The Healer Double Standard

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Have you read this thread?

Almost none of it is constructive.

---

Then why are you still here? I can only surmise that you enjoy argument for the sake of argument. If constructive discussion is what you crave then act like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiznypKC

Then why are you still here? I can only surmise that you enjoy argument for the sake of argument. If constructive discussion is what you crave then act like it.

---

Poke holes, ask questions, get a broader perspective, mostly.

And poking the occasional "Miasma is good" hornet nest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Poke holes, ask questions, get a broader perspective, mostly.

And poking the occasional "Miasma is good" hornet nest.

---

That was rhetorical. Nevertheless, you’re clearly not interested in learning why people are upset and are only here for your own entertainment.

Peace. ✌

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DiznypKC

That was rhetorical. Nevertheless, you’re clearly not interested in learning why people are upset and are only here for your own entertainment.

Peace. ✌

---

I understand quite clearly why people are upset. Some of them I even agree with.

See ya.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shalan

I spent a bit scouring the four major interviews with YoshiP following the media tour and release of role-action information, and out of roughly 223 questions there were 92 question related to roles/classes.

Of those 92 questions, only 3 were focused on healers. And they all came from a single interview.

Now, this may be somewhat set off balance by the introduction of a new tanking/DPS job. But having an entire role that's undergoing some hefty changes and was already in something of an uproar/fervor over the lack of information following the Fan-Fests and previous live letters, having only 3.26% of your role questions being healer oriented is insufficient. In fact, some interviews went out of their way to avoid addressing healers ("As for the job balance, setting aside healers...") in favour of other roles.
Simply put, we've been left largely in the dark to stew over the changes with little official statements on our concerns, and that's not something you want to have happen with your consumers.

---

Absolutely pathetic. (emphasis mine)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

lol.
Are you serious? First of, what am I supposed to do when nobody needs heeling, standing around with my thumb up my ass? Watching Netflix? Sorry, I\\'ll rather quit playing and do something more interesting with my time, thank you very much. And it\\'s not like I love DPSing so much; I would gladly spam heals exclusively if the situation afforded it. Sadly, unless goes horribly, horribly wrong, that\\'s never the case. So, without any other way to support my party, what, in your eyes, am I supposed to with my time?

Also, anyone thinking healer DPS contribution is so little it doesn\\'t matter must be drunk or high. Last time I healed Savage, my co-healer and I combined dealt more damage than the weakest DPS (who was, granted, new to the fight and undergeared; still 14% damage contribution is nothing to scoff at and we would still have dealt DPS-level damage together had he been level with everyone else). Any healer duo worth their money can pull that off, so saying healer DPS doesn\\'t matter is laughably short-sighted and implies a pretty deep lack of understanding of how the game works.



Cure procs still, nominally, exist... but what WHM with a shred of self-esteem ever sees one? Maybe one who had to raise so many people he ran OOM, and could cast nothing but Cure I... and even then, I personally prefer to DPS.

---

You can play a more active role if you don't find healing engaging. You can do whatever you want with your free time but the healer classes aren't designed around your personal preferance. Sorry about it.

Rather than complain perhaps play a DPS if you need to be actively doing something all the time. Also, if you've read my comments I'm vocalizing people tend to pick up a healing class to heal and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not required they DPS it's not like it's against a rule or a reportable offense. It's perfectly fine to have opposing opinions and debates. It just so happens the "heal happy" type of healer had SE backing and the DPS obsessed are not set up got success currently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahati

You can play a more active role if you don't find healing engaging. You can do whatever you want with your free time but the healer classes aren't designed around your personal preferance. Sorry about it.

Rather than complain perhaps play a DPS if you need to be actively doing something all the time. Also, if you've read my comments I'm vocalizing people tend to pick up a healing class to heal and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not required they DPS it's not like it's against a rule or a reportable offense. It's perfectly fine to have opposing opinions and debates. It just so happens the "heal happy" type of healer had SE backing and the DPS obsessed are not set up got success currently.

---

And yet, the trust NPC healers... *gasp* cast damaging spells in dungeons when shown in the live letter with Yoshida. What an odd thing for the developers to program them to do if they weren't designed to do so...

