Ranged DPS role is about to be excluded from all content

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

If yes, but they'd struggle and need to be in the 75th to 80th percentile? - no changes needed.

If no unless they all play 100% perfectly and not even the 80th percentile gets them through a DPS check? - they need a boost.

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So let's make race 4 peoples. Oh and 2 of them are paraplegic. Get rid of their wheelchair, they can get to the finish line by crawling.

Yeah no, if BLM/MNK/DRG/SAM/NIN can do the job by doing the straight minimum but ranged/rdm/smn needs to surpass themselves do reach that bare minimum, it's crap. Especially when a melee can die and still pull as much as a very good ranged.

EDIT: I remember about this E4S parse.
MCH BLM DRG MNK, the 3 lasts were crap, 20th, 13th, 13th.
The MCH was good, 62th with a rDPS around 12.6k. But the funny part is that the other's rDPS were within 300 rDPS of the MCH. MNK with 100 rDPS difference.
Only the MCH in the whole team had a ranking above 45th.

In short, it means that if this team had something else than MNK/DRG/BLM, they would have never cleared E4S.

If we follow your logic we can go wild with balance and jobs could even become a free pass to beat content, like this team where the composition was the pass.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

So let's make race 4 peoples. Oh and 2 of them are paraplegic. Get rid of their wheelchair, they can get to the finish line by crawling.

Yeah no, if BLM/MNK/DRG/SAM/NIN can do the job by doing the straight minimum but ranged/rdm/smn needs to surpass themselves do reach that bare minimum, it's crap. Especially when a melee can die and still pull as much as a very good ranged.

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75% is a good expectation for someone in Savage, right? I think so. Should someone playing 50% go in and expect to win? Savage is for above average players, right? I think 75% is fair.

I guess I'm of the mindset that I don't HAVE to be better or even as good as someone playing another job. I don't care if BLM does triple my damage.

I care that my job - the one that makes me happy when I play it - can do the content I want to do.

That is it.

And not every static out there is going to refuse to take a BRD into content because it pulls low-ish DPS... unless that BRD cannot play his/her job.

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

75% is a good expectation for someone in Savage, right? I think so. Should someone playing 50% go in and expect to win? Savage is for above average players, right? I think 75% is fair.

I guess I'm of the mindset that I don't HAVE to be better or even as good as someone playing another job. I don't care if BLM does triple my damage.

I care that my job - the one that makes me happy when I play it - can do the content I want to do.

That is it.

And not every static out there is going to refuse to take a BRD into content because it pulls low-ish DPS... unless that BRD cannot play his/her job.

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I think you're mistaken here. The ranking is not based on the community as a whole but on the savage players.
Which means a 50th is at average in the savage context.

I invite you to read my Edit above where a BLM only was 300 rDPS lower than a 60th MCH. This BLM had Thunder dot up 50% of the time, lost Enochian multiple times, cast too much fire, avoided its own leyline, clipped a lot...

Remember that if the content is designed for the lowest DPS, then the top DPS can play like crap and clear the content with little difficulties which goes against your 75% expectation. They can play 20% and clear because they have the correct jobs.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I think you're mistaken here. The ranking is not based on the community as a whole but on the savage players.
Which means a 50th is at average in the savage context.

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if you really think about it its even worse, because in the end you are comparing the guys that cleared it, imagine a first week titan group, the worst of the worst of them would run around with a bunch of grey parses even though they were still obviously above average players, else they wouldn't have cleared week 1.

also, it ignores the power of gear, which in part you will only have after you're allready done.

For bard on e3s the difference between a 50% and a 95% percentile is a whooping 1000 dps, not saying thats entirely gear, but just seeing what e3 can give you with the weapon upgrade aswell as left side upgrade for legs at the very least that alone even if it were only 500 dps is the difference between 75% and 50% percentile.

So just by missing 2 items people that have killed the fight several times have a good chance of owning you could actually play like a 75% player but still barely make blue, if that

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

75% is a good expectation for someone in Savage, right? I think so. Should someone playing 50% go in and expect to win? Savage is for above average players, right? I think 75% is fair.

I guess I'm of the mindset that I don't HAVE to be better or even as good as someone playing another job. I don't care if BLM does triple my damage.

I care that my job - the one that makes me happy when I play it - can do the content I want to do.

That is it.

And not every static out there is going to refuse to take a BRD into content because it pulls low-ish DPS... unless that BRD cannot play his/her job.

