Pulling the bosses In dungeons as DPS a thing now?

Personally I queue as a Tank to tank mobs' attacks... not my party's :/

I'm going to have to take OPs side here. Doesn't matter how enmity generation has been changed. The ytank pulls. That's how its always been. If someone else pulls, I'll let them tank if they want. Berating your tank for not putting up with your nonsense and kicking them for desiring some level of consistent etiquette is nonsensical. The dragoon in this situation was in the wrong, and I believe that OP had every right to refuse to pull aggro off of someone who continues to pull mobs/bosses. The fact that everyone seems to be thinking that the DPS and their cooldowns are far more important makes me concerned if I should even bother to keep tanking myself. Just because its a new expansion, doesn't mean we can suddenly drop all of the unspoken rules from Stormblood and before.

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Originally Posted by ThunderGodThor

Try relaxing when you're not slowing down 3 other players- just a thought.

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Bold post for someone with blue parses in eden and green parses in trials. Try to not slow down the other 7 people in more serious content then you can tell me to rush my dungeon, ok? Ok.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

Bold post for someone with blue parses in eden and green parses in trials. Try to not slow down the other 7 people in more serious content then you can tell me to rush my dungeon, ok? Ok.

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Eden normal is serious.

Ehehehehe.

If the healer and I talk it, I don't mind if more groups are pulled as long as my hp bar is maintained at a good condition. But if a player wants to rush ahead when the other 3 are telling him to slow down and let the tank do his job or nothing has been talked about, he deserves to be eviscerated by every mob of the dungeon.

A 4 man group in dungeons is a team, not a contest of who has more ego to show off.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Eden normal is serious.

Ehehehehe.

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I take your point, but it is more serious than dungeons, can we agree with that?

Just to clarify: I couldn`t care less about other people DPS in raids and trials when Im pugging because that how it is. I can only expect for better performance in my static or with friends.

What I don`t get it is the hypocrisy of entitled DPS who wants tanks to pull for then to not "slow then down" while in trials extremes or raids do minimal dps, slowing down the entire party. So they only want optimal speed when is convenient for then. Learn my class? Too hard, better pull more mobs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯





And yes if the DPS ask politely I`ll ask the healer if he/she is okay with that and we can pull wall to wall, but for the most part. I like to take my time in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Eden normal is serious.

Ehehehehe.

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It's more serious than dungeons, at the very least, and, either way, I can see what he's implying.

As for replying to this thread, I'm a supporter of adjusting to the party at hand, no matter the role. But, then, I don't mind small pulls in dungeons. I'm not usually in a rush.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

I take your point, but it is more serious than dungeons, can we agree with that?

Just to clarify: I couldn`t care less about other people DPS in raids and trials when Im pugging because that how it is. I can only expect for better performance in my static or with friends.

What I don`t get it is the hypocrisy of entitled DPS who wants tanks to pull for then to not "slow then down" while in trials extremes or raids do minimal dps, slowing down the entire party. So they only want optimal speed when is convenient for then. Learn my class? Too hard, better pull more mobs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And yes if the DPS ask politely I`ll ask the healer if he/she is okay with that and we can pull wall to wall, but for the most part. I like to take my time in dungeons.

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AoE rotations are generally far simpler things, and even a mediocre player can put out good AoE numbers. There's less to track, it's more straight forward (Hit the glowy button).

If not wall to wall, then double packs. I certainly wouldn't recommend wall to wall in Mt. Gulg. That's just asking for trouble, but double packs at the minimum, because every mob pack is just big enough for aoe to be better, so double pack at least cuts your average dungeon time in by about a third. Plus it's more fun for everyone involved.

And, to be clear, I don't always wall to wall, but I always pull double, unless someone's still rocking a level Byakko weapon and the DPS gear is broken. (That was a fun Dohn Meg, hoooooo).

If you want to take your time, that's what the Trusts are for. Presumably, we're queuing into DF because we want a quicker run than what Trusts give us, so it seems counter intuitive to me to go slower than what the party is capable of.

And if you aren't going for the moon in Experts, oof. Why do I even have Thunder 4 if you're not going to let me use it.

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Originally Posted by Juanpierre

I don't care about feelings, including my own. If the healer can handle me pulling wall-to-wall, I'll do it. If a healer runs ahead and pulls a pack, it tells me I can move faster. So I do. If a dps pulls, I don't get my feelings hurt. I pick up the mobs/boss and we kill them as fast as possible.

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This.

