Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

Listen up Yoshi. If you nerf warrior it will do nothing but make people abandon the job like they previously did with marauder. Yet again, everyone will switch to BLM and ARC which will get us back in the same boat we were before.
I dont get why cant you just buff PLD so it has some more HP and it takes lot less damage than WAR.
Reconsider your WAR nerf!

I like what they're doing to WAR. It's not an outright simple nerf. Buffing the DD side of it, cuz nobody uses Berserk lol. Simply fixing Steel Cyclone, which is lolwhatbroken, and idk what they'll do to Collude.

I'm sorry for going off-topic.

Maybe one of the japanese experts can answer this. I can't get it out of my mind now.

Yoshi's english version of this post here uses the word "nerf" and I'm wondering if they use that as a loan word in japanese or if they have their own slang for the term.

DRG fix makes me smile :) power surge max power on/off. Can I have it?? impulse drive acc down please remove this.

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Originally Posted by Deltara

I'm sorry for going off-topic.

Maybe one of the japanese experts can answer this. I can't get it out of my mind now.

Yoshi's english version of this post here uses the word "nerf" and I'm wondering if they use that as a loan word in japanese or if they have their own slang for the term.

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Originally Posted by Yoshida

「できる限りの下方修正は行わない」という方針で、これまで調整を実施/検討してきましたが、
戦士に関しては「敵視が安定し、広範囲に高いダメージが出せ、防御力が高い」と、
あまりにも高性能化してしまったため、一部下方修正が発生します。
この点については、本当に申し訳ありません。

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Translated by Rein:

'The direction is to "try as much as possible to not make downgrade changes" and we have been looking/making adjustments but for Warrior the hate is optimal, at same time can deal high damage and has high defense, it became too strong so parts of it will be down graded. For this one I am really sorry.'

So they say "Downgrade" instead of "Nerf".

And to be fair, they are downgrading a minor thing, fixing one WS that is clearly broken, and boosting WARs DD capabilities. Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.

Thanks Yoshida-san, I may actually enjoy playing MRD/WAR again.

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Originally Posted by Hitoriki

I just realized he says 1.22b... not 1.22a... abit disappointing imo. Would like to play my PLD :( But I guess it is nice to know that its coming.

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They're probably going to see how well the new shield adjustments work, and incorporate the new stats in depending on how well received/useful the shield adjustments turn out to be.

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Originally Posted by Cichy

Listen up Yoshi. If you nerf warrior it will do nothing but make people abandon the job like they previously did with marauder. Yet again, everyone will switch to BLM and ARC which will get us back in the same boat we were before.
I dont get why cant you just buff PLD so it has some more HP and it takes lot less damage than WAR.
Reconsider your WAR nerf!

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As Noctus said nothing major is gonna happen to WAR, probably just get some more enmity adjustments and lower defense in exchange for better DPS.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

its on my list of things to do, I run a " leave no man behind' LS dont always have time to spend hours on one dungeon , espesscially when I have members who still need some Ifrits weapons and such.

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too bad you are going to do it on buffed PLD

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Originally Posted by Aion

too bad you are going to do it on buffed PLD

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He'll probably need it.

Follow up... to the majority of Aces posts.

To Ace:

I just want to point out, you've been very contradicting about your arguments that PLD isn't broken and your capabilities. You've stated alot of "why bother documenting or show you guys anything you wont believe me," yet many have posted documented evidence that's backed up by a majority of the community contradicting your claims, yet you outright dispute it without proof of your own.

The only thing I could truly agree on with you is IT DOES function as intended, but it's only strength which is defense is severely lacking. The rest of what you say really make's it hard to accept you have any concept of how the game mechanics truly work other than you just saying that "I'm right and your wrong you stupid n00b."

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Follow up... to the majority of Aces posts.

To Ace:

I just want to point out, you've been very contradicting about your arguments that PLD isn't broken and your capabilities. You've stated alot of "why bother documenting or show you guys anything you wont believe me," yet many have posted documented evidence that's backed up by a majority of the community contradicting your claims, yet you outright dispute it without proof of your own.

