for pulling and expecting tank to take aggro. At the most fundamental level, "pulling" isn't a role of ANYONE, so anyone can do it. But tank IS expected to take and hold aggro by virtue of that being their job (else tank stance wouldn't exist).

Of course, this would require a tank to speak up and say "hey guys, I'm not confident in moving this fast, can you not pull for me please?" Now, personally, I don't think that tank really should be making such requests IF healer can manage them - a sprout tank panicking because they are getting down to 10% HP routinely and having no trust in their healer's ability should take it as a learning experience that they don't need to be so cautious.

My personal feelings aside, of course, at the end of the day once the tank expresses a gameplay preference, the others should accommodate, same as if the healer demanded to slow things down (and the inverse is true, if one or the other of the healer or tank wanna push W2W, that's THEIR preference). If you have one of each - healer wants to W2W, tank wants to single pull - communication needs to occur to find a compromise, or for one or the other to concede their desire entirely. Of course, god forbid you even entertain the notion of doing something in any way closer to how someone else wants to do things.

But if like, 3/4 of the party verbally/textually agrees to single pull and then you have one DPS still grabbing extra mobs, then and only then does it become demonstrably disruptive play on their part.

Short of that, if tank doesn't otherwise say "I don't like having these many mobs on me" or healer doesn't say "I can't keep up with healing tank with these pulls", then there's no case. Tank refusing to take aggro isn't doing their job, and hasn't expressed any reason (personal or gameplay-wise) why they aren't doing so. Once tank DOES express their feelings, then and only then can the 3 other party members be expected to consider them as a factor; but they aren't fucking mind readers who can tell you have "tanxiety" and it's not their job to pull slowly just in case you're nervous. It IS your job to take aggro.

Its crazy how much seriously people take something thats suppose to be a fun game.

If you dont vibe with your party, leave and find a new one. Complaining about it is just screaming into a void you will never control how others play no matter how many threats you make or long diatribes you post.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Well said.

While there are some cases where the tank is not pulling in the "expected way" out of purposefully toxic behavior. However, any response of pulling over the tank is always toxic behavior. You never know when a tank just isn't familiar with the dungeon/content or still learning the ropes. And while trial by fire might be one solution, another is a 30 second break where the healer says "I got your back, and the DPS will burn it down - give it a try." That right there builds enough confidence in most players to go for it.

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Then I guess I'm toxic. Unlike DPS and Healing roles, Tanks have it the easiest that they're practically getting carried by everyone. All they gotta do is AoE and pop mitigations and they're the perfect Tank. All dungeons play out the same with the only difference being boss fights.

ARR dungeons it's fine to go slow, but once you're at 50 to (and especially) 90, maybe it's time to go w2w.

I'm one of those guys that will actually try and get aggro back, but it still has issues when dps pulls a lot of stuff for you.

1. most important one: dps cant see my defensive cooldowns, and pulling ½ the dungeon while they are on CD is often a wipe. There's a reason why I sometimes slow down a bit.
2. Mob placement often gets messed up, and AoEing them down takes a bit longer.
3. dps has no feeling of the healer, tank gets that from like the first pull. If the healer struggles to keep you alive after pulling 6 mobs, it's properly a bad idea for the dps to pull another 6 because he wants to go faster.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Then I guess I'm toxic. Unlike DPS and Healing roles, Tanks have it the easiest that they're practically getting carried by everyone. All they gotta do is AoE and pop mitigations and they're the perfect Tank. All dungeons play out the same with the only difference being boss fights.

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Make a pre-made without a tank. Problem solved. No carries.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Then I guess I'm toxic. Unlike DPS and Healing roles, Tanks have it the easiest that they're practically getting carried by everyone. All they gotta do is AoE and pop mitigations and they're the perfect Tank. All dungeons play out the same with the only difference being boss fights.

ARR dungeons it's fine to go slow, but once you're at 50 to (and especially) 90, maybe it's time to go w2w.

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Honestly, I don't want someone who picked up GNB as their first tank job 2 hours ago to be trying to wall to wall in Ghimlyt Dark. I really don't.

