"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

If my co-worker is doing his job wrong I don't care one bit if we're in front of the entire workplace, I'm going to approach him and offer a suggestion on how to do it better. Obviously you don't ridicule them, you offer help. The two are very different things and it seems to me that you're incapable of differentiating between the two; this makes you part of the problem this community has.

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Then you're socially inept.

This is an ESPECIALLY bad thing to do in front of co-workers; you take them aside and offer help, you don't just blurt out everything they're struggling with to everyone in the office. It's just kind of a dick thing to do in a game, but if you've ever actually done that to someone at their job I wouldn't be surprised if they smacked you, lol.

Edit: This probably came off a bit more confrontational than I intended, but point being it's a bad thing to do.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Then you're socially inept.

This is an ESPECIALLY bad thing to do in front of co-workers; you take them aside and offer help, you don't just blurt out everything they're struggling with to everyone in the office. It's just kind of a dick thing to do in a game, but if you've ever actually done that to someone at their job I wouldn't be surprised if they smacked you, lol.

Edit: This probably came off a bit more confrontational than I intended, but point being it's a bad thing to do.

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The comparison is poor to begin with - you will presumably need to work with coworkers in the future, DF pugs are people they're unlucky to encounter again and thus there is no lasting stigma to them being corrected in front of them.

The point remains, if anyone's ego is that fragile they should probably figure out what's going on with them to make it so.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

The comparison is poor to begin with - you will presumably need to work with coworkers in the future, DF pugs are people they're unlucky to encounter again and thus there is no lasting stigma to them being corrected in front of them.

The point remains, if anyone's ego is that fragile they should probably figure out what's going on with them to make it so.

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Calling someone out in front of a group is never a good idea. Leadership 101 - praise in public, coach in private.
That being said the issue of fragile ego's is obviously a societal issue since we have the need of safe spaces and children who are irreparably harmed by the color of a band-aid.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I think being called out in front of strangers is something that always has a decent chance of being interpreted as a slight, especially if it was unnecessary. So, if the run is going fine the only reason to call someone out is to be a dick.

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"Fine" is a relative term. Just because mobs are dying and the group is progressing, that doesn't mean that everything is necessarily OK. Carrying people through content is an easy thing to do and happens quite often.

Also, trying to help someone is not inherently a 'dick move'. Some people genuinely like to try and help out, and there is nothing wrong with that. Communicating with your group isn't an awful thing to do. I personally don't chime in often unless something is glaringly wrong (e.g. my Qarn & AV runs last week where the DPS and I (as healer) kept tanking mobs), but I'm not expecting everyone else to go about things the same way i do.

I think it helps to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're giving the advice out of a desire to be helpful, and not be an arse. I could be very wrong, but I feel like you believe the opposite to be true.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

The comparison is poor to begin with - you will presumably need to work with coworkers in the future, DF pugs are people they're unlucky to encounter again and thus there is no lasting stigma to them being corrected in front of them.

The point remains, if anyone's ego is that fragile they should probably figure out what's going on with them to make it so.

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This is just something to keep in mind.

When you're giving advice to someone in a public setting it's not just "I'm being so nice and helpful, yay me!" What you're actually doing is singling someone out and announcing their shortcomings in front of a group of strangers. Understand what that means; why it will often be received poorly and why it's something you probably shouldn't do for frivolous reasons.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

I think it helps to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're giving the advice out of a desire to be helpful, and not be an arse. I could be very wrong, but I feel like you believe the opposite to be true.

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I mainly just don't like unnecessary drama in my runs.

Regardless of your intentions, calling someone out in front of other people will always be a contentious thing to do. That's why it's considered common courtesy offer critiques in private; picking someone apart in public has always been considered rude and likely always will be.

I'm not saying there's no context that would justify you speaking up; just don't do it for petty reasons.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is just something to keep in mind.

When you're giving advice to someone in a public setting it's not just "I'm being so nice and helpful, yay me!" What you're actually doing is singling someone out and announcing their shortcomings in front of a group of strangers. Understand what that means; why it will often be received poorly and why it's something you probably shouldn't do for frivolous reasons.

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Odds are the group of strangers is also aware of the issue.

Also nice smokescreen so you never get called out on your willful ignorance. "Just claim advice is calling you out in front of people and you'll get carried through everything easy".

People feeling offended by advice shouldn't be an excuse to never give out advice, the same way there's no point in assuming every underperformer you come across is someone with a disability (like some people here instantly jump to).

Giving advice isn't inherently wrong. In fact, acting out because you were given advice makes you out to be pompous and rude: someone who always needs to be in the right.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Odds are the group of strangers is also aware of the issue.

Also nice smokescreen so you never get called out on your willful ignorance. "Just claim advice is calling you out in front of people and you'll get carried through everything easy".

People feeling offended by advice shouldn't be an excuse to never give out advice, the same way there's no point in assuming every underperformer you come across is someone with a disability (like some people here instantly jump to).