They can type "go faster" in party chat, or just grab more mobs to send me the message. Either way, I tank the mobs that need tanked, lather, rinse, repeat. Whatever. There are no bonus points for being polite, using good form, following a specific playbook, etc. Live through content, get content done as efficiently as possible, move to next content. If they overestimate the group's ability and we wipe, okie doke, lesson learned. If not, and we just do the dungeon faster, okie doke, lesson learned.

Just not sure why this is even a gripe.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

AoE rotations are generally far simpler things, and even a mediocre player can put out good AoE numbers. There's less to track, it's more straight forward (Hit the glowy button).

If not wall to wall, then double packs. I certainly wouldn't recommend wall to wall in Mt. Gulg. That's just asking for trouble, but double packs at the minimum, because every mob pack is just big enough for aoe to be better, so double pack at least cuts your average dungeon time in by about a third. Plus it's more fun for everyone involved.

And, to be clear, I don't always wall to wall, but I always pull double, unless someone's still rocking a level Byakko weapon and the DPS gear is broken. (That was a fun Dohn Meg, hoooooo).

If you want to take your time, that's what the Trusts are for. Presumably, we're queuing into DF because we want a quicker run than what Trusts give us, so it seems counter intuitive to me to go slower than what the party is capable of.

And if you aren't going for the moon in Experts, oof. Why do I even have Thunder 4 if you're not going to let me use it.

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With proper CD rotations and a medium healer (aka any healer who is not fresh-out-of-jump-potion), I can do wall-to-wall. It is just a personal preference to play the dungeons how they meant to be played.

Trust was a good addition but they are only for 5 dungeons and we have dozens in the game. We can't do roulettes with trusts either.

And to reinforce, the dps can ask to increase the pacing (maybe sometimes you have something to do IRL and just want a quick clear). I can do it with no problem, but let`s have the common courtesy. Even if this is a virtual environment and a game, some concepts should not be far from the realm of common sense, but a lot of people in this game have trouble with minimal communication in this game. That is another problem.

I usually ask politely to let me pull, if they pull again i start ball dancing until the puller dies.

DPS pulling bosses isn't a big deal in dungeons, especially if you're already there or right behind them. You can just take aggro with one ranged attack anyway. It is a problem that you told the party you were no longer going to do your role out of spite, which is a kickable offense.

Ask them not to pull before you. That usually fixes things, but if they cop a huge a attitude in response, then initiate a vote-kick. DPS are almost always instantly replaced, and I guarantee that unless they are a group, then the moment vitriol appears in the chat-window then the healer and other DPS will become just as immediately uncomfortable with the person who started it even if they remain silent.

If the attitude is big enough, just leave the instance yourself. Your tank queue is likely just as instant. You're in the power-position here, so don't let these things bother you.

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Originally Posted by Raim

DPS pulling bosses isn't a big deal in dungeons, especially if you're already there or right behind them. You can just take aggro with one ranged attack anyway. It is a problem that you told the party you were no longer going to do your role out of spite, which is a kickable offense.

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The tank is not doing the right thing, no doubt. However, the dps isn’t any better. it doesn’t matter how easy aggro generate by tank, pulling ahead of tank not by accident or not acknowledging the tank ahead is equally lack of repsect as letting the party die intentionally.

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Originally Posted by Misutoraru

The tank is not doing the right thing, no doubt. However, the dps isn’t any better. it doesn’t matter how easy aggro generate by tank, pulling ahead of tank not by accident or not acknowledging the tank ahead is equally lack of repsect as letting the party die intentionally.

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Unleds the party dies as a direct result of the dps pulling...it really isn't. One is disrespectful to the tank, the other is disrespectful to the entire party (for the actions of one member, by the way). Not seeing the equivalence here.

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Originally Posted by FrejyaAthenes

Unleds the party dies as a direct result of the dps pulling...it really isn't. One is disrespectful to the tank, the other is disrespectful to the entire party (for the actions of one member, by the way). Not seeing the equivalence here.

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Let the puller die, then take aggro and keep going. Hopefully the healer will not res and the puller will learn their lesson.

No need to let the whole party take the hit.

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Originally Posted by armandojc3

Let the puller die, then take aggro and keep going. Hopefully the healer will not res and the puller will learn their lesson.

No need to let the whole party take the hit.

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Whole party is taking the hit.

Because it's going to take longer since you let them die.

At the end of the day, being petty solves nothing. And even though you won't admit it, you're wasting your own time for letting your party members die on purpose just to "teach them a lesson".