Miasma is redundant and Art of War is better in concept then Miasma II.

Also Combust III is the best AST animation, the little wrist flick they do l is sick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bahati

You can play a more active role if you don't find healing engaging. You can do whatever you want with your free time but the healer classes aren't designed around your personal preferance. Sorry about it.

Rather than complain perhaps play a DPS if you need to be actively doing something all the time. Also, if you've read my comments I'm vocalizing people tend to pick up a healing class to heal and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not required they DPS it's not like it's against a rule or a reportable offense. It's perfectly fine to have opposing opinions and debates. It just so happens the "heal happy" type of healer had SE backing and the DPS obsessed are not set up got success currently.

---

In other words, your answer is "just stand around with your thumb up your a** and look pretty.
If that is fun to you, great, it sounds boring like hell to me to wait for 30 seconds to cast my next, damn heal, and I honestly cannot see how anyone could find that engaging and fun. It would be different if the game actually demanded you to heal, but it doesn’t, and so here we are. Btw, no, I’ll never main a DPS. I’ve been dependent on other people’s whims far too long; I’ll not go back into that place, especially not in a game I play to try forget the outside world. This is the same reason why I don’t tank all that much, I just don’t feel save when somebody else has my live in their hands.

Your claims also heavily contradict what Conjurers are told in early game play by NPCs, and what the aesop of that entire questline is about. To refresh your mind since you seem to have forgotten, in that questline, not only are we, from level 1 onward, repeatedly told that conjury is far more than only healing, and that our damage skills also play a big part in the job; but the NPC Sylphie is very adamant about not doing anything at all besides healing, and needs to be shown the error of her ways by you. We don't have anything but healing and DPS spells as WHM, so the only thing we can really do outside of healing is, oh! DPS! Btw, diminishing our options won't stop us from DPSing, you better get that idea out of your head real quick. It just makes healing far, FAR more boring. Also, I'll let a friend of mine touch on where your "if you want to be active, play DPS" leads to in the logical conclusion, if people actually follow your "advice".

And jfc, it even contradicts how they programmed their very Trust Companions! Did you watch the liveletter last night? ANYONE who still claims they want healers to just heal when their very own NPC healer companions do engage in DPS for a significant portion of the fights needs to get their heads checked up, since there's clearly something wrong up there. Yes, that includes the devs themselves since they don’t even stick to what they want people to do themselves!

Also, I talked about this to a friend of mine earlier, showed him our conversation. This is what he had to say about all this:

Quote:

---

That person setting themselves up on a logical slope where they can say the healer class can be removed from the game.
>healers aren't intended for DPS
>healers progressively lose abilities to bring them in line with that
>healers are bored waiting for someone to get hurt enough to heal
>healers don't want to play a game where they're doing nothing
>players either stop or ditch healers for DPS classes
>few healers remain >SE sees interest going to DPS but drop in healers
>SE acts accordingly, allows DPS to have greater healing ability