The only thing I could truly agree on with you is IT DOES function as intended, but it's only strength which is defense is severely lacking. The rest of what you say really make's it hard to accept you have any concept of how the game mechanics truly work other than you just saying that "I'm right and your wrong you stupid n00b."

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Oh, but don't forget his epic parser posts where he shows the damage he takes. That's TOTALLY conclusive.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

they prolly woulda left WAR alone if people could learn to NOT bitch about PLD, I was happy whith where everthing was, PLD was great for saftey runs and WAR was great for crowd controll / speed runs. How this adjustment will effect the status quoe is yet to be seen but lets hope all those love drunk WARs out there kept their REAL tanking gear, you know the stuff with DEF/VIT/and HP....

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eh..people have been bitching about Pld since ffxi. Plds will always bitch if they're not made the best tanks evar in the game.

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Originally Posted by Searious

eh..people have been bitching about Pld since ffxi. Plds will always bitch if they're not made the best tanks evar in the game.

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...that's kinda their reason for existence.

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Originally Posted by Searious

eh..people have been bitching about Pld since ffxi. Plds will always bitch if they're not made the best tanks evar in the game.

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Isn't that the point of our existence?

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

that makes no sense, between af and available gear, pld should have no equal in enmity gain.

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Started off as my only job as PLD. Tanked Ifrit people beat it however people did have to hold back on damage. I leveled WAR because they were out tanking PLD so badly on everything. I tanked Ifrit again and nobody even came close to pulling him off and they can go all out. Mainly due to the fact that so much enmity in this game is generated by damage.

I would like to tank on PLD again when they fix it.

WAR nerf, huh? I really want to be upset about that, but it is needed.

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Originally Posted by Amherst

WAR nerf, huh? I really want to be upset about that, but it is needed.

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Not even a nerf really, they're toning down one AoE and upping another and making Berserk more attractive to use. Collusion is useful but not necessary really, so whatever they do to it probably won't affect WAR enough to really make much difference. Course it might be different if Yoshi changes more than he said.

/sarcasm on
PLD can't hold threat? Nerf WAR!
/sarcasm off

All PLD needs is more HP and an AOE WS, granted you won't be doing the same damage as a WAR can but that's the point.. One is a healing tank, the other is a damaging tank.. No need to nerf Steel Cyclone and adjust Collusion.

great, they are over nerf war. great. at least I have blm leveled. they never nerf blm.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

great, they are over nerf war. great. at least I have blm leveled. they never nerf blm.

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lolwut????

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Started off as my only job as PLD. Tanked Ifrit people beat it however people did have to hold back on damage. I leveled WAR because they were out tanking PLD so badly on everything. I tanked Ifrit again and nobody even came close to pulling him off and they can go all out. Mainly due to the fact that so much enmity in this game is generated by damage.

I would like to tank on PLD again when they fix it.

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According to the patch notes, it looks like they fixed the block rate for shields, so they absorb more dmg. (and reduce enmity loss)

looks like you'll get your wish.

Awesome, now I can go back to being a MRD/WAR in town without looking like a total sheep again.
If anything really needs to be nerfed though, it's that people can max level a job in a couple days. That the "flavor of the month", as this game is ending up being, can be leveled just like that is ridiculous. And the fact that anyone has every job at max level shows the whole game is broken :\

So happy for this. Warrior and steel cyclone was begging for a nerf, but whirlwind is very low on damage ;-; Collusion was pretty OP. THIS IS ALL COMING FROM A WARRIOR.

Nice to see additions to Dragoon and Paladin. Happy Miq'ote dance.

PLD doesn't need more damage with its weaponskills (although having to hit an enemy from behind for a combo action while you're tanking it IS pretty stupid), it just needs unparalleled enmity control. As I've said before, you can have as much HP, VIT, and defense (and damage for that matter) as you want, but if the enemy doesn't stay focused on you, then it doesn't matter, and you're not doing your job as a tank.

Right now, whoever does the most damage or cures a lot tends to get the most enmity, and that's not how it should be, in my opinion. The moves like Collusion and Antagonize that WAR has would be nice, but really, PLD needs abilities that FORCE an enemy to attack you, regardless of other players' enmity, and then keep it that way for the duration of the fight. They don't need weaponskills that do more damage, because that's WAR, MNK, and DRG's job. They don't need more healing because that's WHM's job. PLD needs more enmity control - the tank's job.