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Whole party is taking the hit.

Because it's going to take longer since you let them die.

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The party can thank the DPS later for that.

DPS that overstep their boundaries need to be snapped back sometimes.

I get it alot leveling DRK right now. Some people just need to go fast for whatever reason. I don't mind trying to get through dungeons quickly but it's not necessary so, please stop running ahead of me jumping up and down then kiting things to me if I didn't pull every single mob, is what I would say if people waited long enough for me to type something out on my ps4 controller. Not every person playing a tank has run that content into the ground or has the bis tome gear for that tier dungeon, so it's just pretty rude. I notice some players even running into the walls that get put between some trash packs trying to sneak off and grab more but forgot they have to do this part first.

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Originally Posted by smol_cofe

I get it alot leveling DRK right now. Some people just need to go fast for whatever reason. I don't mind trying to get through dungeons quickly but it's not necessary so, please stop running ahead of me jumping up and down then kiting things to me if I didn't pull every single mob, is what I would say if people waited long enough for me to type something out on my ps4 controller. Not every person playing a tank has run that content into the ground or has the bis tome gear for that tier dungeon, so it's just pretty rude. I notice some players even running into the walls that get put between some trash packs trying to sneak off and grab more but forgot they have to do this part first.

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I'd say your should get yourself a cheap keyboard to plug into your ps4. Trying to type with the controller is just so awful.

I think more tanks agree with your double pull assessment than one would lead to believe, Kabooa. Personally, I like it when we can go faster too. Although the issues I see in the thread is every group can have a different scenario. Sometimes, we have to communicate to help understand each other and possibly teach others what limits they can break.

Going back to the first post, the tank did make a mistake using a countdown when it wasn't needed. The Dragoon could have elected to communicate so the tank would hopefully stop doing that, but instead pulled without a word. The pull clearly didn't work to let the tank know of his mistake, so the fires just got fanned needlessly. Even if you are not going to be friends with the people, there is still a higher chance of getting what is desired if at least an effort for respect is given.

If you're not the tank, you shouldn't be pulling. Anything that happens as a result is entirely on you. If you pull without waiting for the tank, I'm just going to assume that you're the one that's going to be doing the tanking and everyone else can just focus on DPS.

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Originally Posted by Blanchimont

If you're not the tank, you shouldn't be pulling. Anything that happens as a result is entirely on you. If you pull without waiting for the tank, I'm just going to assume that you're the one that's going to be doing the tanking and everyone else can just focus on DPS.

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In real life, that's an argument you never ever win (unless you are grouped with two other friends). The only way you accomplish your above scenario is if you actively turn your tank stance off or you stand back and let them die without doing anything. In either case, you get flamed the first time. Second time, you get booted. That's how that works, regardless of the right and wrong of it. You might feel justified, but you also didn't complete the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Juanpierre

(unless you are grouped with two other friends).

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This is an interesting thing to think about particularly. Haven't everybody ever run a dungeon with that one MNK / SAM / NIN / DRG / <insert job with timed buffs to upkeep> friend who yells on discord "MY BUFFS" before charging into a boss. He takes an auto in the face, you pull it off of them, meme about MNKs and GL abit and let it go because you know, your friend don't mean to disrespect you, it is what it is. Why assume random pugs mean to "disrespect" tanks for doing the same thing?

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Originally Posted by Juanpierre

In real life, that's an argument you never ever win (unless you are grouped with two other friends). The only way you accomplish your above scenario is if you actively turn your tank stance off or you stand back and let them die without doing anything. In either case, you get flamed the first time. Second time, you get booted. That's how that works, regardless of the right and wrong of it. You might feel justified, but you also didn't complete the dungeon.

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Ive never ever been blamed or booted for letting a puller die, if anything the puller has been booted.

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Originally Posted by armandojc3

Ive never ever been blamed or booted for letting a puller die, if anything the puller has been booted.

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In my experience, I've never had a single time where I haven't been criticized and/or booted. That's part of the reason why I don't do it anymore. I just suck it up and finish the dungeon. Leads to faster clears, which is the better scenario from my perspective.

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Originally Posted by ashwich

This is an interesting thing to think about particularly. Haven't everybody ever run a dungeon with that one MNK / SAM / NIN / DRG / <insert job with timed buffs to upkeep> friend who yells on discord "MY BUFFS" before charging into a boss. He takes an auto in the face, you pull it off of them, meme about MNKs and GL abit and let it go because you know, your friend don't mean to disrespect you, it is what it is. Why assume random pugs mean to "disrespect" tanks for doing the same thing?