Do you see where this person is going? They don't realize it but their awful rhetoric is setting up that slope argument
All because they pretend to know what the devs think and intend
You're arguing with someone basing their arguments on assumptions and lack of knowledge
Yeah, that person needs to understand that what they're talking about leads to FFXIV getting a big overhaul. Now I don't how GW2 works, I've never played, but I know how companies work. SE, at the end of the day, needs to get more and more players online and subscribing. I think at this junction, all the FF fans who would play 14 are already playing it. SE needs to look at making new fans. Inevitably, that means dipping into mass appeal based on what other popular, medieval fantasy themed MMOs are doing, and that's WoW, GW2, and ESO, Elder Scrolls Online. And ESO is still an Elder Scrolls game and the crux of those is living out a power fantasy, you absolutely can solo everything in ESO because that's part of the Elder Scrolls gameplay design since Arena in 1995. That person doesn't understand the rhetorical path their on leads to SE making sweeping changes to FFXIV, all because they didn't want to hear someone else's grievances
By saying "if you don't like how healers are supposed to play, then go DPS", that person is tossing aside a large percentage of the FFXIV player base and telling them to do something else that they don't want to, and it turns out this is important in an RPG, role play as
Sure, you can always go DPS. Lots of people would. Most people would. Because most people don't like sitting around and waiting until someone needs a heal
That's not fun. More DPS means things dying faster too, and now you've opened up a can or worms
How is that getting balanced? Are the healers going to be less useful because things will die faster than they can deal damage? Will a dearth of healers lead to SE changing DPS classes to have greater self healing abilities? Will enemies need to be reworked and buffed to the point where you're just back to where you started?
Or will, going against what this person wants to think, healers be given greater DPS capacity because SE is hearing that no one wants to play a role that they're bored out of their minds with?
I saw a video where an arcanist was doing sastasha and basically playing healer for everyone with physik because the party's healer sucked. Yes, that's a bad healer. However, rightfully balanced, that shouldn't have happened. Yeah, that party should have been screwed. Balance doesn't mean everything works out hunky dory, it means everyone syncs and plays their roles harmoniously. And when you don't do it, you get screwed.
That's literally the point of an MMO. I'll say it to this person again, I almost have half a mind to make an account for this: If you want to play a game where your class can do it all and be it all, then go play Skyrim.

---

This friend I’m quoting here has played less than a month, yet understands more about game design and balancing and how things should work out than you do.
Oh, I would also like to mention that it's a horrible idea to chase off all the competent healers out there. Try imagine the nightmare of having your average dungeon healer in Savage or Ultimate content just because all the good ones ultimately left due to healers being dead boring to play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doozer

Well to be fair enmity is generated by attacking, healing, or special tank skills. It's not the job of healers to generate enmity, but it is for tanks. Therefore, they benefit from both attacking and their special skills in order to do their job.

Though I wouldn't "riot" if tanks had less DPS, because I often take aggro from the MT when I'm OT even though they're in tank stance and I'm not.

---

not really .. if u limit a role to its primary goal.

like healer only dps

then tanks would only be there to taunt and soak up damage. It's their role. A tank would not need dps tools .. he only need to keep aggro .. by any means. So if we go into crazy logic, tanks only need enemity actions and defensive temps. and maybe 1 or 2 offensive stuff for solo :) ... just like they do for healers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nalol

not really .. if u limit a role to its primary goal.

like healer only dps

then tanks would only be there to taunt and soak up damage. It's their role. A tank would not need dps tools .. he only need to keep aggro .. by any means. So if we go into crazy logic, tanks only need enemity actions and defensive temps. and maybe 1 or 2 offensive stuff for solo :) ... just like they do for healers.

---

Yep, two attacks (300 potency or so each) that generate massive aggro, an aoe, and an Identity ability. The rest Defensive CD's.

No tank ever would accept that, but it's perfectly fine for healers for some stupid reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

Yep, two attacks (300 potency or so each) that generate massive aggro, an aoe, and an Identity ability. The rest Defensive CD's.

No tank ever would accept that, but it's perfectly fine for healers for some stupid reason.

---

No no no, if we are going by healer logic, the attacks cannot generate the aggro needed to hold hate, because that would be doing DPS while doing your job, and we can't have that. Therefore, DPS-less aggro gathering tools, a DoT, an AoE, a Spam Attack, and ways to defend yourself.

Not actually being serious about this, but remember, the DPS have to DPS, not the tanks or healers, because it's not our primary goal.

Yes, I am joking, just saying how far we can take this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nalol

not really .. if u limit a role to its primary goal.

like healer only dps

then tanks would only be there to taunt and soak up damage. It's their role. A tank would not need dps tools .. he only need to keep aggro .. by any means. So if we go into crazy logic, tanks only need enemity actions and defensive temps. and maybe 1 or 2 offensive stuff for solo :) ... just like they do for healers.

---

So.... FFXI tanking without the ability to gear swap and having a sub job?

