SAM out classing all other DPS

No single job right now is that overpowered at all and clearly encounter balance isnt a concern in this game with how you could light grind stuff like a1s.

I get what your saying but theres balance already and if your answer is to nerf one class into oblivion for balance that imbalance all on its own. Your just gonna take a longer route to get there.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

True, many buffs are low.

As for Mnk 3.x, it wasn't ignored for not being over the top dps with no buffs, just the other buffs were to good. Many still played Mnk and Mnks found spots in farm pfs, unlike casters.

Sam and Blm can both remain top dps, just not by such a large margin. And some buffs should not only be restricted to buffing physical dps imo.

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I'm pretty sure it's SAM>>MNK>NIN>BLM right now... not sure where you're getting BLM is second or whatever.
It's funny, because in 3.4/3.5, MNK was actually better than BLM/SMN. It had higher dps than either of them, and unless you were progressing, once you had the fights on farm/were well-geared, neither BLM nor SMN provided any crucial utility (hence the best comp being NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH by very far, as far as dps is concerned).

SAM was released 5min ago and people are easily claiming top DPS with it. And the rotation is easy as pie.

Other jobs have been nerfed for less.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I'm pretty sure it's SAM>>MNK>NIN>BLM right now... not sure where you're getting BLM is second or whatever.
It's funny, because in 3.4/3.5, MNK was actually better than BLM/SMN. It had higher dps than either of them, and unless you were progressing, once you had the fights on farm/were well-geared, neither BLM nor SMN provided any crucial utility (hence the best comp being NIN/DRG/BRD/MCH by very far, as far as dps is concerned).

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1) Ment without physical buffs or other buffs, Sam = Blm > Mnk ..
2) in 3.x, for speed runs/meta, it was with out a Mnk.., but Mnks could still get a spot in such pfs sometimes, just because their dps was good and used the mch "buff", while casters had way smaller chances to get in such pfs at all

and that is a bit of a problem .. again, too much physically buffs, bad for casters, again.. and Sam uses most buffs to the fullest

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Originally Posted by Ringabell

SAM was released 5min ago and people are easily claiming top DPS with it. And the rotation is easy as pie.

Other jobs have been nerfed for less.

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The thing is maybe the developers want samurai to the top damage dealer. Also, anyone who plays a samurai seriously will tell you it's priority list is pretty involved at level 70. Heck, even at 60, it is a challenging priority list. I like that!

With all that said, I agree we will likely see samurai getting a nerf when the next patch comes through to bring them in line with the rest of the damage dealers. My gil is on a 5% nerf overall with monks and black mages getting buffs in approx. the same amount.

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Originally Posted by Blacktestament7

No single job right now is that overpowered at all and clearly encounter balance isnt a concern in this game with how you could light grind stuff like a1s.

I get what your saying but theres balance already and if your answer is to nerf one class into oblivion for balance that imbalance all on its own. Your just gonna take a longer route to get there.

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Let me rephrase.
You seem to be a MNK main, so no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, a SAM player with the same skill level as you will constantly be between 10 to 15% above you.
To a DRG, this difference in DPS jumps to 15 to 20%.
In short, if you want to buff every DPS job to be roughly at the same level as SAM, you need to give everyone (but SAM, obviously), the equivalent of apermanent AoE Balance effect or a regular one for the worst jobs.

If you think that: 1) it doesn't make SAM OP, and/or 2) encounter balance won't be drastically affected, then you are completly delusional.

So basically, nerf SAM until its no longer the best DPS, then all the other DPS that have utility will outshine it, and it will be kicked out of the meta, cuz people werent happy not being on top of the parse.

The rotation isn't that easy, and I've had ninjas and monks keep up with me and got out dps'ed by a black mage sooo it depends on people knowing their rotation on those other classes trust me there are some horrible SAMs

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

So basically, nerf SAM until its no longer the best DPS, then all the other DPS that have utility will outshine it, and it will be kicked out of the meta, cuz people werent happy not being on top of the parse.

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If they want SAM to be the best DPS job, then they are welcome to do so, but make them something like 5-8% better than the second DPS. Being higher is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

If they want SAM to be the best DPS job, then they are welcome to do so, but make them something like 5-8% better than the second DPS. Being higher is ridiculous.

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Wasn't that what everyone said monk was, and it was in the same position you now want SAM to be in? Everyone cried monk didnt do enough DPS to support its lack of utility.

If you are wanting to nerf the only utility SAM has, then nerf every other jobs utility into the ground. No more SMN or RDM battle raise, no rdm heal, no battle litany, nothing. Make every DPS just straight up dps, and thats it.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

So basically, nerf SAM until its no longer the best DPS, then all the other DPS that have utility will outshine it, and it will be kicked out of the meta, cuz people werent happy not being on top of the parse.