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You mean slaping your friend in the face out of the blue has the same result/means the same thing as doing it with a stranger?? hmm

My friends pull bosses ahead of me, we all laugh about it, then we laugh about me Shirking them to death, and we have some fun in discord. and that in no way can be related/applied to pugs.

Its mmo etiquete 101 people... tank pulls, thats the "preset", if you think the tank is slow or doing ridiculous "countdown" on dungeons, just let him know, instead of pulling stuff.
And vast majority of the tanks, to let a DPS tank something to death, its because they did it more than once or twice.

If a dps pulls a boss or another pack of mob, i just assume it was an accident, i grab the agro and move on. If it happens again ill ask them politely to stop (packs and w2w pulls is something decided between healer and tank anyway).

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Originally Posted by ExLegen

You mean slaping your friend in the face out of the blue has the same result/means the same thing as doing it with a stranger?? hmm

My friends pull bosses ahead of me, we all laugh about it, then we laugh about me Shirking them to death, and we have some fun in discord. and that in no way can be related/applied to pugs.

Its mmo etiquete 101 people... tank pulls, thats the "preset", if you think the tank is slow or doing ridiculous "countdown" on dungeons, just let him know, instead of pulling stuff.
And vast majority of the tanks, to let a DPS tank something to death, its because they did it more than once or twice.

If a dps pulls a boss or another pack of mob, i just assume it was an accident, i grab the agro and move on. If it happens again ill ask them politely to stop (packs and w2w pulls is something decided between healer and tank anyway).

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The problem with this is interpretation. Why do you comparing a non-tank pulling the boss equivalent to being physically assaulted in real life?
While I agree communication generally make things better. It goes both ways. A tank could ask "why" before taking something so insignificant personal.

Had a group last night in Stone Vigil Hard that the DPS ran ahead and pulled, even though I was pulling wall-to-wall. I just adjusted and just took what they pulled. Healer handled it very well and even DPSd. The damage from the DPS was high enough to warrant it.

They would sprint in on boss fights and pull.

I didn't have any problem with it. I just grabbed what they pulled and tanked. Stuff died to fast to care.

I don't blame them, DPS have the longest queues in 50/60/70 DR. I can understand they want to get this done and do something else.

What I am miffed about, is that I have gotten Stone Vigil Hard three times within two weeks; prior to ShB, I was never placed in it through DR...

You're in a dungeon and you're doing a 10 second pull timer before you pull? Well I'm not surprised DPS pull then since they have procs that are being needlessly wasted.

Literally not seen even one DPS pull a boss in a dungeon this expansion personally.

All I wan (leveling dps now) is for tanks to spam their aoe moves now while running from pack to pack with adds so I can dps on the move.

There's zero reason to not be doing it with TP gone.

And FFS, USE.SPRINT.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

All I wan (leveling dps now) is for tanks to spam their aoe moves now while running from pack to pack with adds so I can dps on the move.

There's zero reason to not be doing it with TP gone.

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There is a reason if you're Warrior. It's called "Overpower is target dependant, and will turn me around if I use it".

I don't need to be that disoriented, thanks.

Just had a RDM pull Eden 3 Normal during a ready check. Sry if are impatient enough to not even let a ready check finish when someone wasn't ready... im not tanking for you. Ill kill myself and watch until after the pull. Its direspectful for everyone if you are impatient enough just to see if everyone else is ready.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

There is a reason if you're Warrior. It's called "Overpower is target dependant, and will turn me around if I use it".

I don't need to be that disoriented, thanks.

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Spam Mythril Tempest.

Or tab target Tomahawk, I don't care which.

Or just hit Thrill of Battle or Equilibrium and generate like 300k threat.

The threat system of Shadowbringers is a joke, you click on 1 aoe button and every mobs attack you. The only way to fuck this up is by miscalculating the aoe range of your spell.

In general, there is 2 cases where a dps pulls before the tank : first is when everyone see that the group is doing great (good healer, good tank, good dps) and that dps are helping the tank by pulling some mobs (if done correctly it's always nice, even if not needed if the tank knows his stuff) / second is when the tank is slow as a snail, and waits 4 seconds before EVERY PULL and when he does pull it's 1-2 mobs at a time. And it's not even adjusting to the group's level, it's just a lack of knowledge on his tanking capabilities.

