People advertising they're running Parsers

It's this double standard I can't stand. People who bot use mods and dps meters are breaking the rules but se won't do anything about it. As long as you are using market board and auto farming bots you are safe if you don't slip you bot. But people can't report you because it isn't enforced. I've reported botters for years and these same people play 24/7 and have made billions of gil at the cost of destroying anyone who wants to try to make money with trade skills. Seeing 20 bots instantly swarm houses as well is fun

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

The rest does matter because he has expanded on that statement which includes the things I mentioned. If you truly agree with the spirit of the rule, you wouldn't be arguing this. You are arguing that people should be following the letter of the rule rather than the spirit of the rule. In which case, we should be banned for using things like discord.

Should people be advertising that they use parsers? No, they shouldn't. However, it isn't because parsers will lead them to becoming toxic players, but because they are risking their accounts due to overzealous people taking advantage of the letter of the rule. In a perfect world, you would only get banned if you were using a parser in a toxic manner, namely harassing people over their DPS. However, it is not a perfect world and thus careless but otherwise innocent players will get punished for it.

That being said, does it mean the people who are reporting even innocent mentioning's of parsers are free from guilt, even though they cannot be persecuted in anyway? No, they are not. They are being toxic themselves, and while no action can be taken against them, it does not mean what they did was right. You really should only be reporting people if they are being toxic with parsers, that would be following the spirit of the rule; just because you can report someone doesn't always mean you should report them.

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i'm just saying, people should not use it in the first place, because it's not allowed.
it doesn't mean people should go after those using it and smash the report buttom all day long lol

the only reason i'm arguing this is because some people sounds like it's okay to break one or two rules if they're not being toxic.

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Originally Posted by Yuuujiii

i'm just saying, people should not use it in the first place, because it's not allowed.
it doesn't mean people should go after those using it and smash the report buttom all day long lol

the only reason i'm arguing this is because some people sounds like it's okay to break one or two rules if they're not being toxic.

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Literally yes, it is ok then. The rule was not made for people who dont use parsers for toxic ends. Following the TOS word for word is nonsensical, you need follow the idea behind those words. If you follow the TOS word for word then suddenly you should get banned for using discord voice chat or for gear calculation in excel. If you only follow the TOS word for word when it suits your arguement, you dont really care about the rules anyway.

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Originally Posted by Yuuujiii

i'm just saying, people should not use it in the first place, because it's not allowed.
it doesn't mean people should go after those using it and smash the report buttom all day long lol

the only reason i'm arguing this is because some people sounds like it's okay to break one or two rules if they're not being toxic.

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Because it is. By using parsers and not belittling others, as well as not mentioning using it in game, they are following the spirit of the rule.

By your logic, people shouldn't be using discord, web browsers to look up information on the game, or OBS to record gameplay, just to name some examples.

That is following the letter of the rule, not the spirit of the rule. Yoshi P and the devs could probably make parsers impossible if they truly wanted to, but they don't. Fact is, the raiding scene depends on parsers, it is a necessity for raiding. The analytic capabilities that it enables allows for the raiding scene to even work. Yoshi P and the devs understand this, but they have to make an official statement. That's why there is a no third party rule, but the ability to parse still exists as it functions on a don't ask don't tell policy. It is also why they will only take action if you mention you use it in game. You can talk about it all you want off-game, but they won't take action unless it was stated in game.

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Originally Posted by Yuuujiii

i'm just saying, people should not use it in the first place, because it's not allowed.
it doesn't mean people should go after those using it and smash the report buttom all day long lol

the only reason i'm arguing this is because some people sounds like it's okay to break one or two rules if they're not being toxic.

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I hope you're not using Discord, my guy. You know that's third party software. It's kinda reportable.

I dont mind if you use parsers, thats your thing. But if Im in a dungeon and you tell me you're using it maybe I interpret it as a threat or intimidation and I will not hesitate to report it. Luckily i never saw a person doing this kind of thing.