Giving advice isn't inherently wrong. In fact, acting out because you were given advice makes you out to be pompous and rude: someone who always needs to be in the right.

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I feel like I'm always forced to give you the exact same response.

You don't have to run with anyone you don't want to. Vote kick if you feel like you're carrying and it bothers you. Leave if you can't vote kick. In no circumstance are you EVER forced to carry people.

Calling out people in public is rude, no matter how good your intentions are. Sometimes it's justified if the run is a disaster, but there's no reason to be rude if the run is going fine.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

For me personally, since it only happens ever so rarely, I just don't find it worth it to get so upset about it. So it happens every once in a while, very rarely. Is it really worth it to lose your hair over it? Not for me, personally. Just carry through and move on to the next thing. Like I said, I don't pretend that I am this perfect player who always do things smooth every time I play, I am sure my mistakes cause discomfort to others too, so why should I be angry when other makes mistakes too?

And besides, people screwing up mixes things up, making things more exciting rather than business as usual, hahah.

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I don't get upset about it either. There is literally nothing I or anyone can do in that situation to make it better. That doesn't stop it from being annoying though. Ideally, there shouldn't be situations like this at all where we have to grin and bear it, but such is life with the rest of the human race. This thread (and the previous one) are just a good place to give my opinion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I feel like I'm always forced to give you the exact same response.

You don't have to run with anyone you don't want to. Vote kick if you feel like you're carrying and it bothers you. Leave if you can't vote kick. In no circumstance are you EVER forced to carry people.

Calling out people in public is rude, no matter how good your intentions are. Sometimes it's justified if the run is a disaster, but there's no reason to be rude if the run is going fine.

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I'd rather give the person a chance to correct their mistake instead of outright kicking.

Giving advice is only considered rude by self absorbed people, who don't care about anyone else but them, and can't handle having their flaws pointed out (even in private).

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

This is just something to keep in mind.

When you're giving advice to someone in a public setting it's not just "I'm being so nice and helpful, yay me!" What you're actually doing is singling someone out and announcing their shortcomings in front of a group of strangers. Understand what that means; why it will often be received poorly and why it's something you probably shouldn't do for frivolous reasons.

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Welcome to real life, where if you participate in public group activities and you are lagging behind, people may comment and let you know as such. Furthermore, what is the point? If you go message them privately, youre still calling them out, informing them that you (and possibly other team mates) knew they werent up to snuff. Hell, if we're concerned with their feelings, the simple fact that you choose not to talk to them in party and rather afterwards can be construed as thinking theyre simple and fragile. That they couldnt handle being told something in front of others. It's patronizing!

See, if we play this game of "Well your best intentions can be wrong and hurt feelings!", the suitable option is to say absolutely nothing and let the problem persist, and even then it has issues (such as the harsh reality that a player thinks theyre doing well and tries to go into Savage content only to be rudely awakened to the fact that they are definitely not up to snuff).

Just like the last thread, best option is to address issues as you see them. Plain and simple. You only can control what you say and do, you cant control how the other person feels and acts in response. If they think your rude, or become upset, or throw it back in your face, thats on them (so long as youre not being overtly unreasonable or rude - ex: "God you suck so much. Git gud or uninstall you loser!").

Need to stop behaving like we have to tip toe around problems cause "I might hurt other peoples feelings." Just say what needs to be said and stop enabling bad gameplay and behavior. Dont be an ass about it, but be polite and direct. It benefits everyone in the end.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Welcome to real life, where if you participate in public group activities and you are lagging behind, people may comment and let you know as such. Furthermore, what is the point? If you go message them privately, youre still calling them out, informing them that you (and possibly other team mates) knew they werent up to snuff. Hell, if we're concerned with their feelings, the simple fact that you choose not to talk to them in party and rather afterwards can be construed as thinking theyre simple and fragile. That they couldnt handle being told something in front of others. It's patronizing!

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To be completely fair, a more private message (like allowing /tells in instances for example) is probably a bit more ideal than calling someone out in front of a group of people. Calling someone out in party/alliance chat is more than likely going to put someone on the defensive rather quickly. A more personal approach might defuse a situation or keep a situation from occurring at all. If I had the choice between calling someone out in front of others or messaging them privately I would always choose /tells.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

To be completely fair, a more private message (like allowing /tells in instances for example) is probably a bit more ideal than calling someone out in front of a group of people. Calling someone out in party/alliance chat is more than likely going to put someone on the defensive rather quickly. A more personal approach might defuse a situation or keep a situation from occurring at all. If I had the choice between calling someone out in front of others or messaging them privately I would always choose /tells.

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Agreed, It absolutely boggles the mind that SE said they didn't allow whispering in instances because they didn't want people to harass others, when being harassed in whispers is the easiest thing to ignore ever.

Tbh.
I find more toxic casuals than elitism in this game in my time of playing.

It's rare that I find elitism in this game if I'm honest but I do find a**hole casual players in a dungeon or a ex primal.

This stupid thread is still going? GCBTW...