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75th percentile in Savage means that the players are above average for the playerbase that does Savage content. FFLogs rankings only consider the Savage uploads uploaded to the site when determining this ranking. They aren’t considering other content, or members of the game’s community that don’t participate in Savage.

I have to disagree with the mindset of never improving one’s self. It’s fine if that’s your prerogative, but I could never settle for just being passable at something. I always strive to get better, but that’s me.

All physical ranged can clear Savage. But the role being viable doesn’t mean that the role is balanced. Viability and balance are two separate things. There is a huge issue when a top job like BLM, MNK, or DRG can die, earn an average or below average percentile, and still beat a higher percentile physical ranged by a fair amount. In one of my E3S clears, I got a 94th percentile on DNC one week. The DRG in our group died, got a 60th percentile, and still did 400 more rDPS than me. That’s a problem, in my opinion. The discrepancy between the jobs right now is far too large to be allowed.

I have to echo HyoMin here. I don't mind if there is a 500r DPS difference between two jobs when both are playing perfectly. I find no difference in difficulty when I play Black Mage in Leviathan Savage then I do when I play Bard in Levi Savage (Black Mage feels nearly as mobile as Bard these days), but I can recognize I do have to at least have a better fight knowledge to make it feel so easy on Black Mage. What I do have an issue is with an I put in that same level of effort on both jobs, on Bard I drop an 85% parse, and on Black Mage, the job I'm less familiar on I drop a 40% parse, and my BLM did 1.1K rDPS more then my very well played Bard.

Now I'm someone who plays every job in the game. And although I will always gravitate towards Bard, I don't have issues with just playing something else while I'm displeases with the state of my main. But I try to put myself in the mindset of people who main a job and play it exclusively instead of my own. And simply put the disparity right now is simply far too high when you tell me that players on Dancer, Summoner, Bard, Machinist and Red Mage are having to put in a monster level of effort to just simply be slightly worse then a Black Mage or Monk who are barely able to play the class optimally and make multiple mistakes during the run. It's not fair to those players who put in all that effort to be the best at their favorite jobs and strive to be amazing and then have others blow them out of the water by just being mediocre.

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

75% is a good expectation for someone in Savage, right? I think so. Should someone playing 50% go in and expect to win? Savage is for above average players, right? I think 75% is fair.

I guess I'm of the mindset that I don't HAVE to be better or even as good as someone playing another job. I don't care if BLM does triple my damage.

I care that my job - the one that makes me happy when I play it - can do the content I want to do.

That is it.

And not every static out there is going to refuse to take a BRD into content because it pulls low-ish DPS... unless that BRD cannot play his/her job.

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The rankings are based on only those players who are
1) actively raiding savage
2) being part of a raid that uploaded the logs of their wipes/ kills
But only a small percentage of players actively raid savage (=more than once in a blue moon) and even among them not every raid has someone uploading the logs.

Also, the percentiles don't take into consideration gear..
So a 450ish geared DRG will not be set against equally geared DRGs but rather every DRG who ever had his log uploaded for that particular content.
Which also means that even if you improve your gameplay your ranking can get worse if you can't upgrade your gear as fast as others do. On the other hand, one's logs can suddenly improve without improving gameplay at all, simply by upgrading some major parts of their gear, namely the weapon.

And I have to disagree with the notion that as long as my prefered job can clear content, it's okay.
If one class on the lower end of the rDPS ranking is present in a static, they're going to be fine. But any more than that will usually cause trouble with dps checks which implies that you CAN clear content with that class - as long as you're the only "troublemaker". Meaning you are already restricted and more likely to get excluded than a MNK/ BLM/ DRG.
If there's already one or, god forbid, even two jobs with significantly lower rDPS present in a raid, how high do you think your chances are of getting in with another job that isn't considered a hard-hitter?

Our newly formed static is currently sporting a BRD, RDM and DNC with a DRG being our only hard-hitter. We didn't have much choice during recruitment and were simply glad that we are able to run at all from now on. But it will most likely cause trouble later on. And while I know that all of us have some serious work to do regarding gameplay and are still re-learning fights in a different comp, often with new positions etc, we could easily have 3k+ rDPS more just by playing a different job but keeping the level of gameplay as it is and that's not even going full hard-hitter. We're missing out on several thousand rDPS which can make or break a dps check. And when we make it with our comp we will have to bring much better gameplay than if we'd run with only one job on the lowest end of the rDPS ranking and likely have to rely on upgrading gear while a more hard-hitting comp would forgive small mistakes and worse gear.
The average BLM is only 300 rDPS behind the best RDM on Voidwalker. Play slightly above average and you will eat every RDM ever for breakfast.