The only changes I would make to WAR is probably swap their HP with PLD so that PLD has the most survivability once they've got the mob's attention. WAR can keep its Steel Cyclone the way it is for taking out multiple mobs, but with less HP, it'd have to be more careful when doing so, along with it already being slower and less accurate than other DD's. But PLD's enmity generation needs to SERIOUSLY be bumped up... and NOT through damage output. That just leads to power creep, and PLD isn't meant for DD'ing, it's meant for being the best tank, period.

I want to be able to use something like Flash ONCE on Ifrit, and then not get hate pulled off of me while all the other 7 party members are going all out with their spells, weaponskills, and cures. I don't care about how much damage I'm doing; I care about how often my blocks and parries are going off. I care about how much damage I'm mitigating. I care about keeping the enemy FOCUSED ON ME, away from the rest of the party, and holding hate for the entire fight and not losing it once just because a BLM cast Thundara like they were supposed to, or a WAR used Steel Cyclone to hit everything like it was supposed to. Why can't PLD effectively do what it's supposed to do as well?

enmity control is the party's responsability, thus freeze, chamelion, -enmity materia, ect.... as far as hate controll gose, one low lvl teir 4 touch of rage materia now adds 20 enmity... and touch of serinty is -15 enmity.... fail to see how hate controll is still broken? i never lost hate when that materia on my belt only had +8 enmity. the main job of the tank is to keep everyone else alive by NOT DIEING, PLD dose this best. any thm at any time can steal hate from ANY tank if they wanted to. takes co operation to controll hate. I know I know, people working together in a party situation to get somthing done... crazy right?

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

enmity control is the party's responsability, thus freeze, chamelion, -enmity materia, ect.... as far as hate controll gose, one low lvl teir 4 touch of rage materia now adds 20 enmity... and touch of serinty is -15 enmity.... fail to see how hate controll is still broken? i never lost hate when that materia on my belt only had +8 enmity. the main job of the tank is to keep everyone else alive by NOT DIEING, PLD dose this best. any thm at any time can steal hate from ANY tank if they wanted to. takes co operation to controll hate. I know I know, people working together in a party situation to get somthing done... crazy right?

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I totally understand that, but just FYI, I had around +50 enmity on my current PLD gear, including a Cobalt Winglet with materia, Thormoen's Purpose, a Coral Armillae +1, Stonewall Earrings, and a mix of both AF and Sentinel's gear, and I STILL get hate pulled off of me after using all of my enmity-generating moves simply because more damage equates to more enmity. As WAR, I use a lot of the same or similar +enmity gear, yet I rarely have issues, and obviously WAR does more damage than PLD. If making PLD's weaponskills do more damage fixes the problem, then I'm all for it; however, I don't believe that would be a proper way to do it. PLD just needs significantly more enmity than all the other jobs, regardless of damage output, period. They're not meant to DD, they're meant to tank. We have plenty of other jobs capable of churning out high damage. I don't think it's fair to all the other jobs when on PLD I have to say, "Okay guys, stop doing damage because I can't hold hate otherwise," yet when I'm tanking with WAR, everyone can pretty much go all out. Needless to say, something is inherently wrong with this, and it needs to be fixed, otherwise PLD will end up relatively useless again compared to other jobs, like it was in FF11 (at least, from what I've heard compared to Ninja tanks... ridiculous... :rolleyes: ).

As for the boosts to enmity materia, I'm still downloading the 1.22 patch at the moment, but hopefully that will help a bit, although I highly doubt it because WAR and PLD both use +enmity gear, or gear that can have +enmity materia attached to it. I shouldn't have to try and double- or triple-meld +enmity materia to all my gear, or bust my ass hunting for a full set of Heavy Darklight gear JUST so I'll have enough enmity to be able to hold hate compared to everyone else's damage and cures.