A good tank will rarely face a wild puller, because he will be ahead of the group and charging at the right times. A bad tank (aka "I wait 5sec in front of a boss when everyone is ready, or I pull 2 mobs at a time for the whole dungeon) will face this kind of situations... but he's often at fault for being slow. ALSO ALSO, I see MANY tanks failing at using the good threat spells at the right times... even if you have only 2 main spells (the single target range attack, and the aoe one) : USE THE AOE, SPAM THE FUCK OUT OF THE AOE, DON'T USE THE RANGE ATTACK ONLY, YOUR DPS WILL AOE MOBS DOWN ON THE MOVE IF THEY CAN, USE THE RANGED ATTACK ONLY IF THEIR ARE FEW TARGETS ON YOUR PATH AND THEY ARE FAR AWAY FROM EACH OTHERS. That's it.

We all have a job to do : healers need to heal / dps need to dps (and let's face it : MANY dps don't know what an aoe rotation is. I have seen many "Ice" BLM. The fun part is that, when you tell them to click on their FIRE SPELLS, they say stuff like "I'm tired today, I want to sleep, I don't have the strenght to press the rotation so I just use infinite MP ice spells lul" or "I used them now, happy lol ?") / and tanks need to pace the dungeon well (because tanking is a non ussie in itself). Can you understand that a dps has to wait much more than you in queue, and when he's in, he sees his tank pulling 1 weak pack at a time ? For the whole dungeon ? That's infuriating.

So yeah, don't be petty. Press your god damn threat generating spells and do your job. Instead of being a "He DoeS NoT REsPeCT mE As ThE TaNK" manchild, press your god damn buttons and lean how to pace the dungeon.

And to the "try to communicate with your tank ;) ;)" argument, the problem is that some tanks will indeed be petty and refuse to do so BECAUSE you asked them. "I will not be ordered around, I'm the tank, you will do as I say", it's not that rare to hear it.

Literally everything generates aggro, it's crazy. This is some reddit jerking yourself off because you're the tank nonsense.

I bet you hated getting DNC is roulettes because Standard/Technical Finish are such huge AOEs they can pull half the dungeon without even intending to.

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Originally Posted by ColaSama

In general, there is 2 cases where a dps pulls before the tank : first is when everyone see that the group is doing great (good healer, good tank, good dps) and that dps are helping the tank by pulling some mobs (if done correctly it's always nice, even if not needed if the tank knows his stuff) / second is when the tank is slow as a snail, and waits 4 seconds before EVERY PULL and when he does pull it's 1-2 mobs at a time. And it's not even adjusting to the group's level, it's just a lack of knowledge on his tanking capabilities.

A good tank will rarely face a wild puller, because he will be ahead of the group and charging at the right times. A bad tank (aka "I wait 5sec in front of a boss when everyone is ready, or I pull 2 mobs at a time for the whole dungeon) will face this kind of situations... but he's often at fault for being slow.

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Quoted for accuracy. DPS that pull are arseholes, but so are you for being so damn slow. Literally nobody needs a countdown for a boss in a dungeon; you very likely cost the DPS damage due to ticking buffs or cooldowns.

The DPS in the screenshot was a moron but you shouldn't take that as justification for your actions (both leading up to and after the fact).

I don't typically pull ahead of slow tanks because it's not worth the trouble, but in every case where the other dps (or often even the healer) does and the tank throws a hissy and leaves the group or whatever, the groups just keeps on going without issue, gets another tank within 20 seconds, and generally goes at a much faster speed as a result because generally people that have found and bother to turn on join group in progress tend to be less stupid somehow.

It's rare that it's turned out bad for me as a dps or healer when a slow tank decides to prove a point.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

All I wan (leveling dps now) is for tanks to spam their aoe moves now while running from pack to pack with adds so I can dps on the move.

There's zero reason to not be doing it with TP gone.

And FFS, USE.SPRINT.

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Sprint is absolutely necessary for pulling, this is right.
Its best used when you pull first group, use sprint and pull everything else in order to avoid damage from mobs, its a part of useful tank mitigation.
But you cant sprint pull and damage mobs with aoe them at the same time, because you will take damage that way.
Tanks should never stop for using aoe during the pull, a dps SHOULD STOP DAMAGING THEM because enmity will jump from tank to dps and will only cause havoc.

Tanks should not stop and should not take time to aoe already pulled mobs, because it will damage the tank and could cause a wipe if healer has no CD available or has bad reflex.