FFXI PLD
1. Flash (single target) spell for volatile enmity and a powerful, but very short blind
2. Provoke ability from the WAR subjob for volatile enmity (think of Provoke in this game, but instead of just putting you at #1, it gives you an enmity value)
3. Several ability CDs to reduce damage
4. Shieldbash for stuns and enmity
5. Cure spells to use on self to maintain hate
6. Auto-attacks only for damage

FFXI NIN
1. Using shadow ninjistu spells to be shields to avoid damage (needed constant casting and be able to count remaining shadows)
2. Provoke ability from the WAR subjob for volatile enmity
3. Used a "tanking stance" (which didn't come out until almost a decade after NIN was released)
4. Used elemental rotation ninja spells to maintained hate (very low damaging)
5. Used enfeebling spells to maintain hate
6. Auto-attacks for damage

We can go back there if you guys want. I tanked in FFXI on both PLD and NIN, so it is no problem with me. Just get ready to carve out a large amount of time just to queue and do dungeons.

Threaten me with a good time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilenya

No no no, if we are going by healer logic, the attacks cannot generate the aggro needed to hold hate, because that would be doing DPS while doing your job, and we can't have that. Therefore, DPS-less aggro gathering tools, a DoT, an AoE, a Spam Attack, and ways to defend yourself.

Not actually being serious about this, but remember, the DPS have to DPS, not the tanks or healers, because it's not our primary goal.

Yes, I am joking, just saying how far we can take this.

---

There was a PLD tank in another thread who was tired of healers not DPSing so he spend the whole run with flash and nothing else (maybe a riot blade for MP) and kept aggro the whole time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

There was a PLD tank in another thread who was tired of healers not DPSing so he spend the whole run with flash and nothing else (maybe a riot blade for MP) and kept aggro the whole time.

---

You mean someone using nothing but his aggro generator kept aggro? How surprising. But my joke was "How far can we take the idea that jobs only do what the jobs are 'meant' to do in the Trinity set-up.

Also, man, that would be boring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilenya

Also, man, that would be boring.

---

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/attac...int-jpg.16985/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MintnHoney

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/attac...int-jpg.16985/

---

I meant to say “spot on,” but the text didn’t take. lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilenya

What part of "People pushing the highest tier raids" didn't fit exactly what you said?

---

It only matters for 1% of our population. As long as a job can perform its duties. It’s fine. Speed killers is a very low percent of the population. Clearing content and farming it is all that needs to be balanced around. Speed killers will use w/e is best sure. But there will always be a best group to go with for certain fights and that’s fine as long as other jobs can win any fight pulling the weight needed for clear.

Sure am glad the dev's took away my damage options but still gave me not much to heal I love spamming only broil 3

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tikiwiki

Sure am glad the dev's took away my damage options but still gave me not much to heal I love spamming only broil 3

---

Don't forget increasing the CD on Surecast but making it not work on most knockbacks. (Looking at you E3 and E4)

Aim for balance but never perfect balance. Fighting games are full of interesting characters with different strengths skills and weakneses. However often there will be only like 12 tournament viable number of characters out of 24. That’s a healthy number. People who play at high end of the game have a decent number of characters to pick for winning high end games.

If you wanted perfect balance. Every character would need to be the exact same character, which is what is slowly happening to this game. I don’t think it’ll ever get that bad. But the closer we get to that the less interesting the game will become.

Fighting games are a bit of a poor analogy. This is a cooperative game, not a competitive one. In a fighting game you can pick a low tier and likely lose, but that's your choice and you still get to play. In a co-op game, other people may get upset at you picking a low tier class, and may not allow you to play.

Secondly, the teams are bigger here. Think how a fighting game is at its worst balance, say only two characters are even considered worth playing. Every match is the same two characters over and over again. It's boring to play and even more boring to watch. Now look at FFXIV 8-man content. If only two healers are viable, those two healers are then always required for content, and are thus the ONLY healers in any group ever. Ideally any job is considered viable. At the very least there should be more viable jobs than party slots for the sake of variety.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

Don't forget increasing the CD on Surecast but making it not work on most knockbacks. (Looking at you E3 and E4)

---

Seriously, what's up with that? I get that it was pretty OP in its previous state, but dramatically increasing the CD and making it not work as often feels like overkill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Fighting games are a bit of a poor analogy. This is a cooperative game, not a competitive one. In a fighting game you can pick a low tier and likely lose, but that's your choice and you still get to play. In a co-op game, other people may get upset at you picking a low tier class, and may not allow you to play.

