It's past time, Yoshi-P...

If it is the mob's fault, is it not also the devs' fault for making it that way? Isn't it their fault when they said that they would fix the combat system?

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

That quote is absolute bullshit for 90% of all roullete pugs, the tank takes way too much damage especially on big pulls for any of that crap to be true. If he had to heal THAT little he's either way overgeared or the tank was way above average.

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No, that's not at all unheard of for that dungeon. I do roulette dungeons all the time and don't have a static. Results vary between groups and dungeons, but that number is entirely reproducable in that dungeon.

It's not even the most absurd example. Looking at you, O2N. There's a fight where Regen and Eos (if it's a WHM/SCH team) are more than sufficient to heal the tank the entire run. The ONLY time I need to cast any other heal is when the party takes damage, all of which is telegraphed, and most of which is avoidable. With a group that avoids stuff (which in DF is common these days), I can go for absurdly long periods of time where the only healing I'm doing is "put Regen back up". That's one GCD every 21 seconds, which is even less than 17% uptime. Sure, at some point I'll need to fire off an Assize and probably get an Indom from the other healer, but that's it, and those don't burn a GCD.

The rest of the time, what am I doing? I'm either using the buttons available to me to help the group (Stone and Aero), or I'm doing /playdead.

Sure, other dungeons require more healing. When I get a "pull to the wall" tank in Ala Mhigo, I'm doing a lot more healing than that. But it's never close to the only thing I'm doing, and if they did cautious pulls I'd barely be healing at all. That's the core issue here: tanks have to do big pulls before they're threatened at that level of content, even when they don't massively outgear it. The question isn't "should healers be DPSing?", because the answer to that is yes, unless they feel like standing around eating popcorn.

The question is really "should the game be designed such that healers have so much healing downtime?"

There is no problem when Tanks and Healers can contribute to the DPS when they can. It makes it more fun and less boring. Tanking is already boring as it is. Run in front press 2 buttons and stand still until mobs die. Healing on non demanding situations is also boring. The problem is when people are obsessed with DPS meta and start harassing others. I've seen some people do it on normal dungeons.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

But it is. That's how the game is designed.

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The way I understood it, that's what he doesn't like, and I kind of agree. Being a good healer just makes you a boring one-button DPS that sometimes has to lose GCDs to heal. You can only cast stone so many times before you start hating life.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

And its not Yoshi P's fault...its the stupid mob (you know who you are).

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It's not the lead on the game's fault that the game leaves healers with so much idle time that they fill it with DPS? It's the fault of the "mob" for thinking that spending half of a fight standing around doing nothing while everyone else works to clear the encounter is suboptimal gameplay?

That's an interesting viewpoint.

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Tanks are supposed to Tank - and when I say Tank - that means pull aggro - hold aggro - End of discusison.

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Oh good, that means I can spam Flash 6 or 7 times then eat popcorn for the rest of the encounter. By your standard, I don't even have to try to mitigate damage. Score!

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Healers are supposed to Heal - not #%@#% pull aggro (anyone who does this should be shot)
DPS is to DPS - again...not pull aggro.

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Pretty sure nobody advocated in favor of pulling aggro...

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Now...that said. Tanks can do a fair bit of DPS...but this is a bonus...a secondary goal no more no less. UNLESS - the situation calls for it...as in extreme/savage/ultimate's with a well coordinated party. Of course extra Tanks also permit this. Assuming the main tank is doing his job.

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Which is pretty much what the "mob" says. I haven't seen a whole lot of people saying that tanks should be putting DPS first, only that they should be trying to do it once they have aggro secured.

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Healers should ALSO contribute DPS - but that is again...a secondary task...if the party is doing well - they should be DPS'ing - but only to the point of not compromising their healing job. Too many healers go stupid in this area and end up running out of mana. Cooldowns be damned - mana is life - don't mess that up.

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... so you're agreeing with the mob?

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DPS'ers should avoid AOE/Damage zones/and DPS - If they can do this much - they will be fine.

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Hopefully they can do more than that. There's really nothing helpful about me having to hardcast Raise because three other DPS decided to stand in the fire and the Red Mage doesn't think its his job (despite being the best in the game at it).

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Now getting kicked/harassed/yelled at/judged by the oh so ever loving "logs" - you can bet ill be reporting your ass and you will NOT escape the GM's wrath.

Thankfully I've not encountered this aside from a mentor being mouthy and a DPS'er refusing to do his job in a dungeon because the tank didn't pull the way he wanted it.