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No one is making this argument. The point of contention is degrees, not absolutes. "Samurai is OP" does not equal "Samurai should not be top DPS."

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

No one is making this argument. The point of contention is degrees, not absolutes. "Samurai is OP" does not equal "Samurai should not be top DPS."

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The problem is, if you nerf SAM to the point where other jobs with more utility make up for the loss of damage, you effectively make SAM worthless in a raid.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The problem is, if you nerf SAM to the point where other jobs with more utility make up for the loss of damage, you effectively make SAM worthless in a raid.

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Which is literally where 'degrees' comes in. Balance is a worthy pursuit and this circular argument is tired.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

Which is literally where 'degrees' comes in. Balance is a worthy pursuit and this circular argument is tired.

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Ok, then how much do you nerf it? any more than it is, and its within the 5% utility of most other high hitting jobs.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Ok, then how much do you nerf it? any more than it is, and its within the 5% utility of most other high hitting jobs.

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Til consensus opinion doesn't lead to dozens of "SAM outclassing all other DPS" on the official forums and subreddits?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Ok, then how much do you nerf it? any more than it is, and its within the 5% utility of most other high hitting jobs.

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Are you implying if Samurai gets nerfed at all that it will be "within the utility" of other jobs? This is the most ridiculous thing I've read all day. Monk's brotherhood is its only real utility and 5% for every physical attacker in the party depends on the actual member of physical attackers* in the party excluding the tanks and it. If there is only 3 members the total raid dps will definitely not make up for the ridiculous damage SAM puts out.

edit: said melee, meant physical, forgot about bard/mch

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Let me rephrase.
You seem to be a MNK main, so no matter what you do, no matter how hard you try, a SAM player with the same skill level as you will constantly be between 10 to 15% above you.
To a DRG, this difference in DPS jumps to 15 to 20%.
In short, if you want to buff every DPS job to be roughly at the same level as SAM, you need to give everyone (but SAM, obviously), the equivalent of apermanent AoE Balance effect or a regular one for the worst jobs.

If you think that: 1) it doesn't make SAM OP, and/or 2) encounter balance won't be drastically affected, then you are completly delusional.

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I'm a SAM/MNK main that doesn't know which I'm going to end up raiding with, if I do at all at this point. But again, if you nerf or buff SAM to be only 3% to 5% higher than the second highest other mdps you will make the job obsolete. It's not about personal dps, it's about how much I bring to the team. If a SAM is doing 10% to 20% higher damage, good. My job isn't to match that as a MNK my job is to push my damage as high as I can and provide a 5% buff to that SAM to increase it's dps when I can. If you take that damage away, why would you ever bring a SAM to anything. If DRG matched SAM, why wouldn't I take that class when it has bat litany, dragon sight, and a debuff that applies to three other classes. If NIN matched SAM, there's zero reason I wouldn't take that instead when it gives a 10% damage up every minute to the party. The lack of utility is a problem in and of itself and will always be one but if the FFteam keeps making these kind of classes you have to balance it this way. There's no alternative. This has already happened before and I'm lost on why you would want it to happen again.

As for the encounter balance issue, nerfing one class to oblivion isn't going to do anything but imbalance the classes to the point where said class is played in any scenario. Pretty much how MCH is sitting now and for some reason people want SAM to be there for whatever reason. Every class will be nerfed or buffed to a point where encounter balance will be skewed regardless. This isn't something that's going to be avoided, it's an eventuality. Even then SAM isn't op to the point that it makes any class unviable either. While I think DRG is lower than it should be it's not low enough to warrant nerfing SAM just because someone has DPS envy.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

Are you implying if Samurai gets nerfed at all that it will be "within the utility" of other jobs? This is the most ridiculous thing I've read all day. Monk's brotherhood is its only real utility and 5% for every physical attacker in the party depends on the actual member of physical attackers* in the party excluding the tanks and it. If there is only 3 members the total raid dps will definitely not make up for the ridiculous damage SAM puts out.

edit: said melee, meant physical, forgot about bard/mch

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Not if there are only 3 members. if there are 4 members, and each of them has utility that would make up for the DPS that replacing one of them with a SAM would, then why bring a SAM, since the utility would buff the other jobs as well. Including tanks/healer dps

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Originally Posted by Blacktestament7