There will always be a rDPS ranking, perfect balance won't exist with this many jobs ingame.
But right now the "meta is stupid, just have fun with whatever job you want!" notion doesn't work out in reality because the difference between upper half and lower half is too signifcant to dismiss.
The lower half of DNC/ RDM/ BRD/ SMN/ MCH has to fight much harder for a spot in a static or PUG because they are, by nature, at a serious disadvantage.

BRD: The forsaken class...

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

SE does not intend to have ONLY those jobs in content. I understand that.

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Says who? The game should be balanced so that you can do content with any party composition equally. Devs should not be putting their fingers on the scale making it so that certain classes must be brought or so that you have to work harder and perform better to get the same performance out of certain classes simply because they aren't the chosen ones.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Says who? The game should be balanced so that you can do content with any party composition equally. Devs should not be putting their fingers on the scale making it so that certain classes must be brought or so that you have to work harder and perform better to get the same performance out of certain classes simply because they aren't the chosen ones.

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^this.

All classes and compositions should be able to clear all content, yes some will be able to do it quicker/easier than others but it should all be doable.

It's why I've always hated the idea of hard one shot enrage mechanics, it's basically "Congratulations you beat the mechanics but the timer says nah"

Soft enrage is always better compared to hard enrage as it at least gives those that get close opportunity to potentially finish up instead of "LUL DENIED".

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

^this.

All classes and compositions should be able to clear all content, yes some will be able to do it quicker/easier than others but it should all be doable.

It's why I've always hated the idea of hard one shot enrage mechanics, it's basically "Congratulations you beat the mechanics but the timer says nah"

Soft enrage is always better compared to hard enrage as it at least gives those that get close opportunity to potentially finish up instead of "LUL DENIED".

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So the team can die again and again and as long as they keep up they can clear? Or better, go with 4 healers and 4 tanks.
It's safer and you some mechanics won't one-shot you and if you need to res, you have 4 healers!
Enrage is here to punish multiple deaths, prevent cheesy comps and avoid cheesing challenges.

It's been done in 24 man raid, the challenge was mostly the length due to the lack of DPS from the team.
If you remove enrage, you also get rid of the challenge, remove the purpose of DPS jobs and allows anyone to cheese through the content.

But that's not the subject.

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

Here's how I've always looked at this:

Theoretically, if you put the bottom 5 in a group in front of EX or Savage content - ONLY the bottom 5 - could they clear it if they played at the high end of the median percentile for their jobs and followed mechanics?

If yes, but they'd struggle and need to be in the 75th to 80th percentile? - no changes needed.

If no unless they all play 100% perfectly and not even the 80th percentile gets them through a DPS check? - they need a boost.

SE does not intend to have ONLY those jobs in content. I understand that. However, the way I see it, if you wanted to make a premade with JUST the bottom 5 DPS jobs but you cannot because the content would legit be impossible, then something is broken. Done this way, other jobs' DPS doesn't even matter. It's a test as to whether these 5 jobs have enough oomph.

In other words, top DPS isn't everything to me, but I need to be able to clear content.

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Except it does matter because any of the big three allow for more mistakes and potential mechanic skips, which in turn make things easier on the Healers and Tanks. Lets look at Voidwalker. The hardest part of that entire fight is Quietus. While you can kill him before he begins that phase with any composition, it's decidedly easier if you ran MNK/DRG/BLM/BLM or MNK/DRG/BLM and either SAM or NIN. Not only that because the BLM could straight up die or three people could get damage downs and you're still beating a World First caliber BRD. How would you classify this as anything but broken when half the jobs have a massive advantage over the others?

It's even worse for RDM and SMN who have zero purpose of existing outside prog. Once you know the fight, they're effectively useless since their only benefit is Raise; and unlike the Range, they don't have the gear excuse to fall back on.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Except it does matter because any of the big three allow for more mistakes and potential mechanic skips, which in turn make things easier on the Healers and Tanks. Lets look at Voidwalker. The hardest part of that entire fight is Quietus. While you can kill him before he begins that phase with any composition, it's decidedly easier if you ran MNK/DRG/BLM/BLM or MNK/DRG/BLM and either SAM or NIN. Not only that because the BLM could straight up die or three people could get damage downs and you're still beating a World First caliber BRD. How would you classify this as anything but broken when half the jobs have a massive advantage over the others?

It's even worse for RDM and SMN who have zero purpose of existing outside prog. Once you know the fight, they're effectively useless since their only benefit is Raise; and unlike the Range, they don't have the gear excuse to fall back on.