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... I'm just confused now. This thread is about if there should be so much healing downtime that healers can spend over half the fight DPSing as a game design issue. What are you talking about?

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But I for one play the game as its designed...and i do this for fun.
SE doesn't care about what anyone does unless you inhibit or destroy the experience with your opinionated elitist mindset.

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The game as designed says that healers should be DPSing, unless you believe that standing around for up to 83% of the fight doing nothing is "by design", when all those DPS buttons are sitting there waiting to be used.

So you appear to be agreeing with the mob again, although I guess now we're the elitist mob?

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But this is a MOB problem...the community at large. Not SE. People abuse/exploit the system as they see fit. Want to do something about it? Change your attitude and mindset....teach others....share....you just might fix the issue.

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How is using my abilities the way they're designed to help clear content "abuse"? If SE doesn't want me to cast Stone in raids, they can very easily ensure I don't do that. Instead, they went the opposite route and made it EASIER in Stormblood for me to use it.

What does that tell you?

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Originally Posted by Xerek

Not a full solution, but what if SE were to tighten iLvl caps? Using Expert, for example. Ala Mhigo was rough my first time in my i290 gear, as was Shinryu normal. Now I can stomp both with impunity. While some of that can be attributed to experience, I have to think my i338 gear has a weeeee bit to do with it.

So I wonder, if there was a tighter iLvl limit, would it help make it feel more chalenging?

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Ala Mhigo already caps at 310, and you're stomping it there. That's not a huge uptick from 290. It would make it harder to cap it at 290, but it'd also remove any sense of progression.

The main reason why it's gotten easier is people know what to expect in it now, whereas we were all figuring it out early on. Rabanastre is showing the same kind of curve on it, where it started off as a nightmare fuel gong show but is quickly getting smoother as familiarity goes up.

I rarely have ever seen complaints against anyone while running dungeons, so dunno :/

If OP hasn't abandoned this thread:

It will never happen unless they increase the bottom level difficulty of casual content (roulettes). You can literally be half asleep in these things and still clear. If you separate players into 2 groups, 1) I dont have to try hard, i want it to be easy, 2) I want to try hard all the time, and combine them in the same content: you're gonna have this discussion forever.

to try-hards like me, its inexcusable that you don't try and DPS as much as you can.
to casuals, its inexcusable to ask for more than what is minimally required to clear content.

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Will every expert roulette only require 17% healing? No, but Taika didn't say that, the point was made that this one did. Maybe that Savage prog BLM tipped the scales with great DPS. Maybe the WAR could have been more conservative in his pulls to require even less healing. The point is not that every expert roulette requires 17% healing uptime but rather that if a dungeon can be completed at 17% then it seems insane to argue any healer doesn't have the time to throw in some DPS.

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That level of DPS is mostly found on bosses, who hit tanks ridiculously soft. You're not doing 17% healing on trash if the tank is pulling respectably in Stormblood. Trash actually hits much worse in terms of raw damage than bosses, which is a huge problem for this game. Bosses hit so weakly that your healer can dps nonstop and maintain that level of uptime easily. This is why i dislike parsers, numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This is why i dislike parsers, numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

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That's not very logical: wouldn't parsing the incoming damage of current SB dungeons and separating the bosses from the trash back up exactly what you were saying: trash hits harder now, bosses still not so much? :)

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Originally Posted by Taika

That's not very logical: wouldn't parsing the incoming damage of current SB dungeons and separating the bosses from the trash back up exactly what you were saying: trash hits harder now, bosses still not so much? :)

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You don't need to parse that. You can eyeball it. But stats like 87% uptime have to be put in context of what happens in the dungeon, not just trotted out like they solve arguments.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You don't need to parse that. You can eyeball it. But stats like 87% uptime have to be put in context of what happens in the dungeon, not just trotted out like they solve arguments.

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Of course! There's context outside the numbers, such as the party setup, experience with the content and their jobs, item level etc. that the parser doesn't tell. But there's also a lot of context in parser numbers: incoming damage vs. heal (overhealing or underhealing in specific parts), mitigation and possible healing abilities used by non-healers (including the use of tank stance vs. DPS stance), activity of each party member, group DPS and its distribution between members, the amount of actions used by each party member and so on... Of course you can eyeball some of it, but the numbers can tell you things in a much more detailed manner.

Edit: I did try to provide context for the numbers in my original post about my experiment, quoted earlier in this thread. What are the things that you find to be missing from that?