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

To be completely fair, a more private message (like allowing /tells in instances for example) is probably a bit more ideal than calling someone out in front of a group of people. Calling someone out in party/alliance chat is more than likely going to put someone on the defensive rather quickly. A more personal approach might defuse a situation or keep a situation from occurring at all. If I had the choice between calling someone out in front of others or messaging them privately I would always choose /tells.

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The issue is two fold: What we define as "Calling out", and providing a learning opportunity for everyone involved.

The first is pretty straight-forward. Telling someone "Hey, if you do it this way, youll have more success" isnt 'calling someone out'. It's offering up advice to a player who is doing something that is less than efficient. Now if you go into it being like "Man you suck at tanking, you need to be doing x,y, and z", then you can call that what it is. But that goes back to not being a donkey.

The second one is probably whats more important. If youre in a party of sprouts, like legit ones, and you wait for 'afterwards' to say something, you may deny others the opportunity to learn that advice as well all for the sake that you may offend someone. And if youre in a party with one sprout and veterans, then you can more or less guess that if someone is making large enough mistakes, the vets can see it too and know. Youre not sparing anyone at that point.

If the debate is about how you phrase things, thats one thing. But if its about "Welllll, dont say anything cause you may offend someone or you should be extra extra carefully and say it in tells and whispers and what not!" then my initial suggestion is the same:

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Just say what needs to be said and stop enabling bad gameplay and behavior. Dont be an ass about it, but be polite and direct. It benefits everyone in the end.

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

This stupid thread is still going? GCBTW...

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These type of threads pop up from time to time whenever there is not much "new" content to do in the game. Eventually it will die once the new patch is up, or the Mods just take it like the last one.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's like I said, if the run is going fine what's the point in starting crap with someone by calling them out in front of the group? It's just spite at that point, and if the run is going fine I don't see any need to grind it to a halt just so you can get your revenge.

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"Going fine" is subjective and I believe the majority will agree that a run isn't going fine if more resources that necessary are expended due to someone's inept skill.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's one lazy healer you'll probably never see again. His punishment is the fact that everything he runs is going to take 5-10 minutes longer than it has to. If that's not good enough for you then do whatever you need to feel vindicated, but wait until after the run so you're not involving everyone else.

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Excusing that one lazy healer means you're excusing all of them and advocating that they get carried rather than having their party members call them out on mistakes that they refuse to call out themselves.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If the content actually starts getting challenging then it'll make sense to feel like we need to elevate the community. As of right now all of the whining is just petty. The community as a whole is perfectly fine for the current difficulty of 90% of this games content.

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Double standards much? Anyway, the fact that they nerfed content like Thunder God and Mist Dragon shows that the majority of the community isn't suited for content that involves some semblance of teamwork.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

No. Random party members' performances would still not be important enough to me to say anything about it. I would just change how i approach the content, doing it with friends if failures became too common-place (they wouldn't. I rarely have a run of any dungeon content that deviates more than 3-5 minutes in either direction)

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So it is important to you. You would just rather leave silently for a more competent party. Either way, be glad that a decent number of people would rather give free advice than immediately resorting to kicking problem players that'll most likely keep getting kicked otherwise.

Again. No. The performance of other random players is not important to me. They are able to play however they want, and do whatever they want and I completely support that.

I just accept that completing my goals is my responsibility, not theirs.

And no, I take no joy in knowing that people will continue to give out unsolicited advice that is mostly bad, incorrect, or incomplete.

Edit - I find it particularly strange that people defend the "unsolicited" part so vehemently. All anyone ever has to do is ask "would you like some guidance with this?" "want to hear some cool tips for [insert job here]". Or as others have suggested, if there are several players "would anyone like some pointers on..." It's so easy. It's SO easy. If you get a "no", that's the end. Any additional advice is unsolicited and confirmed to be unwelcome. If you get a "yes" then suddenly the advice is solicited and you can go absolutely bananas. When i give advice, it is under these circumstances. Though in general I prefer people to just be quiet and play.

https://me.me/i/dont-say-a-word-to-m...dc3ef9e0825feb

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Originally Posted by Laesha

Again. No. The performance of other random players is not important to me. They are able to play however they want, and do whatever they want and I completely support that.

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You say that pretty casually. I personally dont like almost wiping on Titan Hard, or taking an hour to complete a dungeon cause other players refuse to address pretty easy fixes to gameplay that would drastically improve performance (such as a tank using a CD when pulling 3 or more enemies). Or that the way you complete a mechanic is doing x and y.

No one is suggesting you give a step by step breakdown of raid strats for sastasha. Theyre suggesting when a problem is present to address said problem when you have the experience to do so.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

And no, I take no joy in knowing that people will continue to give out unsolicited advice that is mostly bad, incorrect, or incomplete.