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I'd like to bounce on this.
Remember Zurvan? Remember "skip Soar"?
What if an EX trial like this would happen and the balance is similar to what we currently have?

Simple, the lower jobs would be locked out.
Locked out jobs in content that must be farmed.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

So the team can die again and again and as long as they keep up they can clear? Or better, go with 4 healers and 4 tanks.
It's safer and you some mechanics won't one-shot you and if you need to res, you have 4 healers!
Enrage is here to punish multiple deaths, prevent cheesy comps and avoid cheesing challenges.

It's been done in 24 man raid, the challenge was mostly the length due to the lack of DPS from the team.
If you remove enrage, you also get rid of the challenge, remove the purpose of DPS jobs and allows anyone to cheese through the content.

But that's not the subject.

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Soft enrage: Boss builds up to a point they overwhelm you, hitting harder and faster with each passing second, slower teams can potentially get through the last percent or two before it's too much.

Hard enrage: Boss insta-kills as soon as they hit a certain time limit, no way to mitigate/counter or try to play through it.

That's the difference, so no, a soft enrage doesn't mean you could do 4 healers 4 tanks as you would still wipe as the percentage would be way too high for you to finish it off before being overwhelmed.

There should be an enrage mechanic, I'm just stating why I've never been a fan of hard enrage as it's always been a poorly conceived mechanic which forces the very thing we see, exclusion and elitism. It's difficult to blame players for the exclusionary mindset when Savage has such a strict enrage timer that taking anything less than META is seen as a handicap.

Hopefully it's a lesson for the Devs and they think about using more soft enrages than hard "Times up, start again" hard enrages.

Edit: In fact there are all sorts of clever ways they can implement soft enrages, such as removing your mana regeneration and greying out your ethers/mana regen skills, boss resistances growing to the point they become invuln, stacking, unremovable healing debuffs to the point you can no longer be healed and so on.

Anything less than meta would be seen as the same "handicap," hard enrage or no.

I'm BRD main. I don't have any trouble with anything and nobody's ever called me out on my mad deeps (giggle), but then again, I'm still doing HW content.

In all seriousness, if I spend months learning this job and this game and then get excluded from content for no other reason than simply being BRD? Yeah. I'm not gonna be pleased with this game at all.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Anything less than meta would be seen as the same "handicap," hard enrage or no.

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Only by the DPS Parse crowd and we all know what the Dev team thinks of people like that. For everyone else, viability would be based on role need as opposed to "WE NEED 4 BLM or 3 + SAM because Phat Deeps" The roles intended to have additional functions would actually be used more because their intended additional functions would be valued not ignored.

That's the true issue at heart, Eden Savage is a DPS race, DPS races encourage taking only the best DPS classes, so no RDM to make your Healers life easier, no DNC to provide group wide buffs and a bit of filler healing, heck I've even seen people talking about Excluding DRKs despite them having the best damn anti-tankbuster in the whole game in TBN because "They don't do as much DPS"

The Phat Deeps mindset needs to die, it's unhealthy.

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

I'm BRD main. I don't have any trouble with anything and nobody's ever called me out on my mad deeps (giggle), but then again, I'm still doing HW content.

In all seriousness, if I spend months learning this job and this game and then get excluded from content for no other reason than simply being BRD? Yeah. I'm not gonna be pleased with this game at all.

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So here's the thing about meta and endgame parties. Right now, everyone who plays anything besides a Melee job or Black Mage is actively holding back the party's DPS just because the gap between Melee+BLM and everyone else is so high. Does that mean you're going to be excluded from content? In some circumstances, from some parties, yes, but generally, no. I'll explain.

I play RDM. My job is going to be excluded before yours, and it's true that I've seen several PFs with my job locked out, but it's not something you see frequently. Bard, despite its relative weakness, has two advantages: First, it still receives some residual love from players who remember how Bard was a meta job for so damn long, that alone makes it unlikely to be locked out. Second, Bard has the advantage of being a physical ranged job which is actually pretty well-balanced within the role even as the role as a whole is very very weak compared to melee+BLM. 99.999% of parties are going to want one ranged physical job regardless because people who play those jobs are often used to perform mechanics that would be particularly annoying for melee or casters, and since Bard competes nicely against both MCH and DNC, there is no reason not to bring one. .001% of parties at best will want to bring a 2 melee + 2 BLM composition but frankly those parties are going to be statics, not pug groups you find in party finder.