This argument people were just using those numbers without acknowledging that they exist in a context, because they batched together the different phases of the dungeon. The healer who doesn't like to DPS sees the high uptime part of trash and neglects or forgets that bosses are much easier; the dps pro is forgetting how intense it is to heal the large pack of trash that everyone is aoeing down, and that it is usually the difficult part, not the actual bosses. People tend to give numbers standing alone an authority they shouldn't give, as if stating a percent or raw target number somehow alone settles an argument.

Parsers only exist because SE failed to give accurate feedback of how well you do in a dungeon, and relied on stupid, non-intuitive forms of damage like dots being the highest potency overall of your attacks. Something as simple as a combo counter that grows each time you land your 1-2-3 combos in a time limit, or a nice explosion at the end of a DOT that gives slight bonus damage would do much better than a parser in helping the average player.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

This argument people were just using those numbers without acknowledging that they exist in a context, because they batched together the different phases of the dungeon. The healer who doesn't like to DPS sees the high uptime part of trash and neglects or forgets that bosses are much easier; the dps pro is forgetting how intense it is to heal the large pack of trash that everyone is aoeing down, and that it is usually the difficult part, not the actual bosses. People tend to give numbers standing alone an authority they shouldn't give, as if stating a percent or raw target number somehow alone settles an argument.

Parsers only exist because SE failed to give accurate feedback of how well you do in a dungeon, and relied on stupid, non-intuitive forms of damage like dots being the highest potency overall of your attacks. Something as simple as a combo counter that grows each time you land your 1-2-3 combos in a time limit, or a nice explosion at the end of a DOT that gives slight bonus damage would do much better than a parser in helping the average player.

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I've.. yet to see anyone actually care about trash mob parses...

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Originally Posted by Teinixi

The way I understood it, that's what he doesn't like, and I kind of agree. Being a good healer just makes you a boring one-button DPS that sometimes has to lose GCDs to heal. You can only cast stone so many times before you start hating life.

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It's not always the same case. If you only heal you either afk every 3-5 seconds even 6-8. If you do both you have time to cast a lot of more stones. However, it's not always like that. You also have to learn how to controll your OgCds plus it's not always time to cast stone when there is some little bit healing etc. If you are really good at it, it gives you really high reward of terms of healing and dps.
SCH you need to controll your pet, use xcog when it's good to use, you have to use the pet teather as well if you want to squeeze in some more dps when tank gets hit a bit harder etc. I'm not really a big fan of AST so I cant tell, however, I can understand from your view and his that you both don't like it (that if you both come from MMO where healers can only heal). I've played MMO where healers have to heal and MMO where there are no healers but yourself to blame if you go low on HP. Blade and Soul is one of them for example. But it's alot more interactive doing both dps instead of just healing. You don't exactly heal all the time either just as you dont always dps.

If you like to have a better skill ceiling and do more, play SCH. It's realy high reward if you play it well too.

If healers and tanks DPS is so much important that without it no one beat enrage, how about turn something like this META?

https://i.imgur.com/dvGFMgE.jpg

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

If healers and tanks DPS is so much important that without it no one beat enrage, how about turn something like this META?

https://i.imgur.com/dvGFMgE.jpg

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Doesn't that actually further the point that tank/healer dps is potent and contributes alot?

I'd be 100% OK with shifting the game to a 0 DPS healing paradigm and a actual tanking paradigm.

In order to do that though you'd need to actually make those jobs engaging:

1) Healers would need to heal frequently and necessarily. No more only needing heals every 10s nonsense.
2) Give healers external cooldowns to help mitigate damage on tank/other parties mandatory for surviving tough damage phases.
3) Tanks would need actual responsibilities. Real aggro drops, dangerous enemy damage, active mitigation model (via rotation/abilities not long cooldowns). Interrupts, and CC needed and mandatory or else dire consequences etc. You'd need to have enemies and bosses need to be moved to control space, etc.

Would you be ok with the game design shifting this way? Anything less than this and you'll see an enormous exodus away from tanks/healers because playing these jobs would be absolutely mind-numbing.

Best way to heal or tank is a dead monster.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Things and stuff.

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Oh I'm not against healer DPS, I just think that the healer DPS rotations are boring as shit, at least for WHM and AST, which means that most of the fight you're basically pressing one button. Haven't played much of SCH but from my limited experience, the balance of DPS/healing skills in their kit feels much better than the other two.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

It's time to kill this DPS meta dead. When tanks and healers are getting harassed for doing their stated jobs in an Expert dungeon, something has gone off the rails.