Okay thank you folks, you genuinely convinced me lol

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Originally Posted by Nyran

I dont mind if you use parsers, thats your thing. But if Im in a dungeon and you tell me you're using it maybe I interpret it as a threat or intimidation and I will not hesitate to report it. Luckily i never saw a person doing this kind of thing.

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Well yeah people don't really do it to evaluate others, they do it to see if they are doing well and take steps to improve themselves for higher content.

Anyone announcing what they are doing is just asking for trouble.

"Run whatever parser you may find but remember, the beast is mine!" - Gaston playing FF14 jk <3 kupo

considering i main bard, i have been getting side eye like 1 out of 10 run everytime i join party, stuff like "oh no bard" or "welp low dps" or "this is going to take long isnt it?", i have been eating that "critique" like breakfast for a long time

doing parser is fine as long they use it for their own research/reference, as long they dont use it to "check" which one is doing the lowest dps then start finger pointing to that person, do that and you are welcomed to my blacklist lol

is this some sort of NA joke that i am too EU to understand

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Originally Posted by gumas

considering i main bard, i have been getting side eye like 1 out of 10 run everytime i join party, stuff like "oh no bard" or "welp low dps" or "this is going to take long isnt it?", i have been eating that "critique" like breakfast for a long time

doing parser is fine as long they use it for their own research/reference, as long they dont use it to "check" which one is doing the lowest dps then start finger pointing to that person, do that and you are welcomed to my blacklist lol

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I dont think you are getting side eye'd for your performance but because bard has been a rather weak dps for quite some time.

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Originally Posted by Ashua

It's this double standard I can't stand. People who bot use mods and dps meters are breaking the rules but se won't do anything about it. As long as you are using market board and auto farming bots you are safe if you don't slip you bot. But people can't report you because it isn't enforced. I've reported botters for years and these same people play 24/7 and have made billions of gil at the cost of destroying anyone who wants to try to make money with trade skills. Seeing 20 bots instantly swarm houses as well is fun

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Let's not go conflating two very different things. Texture mods and DPS meters are not the same as market board bots. The former two only enhance aesthetic and gameplay for the user while the latter willfully crashes the economy. Only one of these things is harmful no matter how it's used. Nevertheless, you are correct. SE does virtually nothing about non-RMT bots. Which is why they are increasingly more brazen nowadays. It's laughably easy to get away with, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by gumas

considering i main bard, i have been getting side eye like 1 out of 10 run everytime i join party, stuff like "oh no bard" or "welp low dps" or "this is going to take long isnt it?", i have been eating that "critique" like breakfast for a long time

doing parser is fine as long they use it for their own research/reference, as long they dont use it to "check" which one is doing the lowest dps then start finger pointing to that person, do that and you are welcomed to my blacklist lol

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Shouldn't it be the opposite?

Let's say I play a presently underperforming job. You're saying that despite actually keeping up with or outperforming my fellow DPS despite my choice in job I should be okay with being excluded from groups or catching side-eyes on the simple fact that they shouldn't be able to tell that I can more than make up for my job choice?

I'd rather have them use a parser and decide on things only as they actually are than start excluding jobs over community narrative.

Alas, such is blasphemy, I know, to prefer we judge by merit rather than discriminating via mere preconceptions, so long as a third-party tool might be involved.

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Originally Posted by Pavise

Look, as long as they're not abusing anyone by using them all the more power to them.

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I use one occasionally, but I only turn it on if I'm playing within range of another NIN with similar item level. I see no point in comparing myself with different classes, since that reveals nothing about my performance.

Sorry I enjoy transparency, cults and religions are started from keeping people blind of truth and facts.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Cute switching out the letter P with B, but no.

Don't do it, you know it's not allowed. You want to run your Abacus with yourself of your group of friends together, go for it.

Don't ask, Don't tell is still very much in play, people can and will report you for it and if you get caught you're in trouble.

Run your calculator quietly, don't go shouting it out that you are going to check others with your math tools and decide if they can play with you.