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Originally Posted by Tetsaru

PLD doesn't need more damage with its weaponskills (although having to hit an enemy from behind for a combo action while you're tanking it IS pretty stupid), it just needs unparalleled enmity control.

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I agree with this. Increasing Paladin's damage goes against their image. Adding mini-provokes to their weapon skills and increasing their emity from heal/wards appears more appropriate.

Yoshida-San, those GLA back-attacks you mentioned and are bent on improving seems more appropriate for a darker GLA sub-job. If PLD has to resort to such demonic attacks to hold hate, then I believe the PLD is not performing their job appropriatly.

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Originally Posted by Tetsaru

I totally understand that, but just FYI, I had around +50 enmity on my current PLD gear, including a Cobalt Winglet with materia, Thormoen's Purpose, a Coral Armillae +1, Stonewall Earrings, and a mix of both AF and Sentinel's gear, and I STILL get hate pulled off of me after using all of my enmity-generating moves simply because more damage equates to more enmity. As WAR, I use a lot of the same or similar +enmity gear, yet I rarely have issues, and obviously WAR does more damage than PLD. If making PLD's weaponskills do more damage fixes the problem, then I'm all for it; however, I don't believe that would be a proper way to do it. PLD just needs significantly more enmity than all the other jobs, regardless of damage output, period. They're not meant to DD, they're meant to tank. We have plenty of other jobs capable of churning out high damage. I don't think it's fair to all the other jobs when on PLD I have to say, "Okay guys, stop doing damage because I can't hold hate otherwise," yet when I'm tanking with WAR, everyone can pretty much go all out. Needless to say, something is inherently wrong with this, and it needs to be fixed, otherwise PLD will end up relatively useless again compared to other jobs, like it was in FF11 (at least, from what I've heard compared to Ninja tanks... ridiculous... :rolleyes: ).

As for the boosts to enmity materia, I'm still downloading the 1.22 patch at the moment, but hopefully that will help a bit, although I highly doubt it because WAR and PLD both use +enmity gear, or gear that can have +enmity materia attached to it. I shouldn't have to try and double- or triple-meld +enmity materia to all my gear, or bust my ass hunting for a full set of Heavy Darklight gear JUST so I'll have enough enmity to be able to hold hate compared to everyone else's damage and cures.

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/aceofspade mode on
learn2play
/aceofspade mode off

wait, soo a well equiped DD is obviously pulling hate becuase it kicking Iffys ass, your saying you shouldnt have to invest the same amount of effort into your gear as tank to do well? It works like this, If BLM 1 can steal less hate and deal the same amount of dammage as BLM 2 then effectivly BLM 1 is doing more damage because he/she is spending less time cooling off hate or running from the mob they just pulled off the tank, or dead on the ground due to agro. The tank can do all he/she can do, but any DD can pull hate off a tank if they were well equiped and wanted to. saying you shouldnt have to invest into your gear but you want the highest dps as you can possably get is same as saying, " hey guys double and triple stack int, magic attk, enmity down , lighting potency ,ect ect and do as much damage as you can, Im just gona roll with AF gear cuz I shouldnt have to put in the same investment... see what Im getting at? if you make the engine faster better have awsome breaks too.

For what should have been done see my post on page 11. As a caveat they should increase enmity generation on pally in addition to what I suggested in my previous post. Or completely rework the way enmity is calculated.

With regards to the proposed changes on Warrior....

The DD buff MUST be significant enough on warrior to make up for Steel Cyclone. Without Steel cyclone, warrior damage was lol worthy at best when compared to every other DD out there. TP gain was/is very slow on a warrior and the timer on steel cyclone was necessary to keep up with other DD in significant fights. (I'm not talking about spamming it on trash mobs.)

There are two logical outcomes to the forthcoming warrior nerf/buff.

1. DD buff is insignificant. This coupled with the SC nerf leads to Warrior being ostracized if a PLD tank becomes strongly superior to a WAR Tank. Nobody will want it for DD if it cannot keep up with other jobs and will prefer a pally for tanking.