Over-reliance on DPS races in raids has spilled over into all other aspects of the game, and is causing needless stress among people who couldn't give two rats' farts about FFLogs or parses.

When a forum thread stretches 43 pages with wannabe pros relentlessly damage controlling for the DPS meta, something is seriously wrong with the direction of the game.

Tanking and healing need to mean something. That means dispensing with DPS races in favor of high or fast damage to tanks, requiring heightened attention to restoring HP or preventing damage.

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Its also an option to stop watching netflix or playing facebook games, stop chatting during a dungeon and just focus on the dungeon itself. If you do all of that you are able to do some dps without any problems except the gear is so bad that the tank dies in an instant or the healer heals baby numbers.

I don't give a rats ass about fflogs in dungeons but i would die of pure boredom if i would just heal or just tank in a dungeon because i'm able to use more than just 3 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Teinixi

Oh I'm not against healer DPS, I just think that the healer DPS rotations are boring as shit, at least for WHM and AST, which means that most of the fight you're basically pressing one button. Haven't played much of SCH but from my limited experience, the balance of DPS/healing skills in their kit feels much better than the other two.

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Yeah SCh truely is. :) I don't like AST too much because it feels too bloaty too me, but SCH is really a good balance between the WHM and AST!

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Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

Doesn't that actually further the point that tank/healer dps is potent and contributes alot?

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Yes, sure.

But that raises another questions: Why do you need DPS jobs if a bunch of healers - that's is on the bottom of the DPS numbers - are capable of meeting DPS checks and not hit enrage? And why DPS jobs, that deals way more damage than a healer and a bit more than a tank, don't meet those minimum numbers without the healer's and tank's help? Isn't that not even fishy?

Healers and tanks must give their help, sure. But don't forget that meet DPS check is a DPS's job, not healer's or tank's.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Yes, sure.

But that raises another questions: Why do you need DPS jobs if a bunch of healers - that's is on the bottom of the DPS numbers - are capable of meeting DPS checks and not hit enrage? And why DPS jobs, that deals way more damage than a healer and a bit more than a tank, don't meet those minimum numbers without the healer's and tank's help? Isn't that not even fishy?

Healers and tanks must give their help, sure. But don't forget that meet DPS check is a DPS's job, not healer's or tank's.

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Because most people don't want to be in content longer than 30 minutes, which is where the dps come in. Also you wouldn't be meeting savage-level dps checks without proper dpses.

DPS checks are everyone's job though. Everyone contributes to dps in this game. There are other games where this isn't the case.

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Originally Posted by Tint

wiiiich brings us back to the original purpose of this topic. not IF healers should be dpsing, since we already have cleared this question years ago, BUT if healers should be dpsing this much.

up to 90% dps uptime on a healer is in my eyes not acceptable. this should not be possible.

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Absolutely agreed here, I'd love to see disruptive mechanics diverting my attention from just smashing aero/holy as hard and fast as I can. The issue of course is how do so without ruining things for people less geared or mechanically skilled than me.

In all honesty, the only thought I have would be to dabble with CC again much like what we had in the ARR Betas, it was the norm to CC everything due to trash packs being larger and hitting far harder relative to how less geared people were. Juggling a bunch of Repose timers makes it much harder to go nuts with the dps!

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

But that raises another questions: Why do you need DPS jobs if a bunch of healers - that's is on the bottom of the DPS numbers - are capable of meeting DPS checks and not hit enrage? And why DPS jobs, that deals way more damage than a healer and a bit more than a tank, don't meet those minimum numbers without the healer's and tank's help? Isn't that not even fishy?

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Regarding point 1, the bulk of content is tuned to such a low standard that the DPS checks are barely worthy of the word. Thus Shinryu getting killed by 3 people, or mid field raid teams killing O1S on day one of it's release with 20+ deaths. On the flipside, O4S was literally unkillable upon release without a fairly significant amount of healer and tank DPS pitched in.

I've got no qualms with the content, but I think SE need figure out a means of getting a much more progressive difficulty curve going across a wider range of content than what we have now.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

If healers and tanks DPS is so much important that without it no one beat enrage, how about turn something like this META?

https://i.imgur.com/dvGFMgE.jpg

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that would probably be impossible to clear bc no healers would dps and even the tank would stay in tank stance

I want to contribute significantly DPS no matter what role I play, and I want to do so skillfully and for it to be expected on top of my current jobs and duties. Being able to stance dance and do DPS on tanks/healers is one of my favorite things about this game and a huge reason why I actually play it over other games.