I wouldn't worry about it, especially since ranged physical is likely to get a buff in 5.1

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Soft enrage: Boss builds up to a point they overwhelm you, hitting harder and faster with each passing second, slower teams can potentially get through the last percent or two before it's too much.

Hard enrage: Boss insta-kills as soon as they hit a certain time limit, no way to mitigate/counter or try to play through it.

That's the difference, so no, a soft enrage doesn't mean you could do 4 healers 4 tanks as you would still wipe as the percentage would be way too high for you to finish it off before being overwhelmed.

There should be an enrage mechanic, I'm just stating why I've never been a fan of hard enrage as it's always been a poorly conceived mechanic which forces the very thing we see, exclusion and elitism. It's difficult to blame players for the exclusionary mindset when Savage has such a strict enrage timer that taking anything less than META is seen as a handicap.

Hopefully it's a lesson for the Devs and they think about using more soft enrages than hard "Times up, start again" hard enrages.

Edit: In fact there are all sorts of clever ways they can implement soft enrages, such as removing your mana regeneration and greying out your ethers/mana regen skills, boss resistances growing to the point they become invuln, stacking, unremovable healing debuffs to the point you can no longer be healed and so on.

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I see no difference whatsoever as you can set the endpoint of soft enrage at the same time as hard enrage and both will instakill you at this point.
If anything, hard enrage is easier to deal with than soft

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

75% is a good expectation for someone in Savage, right? I think so. Should someone playing 50% go in and expect to win? Savage is for above average players, right? I think 75% is fair.

I guess I'm of the mindset that I don't HAVE to be better or even as good as someone playing another job. I don't care if BLM does triple my damage.

I care that my job - the one that makes me happy when I play it - can do the content I want to do.

That is it.

And not every static out there is going to refuse to take a BRD into content because it pulls low-ish DPS... unless that BRD cannot play his/her job.

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I mean that's fine, but I don't think it's unreasonable to want high skill to mean high contribution.

It's just dumb that you only need a 60th percentile monk to match the damage contribution of a 95th percentile machinist.

Especially since 95th usually means playing extremely well, almost perfectly, and in a BiS set or close to it, and 60th percentile is basically sloppy play but still above average with good gear.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I'd like to bounce on this.
Remember Zurvan? Remember "skip Soar"?
What if an EX trial like this would happen and the balance is similar to what we currently have?

Simple, the lower jobs would be locked out.
Locked out jobs in content that must be farmed.

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I hadn't thought of Zurvan, however that's a good example. In fact, it wasn't uncommon to see Warrior locked out because Holmgang required very precise timing to cheese Demon's Claw. And this was back when Warrior was the God tier tank of legend. If it was getting locked out, Dancer, Red Mage, Bard and co wouldn't have a chance in hell.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Soft enrages

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A soft enrage wouldn't change this mentality though. In fact, it would only encourage it since you'd want the highest damaging jobs to better secure those DPS checks lest you risk the boss getting buffed. What makes you think people would suddenly want a Red Mage to "help out the healers" with a soft enrage mechanic? Not only would that lower your overall damage output, thus risking not making the check but it'd have the same impact now: a crappy parse for the Red Mage. Another issue is these soft enrage checks would need to be balanced around the weakest potential comp. Which means a DRG/MNK/BLM/BLM comp would be even more invaluable.

Basically, your suggestion does precisely the opposite of what you're intending.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Especially since 95th usually means playing extremely well, almost perfectly, and in a BiS set or close to it, and 60th percentile is basically sloppy play but still above average with good gear.

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I should not be able to straight up die and still out-DPS the Dancer in my static who parsed orange. And yet... I have simply because I play Dragoon.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

I wouldn't worry about it, especially since ranged physical is likely to get a buff in 5.1

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This was going to be my next question. Is BLM going to be nerfed or is everyone else going to get buffed?

And do the devs not have PTR or anything for their patches/expansions? You'd think something being THAT overtuned wouldn't have slipped past the PTR/beta testers.

I'm not new to Final Fantasy, but I am new to the 14 world and the people behind it. It's fascinating. Love the Live Letters and such! I'm still getting a feel for how things work, but coming from WoW (and I was a mythic raider in WoD before I threw in my Loktar Ogar), I know the feels when you're excluded.

I just really hoped such things wouldn't happen here. But I appreciate your explanation and it does help! Thanks again!

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

This was going to be my next question. Is BLM going to be nerfed or is everyone else going to get buffed?

And do the devs not have PTR or anything for their patches/expansions? You'd think something being THAT overtuned wouldn't have slipped past the PTR/beta testers.