Secondly, the teams are bigger here. Think how a fighting game is at its worst balance, say only two characters are even considered worth playing. Every match is the same two characters over and over again. It's boring to play and even more boring to watch. Now look at FFXIV 8-man content. If only two healers are viable, those two healers are then always required for content, and are thus the ONLY healers in any group ever. Ideally any job is considered viable. At the very least there should be more viable jobs than party slots for the sake of variety.

---

In a fighting game you can choose a suboptimal character and play at lower levels. In ffxiv you can choose a suboptimal character and PUG. There’s never going to be a point where you can’t play your preferred class.

I also find it hard to believe that ALL the pre-built parties care so much about getting through the content as quickly as possible that they won’t take someone who will do it slightly slower. If some class in incapable of doing the job they’ll get left behind, but that’s a much bigger problem than lack of balance.

Personally I feel like the majority of players having less fun because their jobs are becoming simpler and more like one another is a bigger issue than a small percentage of people at the very top end getting rejected from speed-clearing parties.

Man, isn't it funny how when the healer changes were first announced everyone was like "you're overreacting, it's not out yet, it'll probably be fine" but once it did come out and we did get to play it that it was exactly like we thought it would be. Healing is the same as ever and we have less to do in down time. Meaning our role is much less fulfilling now

BTW deceptus, been seeing you post a lot about scholar on the forums, and I gotta say, I agree with just about everything you say on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Man, isn't it funny how when the healer changes were first announced everyone was like "you're overreacting, it's not out yet, it'll probably be fine" but once it did come out and we did get to play it that it was exactly like we thought it would be. Healing is the same as ever and we have less to do in down time. Meaning our role is much less fulfilling now

BTW deceptus, been seeing you post a lot about scholar on the forums, and I gotta say, I agree with just about everything you say on it.

---

That's because that is how the cookie crumbles with this 'great' community. People will bend over backwards to defend anything the developers/Yoshida say or make. This is of course regardless of whether or not the received product is garbage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Videra

That's because that is how the cookie crumbles with this 'great' community. People will bend over backwards to defend anything the developers/Yoshida say or make. This is of course regardless of whether or not the received product is garbage.

---

No. I just put more stock outside the randos on a forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

No. I just put more stock outside the randos on a forum.

---

I put stock in what I see. What I saw before Shadowbringers was released came to pass. Everyone with a functioning pair of eyes could blatantly see that they were having shit shovelled at them by having healer DPS options neutered, and yet some people defended it. It is truly astonishing. On top of the cavalcade of awful changes to Astrologian, which people also gave feedback about, and got a completely non-sensical response of; 'Wait until launch!' and now we're at the 'Wait until savage!' point, and then we'll be on to "Wait until 6.0!".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Videra

I put stock in what I see. What I saw before Shadowbringers was released came to pass. Everyone with a functioning pair of eyes could blatantly see that they were having shit shovelled at them by having healer DPS options neutered, and yet some people defended it. It is truly astonishing. On top of the cavalcade of awful changes to Astrologian, which people also gave feedback about, and got a completely non-sensical response of; 'Wait until launch!' and now we're at the 'Wait until savage!' point, and then we'll be on to "Wait until 6.0!".

---

Yes. The battle team that designs the job is also the one that designs the encounters. That's the logic. It's sound logic to see the jobs in their new state in the content they were designed for.

And you know what? I've enjoyed White Mage so far. The other two I still need to work through but I only have so much time.

Now, I'm not trying to gloat. I'm actually on the same ship regarding card changes, I just disagree where it should head. Same bit as Scholar. I think resource conflict was a key part of Scholar. I don't care much for Energy Drain but something should replace it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yes. The battle team that designs the job is also the one that designs the encounters. That's the logic. It's sound logic to see the jobs in their new state in the content they were designed for.

And you know what? I've enjoyed White Mage so far. The other two I still need to work through but I only have so much time.