You can't dump every player with the same expectations because there are different paths to get to the same place. Some will have more experience. Some will have much less.

As for tanks being carried by everyone else, I promise that's not always the case. Skill and experience are still a factor, and a competent tank should have no problem soloing most dungeon fights when the rest of the party dies. Other roles don't have the mitigation or toolkit to be able to do that at higher levels.

When it comes to wall-to-wall pulls, I keep in mind the context. If it is roulette (which is likely the only reason I'd run any of this content), you get what you get. Many tanks go wall to wall, some don't. Some party members aren't AOEing. But that's why we get an exp bonus and/or tomes and other goodies.

Just be grateful we don't have to shout in Jeuno...er... Limsa for a party every day to do a dungeon or trial.

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Originally Posted by Rolanberries

That's fine, but pulling as a dps or healer is not griefing (main point of the OP), unlike refusing to grab the aggro from dps or healer. Besides, there's plenty of tools for tanks and healers to use to handle big pulls with ease. Tanks who prefer small pulls for whatever reason have options such as trust, or letting their party know from the start since it's usually the norm to do wall to wall pulls. It's simply just a you problem at that point if you're refusing to cooperate with your team and use extra cooldowns if one of your party members happen to pull.

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I disagree. The tank chooses what he feels he can take. A excellent example of this is many of the "hard" duties where many tanks often overpull due to their missing class kit abilities. If you wish to pull mobs then simply play tank; that options is open to everyone. the fundamental difference is this.

If I refuse to grab mobs that you decide to pull then I am making a choice.
If you try to FORCE me to grab mobs that you are choosing to pull; you are REMOVING my ability to make a choice.

A good example would be like arbitrarily deciding that DPS are griefing if their damage is not high enough; just as some people get upset that the pulls are not fast enough; I've been in plenty of runs where DPS is so bad that fights take x2/x3 times longer. That can also be determined simply by seeing how many times you see the mechanics. "Well I saw 3 tank busters which means we took too long; so DPS is clearly griefing"

So a tank choosing the pace at which they perform their own role is no different then a DPS playing the class with the rotation they are comfortable with. While it may very well be sub-optimal; its the reality that not everyone is some great player. I will always stand with the decision that allows players to make choices rather then be forced into them. A Tank that is forced to grab mobs that someone is choosing to pull is being denied the ability to take on what they are comfortable with; the same arguement goes for tanks that overpull when the healer cannot keep up healing (yet almost no one ever blames shitty healers).

So Tanks will take what they want to tank; their function is to pull threat on mobs so that the group can progress; the better the tank the less healing they need and the faster those pulls happen and the more damage they contribute to clearing the mobs.
DPS job is to reduce the health of mobs; the better they do that the faster those pulls will happen.
Healers job is to increase the health of their allies while also potentially reducing the duration of the pull by contributing to clearing the mobs.

None of those functions are "mandatory" by the actions of someone other then yourself.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Then I guess I'm toxic. Unlike DPS and Healing roles, Tanks have it the easiest that they're practically getting carried by everyone. All they gotta do is AoE and pop mitigations and they're the perfect Tank. All dungeons play out the same with the only difference being boss fights.

ARR dungeons it's fine to go slow, but once you're at 50 to (and especially) 90, maybe it's time to go w2w.

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Respectfully,
There are plenty of situations where that is really not the case; Doman Castle is a good example where some tank classes can get easily killed if they overpull unless the healer is on the spot. All DPs needs to do is a rotation, All the healer needs to do is top everyone off. So by your logic the Tank is actually the most complex given they have twice as many tasks they need to actually concern themselves with according to what I would consider a gross oversimplification.

All the classes have a fair bit of wiggle room that will distinguish a good player of the role from a bad one; stuff like interrupts; using the right CD for the right situation; using unique class functions to prevent a wipe are all examples of this. I will not disagree that the general bar for entry to "pass" the content is pretty low; but that applies to all the roles and not only the tank - hell I've seen so many cases where healers in Dead Ends for example did not heal the DPS during the last boss which resulted in said DPS dying due to the sheer volume of unavoidable AOE damage that the boss puts out.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

You can not physically pull more than a group can handle either.