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Dont enter the pt then

ok green lol

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I dont think you are getting side eye'd for your performance but because bard has been a rather weak dps for quite some time.

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BRD is a support class, and if you are measuring BRD by dps alone , you are the one making the mistake.

BRD brings a lot to the table, from their songs to Natures Minne and Troubadour, not to mention Warden's Paean and Battle Voice. I keep saying this, but its a fact, dps on its own is NOT a viable metric. You can tunnel the boss all you like, pad your meters...matters zero if you arent using ALL of your toolkit.

All classes are viable, and all classes have a huge amount to offer.

Every time I see these dps meters, i am reminded of an idiot boss who wasnt happy I left work on time..and ignored what I had actually DONE that day.

DPS parsing leads to tunnel vision...which is not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

BRD is a support class, and if you are measuring BRD by dps alone , you are the one making the mistake.

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Virtually any mention of "DPS" since late Stormblood will refer to rDPS (personal damage plus bonus damage contributed minus bonus damage received). As such, it already comprehensively accounts for any support that is not situational to the point of providing no measurable advantage/throughput.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Virtually any mention of "DPS" since late Stormblood will refer to rDPS (personal damage plus bonus damage contributed minus bonus damage received). As such, it already comprehensively accounts for any support that is not situational to the point of providing no measurable advantage/throughput.

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Point proven. You are ignoring or dismissing out of hand the contributions BRD brings to the table.

Using an ability to mitigate damage, remove a debuff and / or provide a shield for another player is a valid contribution.

Wouldnt you agree?

You..DO....know what Troubadour does, dont you?

I can also Repose a mob in a trash pack so that it sleeps for a millisecond before it gets woken up by someone's damage. This is a valid contribution and I deserve to be praised for mitigating 1 DPS worth of damage for the party.

ACT feels a little pointless atm since we haven't even gotten the first balance patch yet.

I have a mixed relationship with damage meters, on the one hand I like them because I like to measure the change in dps as gear goes on and make sure I am reaching a certain expectation.
On the other hand, in cases like this it sucks and feels terrible when you know that you're playing two Jobs correctly and one should be higher but it's *significantly* lower due to balance issues.
It's a bit demoralizing.

Ignorance is bliss basically.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

ACT feels a little pointless atm since we haven't even gotten the first balance patch yet.

I have a mixed relationship with damage meters, on the one hand I like them because I like to measure the change in dps as gear goes on and make sure I am reaching a certain expectation.
On the other hand, in cases like this it sucks and feels terrible when you know that you're playing two Jobs correctly and one should be higher but it's *significantly* lower due to balance issues.
It's a bit demoralizing.

Ignorance is bliss basically.

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Always like matching your signature with what you post. Somehow it fits each time. :p

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Dalamud is simple little program you download for FFXIV. It has dozens if not hundreds of addons that do various things for the game, by modifying its code. Some as simple as letting you get a quicker launcher. Many things, far more ominous that I wont post here.

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To make sure no misinformation is happening here, it does not modify code. It has a DirectX overlay and reads information, but none gets changed. If you are refering to people who change models/textures, that's another program all together.

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Originally Posted by DragonFlyy

To make sure no misinformation is happening here, it does not modify code. It has a DirectX overlay and reads information, but none gets changed. If you are refering to people who change models/textures, that's another program all together.

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Yeah, I'm kind of sick of people being utterly disingenuous when discussing this stuff. Far better to be upfront and fair about what you're talking about, rather than make things out to be bogeymen behind closed doors.

I'm working for a law office in Europe and have only read this threat partly, but using a parser in the EU may violating the existing privacy protection laws.

If a player wants to use a parser for e.g. in a dungeon, trial or raid, he has to ask each other player for permission. Without the permissions of all other players, he is not allowed to track and analyze any data from any player. Yes, also only simple data like doing damage or healing other players in a game are counting as personal data in the EU. From a purely legal point of view, a player in the EU can argue against the player and refer to the EU privcy protection laws.