Now, I'm not trying to gloat. I'm actually on the same ship regarding card changes, I just disagree where it should head. Same bit as Scholar. I think resource conflict was a key part of Scholar. I don't care much for Energy Drain but something should replace it.

---

Considering the fact that FFXIV has been rote and stuck in its ways for several years, whatever made you think that healing in 5.0 would be different appears to be lunacy. At least, to me. I cannot possibly pretend to understand your perception, but people were right. A lot of unnecessary (read: outside of savage/extreme fights) healing tools were added, and what made both Scholar and Astrologian fun got chopped as the cost. This isn't what anyone wanted.

White Mage should get aero 3 back if nothing else. SE needs to expand on the healer DPS toolkits, not contract them. Apparently, massive job changes are incoming in the savage patch, according to JP patch notes, but I will believe that when I see it happen.

To add onto the point about Astro: It was more butchered so that SE could try (and fail) to fight against the concept of 'The meta' and stringent party compositions which only applied in speed kills and world first bleeding edge racing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Videra

Apparently, massive job changes are incoming in the savage patch, according to JP patch notes, but I will believe that when I see it happen.

---

Knowing SE, I wouldn't be shocked if they did something stupid and DID have big changes, but that they made the situation even worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Videra

Considering the fact that FFXIV has been rote and stuck in its ways for several years, whatever made you think that healing in 5.0 would be different appears to be lunacy. At least, to me. I cannot possibly pretend to understand your perception, but people were right. A lot of unnecessary (read: outside of savage/extreme fights) healing tools were added, and what made both Scholar and Astrologian fun got chopped as the cost.

---

My perception is that encounter design is limited by player toolkits.

And Astro and Scholar were -very- limited toolkits. Adding another facet of DPS to them doesn't change encounter design at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Knowing SE, I wouldn't be shocked if they did something stupid and DID have big changes, but that they made the situation even worse.

---

You mean like 4.2 Warrior?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

Aim for balance but never perfect balance. Fighting games are full of interesting characters with different strengths skills and weakneses. However often there will be only like 12 tournament viable number of characters out of 24. That’s a healthy number. People who play at high end of the game have a decent number of characters to pick for winning high end games.

If you wanted perfect balance. Every character would need to be the exact same character, which is what is slowly happening to this game. I don’t think it’ll ever get that bad. But the closer we get to that the less interesting the game will become.

---

Problem with that mentality when it comes to healers is there's only 3 to choose from and two are mandatory for content. So they need to be balanced, and right now, they're not.

This is AFTER we missed out on a new healer because "they wanted to balance what they had". SE has had 4 years to "balance" healers, and so far they haven't done a great job. They need some new blood or something because what has been going on for the past 4 years isn't working.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Videra

To add onto the point about Astro: It was more butchered so that SE could try (and fail) to fight against the concept of 'The meta' and stringent party compositions which only applied in speed kills and world first bleeding edge racing.

---

This. SE needs to stop balancing around the top 1% of the player base and around the 90% and lower that the majority of plays like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deceptus

This. SE needs to stop balancing around the top 1% of the player base and around the 90% and lower that the majority of plays like.

---

Looking at it like that it makes sense with the restrictions of AF, limited fairy interactions and the cooldowns of things like Rescue and Chain Strat. It might just all work well in a well-planned fight like you find in Savage. But there is so much more content you play in than that. I'd wish they saw not only is a lot of time spent in lower-than-80 content for leveling, but also in the daily roulettes and the times to you try to fight something solo like in the MSQ. If they'd only first made sure that part is fun to play.

It might be the current rendition of not only healers but also rest of the jobs were only designed, tested and balanced for Extreme and upcoming Savage and now they're afraid of doing anything akin to 3.0 or earlier it might throw off a delicate number-crunched balance they achieved. If that is the case we might want for a seperate system like PvP and Eureka: You get a set of unbalanced and OP, but full and fun set of skills like with the old Primary, Secondary and Tertiary cross-class system to use everywhere else and then you have the current system we see today for Savage fights, where the developers can tweak and adjust so it fits in perfectly with the scripted fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sloprano

Looking at it like that it makes sense with the restrictions of AF, limited fairy interactions and the cooldowns of things like Rescue and Chain Strat. It might just all work well in a well-planned fight like you find in Savage. But there is so much more content you play in than that. I'd wish they saw not only is a lot of time spent in lower-than-80 content for leveling, but also in the daily roulettes and the times to you try to fight something solo like in the MSQ. If they'd only first made sure that part is fun to play.