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If you know the feedback is faulty, why not say something? Why just remain quiet? Same with observing an issue.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

Edit - I find it particularly strange that people defend the "unsolicited" part so vehemently. All anyone ever has to do is ask "would you like some guidance with this?" "want to hear some cool tips for [insert job here]". Or as others have suggested, if there are several players "would anyone like some pointers on..." It's so easy. It's SO easy. If you get a "no", that's the end. Any additional advice is unsolicited and confirmed to be unwelcome. If you get a "yes" then suddenly the advice is solicited and you can go absolutely bananas. When i give advice, it is under these circumstances. Though in general I prefer people to just be quiet and play.

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Or We can just cut to the chase and say something instead of tip toeing around something cause "How dare someone tell me something that might help me! Who do they think they are!?"

This kind of mentality of "Be overly polite and courteous" gets in the way of actually getting things resolved. What's so hard or bad about someone telling you something and you saying "Thanks!"? Why is it we have to overly couch something simple in meaningless conversation that opens the door for more misunderstanding?

Instead the suggestion is if you dont say anything at all, that you should tip toe, be vague, and be overly 'polite' cause being polite but direct is somehow a sinful taboo, especially if the time and considerations of others is at stake.

If you are short on time and need to quit the titan HM run. then do so. Your limited time is your problem.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Instead the suggestion is if you dont say anything at all, that you should tip toe, be vague, and be overly 'polite' cause being polite but direct is somehow a sinful taboo, especially if the time and considerations of others is at stake.

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And to me, this is not "overly" polite. This is "basic" politeness. Maybe it was just how i was raised, but for me, manners are very important. One can rail (and has railed) all they want about other people not having good manners by not playing well, but as i've stated over and over, that is not something one can control. I can control how polite I am. While you may value directness and bluntness, I do not. I value method and manner, and it is on that premise that I am more likely to vote to dismiss the unsolicited advisor than anyone playing poorly. I will not thank someone for giving me unsolicited advice, because it is usually wrong. There is nothing for which I should be grateful. I do not bother correcting or discussing, because I am not there to contend with people who want to make themselves feel better by "helping." I think all of that leads to it being a matter of trust as well. I have good reason to assume that advice being doled out is incorrect based on the overwhelming number of instances in which it was, indeed, incorrect. So not only do i associate unsolicited advice with bad manners and being rude, I also associate it with players who are really just talking to hear themselves talk.

Also, "sinful taboo" melodramatic much? It's rude. It's not criminal. Like chewing with your mouth open, not returning your shopping cart, or picking your nose and wiping it on a public bench. I don't think most people hate it or are "offended" by it. I suspect the feelings that arise are more closely mapped to disgust. And if i'm wrong and only speaking for myself, those are certainly my sentiments.

And while we are on the topic of considering other players' time (which in my opinion is very ironic when it comes to this topic), I would rather work my way through a dungeon with a heal-bot (it can literally be a bot), than have some loudmouth start telling a healer to spam holy and have them get annoyed and quit, thus leaving me stuck in a party with an empty healer role that may not fill. Any time they could possibly have saved by taking the unsolicited advice is dwarfed dramatically by the additional time now required by the group to wait for a replacement, or worse, simply start over in a new q. I will always take quiet and smooth.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

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It is neither rude nor incorrect to tell someone they should AoE. Likewise, I shouldn't have to sugarcoat how I say it with "please" and "thank you." Frankly, if you've made it to 50+ and still haven't bothered to read what your abilities do, I find that far more disrespectful because it tells me you either don't care or are lazy. If someone is playing their job of choice wrong, it also isn't rude to correct them or advise they look up a guide. Rotations in this game are essentially binary with some exceptions. You're either doing it correctly or you're not. The point Melichoir and many others are making is that many people do act like any sort of criticism is an indictment on them as a person.

Chewing with your mouth open or not returning a shopping cart aren't comparable because they ultimately impact nobody. Playing a cooperative video game with other people where your performance can change their enjoyment does.

What defines a "loudmouth"? Because telling a healer to Holy large packs once or twice certainly wouldn't in my book. If they left as a result of my telling them to AoE. They're a little bit too sensitive as far as I'm concerned. But you do you, I suppose.

The thing is... no one cares that you guys don't approve of unsolicited advice.

You've convinced no one and changed no one's mind on the topic, at least no one who's spoken up. With the paltry attempts at arguments that you guys are making I can say you're quite unlikely to.

The difference is you can keep playing as you want and we will also do that. That will mean, on the part of the competent players here who care to, that we will continue to give out advice as we see fit. There is absolutely nothing you could do to stop me short of convincing me otherwise, we aren't even on the same DC for you guys to kick me because my main is on Primal.

I would never try to get you to advise anyone on anything in the game. People who don't want to help shouldn't be forced or even encouraged to, it only breeds resentment. That's to say nothing of my opinions on your ability to give good advice (which honestly is questionable given the evidence present) but it's purely based on your desire not to.

So keep being silent, it's fine. You don't need to help. Doesn't change the way I'm approaching these problems.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

The thing is... no one cares that you guys don't approve of unsolicited advice.