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Have you done Anamnesis Anyder? Because if you run your group from the 2nd last boss to just before the final boss, there are no walls. You can pull from start to finish. If you run with a full team through all of that, it also means it will spawn extra adds because you are supposed to kill mobs before they finish summoning. If you let them summon by just sprinting to the end, not only will you have like 6 packs to kill, you'll also have every extra summoned creature. Unless you have the best dungeon party in the game, there is no possible way to actually beat this many enemies.

So yes, you can physically pull more than a group can handle

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Originally Posted by Renkyrie

So yes, you can physically pull more than a group can handle

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You vastly overestimate how hard this pull is. When it was current content roughly 1/3 of the groups i was in went for the full pull, about half stopped at the summoners, and the remainder were single pullers. But i needed a level 80 dungeon for Khloe this week, so i pulled up duty support. I stopped during this section to take notes, but i was double pulling for most of the dungeon. So, the final stretch of Anamnesis. There are 4 groups not 6. The first is 3 standard enemies toward the top of the ramp. The second group is 2 summoners. If you let them finish both summons you wind up with 4 monsters(the NPCs with no help from me were only 1 good attack from killing one of these summoners and spoiling my data set) 1 big one from the near crystal and 3 small from the far. Halfway to the exit here you come across 3 more standard mobs. And in front of the exit to the area are the final 3 summoners. I was able to trick the NPCs into not killing a summoner, and the result was 5 more(3 smalls from the center crystal, 2 bigs from the outer ones). But before you say "20 mobs! see! far too many", this isnt how the pull actually works. If you sprint through to the last group and start tossing out the AoEs you have only 6 active NPCs fighting you, with 3 summoners mixed in and 2 summoners left in your dust. Any normal group should have 1 or 2 of the final summoners stopped, and the regular mobs mostly dead by the time the group you left behind catches up. Tank tosses a couple AoEs into the newly summoned mobs to get everything in order, and the fight ends shortly thereafter. Requires "the best dungeon party in the game'"? Hardly.

so... is it alright for healers to stand around for 50% of the time and do nothing because its too stressfull to switch targets and throw a dot here and there?

is it alright for dps to not use their off global cooldowns because its to stressful to use skills more often then every 2.5 second?

because when the tank slacks off i gonna do so as well... and its not gonna be fun for the group losing that much time and for the tank to run out of mitigation.

One time, in Heavensward, I ran Sohr Khai as a BLM and did everything in my rotation perfect... except every time I was meant to cast Fire IV, I casted a cross-classed Ruin.

I entered and maintained Astral Fire III. I applied Thunder. I refreshed Enochian with Blizzard IV. I maneuvered around using Swiftcast and Aetherial Manipulation, but instead of spending every free GCD casting my 508 potency spell, I casted an 80 potency one instead.

I wanted to see what the group would say. They didn't say anything. They probably didn't notice. Even got a comm. I got bored and felt bad, and never did it again.

Pretending that I had a point and didn't just want to share a silly story, most people won't notice a dps screwing with the party like until they're comfortable enough that they can see beyond their own tunnel vision, but it's really noticeable when a tank refuses to tank. It's noticeable, but it doesn't prevent your group from succeeding without their help.

This type of attitude is why I started to bring actual potions in case I have to do old content.

Most of the time I have seen tanks over pulling to where they die, because the healer isn't that good. There are rare instances where other people pull ahead of the tank, and the tank still dies mainly being due to being undergeared...either way, I bring potions and have my second wind ready, because I don't feel like starting over. Situation is usually better if I'm a melee due to bloodbath.

Don't know why this is still a thing. If you're a tank and you don't like other people pulling for you just quit. You won't have to deal with it longer, and it'll be someone else's problem.

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Originally Posted by Renkyrie

Have you done Anamnesis Anyder? Because if you run your group from the 2nd last boss to just before the final boss, there are no walls. You can pull from start to finish[...]

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Not quite. Frizze meticulously breaks down the reasons. If any, Mt.Gulg's first pull probably fits better for being a potential 5-pack pull with not-so-high ilv syncing on top of that. Or some ARR dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

You vastly overestimate how hard this pull is[...]