It might be the current rendition of not only healers but also rest of the jobs were only designed, tested and balanced for Extreme and upcoming Savage and now they're afraid of doing anything akin to 3.0 or earlier it might throw off a delicate number-crunched balance they achieved. If that is the case we might want for a seperate system like PvP and Eureka: You get a set of unbalanced and OP, but full and fun set of skills like with the old Primary, Secondary and Tertiary cross-class system to use everywhere else and then you have the current system we see today for Savage fights, where the developers can tweak and adjust so it fits in perfectly with the scripted fights.

---

I feel like for everything outside Savage we’re starting to see balancing be towards the absolute bottom than the absolute top. Healing requirements are the perfect example of this; devs want healers to heal which is fine, but then design all healing content around the idea that players are desperately struggling to meet healing requirements, which is almost never the case outside of savage in my experience.
It’s the same with DPS toolkits for healers. Developers aren’t simplifying it to address any kind of healer savage balance, it’s just because they don’t want healers to be too ‘complicated’. The same could even be argued for things like buffs/debuffs on healers. They aren’t trying to adjust healer strength in savage with removal do things like Virus and Disable, they just wanted to make healing easier for everyone outside of that content.
The real question is how they expect players to ever learn things like maintaining buffs or debuffs or DPS as a healer when they design content so that everything outside of savage doesn’t need those. And that ultimately leads to healers being incredibly bored because healing is far too easy but we don’t have anything to fill the huge amounts of downtime (which I assume will be much less in savage)

This is one thing I can definitely say I just don’t get. They balance the healing kit for savage, then balance everything outside of savage as low as they possibly can, so healers end up with an insanely powerful tool but barely anything to use it on. They don’t want healers to be overburdened, then give them a toolkit that assumes the player is overburdened

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doozer

Funny that people are raving now that SCH is getting this when AST has had it literally the entire time. 1 DPS button, 1 DoT button, and one AoE. Were you crying at the beginning of HW because of that too, or only now because it affects your main job?

Also you're literally not arguing against anything I said. I said tanks benefit from the aggro generated from DPS, hence why it makes sense for them to still have it.

---

Except the flaw in your argument is that SCH isn't AST.

Nobody plays SCH because they want to spam 2 buttons, that's why you choose to main WHM or AST. By your logic should we also not get mad if we give black mage no casting penalty for movement? I mean MCHs and BRDs have been mobile literally the entire time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dogempire

Except the flaw in your argument is that SCH isn't AST.

Nobody plays SCH because they want to spam 2 buttons, that's why you choose to main WHM or AST. By your logic should we also not get mad if we give black mage no casting penalty for movement? I mean MCHs and BRDs have been mobile literally the entire time.

---

Also, AST had the cards to play with.

Also, I really wish (although I understand it's never happen) that the deva would tie dps into healing. Like by having the lily vague fillbased on a combination of time passed and damage dealt, so dpsing would also help you heal better directly. (It already helps indirectly because the quicker something dies the less damage it does). That way we could stop this stupid argument of "past design choices mean healers should be more boring".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dogempire

Except the flaw in your argument is that SCH isn't AST.

Nobody plays SCH because they want to spam 2 buttons, that's why you choose to main WHM or AST. By your logic should we also not get mad if we give black mage no casting penalty for movement? I mean MCHs and BRDs have been mobile literally the entire time.

---

SCH and AST are both healers, BLM and BRD are different roles.

Furthermore, no one picks up AST or WHM because they want to spam 2 DPS buttons, they pick them up cause you know...they wanna heal.

People play SCH when they like shields, AST when they like buffs, and WHM when they like the big heals.

SCH was only special because of the 30 levels where people had to play Arcanist, so I mean, if Thaumaturge is going to level up into Bard, then yeah, the way the Job is built should probably change to match the others.