I'm not sure if the game is already violating the existing EU privacy protection rules when already showing this data in the chat to other players. Not sure if this is standing in the terms and conditions, which has to be agreed by each player before he can play the game. But also here, the terms and conditions are only agreed to SE and not any other players.

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Originally Posted by Mihari

I'm working for a law office in Europe and have only read this threat partly, but using a parser in the EU may violating the existing privacy protection laws.

If a player wants to use a parser for e.g. in a dungeon, trial or raid, he has to ask each other player for permission. Without the permissions of all other players, he is not allowed to track and analyze any data from any player. Yes, also only simple data like doing damage or healing other players in a game are counting as personal data in the EU. From a purely legal point of view, a player in the EU can argue against the player and refer to the EU privcy protection laws.

I'm not sure if the game is already violating the existing EU privacy protection rules when already showing this data in the chat to other players. Not sure if this is standing in the terms and conditions, which has to be agreed by each player before he can play the game. But also here, the terms and conditions are only agreed to SE and not any other players.

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Even if the source of the information is public? ACT reads the battle log which is available to everyone.
I understand asking permission if let's say the information was private and not accessible to everyone and you somehow happen to have access to them, you can't share the information without permission.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Even if the source of the information is public? ACT reads the battle log which is available to everyone.
I understand asking permission if let's say the information was private and not accessible to everyone and you somehow happen to have access to them, you can't share the information without permission.

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That's exactly the point. Showing the information in the battle log could be already wrong. I'm not sure if SE is already violating the EU privacy protection laws here and must anonymize the data in the battle log with e.g. Player1, Player2, Player 3 instead of showing the character names.

But also here from purely legal point of view, seeing and getting the players data in the exisitng battle log does not allow any player to track and analyze this data by his own with e.g. a parser. EU laws are very strict here. You are not are allowed to use any data without permission. Yes, that are the strange EU laws.

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Originally Posted by Mihari

That's exactly the point. Showing the information in the battle log could be already wrong. I'm not sure if SE is already violating the EU privacy protection laws here and must anonymize the data in the battle log with e.g. Player1, Player2, Player 3 instead of showing the character names.

But also here from purely legal point of view, seeing and getting the players data in the exisitng battle log does not allow any player to track and analyze this data by his own with e.g. a parser. EU laws are very strict here. You are not are allowed to use any data without permission. Yes, that are the strange EU laws.

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Would this data include written text that may be posted on a private forum?

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Originally Posted by Mihari

That's exactly the point. Showing the information in the battle log could be already wrong. I'm not sure if SE is already violating the EU privacy protection laws here and must anonymize the data in the battle log with e.g. Player1, Player2, Player 3 instead of showing the character names.

But also here from purely legal point of view, seeing and getting the players data in the exisitng battle log does not allow any player to track and analyze this data by his own with e.g. a parser. EU laws are very strict here. You are not are allowed to use any data without permission. Yes, that are the strange EU laws.

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I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. Otherwise there would've already been action taken, considering the EU is pretty swift to tamp down on that sort of stuff.

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Originally Posted by MilkieTea

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. Otherwise there would've already been action taken, considering the EU is pretty swift to tamp down on that sort of stuff.

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As long as nobody complains officially against it, the authorities will do nothing. But once there is a lawsuit, it will be looked into it. At the moment I don't know any cases in the EU, were the implementation of the privacy protection within multiplayer games has been checked or reviewed by authorities. But if someone don't want that his character name is visible in a log for everyone, it normally has to be implemented.

The best example are apartment buildings in the EU. If a tenant does not want his name on the doorbell, it must be anonymized with for e.g cryptic numbers. The landlord has to ensure that. This general privacy rule rule can also be easily applied to multiplayer games. But as I said, as long as no one complains it, the authorities do nothing here.

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Originally Posted by Jennah

Parsers - unlike mods that change gear appearance or whatever - DON'T modify the game code; they just read the data being sent to the client and tabulate it.