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Sure, and no one cares that you have arbitrary standards of what constitutes acceptable play. The difference is, based on all of the bad arguments that you guys make, it seems like you really need the rest of us to care about your standards. If it didn't matter and you didn't need the community to buy into your stance of arbitrarily required levels of play, then there would be no reason for you to constantly beg and plead and argue with the community about what is and is not acceptable. You wouldn't need to work so hard to convince everyone that they need to change their play style to accommodate your wants. That's what your entire argument is based on, that other people need to change. That playing at a higher level is desirable, or even good. But you're right, no one cares about your feelings, and they won't change the way that I approach unsolicited advisors and people who cause trouble when there doesn't have to be.

I'm not here to convince you of anything. I joined the conversation to seek clarity (and some answers were thought provoking and interesting), but also to add my voice of support to those who generally spurn unsolicited advice.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

Sure, and no one cares that you have arbitrary standards of what constitutes acceptable play. The difference is, based on all of the bad arguments that you guys make, it seems like you really need the rest of us to care about your standards. If it didn't matter and you didn't need the community to buy into your stance of arbitrarily required levels of play, then there would be no reason for you to constantly beg and plead and argue with the community about what is and is not acceptable. You wouldn't need to work so hard to convince everyone that they need to change their play style to accommodate your wants. That's what your entire argument is based on, that other people need to change. That playing at a higher level is desirable, or even good. But you're right, no one cares about your feelings, and they won't change the way that I approach unsolicited advisors and people who cause trouble when there doesn't have to be.

I'm not here to convince you of anything. I joined the conversation to seek clarity (and some answers were thought provoking and interesting), but also to add my voice of support to those who generally spurn unsolicited advice.

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Except playing at a higher level is both desirable and good for all parties involved.

Also tiptoeing around issues and pretending they don't exist is how they grow and become more problematic (i.e.: we need very easy mode for solo instances because even though I main WHM, it's too hard to both DPS and move out of AoEs at the same time, as Y'shtola. And yes, there was a thread like this here.)

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Except playing at a higher level is both desirable and good for all parties involved.

Also tiptoeing around issues and pretending they don't exist is how they grow and become more problematic (i.e.: we need very easy mode for solo instances because even though I main WHM, it's too hard to both DPS and move out of AoEs at the same time, as Y'shtola. And yes, there was a thread like this here.)

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I disagree. While I personally enjoy it, if someone does not want to play at higher levels, it is neither desirable or good for them. The moment the game becomes more stressful than enjoyable, I feel they are perfectly within their bounds to stop there. Sufficient is sufficient. If that is what maximizes their enjoyment then that is what they should do. If my goals do not line up with theirs, I simply take responsibility and remove myself because my goals are not their problem. Just like the player in your little meme removes himself to find someone else with whom to play.

And no, this tip-toe argument is silly. Asking a yes or no question before dispensing advice is not "tip-toe'ing". It is basic politeness. You merely ask, and then respond based on the answer. For me it makes all the difference in the world when I see someone who seems as though they may be open to advice. Direct question, direct response, direct advise. No "tip-toe'ing" involved.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

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Its not basic manners to remain silent and let things continue to go poorly. It is apathy at best, and cruelty at worse. Your position paints you into the corner that would rather let players continue poorly than take any initiative, especially if you have experience in that area. And the idea that suggestions are always or mostly poor (which speaks volumes how you really feel about the player base and their potential), then it falls upon you to correct it than to let it slide if you have the knowledge to do so. Refusal to do so, again, is simply being apathetic or cruel.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

Sure, and no one cares that you have arbitrary standards of what constitutes acceptable play.

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Except a lot of people do care. Very few people want to spend the full 90 minutes in a dungeon, and it annoys a great deal of moderately experienced players when they see a healer stand there and do nothing for a few GCDs, or a tank not use a single CD, or a DPS inappropriately AoE.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

The difference is, based on all of the bad arguments that you guys make, it seems like you really need the rest of us to care about your standards. If it didn't matter and you didn't need the community to buy into your stance of arbitrarily required levels of play, then there would be no reason for you to constantly beg and plead and argue with the community about what is and is not acceptable. You wouldn't need to work so hard to convince everyone that they need to change their play style to accommodate your wants. That's what your entire argument is based on, that other people need to change. That playing at a higher level is desirable, or even good. But you're right, no one cares about your feelings, and they won't change the way that I approach unsolicited advisors and people who cause trouble when there doesn't have to be.

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Cause if we didnt speak up, the standard would be press one button and that is acceptable. This isnt an arbitrary standard, this is a "Hey, these things make it easier on everyone." standard. Again, we arent saying you need to have raid strats to do content at the casual level, but that you should have enough understanding and ability to do stuff fairly efficiently. And if we think the error being made is due to a lack of experience or knowledge, us offering up advice is a sign of good will and to help.

We have a standard, an easy one that is achievable by most any player. Your position is to what? Just let players do whatever they want, even if its detrimental to the experience of others? To kick someone who is trying to offer up solutions to a problem and make things progress more smoothly for everyone? To push back against the idea of having some kind of basic standard of what should be expected of players at end game content, savage or not? Sounds pretty good /s.