Being a support slave is boring and I do NOT ever want the game to go to that point.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I want to contribute significantly DPS no matter what role I play, and I want to do so skillfully and for it to be expected on top of my current jobs and duties. Being able to stance dance and do DPS on tanks/healers is one of my favorite things about this game and a huge reason why I actually play it over other games.

Being a support slave is boring and I do NOT ever want the game to go to that point.

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Neither do I but I am sick of idiots who want the healers and tanks to put out silly levels of unrealistic dps. Not everyone plays only one class. the time it takes to get good enouguh at pressing the 30+ buttons each class has at 70 is quite long if you're gonna do 3k dps as a healer or tank. SE still hasn't done enough to close the skill gap on classes and addressing skill bloat is the first step.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Neither do I but I am sick of idiots who want the healers and tanks to put out silly levels of unrealistic dps.

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Can you show some examples of situations or forum posts in which healers or tanks are asked to do silly levels of unrealistic DPS?

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Originally Posted by Taika

Can you show some examples of situations or forum posts in which healers or tanks are asked to do silly levels of unrealistic DPS?

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Not neccesarily referring to the forums but it happens in game plenty.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Neither do I but I am sick of idiots who want the healers and tanks to put out silly levels of unrealistic dps. Not everyone plays only one class. the time it takes to get good enouguh at pressing the 30+ buttons each class has at 70 is quite long if you're gonna do 3k dps as a healer or tank. SE still hasn't done enough to close the skill gap on classes and addressing skill bloat is the first step.

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What is unrealistic dps to you? How long does it take you to get good enough at pressing "30 buttons" on any class? Really it just takes some time on a dummy practicing your opener and rotation everyday, but apparently that's too much effort for some people.

Skill gap will always be an issue as long as A) People don't care, and B) People don't press buttons. You can make the rotation one button that's called "Do Damage", and you'll still have people slacking just because they don't think it's important to chase the gcd.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Not neccesarily referring to the forums but it happens in game plenty.

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Funny, I've played a healer in this game since 1.0 and not once have I been asked to do an unrealistic amount of DPS. I have, however been asked to do unrealistic amounts of healing, latest case only two weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

What is unrealistic dps to you? How long does it take you to get good enough at pressing "30 buttons" on any class? Really it just takes some time on a dummy practicing your opener and rotation everyday, but apparently that's too much effort for some people.

Skill gap will always be an issue as long as A) People don't care, and B) People don't press buttons. You can make the rotation one button that's called "Do Damage", and you'll still have people slacking just because they don't think it's important to chase the gcd.

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The game has skill bloat issues. This is clear. it's 2017 and you don't need a seperate button for every ability. SE made it a little better with the SB changes but they havent done enough. Combos need to be condensed, and more abilities need to share a button when possible.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

The game has skill bloat issues. This is clear. it's 2017 and you don't need a seperate button for every ability. SE made it a little better with the SB changes but they havent done enough. Combos need to be condensed, and more abilities need to share a button when possible.

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Again, this wouldn't help with the dps disparity issue. People still would just refuse to learn rotations, press buttons, and generally put in effort. What's your proposal to fix that? How can se force people to try?

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Neither do I but I am sick of idiots who want the healers and tanks to put out silly levels of unrealistic dps. Not everyone plays only one class. the time it takes to get good enouguh at pressing the 30+ buttons each class has at 70 is quite long if you're gonna do 3k dps as a healer or tank. SE still hasn't done enough to close the skill gap on classes and addressing skill bloat is the first step.

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Healers scarcely have 20 buttons to press. What are you even talking about? In a dungeon setting, 3k is basically a few Holys. I have topped over 6,000 DPS on WHM. No one is expecting those levels but you should be doing something.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

The game has skill bloat issues. This is clear. it's 2017 and you don't need a seperate button for every ability. SE made it a little better with the SB changes but they havent done enough. Combos need to be condensed, and more abilities need to share a button when possible.

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Yes, let's just keep dumbing down the game because people can't be arsed to use their brains. Forget subtlety here. If you can't handle pressing 1-2-3 while rotating in a few oGCD, go play another job. I am tired of this bloody hand-holding mentality some people have. I didn't start out an amazing player with orange parses on the first Savage clears. I put in an effort to improve; I'm still improving now. I'm no better than anyone else. So why can't player x do what I did?