2. DD Buff is significant enough to make it a viable DD. As there is no nerf on HP or Def on a Warrior, it will still have access to most of its hate generating abilities and when carefully coupled with the buff on various DD skills will allow warrior to keep up a steady stream of different weapon skills which in turn means it will be a more efficient tank than a pally due to superior damage generation. Only real difference is that instead of constant steel cyclone spam you will have to rotate in other combos as appropriate.

I really think SE is treading the wrong path here with these fixes. I want PLD to be a great tank as I am close to capping it and enjoy tanking and really want to utilize it in end game set-ups. I also want it to have a strong dual identity as warrior currently does. (See last post)

Nerfing warrior was not the best solution but it was the easiest and as always that's what SE chose.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

wait, soo a well equiped DD is obviously pulling hate becuase it kicking Iffys ass, your saying you shouldnt have to invest the same amount of effort into your gear as tank to do well? It works like this, If BLM 1 can steal less hate and deal the same amount of dammage as BLM 2 then effectivly BLM 1 is doing more damage because he/she is spending less time cooling off hate or running from the mob they just pulled off the tank, or dead on the ground due to agro. The tank can do all he/she can do, but any DD can pull hate off a tank if they were well equiped and wanted to. saying you shouldnt have to invest into your gear but you want the highest dps as you can possably get is same as saying, " hey guys double and triple stack int, magic attk, enmity down , lighting potency ,ect ect and do as much damage as you can, Im just gona roll with AF gear cuz I shouldnt have to put in the same investment... see what Im getting at? if you make the engine faster better have awsome breaks too.

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I never said that. I meant that having +50 enmity compared to everyone else who has LESS enmity stats than I do SHOULD mean that I have better hate control over them in general, right? However, since raw damage output and curing seem to carry more weight over +enmity gear, this is not the case. What I'm saying is, from my experience, apparently DD's wearing mostly AF gear at LV50 compared to my +enmity gear setup prevent me from holding hate when we're BOTH doing our jobs properly. I can have Flash, Provoke, Rampart, etc. constantly on cooldown through constant use, AND use my +enmity combo moves, and still not be able to keep hate over other DD's who are using their own combos/weaponskills.

So, is it MY fault that I can't keep hate, or is it the DDs' fault? And if it's the DDs' fault, then why should they always have to hold back just so that I can properly play PLD, yet they don't have to do so if I'm on WAR - just because WAR does more damage than PLD? Someone please answer that for me. :(

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Originally Posted by Tetsaru

I never said that. I meant that having +50 enmity compared to everyone else who has LESS enmity stats than I do SHOULD mean that I have better hate control over them in general, right? However, since raw damage output and curing seem to carry more weight over +enmity gear, this is not the case. What I'm saying is, from my experience, apparently DD's wearing mostly AF gear at LV50 compared to my +enmity gear setup prevent me from holding hate when we're BOTH doing our jobs properly. I can have Flash, Provoke, Rampart, etc. constantly on cooldown through constant use, AND use my +enmity combo moves, and still not be able to keep hate over other DD's who are using their own combos/weaponskills.

So, is it MY fault that I can't keep hate, or is it the DDs' fault? And if it's the DDs' fault, then why should they always have to hold back just so that I can properly play PLD, yet they don't have to do so if I'm on WAR - just because WAR does more damage than PLD? Someone please answer that for me. :(

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it is SE fault and they are fixing it.

I doubt any of the players on the forums wishes to nurf warrior to the brink of uslessness. Trust me, Ive had my fair share of class mega nurfs in other MMO (like ranger in Ever Quest II where it's damage decreased to that of a templar --> 100% pure healer). The issue isnt Warrior's damage per say, it's warriors capacity to push out massive damage while also tanking really really well. Techically, Warrior is the ultimate damage dealer with respects to their survivability. Sure, BLM can probably dish out higher overall damage, but not without greater risk.

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Originally Posted by Tetsaru

What I'm saying is, from my experience, apparently DD's wearing mostly AF gear at LV50 compared to my +enmity gear setup prevent me from holding hate when we're BOTH doing our jobs properly.