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Ever since I reached lv cap back in ShB mid 5.2, I don't think I've ever seen people -not- wall pulling that part.

I'm more surprised that I'm only starting to see tanks stopping at 2nd pack around late 6.05... and I could count on one hand for the amount of time that actually happened up till now.

This entire discussion is what causes DF anxiety, particularly for tanks and healers. Having pretty much always tanked and sometimes healed in this game, and talking to folks in my FC about tanking/healing, the "you never know how you're going to get treated" aspect of DF is legit scary, particularly as one LEARNS the content, which to me is any content you haven't put on farm/grind.

I have never done YPYT, and I never will. Easier to sigh, treat the newly arrived bad guys as adds, do my AE thing and just finish the dungeon. I get why some tanks might get all offended, but I figure it is DPS who are too lazy to make a simple, polite "/p you can pull faster, because we got this, no problem" macro. I know I have the "/p still learning this dungeon/trial, sorry in advance for going slow or goofing up" macro, and I don't recall it taking long to make that macro. I know, I know...why should a DPS have to make that simple macro and add the one extra click to their DF day when it is so much easier to give that tank some "you suck at your job" anxiety...but hey, they give us that whole macro ability, so what the heck?

Also, others have said it, being a certain level means nothing for how experienced you are with group content. You can ding level 90 and finish MSQ by doing less than half the dungeons/trials and doing them only one time. This flies in the face of a very real, very common expectation in this game - that you know the content as well as the most experienced player and have practiced it as much as them. Because of that very thing and countless other "YPYT", "healers must max DPS" and "your DPS rotation must be XYZ else you s*ck" discussions since I joined the game originally, I am purposely taking this new sprout through a serious OCD grind/practice run, where I am still doing ARR content at level 60, even though I have MSQ to HW. DF anxiety is real, and until I feel like I have one xpac figured out, no need to move forward since all I am doing is adding things to DF that I am still learning.

The expectation is real. For any sprouts out there reading this thread, my suggestions are 1) do the Relic Reborn series for whatever your main class is...you have to do tons of dungeon/trial practice, and 2) any time you feel like you goofed up or just didn't feel like you "got it" in that last dungeon/trial, then select it specifically from DF and queue for it like 3-5x in a row, or until you feel like you get it. At some point, you will pop that DF with everyone OTHER than you being "played since 2014, and this game bores me" vets, and they have an expectation. A lot of practice goes a long way with those folks. That, and a "my bad, still n00b" macro. YMMV

While i agree that the mindset is stupid, it is a display of poor manners. I get slightly annoyed at times when people pull for me. Though this is rare because i just w2w most of the time.
It communicates that you think the tank's pace is too slow, and they might not feel comfortable pulling that extra pack. Or, in my case, if i had to overmitigate on the first pull for any reason (Usually mobs not dying before my mits expire) i'm going to take it a bit slower on the next one. There could be any variety of reasons why a tank is pulling slower.

All that being said, yes. You tank you pull is a stupid mindset and defeats the purpose of a tank. I know it can be tempting at times, but don't go on that power trip. Just play dps if you don't want to tank.

I don't understand the issue here. It's pretty simple. FF, like other MMO's uses the holy trinity system, and the jobs are named by class tank, healer dps are people confused?

Tank- The Tank role is one of the most important roles in an MMO raid team. The tank is responsible for drawing the attention of the enemy and absorbing as much damage as possible. This allows the rest of the team to focus on dealing damage or healing without having to worry about being attacked.

Healer- The Healer role also serves one of the most important roles in an MMO raid team. The healer is responsible for keeping everyone alive by using their healing spells and abilities. As the fights continue, it is often normal for everyone in the team to take damage at different levels. Healers replenish the health bars and keep everyone active to continue working towards a successful end to the battle. This work to remove damage allows the rest of the team to focus on dealing their own damage or tanking on the enemies without having to worry about the attacks knocking them out of the fight permanently.