Still technically a TOS violation, but as far as anyone can tell, nobody's been banned ONLY for parsing.

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So, they're breaking into the internet connection between the game client and the server?

How is that any different in effect than changing the game code?

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

So, they're breaking into the internet connection between the game client and the server?

How is that any different in effect than changing the game code?

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They aren't breaking any internet connection. The data comes from the client / server, and is in memory. This memory is read, interpreted, and then written out to a log. This log is what is used for the parser, uploading, etc. So, to answer your question, it's not changing anything; it's just reading what is already in memory.

I am not sure about the people who say that they use/want parsers to determine their performance, either.
The jobs aren't that complex, it's more about remembering their intended rotations and using common guidelines that overlap with each other job. On tanks and healers, it's more situational thing you need awareness for and the ability to look ahead.

If you play the jobs as intended, then you should not need a parser at all. Because that's as good as you can get.
The rest is practice to (re-)learn them.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

I am not sure about the people who say that they use/want parsers to determine their performance, either.
The jobs aren't that complex, it's more about remembering their intended rotations and using common guidelines that overlap with each other job. On tanks and healers, it's more situational thing you need awareness for and the ability to look ahead.

If you play the jobs as intended, then you should not need a parser at all. Because that's as good as you can get.
The rest is practice to (re-)learn them.

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I would disagree. You might think you are playing the job as intended, but there could very well be ways to improve, thus negating your comment about as good as you can get. For example, on EX 1, there is a way to AoE all 4 adds. You might do this, whereas someone else will AoE, but only get 2 of them. Comparing yourself to others is a way keep improving. Now, if you want to talk about shaming people, etc., then that's a different conversation. But to say you don't need a parser to determine if you can improve I think is a pretty objectively false statement.

Man I'm so glad I just play casually. Thancred, Urianger, and Estinien never give me lip in dungeons.

Although, I do worry about that bear Urianger brings everything to.

Yet again a thread full of people (not everyone, aye) ignorant of how parser works, how it's used etc etc but express their expert opinion

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I would disagree. You might think you are playing the job as intended, but there could very well be ways to improve, thus negating your comment about as good as you can get. For example, on EX 1, there is a way to AoE all 4 adds. You might do this, whereas someone else will AoE, but only get 2 of them. Comparing yourself to others is a way keep improving. Now, if you want to talk about shaming people, etc., then that's a different conversation. But to say you don't need a parser to determine if you can improve I think is a pretty objectively false statement.

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I go against this.
Very specific encounters with very specific situations in them don't make a job perform itself 'better' in general. Dragoon Doomspike Line AoE combo might not be able to realiably hit those 4 adds, for instance, vs Monk Arm of the Destroyer combo, which hits everything around the player and is easier to do.

Same goes with those weird rotations that heavily depend on certain stat setups, which easily break once the corresponding job receives a change in balance. Which likely will happen in a .05 or .1 patch.

They are edge cases and only offer miniscule improvement vs the investment effort.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

I go against this.
Very specific encounters with very specific situations in them don't make a job perform itself 'better' in general. Dragoon Doomspike Line AoE combo might not be able to realiably hit those 4 adds, for instance, vs Monk Arm of the Destroyer combo, which hits everything around the player and is easier to do.

Same goes with those weird rotations that heavily depend on certain stat setups, which easily break once the corresponding job receives a change in balance. Which likely will happen in a 6.05 or .1 patch.

They are edge cases and only offer miniscule improvement vs the investment effort.

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I probably wasn't clear, so my apologies. In the example I gave, I meant the same class. So for example, I can stand in a certain spot on BRD and hit all 4 adds at the same time. Another BRD might only hit 2 of them. It's a DPS gain to hold Apex Arrow at 100 gauge for the 2 minute burst, whereas someone might think using it at 100 is the intended way to play it. This goes back to using the parser to improve. I will often either go on Discord to see what tips / recommendations are on a fight by fight basis, but I will also compare my logs to those who are better to see what they are doing so I can improve myself.