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The case can be made that if a DD is preventing you from holding hate then they aren't doing their job properly

Actually the easiest solution was for SE to not do anything, and force anyone who wants to actually TANK learn how to do so. Nothing is wrong with either job right now... and why people do not see that is beyond me. I tank on both WAR and PLD all the time, pending on what the situation is. In fights where physical damage is 80% or more of the damage delt from the boss and or fights where physical damage done to the boss is extreamly low, even for the DPS players, I go with PLD. In situations where damage taken in easly managed and war can deal moderate to high damage, I tank and WAR. personally I perfer PLD because it can survive much easier then WAR . but when its a LOL fight and its more like farming gear then a boss fight then WAR is better, simply because it makes quick work of the boss. Keep in mind the tank is only as good as its support. WAR with a realy bad dps support would be difficult to keep up on most boss fights. If your party can down a boss quick, WAR adds to that, but if its a long fight for what ever reason, PLD is the obvious choice.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

if its a long fight for what ever reason, PLD is the obvious choice.

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Are there long fights?

Can never complain with more HP, and I'm glad they have finally revised blocking for Boss status enemies!

Hmm, I hope that the revision of Goring Blade, Riot Blade and Rage of Halone will be the positioning of said skill. Since all attacks are generally used from behind, I would assume so.

Time to wait patiently.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

Nerfing warrior was not the best solution but it was the easiest and as always that's what SE chose.

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Actually the "nerf" looks more like they're just decreasing possible damage output while tanking, in favor to increasing their DD output when not-tanking which falls more in line with what Yoshi said about WAR being too strong a DD and Tank at the same time needing the adjustment. WAR will still be out-damaging PLD by a sizable margin for the same reasons it is now, because Riot Blade> Rage of Halone combo is from the backside, so PLD still would suffer from the same complications WAR would have trying to do Whirlwind or Godsblade combos when tanking and not being able to utilize it's better WS damage potential.

Not to mention WAR is easily doing 3x PLD's damage most of the time (if not more) so that's plenty of breathing room between the two jobs.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

The case can be made that if a DD is preventing you from holding hate then they aren't doing their job properly

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True, but then again, I don't see the point in having a job do absolutely nothing just so you can do your own.

If the DD's are pumping out damage constantly, but the PLD can't hold hate, then essentially the DD's ARE doing their job, but the PLD ISN'T doing his job because he can't tank and hold hate. Likewise, if the PLD IS holding hate and tanking, but the DD's are having to hold back in order for the PLD to do so, then the DD's technically aren't doing their job, which is to deal high amounts of damage.

Either way, there is something wrong, and it could easily be fixed in my opinion if PLD could just generate significantly more enmity, and not have it be based purely on damage output or healing like everything else.

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Originally Posted by Tetsaru

I never said that. I meant that having +50 enmity compared to everyone else who has LESS enmity stats than I do SHOULD mean that I have better hate control over them in general, right? However, since raw damage output and curing seem to carry more weight over +enmity gear, this is not the case. What I'm saying is, from my experience, apparently DD's wearing mostly AF gear at LV50 compared to my +enmity gear setup prevent me from holding hate when we're BOTH doing our jobs properly. I can have Flash, Provoke, Rampart, etc. constantly on cooldown through constant use, AND use my +enmity combo moves, and still not be able to keep hate over other DD's who are using their own combos/weaponskills.

So, is it MY fault that I can't keep hate, or is it the DDs' fault? And if it's the DDs' fault, then why should they always have to hold back just so that I can properly play PLD, yet they don't have to do so if I'm on WAR - just because WAR does more damage than PLD? Someone please answer that for me. :(

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I am sorry if I am having a hard time understanding your point of veiw simply because , and if this is a low number plz let me know, with a all blm/thm dd party the avg damage done between all 5 of the blm/thms is roughly 15-20k , I still manage to keep hate well. I think the hardest hitting blm in the group grabs Ifrit early but thats becuase she gets excited and forgets about freeze :P. All that and we get a 7 minute speed run, and I will take roughly 20-22k damage on avg now with devine veil being soo awsome. And I only had +8 enmity. I know hate controll on PLD is ok because it takes my best WAR with DPS gear on over half the fight to steal hate from me. After that he keeps hate ofcourse but that with him trying to steal hate...maybe our play styles are diffrent. not saying your wrong just different.