I'm not new to Final Fantasy, but I am new to the 14 world and the people behind it. It's fascinating. Love the Live Letters and such! I'm still getting a feel for how things work, but coming from WoW (and I was a mythic raider in WoD before I threw in my Loktar Ogar), I know the feels when you're excluded.

I just really hoped such things wouldn't happen here. But I appreciate your explanation and it does help! Thanks again!

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They already announced the Range will get "a slight buff" in 5.1. Whether that will be enough remains to be seen.

And unfortunately, no, they don't have a PTR. Which is one reason job balancing can be all over the place sometimes. A bigger problem is they have a tendency to balance around the casual minded players and not the raid scene. Perhaps the best example is back in Stormblood when Yoshida outright said they didn't balance Bard and Machinist with Dragoon in mind despite Dragoon providing two buffs (Piercing and Litany) that made Bard hilariously strong.

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

This was going to be my next question. Is BLM going to be nerfed or is everyone else going to get buffed?

And do the devs not have PTR or anything for their patches/expansions? You'd think something being THAT overtuned wouldn't have slipped past the PTR/beta testers.

I'm not new to Final Fantasy, but I am new to the 14 world and the people behind it. It's fascinating. Love the Live Letters and such! I'm still getting a feel for how things work, but coming from WoW (and I was a mythic raider in WoD before I threw in my Loktar Ogar), I know the feels when you're excluded.

I just really hoped such things wouldn't happen here. But I appreciate your explanation and it does help! Thanks again!

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It’s unlikely that BLM will get nerfed. The developers have a general aversion to nerfing things, even when they should—this has been well-established throughout the history of the game.

As for PTR, no. We don’t have anything like that despite repeatedly asking for it to avoid problems much like this one.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s unlikely that BLM will get nerfed. The developers have a general aversion to nerfing things, even when they should—this has been well-established throughout the history of the game.

As for PTR, no. We don’t have anything like that despite repeatedly asking for it to avoid problems much like this one.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

They already announced the Range will get "a slight buff" in 5.1. Whether that will be enough remains to be seen.

And unfortunately, no, they don't have a PTR. Which is one reason job balancing can be all over the place sometimes. A bigger problem is they have a tendency to balance around the casual minded players and not the raid scene. Perhaps the best example is back in Stormblood when Yoshida outright said they didn't balance Bard and Machinist with Dragoon in mind despite Dragoon providing two buffs (Piercing and Litany) that made Bard hilariously strong.

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I... I am at a loss for words. How does a game like this one not have a PTR?! In their defense, it's a damn good game considering.

Well, I have a ways to go before I'll be ready for any high-end raiding, so fingers crossed that BRD will be half as desirable as BLM.

As far as casual vs. raider... that issue exists everywhere and probably won't ever go away. Casuals make up the majority in most MMOs, so that's *usually* who the devs tend to favor most. Balance would benefit everyone, though. That's a fact.

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

As far as casual vs. raider... that issue exists everywhere and probably won't ever go away. Casuals make up the majority in most MMOs, so that's *usually* who the devs tend to favor most. Balance would benefit everyone, though. That's a fact.

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Balance would favor all, yes—but it would have to still be done around the high-end. High-end is honestly the only place in this game where balance matters, as other content is simply designed and tuned far too low by comparison. Balancing around dungeons would negatively affect raid settings, where things are done far differently. But balancing around raids will allow said balance to trickle down into the more casual content. One has to think about trickling down—trickling up doesn’t work. As ForteNightshade mentioned, SB BRD was an excellent example of what happens when raid balance is ignored.

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

I... I am at a loss for words. How does a game like this one not have a PTR?!

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PTR wouldn't help, PTR aren't used to balance but to test functionnalities and make sure they work correctly as well as collecting feedback.

If SE had a PTR it would probably be located in Japan which would be unplayable. If the PTR also include the story/savage raiding, that would spoil it or give spoilers to trolls.
I'd also point out that back in... May? There was the Media tour where big bois streamer could try the job a good month before anyone else. Everyone pointed with their finger that the Dancer would be broken as hell. Saber Dance was 30% critical and Direct it, which is now 20%.

Dancer is now extremely underwhelming and would probably have been average keeping the old values.
There was also feedback about the MCH Hypercharge and the Queen very slow to boot up. Hypercharge remained the same and is a major problem.

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Originally Posted by WalxAtNite

This was going to be my next question. Is BLM going to be nerfed or is everyone else going to get buffed?
You'd think something being THAT overtuned wouldn't have slipped past the PTR/beta testers.