The most I will ask for is to at least play the Job how it's intended to be played. You don't have to play it at Savage or even Extreme levels, but at least knowing what your buttons do and how they affect your Job is the bare minimum to me. A SAM freestyling and pressing random buttons is just bad play, as it means they're not getting the damage and haste buffs and likely will never get their Triforce Slash Attack. RDM spamming Jolt II, or hardcasting Verthunder/aero. Ice Mages, no DPS healers, single target tanks, no AoE DPS, Bio-blaster being used on single target instead of Drill, etc.

Also sometimes people don't respond because they might be on PS4 and do not have a keyboard connected (or they don't understand your language, but that's for both PS4 and PC). Sure, they could use emotes, but then they have to find the Yes or No emote.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

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Cruelty would be like, giving bad advice that makes them worse because I think i'm smarter than I am. Apathy, perhaps. But that's consistent with everything in my position that no one owes anyone anything. The manners come in with my assumption that they are doing what they are doing purposefully and that they are doing it for a reason (maybe a sad reason in real life that i dont' know. maybe they are distracted. as long as we are finishing the duty it's of little consequence to me) If they seem receptive and friendly, I may ask if they want advice. if they do I share it to the best of my ability and point them toward my sources just in case i'm wrong. The idea that because I gain a quick understand of mechanics, know how to do basic addition with my ability potencys, and enjoy reading the work people put into say the Balance discord, doesn't give me any responsibility to the community at large to somehow elevate other people's standard of play. The responsibility is to elevate my own. The lovely people who write class guides and full rotations and simply post them for people to find don't have a responsibility to do those things. They do it out of kindness, and they do not throw it at anyone in an unsolicited manner. It's in a specific place, for seekers to find.

As far as "a lot of people caring," I will believe it when i see it. I've been with the game since the ARR launch and I almost never see these people who care so much that they are willing to kick players in a roulette for playing badly. (party finder is a different story, and that's it's a discussion all on it's own. I believe that is significantly closer to what people argue constitutes a social contract, but i digress...). I see more people spouting off "advice" and making my run longer and more obnoxious with unnecessary drama and getting kicked. If there were such a large number as you say that cared about this, should it not be the other way around? Should not I be seeing advice constantly? Should not it be a mainstay of leveling roulette? Should not those who spurn it be getting kicked more often than not? I see none of this.

Personally, I think you're giving yourself far too much credit with the whole "if it weren't for us..." thing, but u know... pat yourself on the back. This seems really important to you.

And yeah, my position is that my goals, are my problem and no one else's. If i want something specific, then i take it upon myself to find that thing, whether it be players who share my goals, information about the game, theorycrafting, numbers, measures, etc.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

nonsense

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The thing is you're not changing anything, you're just wasting your time.

For things to continue as I want them to all I need is to maintain the status quo. I can keep helping people suck less and encouraging others to do the same. Meanwhile you've come in here, whined a bunch and just cemented the opinions of the people you disagree with.

Good job? Lol

Right, and you've done exactly the same.

All i have to do is maintain my status quo as well. And the great thing is, i don't even have to do anything to do it, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What status quo? People ignore it all the time when Healers don't DPS in roulettes, or Bards don't use songs, tanks pull small, etc. I see people being "lazy" all the time, and the most common response is silence unless something goes wrong.

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Cheers? *clink*

edit - i wouldn't say I've wasted time. I've enjoyed reading some opinions that have been expressed in the replies to me. That seems like as much as anyone could hope for on a forum. Particularly, Shalan and Melichoir, thank you for your very thoughtful replies.

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For things to continue as I want them to all I need is to maintain the status quo. I can keep helping people suck less and encouraging others to do the same. Meanwhile you've come in here, whined a bunch and just cemented the opinions of the people you disagree with.

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What status quo? People ignore it all the time when Healers don't DPS in roulettes, or Bards don't use songs, tanks pull small, etc. I see people being "lazy" all the time, and the most common response is silence unless something goes wrong.

People who start poking their nose in when it's not needed are definitely the minority, but they're an obnoxious minority that usually just end up starting fights.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

What status quo? People ignore it all the time when Healers don't DPS in roulettes, or Bards don't use songs, tanks pull small, etc. I see people being "lazy" all the time, and the most common response is silence unless something goes wrong.

People who start poking their nose in when it's not needed are definitely the minority, but they're an obnoxious minority that usually just end up starting fights.

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It's so "not needed" that the devs seen necessary to implement a Very Easy mode on solo instances, because that majority even had trouble clearing fights with only 4-5 buttons to press, due to not having someone to carry them...

Solo instances are the proof those people need to improve, because if one day they run out of people to carry them, they'll have to ask devs to make the game even more easier, or quit.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

It's so "not needed" that the devs seen necessary to implement a Very Easy mode on solo instances, because that majority even had trouble clearing fights with only 4-5 buttons to press, due to not having someone to carry them...