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Now...that said. Tanks can do a fair bit of DPS...but this is a bonus...a secondary goal no more no less. UNLESS - the situation calls for it...as in extreme/savage/ultimate's with a well coordinated party. Of course extra Tanks also permit this. Assuming the main tank is doing his job.

Healers should ALSO contribute DPS - but that is again...a secondary task...if the party is doing well - they should be DPS'ing - but only to the point of not compromising their healing job. Too many healers go stupid in this area and end up running out of mana. Cooldowns be damned - mana is life - don't mess that up.

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I just want to comment on the general idea that "dealing damage for tanks and healer is not mandatory" or that it's simply a secondary thing. (I'm not answering directly to NephthysVasudan because the whole post is a complete mess of contradictions making me impossible to know what "side" is taken here. I'm just quoting for the sake of having a reference.)

Your main objective as a team is to reduce the HP of the enemies you fight to zero. This is you main goal no matter your role. It's your goal as a Tank, a Healer or a DPS. All of you share that same objective. This means that your job as a party member is to do everything you can to reach that goal.
If you do not deal damage as a Tank or a Healer when you can, then you are absolutly not contributing like you should as a party member. You are letting other carry the burden that you could've carried yourself.

And that leads to the second reason why the argument of "it's optional" is completly hollow. If you have the option to contribute but aren't doing it because of subjective reasons in the context of a team effort, it simply means that you are a selfish jerk. You are dragging everyone down, when you could go up. If your own personal agenda is to shoot for the lowest possible level, then you should be playing singleplayer games. No exceptions.

In short: if you can do it, you should do it. It cannot be more simple.

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Originally Posted by Maero

I rarely have ever seen complaints against anyone while running dungeons, so dunno :/

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The reason why the complains are on the forums and not directly ingame is simple: when you queue for your daily roulette or whatever, if you get a princess healer doing nothing you'll usually not say anything out of the fear of starting a drama with a "you don't pay my sub!" individual. Besides, if that player is Lv.70 and is still playing like that, it's easy to assume that nothing that you'll say will change anything. So, you suck it up and deal with the fact that you are doing a dungeon with a terrible player. There's also the case where you are simply playing with a newbie. It's just not worth the risk.
Whatever the case, it's faster to get it done that way than starting an argument mid-dungeon and having some votekicks thrown around the place. So, yeah... People ingame are more silent about it because it's the best way to handle it live. It doesn't mean that people agree with princess healers (or tanks, but "princess tanks" deal a minimum of damage without even knowing. They're just not effective at doing it). They just silently endure the pain of having to deal with one.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Not neccesarily referring to the forums but it happens in game plenty.

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I haven't seen people asking for unrealistic DPS numbers from tanks and healers in-game in 4 years personally. All I've seen is people asking them to try to do more than the bare minimum amount. So I am unsure on how frequent this happens outside of savage content.

If you mean savage well in savage healer and tank DPS is required to clear it at least until people get overgeared anyway so some groups will ask you to do more DPS if you can. So if you cannot do what is required yet then you need to practice and improve or find a group that is okay with you not doing as much DPS as you could.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Not neccesarily referring to the forums but it happens in game plenty.

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Where? If a static has certain expectations, that's for them to sort out.

I've never seen a healer kicked in DF over DPS. People may expect a number > 0, but even that isn't all that typical in the Duty Finder. I've literally never seen a complaint about lack of healer DPS outside Ex/Savage tier when groups were hitting enrages, and if you're doing 0 DPS while hitting the enrage, then the group needs the DPS.

For the most part, what people want is effort. If you're active and trying to contribute, that satisfies almost everyone in DF.

Honestly I would have agreed with you prior to the change to cleric stance. I'm an average player. I'm not out to wring the most out of my class simply because I know I cannot. I live in a place where my ping is pretty much dirt and I suffer lag spikes tall enough to draw the interest of mountaineers. Do I screw up, certainly, I make some spectacular bonehead mistakes from time to time, but if I can throw some rocks at some mobs, anyone can throw some rocks at some mobs.

With all that said, I don't think the DPS meta is what's actually hurting everyone, I think it's the 'gotta go fast' mindset where if your dungeon isn't done in less time than it takes a pizza to be delivered then everyone is bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

The game has skill bloat issues. This is clear. it's 2017 and you don't need a seperate button for every ability. SE made it a little better with the SB changes but they havent done enough. Combos need to be condensed, and more abilities need to share a button when possible.

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While it would have likely been unpopular with the community, I would have preferred PvE had gotten the PvP skill treatment.