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FFXIV's producer/director plays black mage so no the job is not going to be nerfed because it's the chosen one. With that said, based on what I've seen I think the other jobs were more undertuned rather than blm being overtuned (except monk, monk needs a nerf)

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

FFXIV's producer/director plays black mage so no the job is not going to be nerfed because it's the chosen one. With that said, based on what I've seen I think the other jobs were more undertuned rather than blm being overtuned (except monk, monk needs a nerf)

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That's so wrong considering BLM was underwhelming in stormblood and was outshined by basically everyone

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Originally Posted by Endariel

That's so wrong considering BLM was underwhelming in stormblood and was outshined by basically everyone

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It actually wormed it’s way into speedkills in Alphascape, where it was finally doing respectful damage for a selfish DPS job. Unfortunately, it still had a stigma attached to it; so people often chose SMN over BLM. But if you want to see BLM outshined, look at Creator: MCH was doing more damage than it, and BRD was right up there with MCH.

Personally I have always hated the you must play with this effiencey rate or have x % of dps since I played wow. Play as you like and feel comfortable. I play whm rdm and dnc primarily and I have yet to search out what is 'meta' for any of then I play what feels right. So many players focus so much on what does the 'best' and 'fastest' that they rob others the chance of fning enjoying the content. Stop the massive pulls that are nothing but a stress for the healer cause you know whose gonna be blamed for the wipe 9 times outta 10 it aient the tank. Dont push the mentality of if you haven't reached endgame in a week your shit. Let people enjoy the damn game the way they want to!

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Originally Posted by AinaRosewood

Personally I have always hated the you must play with this effiencey rate or have x % of dps since I played wow. Play as you like and feel comfortable. I play whm rdm and dnc primarily and I have yet to search out what is 'meta' for any of then I play what feels right. So many players focus so much on what does the 'best' and 'fastest' that they rob others the chance of fning enjoying the content. Stop the massive pulls that are nothing but a stress for the healer cause you know whose gonna be blamed for the wipe 9 times outta 10 it aient the tank. Dont push the mentality of if you haven't reached endgame in a week your shit. Let people enjoy the damn game the way they want to!

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i get the sentiment, and yes, in an ideal world we could all be happy, but "Let people enjoy the damn game the way they want to!", what does that mean to you ? because i know most raiding folk mean "let the boss die and hand me the shinies" , that IS "playing the damn game the way they want to!". Problem is if some classes are making this objectively harder than others letting "you" play the way you want runs exactly Counter to playing the game the way "they" want.

People need to realize that while yes, no one has any right to "force" someone to play something different, or "git gud", but neither is there any given right to be taken into a group just because you want to, and thats where the problems arise. Saying "let me play whatever i want, however i want, its my decision how i want to have fun" is totally fine, but Complaining about others taking that answer as reasons to exclude People is doing exactly the same, you deny these people their right to decide for themselves if they want to have an easier time, a faster run, or even some Personal challenge, taking your mass pull example here, Blaming the healer when it goes south completly aside, as a tank mass pulls means i've got reason to use cooldowns and move out of shit, pulling in groups of 2 mobs would basically mean do 3 skills to keep enmity and go afk till group is dead.

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Originally Posted by AinaRosewood

Personally I have always hated the you must play with this effiencey rate or have x % of dps since I played wow. Play as you like and feel comfortable. I play whm rdm and dnc primarily and I have yet to search out what is 'meta' for any of then I play what feels right. So many players focus so much on what does the 'best' and 'fastest' that they rob others the chance of fning enjoying the content. Stop the massive pulls that are nothing but a stress for the healer cause you know whose gonna be blamed for the wipe 9 times outta 10 it aient the tank. Dont push the mentality of if you haven't reached endgame in a week your shit. Let people enjoy the damn game the way they want to!

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And what if your idea of enjoying the game the way you want too directly clashes with others? Cause when I go into a dungeon, no matter if I'm a healer, tank, or dps, I want to pull big and push it all to the max, because that is the only way I really can enjoy the content, any other speed is absolutely mind numbingly boring. The mentality goes both ways. While sometimes the upper tier player needs to slow down for the lower tier, some times a lower tier player needs to push themselves a bit harder and meet the upper tier halfway.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

And what if your idea of enjoying the game the way you want too directly clashes with others? Cause when I go into a dungeon, no matter if I'm a healer, tank, or dps, I want to pull big and push it all to the max, because that is the only way I really can enjoy the content, any other speed is absolutely mind numbingly boring. The mentality goes both ways. While sometimes the upper tier player needs to slow down for the lower tier, some times a lower tier player needs to push themselves a bit harder and meet the upper tier halfway.