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How do you even know that this is the reason why they implement Very Easy mode on solo instances? How do you even confirm that "majority even had trouble clearing fights with only 4-5 buttons to press"? Do you have any data to back this up? Or a link where the developers said this specifically?

Maybe it's just there for convenience sake? And not some tacit acknowledgement that they consider most or majority of their players are foolish simpletons incapable of playing the game with 4-5 buttons to press? I mean really........... I'm sorry, but the way some of you are viewing others playing the same game as you... "woa the *majority* are fools, not me though!*, quite frankly, rubs me the wrong way.

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Originally Posted by Laesha

Right, and you've done exactly the same.

All i have to do is maintain my status quo as well. And the great thing is, i don't even have to do anything to do it, I guess.

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Except it's not the same.

We're not asking anything of you or Goji or anyone who thinks like you guys. Frankly even if you wanted to give advice based on your attitudes towards improvement I'm inclined to think it wouldn't be very good so I'd rather you didn't.

You're the ones who want something from us - you want us to stop calling out bad play.

That's why I find this so funny, because you're here trying to make a case to end unsolicited advice or make people see it in a negative light and like... it's just been so overwhelmingly ineffective. Even in the casual hugbox that is the OF you guys are not only outnumbered in terms of actual repliers but you're also getting less in terms of people liking your posts.

People disagree with you, even here in a space that's so overwhelmingly tilted in your favor, and it's just really amusing.

If anything this has made me feel a bit less negatively towards the forums at least, since a considerable number of people apparently see through the toxic casual mindset. Cheers!

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

I'm sorry, but the way some of you are viewing others playing the same game as you... "woa the *majority* are fools, not me though!*, quite frankly, rubs me the wrong way.

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When I can walk into any random casual content on a job in 480 at best gear and which I have only a rudimentary understanding of and walk out with a parse in the upper 5-10%... yes, I believe this indicates most people playing the game have absolutely no idea what they're doing at all. It shouldn't be possible.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Except it's not the same.

We're not asking anything of you or Goji or anyone who thinks like you guys. Frankly even if you wanted to give advice based on your attitudes towards improvement I'm inclined to think it wouldn't be very good so I'd rather you didn't.

You're the ones who want something from us - you want us to stop calling out bad play.

That's why I find this so funny, because you're here trying to make a case to end unsolicited advice or make people see it in a negative light and like... it's just been so overwhelmingly ineffective. Even in the casual hugbox that is the OF you guys are not only outnumbered in terms of actual repliers but you're also getting less in terms of people liking your posts.

People disagree with you, even here in a space that's so overwhelmingly tilted in your favor, and it's just really amusing.

If anything this has made me feel a bit less negatively towards the forums at least, since a considerable number of people apparently see through the toxic casual mindset. Cheers!

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I don't want you to do anything. Despite your best efforts to make it about you, this isn't about you.

My opinion is that unsolicited advice is rude, period. The fact that you've stuck around here trying to convince people otherwise means you're every bit as invested in "convincing people" as everyone else is.

Now you're just deflecting and leaning on the other people who agree with you; using them to validate your position instead of attempting to make good points yourself. It reads as desperation. Once "People disagree with you!!" becomes your response in a discussion, you lose a lot of credibility. You're basically admitting your argument has no merit; and that you've been forced to resort to fallacies to keep yourself above water in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

When I can walk into any random casual content on a job in 480 at best gear and which I have only a rudimentary understanding of and walk out with a parse in the upper 5-10%... yes, I believe this indicates most people playing the game have absolutely no idea what they're doing at all. It shouldn't be possible.

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I never use parsing tools since I play in PS4, but if you say so. From what I've seen playing the game thus far, I generally think the vast majority of people do know how to play the game competently or at least on passable levels, since in a vast majority of content I'm playing with others people are clearing them just fine. Of course, mishaps were happening sometimes, but people make mistakes. Do you really require other people to always perform "in the upper levels" before you stop considering them simpletons and fools?

I don't know, it seems like a tiring thing to do playing this game while thinking other people are always not up to your standards.

But again, this is just my personal view. If you like to think that way, more power to you, I guess.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

I'm sorry, but the way some of you are viewing others playing the same game as you... "woa the *majority* are fools, not me though!*, quite frankly, rubs me the wrong way.

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I mean, in all honestly? Not necessarily trying to be rude or condescending but an overwhelmingly large amount of this game's playerbase is utterly inept and incompetent. All it takes is to queue up for a couple of roulettes per-day to get enough first hand experience to see that. And it's not like I (or most people, I would imagine) go into duty finder groups expecting people to be on par with savage raid teams in terms of performance. All that most of us expect from others is a basic level of competence; press your glowing 1-2-3 in order and maybe press some of those other non-glowy buttons occasionally. That's really all most of us expect, and in many instances those expectations are met and we have nothing to say. Unfortunately, those already low expectations are shattered on an alarmingly high basis which leads some of us offer advice to those who very clearly need it. Yet, often even when this advice is given in a polite and calm manner we're still met with hostility and other in the group defending & white knighting the other person.