DPS- The DPS role (stands for Damage-Per-Second) is all about dealing as much damage to the enemy as possible. In most games, there are multiple ways to DPS effectively. Players who select the DPS role at the beginning of the storyline will often specialize in that area throughout our journey. As the story progresses their abilities become more impressive. This allows for more dramatic effects to be linked together during the growth of the character. Essentially, a DPS player will deal larger numbers of damage to their enemies the more skill they develop playing their character. Melee DPS stands close to the enemy and uses physical attacks to deal damage while ranged DPS players stand further away and use spells to achieve victory over their enemies.

Am i reading any of this wrong? If a dps goes and pulls, the tank has to remove the add from them, that's less time the dps is on what the tank is already holding. Your job as the dps is not to pull and tank, you kill what the tank is holding for you.
Same with a healer puling or running in onto the boss and pulling it. You HEAL the tank, This game is designed that if done right, a dps should not be taking damage anyway, and yes, we can get into this whole puke about how a healer is a green dps, but if there is nothing to heal, in any game, a healer helps dps things down anyway.

If a dps/healer is running and pulling, you ARE slowing your dungeon run down. you're job is to kill stuff, or heal, not pull or tank stuff, unless the tank misses an add. you then grab it, and take it TO the tank.

How hard is this? No place in the game does it say a dps can pull, no where in the ToS does it say anyone can pull.

ToS DOES say, that if you are interfering with the game of another that is grounds for report.

Stop making a job be something it's not. do what you are supposed to within the rules of your job

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Originally Posted by Black_Gallows

Healer- The Healer role also serves one of the most important roles in an MMO raid team. The healer is responsible for keeping everyone alive by using their healing spells and abilities. As the fights continue, it is often normal for everyone in the team to take damage at different levels. Healers replenish the health bars and keep everyone active to continue working towards a successful end to the battle. This work to remove damage allows the rest of the team to focus on dealing their own damage or tanking on the enemies without having to worry about the attacks knocking them out of the fight permanently.

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You wanna know what I do as a healer if the tank pulls small and I'm not running ahead? I spam Holy/Art of War/Gravity/Dyskrasia and ignore my actual role entirely. Why? Tanks literally don't take enough damage for me to ever need to look at them in a three mob scenario, especially on Sage/Scholar. In fact, the outgoing damage is so minimal a DPS can easily tank three mobs and be perfectly fine. Single pulls are so laughable as you climb levels they render tanks or healers completely obsolete. If you were to single pull any 50+ dungeon (and honestly, some below that), you'd be better off with TDDD or HDDD. Every other MMO with a holy trinity doesn't allow for that as mobs will actually kill DPS or Healers. They can hardly scratch either in FFXIV.

There's a reason people meme Warrior needs a green icon.

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If a dps/healer is running and pulling, you ARE slowing your dungeon run down. you're job is to kill stuff, or heal, not pull or tank stuff, unless the tank misses an add. you then grab it, and take it TO the tank.

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Thing is, this is objectively false. Most mob packs are close enough it takes all of a single GCD's pace to aggro them and they'll come running to right where everyone already is. In the few exceptions this isn't the case, you still aren't accounting for everyone having less abilities to throw at mobs if you single pull. Since you have Dark Knight in your profile, I'll use it as an example. If you do a single pull, you won't have Living Shadow, Shadowbringer or Salted Earth/Darkness for the next pull until that set of mobs is nearly dead, which means you won't have them for the boss either. No matter how you slice it that's a bet loss to your killing efficiency. And it much worse for DPS jobs. Dragoon loses out on Dragonfire Dive, Nastrond, Stardiver, Dragon Sight and Battle Litany. All won't be available because you split up two baby pulls. Not to mention, it's only a DPS gain for most jobs to AoE on three targets or more. So you're slowing down by virtue of there being less to kill.

All this compared to losing a single GCD or two to run ahead, tag the second group of mobs and stand on the tank while they come running. It takes a handful of seconds at best and vastly increases the efficiency. The sole exception are early ARR dungeons where melee lack AoE abilities and in general most jobs don't have a good kit to play with.