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If “push themselves harder” means the lower tier needs to power level a class they have no desire to play because the upper tier will complain/refuse the classes they do play; I don’t think the lower tier is at fault here.

I mean I know this is about ranged but I play/“main” SAM right now. From what I see on the forums, I’d better go grind BLM or MNK cause no one is going to take me in raids otherwise. But those are classes I have no interest in so why raid?

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Originally Posted by Endariel

That's so wrong considering BLM was underwhelming in stormblood and was outshined by basically everyone

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Not really. BLM dominated the rankings by Alphascape and in sigma/delta they held their own just fine. BLM wasn't weak, it simply wasn't desired because it didn't bring raid buffs and FFLogs motivated people to want jobs that brought raid buffs. Coincidentally, Shadowbringers was designed in such a way that that weakness (lack of raid buffs) is in fact no longer a problem at all because their personal DPS is so powerful that it completely blows away any and all raid buffs support jobs can provide. It's almost as if they completely destroyed support jobs just to make sure BLM could be the most desired job or something..hmm..

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

If “push themselves harder” means the lower tier needs to power level a class they have no desire to play because the upper tier will complain/refuse the classes they do play; I don’t think the lower tier is at fault here.

I mean I know this is about ranged but I play/“main” SAM right now. From what I see on the forums, I’d better go grind BLM or MNK cause no one is going to take me in raids otherwise. But those are classes I have no interest in so why raid?

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That's getting into a totally separate mindset. I was responding to a poster stating to "stop the massive pulls that are nothing but a stress for the healer", and let people just enjoy it at their own pace. I take a massive issue with this frame of mind because most players who say this don't realize that this goes both ways. The other 3 people in the run are just as entitled to their fun as you are to yours, and it's the role of all players involved to find a happy medium. If that means a healer who may not like big pulls but at least has the ability to do them, sucking it up and letting the tank pull a few extra mobs. If that means a tank likes to pull wall to wall but the rest of the party isn't comfortable to it, maybe only pull one or two mobs max.

What you're talking about is totally different. If you came into my static for prog, I would not turn down a Samurai that knew their stuff, because I know at my level as long as anyone can drop 80% parse on their job and can grasp mechanics quickly, we will probably clear all 4 fights in savage within the first two weeks. Now... would I take you into my speed run party, or if my group was capable of it a world first race? No probably not, but that is literally the highest of high echelon's, and in that party I would expect anyone in my party (including myself) to drop their favorite role in favor of whatever will contribute to the fastest run possible, because that is a mindset that you have to have if you want to do competitive speed runs.

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Originally Posted by AinaRosewood

I play whm rdm and dnc primarily and I have yet to search out what is 'meta' for any of then I play what feels right. So many players focus so much on what does the 'best' and 'fastest' that they rob others the chance of fning enjoying the content.

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Voidwalker says "Do 73k DPS or it's a wipe." Expectations aren't set by players but by the content. The content doesn't care if you enjoy that or not.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Coincidentally, Shadowbringers was designed in such a way that that weakness (lack of raid buffs) is in fact no longer a problem at all because their personal DPS is so powerful that it completely blows away any and all raid buffs support jobs can provide. It's almost as if they completely destroyed support jobs just to make sure BLM could be the most desired job or something..hmm..

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If you want range dps to do exact same dmg as the blm or melee dps then your job has to get same casting times or positionals.
In sb we had a thread where people complained for melee dps being in deep S, since they were more diffuclt to play and not performing considerably better. SE changed that in shb and its in a good spot right now.
There are some changes coming but i doubt these will make range dps doing the same amount of dps as melee. Deal with it, its not going to happen, and why should it if your job is a lot less vulneruable to the mistakes, get real.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

If you want range dps to do exact same dmg as the blm or melee dps then your job has to get same casting times or positionals.
In sb we had a thread where people complained for melee dps being in deep S, since they were more diffuclt to play and not performing considerably better. SE changed that in shb and its in a good spot right now.
There are some changes coming but i doubt these will make range dps doing the same amount of dps as melee. Deal with it, its not going to happen, and why should it if your job is a lot less vulneruable to the mistakes, get real.

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Are we talking about the positionals which monk can ignore half of the time? Or any other mdps uses for 2 gcds?

Or magic DPS who have options for movements.

It's not like any fight requires you to move 24/7.