As has been said multiple times now across a plethora of threads, XIV has a very serious problem with toxicity, but it isn't in the form of elitism, it's in the form of casuals. And I'm not talking about your average player who just logs in and does whatever activity strikes their fancy at the time, because many (I would dare even say most) of those types of players at least read their abilities and have a basic understanding of their job and how it functions. No, what I'm talking about is 'casuals' in the sense that this subset of players knows quite well that they're playing poorly, yet not only do they have absolutely no intention of improving, they will actively turn hostile to anyone who attempts to help them do so or points out something in their sub-par performance that could be bettered. This situation is only worsened by the fact that a huge chunk of XIV's playerbase actively defends those with this mindset and will side with them when someone attempts to help them improve as a player.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

I don't want you to do anything.

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I'm happy to know all of my future attempts at advising underperformers have your blessing.

And for the record, yes, being validated in the midst of a group from whom you expected nothing but contrarian responses does feel good. I'm glad to know the entire forums aren't as brainwashed as the few obnoxious blowhards around here might make them seem.

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Originally Posted by LaughingBanana

I never use parsing tools since I play in PS4, but if you say so. From what I've seen playing the game thus far, I generally think the vast majority of people do know how to play the game competently or at least on passable levels, since in a vast majority of content I'm playing with others people are clearing them just fine. Of course, mishaps were happening sometimes, but people make mistakes. Do you really require other people to always perform "in the upper levels" before you stop considering them simpletons and fools?

I don't know, it seems like a tiring thing to do playing this game while thinking other people are always not up to your standards.

But again, this is just my personal view. If you like to think that way, more power to you, I guess.

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I'm aware many of us have already dug in our heels here and so take this response with as many grains of salt as you'd like but... clearing any content that isn't Ultimate/Savage/EX without wiping is literally just meeting the bare minimum expectations set forth by the game.

No one expects to need to "prog" their story dungeons and trials. A particularly spicy fight might take a try or two, sure, but the intention is that you'll clear it without any great investment made by the group. You shouldn't need food and potions.

Just because you're clearing most things doesn't mean people are performing well, or indeed even adequately. I understand you can't see the numbers and I consider this another big fail on the part of SE but if you could... oof. The number of dps being beaten by tanks or even healers alone is enough to very quickly convince anyone with eyes that so many people you encounter have no idea what's going on. You don't even really need any third party software to see this since much if it is uploaded to the internet and viewable by anyone who looks for it.

The proof of inadequacy is already here, the only reason to think people are mostly doing okay is to just not be looking at that proof.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

I'm happy to know all of my future attempts at advising underperformers have your blessing.

And for the record, yes, being validated in the midst of a group from whom you expected nothing but contrarian responses does feel good. I'm glad to know the entire forums aren't as brainwashed as the few obnoxious blowhards around here might make them seem.

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It's amusing to me that you felt like you needed my permission. But yes, go forward and do whatever you want. I'm not responsible for how you behave in video games.

Also, you've spent enough time on these forums to know there are roughly 6-7 people who have the complete same mindset as you, and are in every single discussion like this. You knew they'd be here and you knew they'd agree with every little thing you say. I'm starting to think that's where all of your confidence comes from. You're leaning on them so hard now, I wonder how brave you'd be in a thread like this if they weren't around. ;)

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

It's amusing to me that you felt like you needed my permission. But yes, go forward and do whatever you want. I'm not responsible for how you behave in video games.

Also, you've spent enough time on these forums to know there are roughly 6-7 people who have the complete same mindset as you, and are in every single discussion like this. You knew they'd be here and you knew they'd agree with every little thing you say. I'm starting to think that's where all of your confidence comes from. You're leaning on them so hard now, I wonder how brave you'd be in a thread like this if they weren't around. ;)

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Dude, you realize that the overwhelming majority of players on the forums are very much casual right? The difference is they aren't toxically casual.

But hey, if you ever want to discuss things somewhere else feel free to add me on discord. Maybe we would both be marginally less vapid in another setting and I'm willing to listen to just about anyone talk about this game cause I love it. I require zero backup, I'm holding the same opinions now that I did at the start of this thread specifically because I haven't been convinced otherwise.

swiftcastholy#9999

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Don't be trying to use whatever "support" one side may be getting to either push or detract from an argument. You're both doing the same thing, just in different ways, and it's petty as hell. And lets not go grouping everyone into one tidy collection just because they may agree on some points.

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I don't think agreeing on something makes anyone part of any "collection" apart from the one defined by the mutual agreement.

Of the people who I've agreed with in this thread alone I'm sure we aren't all playing at the same levels or holding all the same opinions, that doesn't mean we all still can't agree that the mindset of advice being harassment is detrimental and nonsensical.

If you think it's petty to come to a community that is advertised as overwhelmingly casual and being pleasantly surprised to find reasonable people who aren't militantly trying to enforce their playstyle then you go right ahead and do you. I remain happy that I've come across some logic here where I expected none.