There is never a scenario where pulling a second pack for the tank takes longer. Single pulling adds upwards of 10+ minutes. Even Trusts can handle double packs. In fact, I've made Alphinaud do the partial super pull in Mt. Gulg. You can't go the whole distance but you can absolutely make the Trusts deal with 6+ mobs. So any tank pulling less is admitting they're worse than a bot.

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How hard is this? No place in the game does it say a dps can pull, no where in the ToS does it say anyone can pull.

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Nowhere does it say they can't either. You are told, as a tank, however, to "take aggro off your ally" by the Hall of the Novice NPCs. Which implies letting the DPS die for petty reasons doesn't make for a good player.

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ToS DOES say, that if you are interfering with the game of another that is grounds for report.

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Pulling extra mobs doesn't interfere with someone's gameplay because the intent isn't malicious. Intentionally allowing them to die, on the other hand, does.

Tank is the one who is ''leading'' the party and sets the pace. DPS and Healer should react to what the tank does. That is if nothing is said beforehand.
i know playing a healer or dps that a tank that do single pulls can be annoying but as a tank its also annoying playing a tank if the dps or healer starts pulling.

tanks who does too small pulls aren't right and dps and healers who pulls aren't right, both are wrong!

although in this game this is a very minor issue since threat isn't an issue.

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Originally Posted by Vedfur

Tank is the one who is ''leading'' the party and sets the pace. DPS and Healer should react to what the tank does.

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Not quite. Available capacities should set the pace.

It makes sense then to have whoever can consistently track and act in accordance with those capacities be the pace-setter, especially if their face-pulling conveniences the party as a whole. The latter bonus is typically most true of a tank, but if the tank actually knows less how to track and plan around the party's capacities than others, then their leading defeats the whole point of that leadership.

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although in this game this is a very minor issue since threat isn't an issue.

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Outside of the handful of people in this thread attempting to take a moral high ground for their purposefully neglecting their jobs and griefing their party, this. That's the crux of it.

If you pull and you're not the tank, the healer reserves the right to let you take a dirt nap to think it over.

Ahhh. This post is the best.

Hey Community, remember back in Stormblood when tanks were like 'Hey guys I'm going to need you to handle your own mitigation so I can do more damage' and everyone said 'Yes daddy/mommy/thotty?'

Remember how they 'streamlined' the roles in Shadowbringers so we would all be really clear on what was expected of them after a horde of asshats decided to force casual players into following tank meta because the internet said it was BiS? Won't that be fun to go through again?

The devs, historically, don't like this kind of role-swapping. The kind that typically messes with the rigid role system the game has. Is it inherently harmful? No. But it undermines the game's basic structure and the more new players are exposed to it, the more they will think its the way things are done when it's really just a current trend that changes whenever the jobs are tweaked.


But it's whatever. I'm content to follow the rabbit hole to see what happens.

But if it's griefing for the tank to let you handle a pack of ads you PURPOSELY grabbed (not on accident or after a mutual understanding as to what you were doing), then its also griefing for healers to leave you dead after you died to an avoidable mechanic for the third-plus time during the same battle while they focus on people who know the content or for your fellow DPS to steal your Limit Break because you sat on it too long. (That's pretty weak but I honestly have no idea how DPS grief each other XD).

Moral of the story? Consult your team. Play your role. Don't be a dick. When a team is all in agreement, its a beautiful and amazing thing. Too bad its so rare.

The tank responsibility is to keep agro, group the mobs and mitigate. Not to save you when you pull on your own.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Nowhere does it say they can't either. You are told, as a tank, however, to "take aggro off your ally" by the Hall of the Novice NPCs. Which implies letting the DPS die for petty reasons doesn't make for a good player.

Pulling extra mobs doesn't interfere with someone's gameplay because the intent isn't malicious. Intentionally allowing them to die, on the other hand, does.

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It's very loose if the tank states they cant handle more than x mobs then yes you are griefing if you wipe the party.

i mean what does a tank do? a tank spams aoe and rotates through their mitigation skills. there is not much difference if there are 5 or 15 enemies... not for the tank.

the healer is the one who feels the differences the most. instead of spamming the one dmg button they will havee to heal.... so the healer should be the one to decide how much gets pulled, no?