I'm a SAM/MNK main that doesn't know which I'm going to end up raiding with, if I do at all at this point. But again, if you nerf or buff SAM to be only 3% to 5% higher than the second highest other mdps you will make the job obsolete. It's not about personal dps, it's about how much I bring to the team. If a SAM is doing 10% to 20% higher damage, good. My job isn't to match that as a MNK my job is to push my damage as high as I can and provide a 5% buff to that SAM to increase it's dps when I can. If you take that damage away, why would you ever bring a SAM to anything. If DRG matched SAM, why wouldn't I take that class when it has bat litany, dragon sight, and a debuff that applies to three other classes. If NIN matched SAM, there's zero reason I wouldn't take that instead when it gives a 10% damage up every minute to the party. The lack of utility is a problem in and of itself and will always be one but if the FFteam keeps making these kind of classes you have to balance it this way. There's no alternative. This has already happened before and I'm lost on why you would want it to happen again.

As for the encounter balance issue, nerfing one class to oblivion isn't going to do anything but imbalance the classes to the point where said class is played in any scenario. Pretty much how MCH is sitting now and for some reason people want SAM to be there for whatever reason. Every class will be nerfed or buffed to a point where encounter balance will be skewed regardless. This isn't something that's going to be avoided, it's an eventuality. Even then SAM isn't op to the point that it makes any class unviable either. While I think DRG is lower than it should be it's not low enough to warrant nerfing SAM just because someone has DPS envy.

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Also all of this. ^

Just the gap is too big:

A) making the other jobs feels less rewarding
B) making too many flock over to Sam, Sam will be (if not already) overused
C) making it hard for casters (or mch) get a spot in farm pfs
D) making one player/dps hog all the big buffs, Sam (good night FFLogs)


We've seen how unbalanced/ over the top classes are not good gor the game. Sam might not need a nerf, but some others a slight buff. And Sam doesn't seem to get punished much either, compared to other classes.

A bad SAM and a good SAM are night and day. a bad SAM does about half the dps lol.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Not if there are only 3 members. if there are 4 members, and each of them has utility that would make up for the DPS that replacing one of them with a SAM would, then why bring a SAM, since the utility would buff the other jobs as well. Including tanks/healer dps

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If four members of the group are physical, in the case with a monk being DPS, then it would possibly be the two tanks, a monk, and a samurai, or instead a ninja. Here's the problem. Monk applying 5% physical dps ever 75 seconds to the NIN and two tanks won't beat out the Samurai. Tanks no longer do proper damage. Right now, the only reason tanks have any decent parses is because people keep stubbornly using slaying accessories from 3.4. It won't fly the more difficult the content becomes. Ninja's trick attack may make up for Samurai with the Monk there. The problem? That means there's no reason to have a Monk. Monk's own buff does not apply to it. Only surrounding physical attackers. If you have 2 casters in your party a monk is no longer necessary. A samurai can piggyback off of a Red Mage's embolden and a Ninja's trick attack far better than them. Monk giving 5% to a ninja and two tanks can't even compare.

As it stands, most of the group utility in added this patch is biased towards physical. Most dragoons will never use their dragon's sight on anyone but a tank or a melee since it has pathetic range. Embolden only buffs the physical attacks of anyone not the red mage. Brotherhood only buffs the physical attacks of anyone not the monk. The difference is that SAM does not need utility in order to shine, nor does it need support, where as DRG, MCH, and arguably MNK do. It also works together with all these buffs far better than most other classes, since obviously buffing the highest damage dealer is the best option. Right now, most utility exists to further push Samurai's damage, people would rather sacrifice a small amount of utility to bring a Samurai in to piggyback off the rest. It is not that the other classes don't do the same DPS, but that in certain comps at certain skill levels, there comes a point of "why not just take a samurai?" If a group were to have three casters, the only dps that could seriously compete for a spot against Samurai is a Ninja. That was my original point.

Edit: If I had an "ultimate point," or a tl;dr, it's just that most of the utility aside from Ninja just isn't strong enough to compete with outclassing a Samurai's damage. I've yet to see any mathematical proof that one class replacing a Samurai spot will bring overall more (raid) dps than a Samurai taking that spot itself.

One thing I will say about this thread... I can definitely see why SE doesn't like parsers. People really do care only about numbers.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

One thing I will say about this thread... I can definitely see why SE doesn't like parsers. People really do care only about numbers.

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SE doesn't dislike parsers because people care about numbers. They're afraid of harassment and a certain incident in the JP community also lit that fire.

Also yes, people only care about numbers, because everything in a MMORPG is decided by numbers. Whether or not you get loot is decided by a number. Whether or not you survive an attack is decided by an equation of numbers. How much damage you do is decided by a number. Hell, whether or not you're able to gather something is also decided by a percentage, or a number.

This ridiculous notion that "numbers don't matter," when they decide absolutely everything aside from player skill is getting very annoying.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Wasn't that what everyone said monk was, and it was in the same position you now want SAM to be in? Everyone cried monk didnt do enough DPS to support its lack of utility.

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Except that MNK only brings Mantra as group utility, which is either mandatory (very rare but happens in raid progression) or almost useless (I'm speaking before Stormblood). SAM has the slashing debuff, which is way more valuable than Mantra. So don't talk like SAM doesn't have group utility like with MNK.
With a SAM, you can go PLD/DRK or PLD/PLD without any trouble. You can completly go without a NIN if you have a SAM. SAM is better than NIN in every way, except maybe for very particular burst phases where Trick Attack shines. Also, since the changes to NIN, running SAM+NIN doesn't make both complementary, as both will have to overlap each other's slashing debuff.

NIN is just a glorified aggro management tool with legs at this point, as long as SAM remains so high.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

If you are wanting to nerf the only utility SAM has, then nerf every other jobs utility into the ground. No more SMN or RDM battle raise, no rdm heal, no battle litany, nothing. Make every DPS just straight up dps, and thats it.

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DPS is utility. That's new... Whatever.
I never said that I wanted to bring SAM down so much that it would not be picked ever. Everything isn't just black and white. That's why it's called balance. The point is to balance things so every option is as good as the other. And currently that's not the case. SAM is so strong that it outshines pretty much every other DPS by a large margin.

Of course SAM's DPS has to be high. But not that high.
Please try to understand what balancing and nerfing mean.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

One thing I will say about this thread... I can definitely see why SE doesn't like parsers. People really do care only about numbers.

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It's almost like that's the game.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

One thing I will say about this thread... I can definitely see why SE doesn't like parsers. People really do care only about numbers.

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Well if a class OUTPERFORMS the rest, why wouldn't you take said class?
You will kill whatever faster, see less mechanics either by skipping or by killing stuff before they do them, risk less wipes. All this stuff decreases the toll that raiding sometimes takes on the team.
Yeah, you play the game to have fun. But wiping repeatedly and/or spending a lot of time in a raid when it could be far less starts draining every person in there rather fast.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

This ridiculous notion that "numbers don't matter," when they decide absolutely everything aside from player skill is getting very annoying.

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I can imagine this guy playing his SAM and shrugging off whatever damage values he gets

"hm, 26k Midare Satsugekka"

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Originally Posted by GospelVhae

I can imagine this guy playing his SAM and shrugging off whatever damage values he gets

"hm, 26k Midare Satsugekka"

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I've seen parses with SAM at 4600, and NIN at 4400. if you add in trick attack, does that not put NIN at the same level as SAM? If we are going off that, then its the other classes that need buffs, not SAM needing a nerf.

and thats 35k setsugekkas thank you. Also, BLM was getting 22k crits at 60 lol. no one complained they were OP.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I've seen parses with SAM at 4600, and NIN at 4400. if you add in trick attack, does that not put NIN at the same level as SAM? If we are going off that, then its the other classes that need buffs, not SAM needing a nerf.

and thats 35k setsugekkas thank you. Also, BLM was getting 22k crits at 60 lol. no one complained they were OP.

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No one complained about Black Mages at 60 because they were substantially harder to play than Samurai is. There was little to no margin for error to get good dps out of BLM. Many people I know have switched to Samurai simply because it's so easy compared to Monk. It's also far more rewarding.

Edit: Also, I do agree that other classes need buffs, rather than SAM getting nerfed. My only problem is I don't trust SE to not overbuff any classes. It's easier to nerf than buff, it's part of why you see nerfs more than buffs in most games period. AST was a good example of what goes wrong with buffing a class in the 3.x series. People shrugged off WHM.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

No one complained about Black Mages at 60 because they were substantially harder to play than Samurai is. There was little to no margin for error to get good dps out of BLM. Many people I know have switched to Samurai simply because it's so easy compared to Monk. It's also far more rewarding.

Edit: Also, I do agree that other classes need buffs, rather than SAM getting nerfed. My only problem is I don't trust SE to not overbuff any classes. It's easier to nerf than buff, it's part of why you see nerfs more than buffs in most games period. AST was a good example of what goes wrong with buffing a class in the 3.x series. People shrugged off WHM.

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Yes, but they "nerfed" war and smn/sch, and everyone has thrown fits its now unbalanced, nerfs make everyone unhappy.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Also, BLM was getting 22k crits at 60 lol.

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You said it yourself. Critical hit.
If I'm not mistaken a 22k midare setsugekka should be a non crit-non direct hit midare. Since dragoon full boosted Full Thrust direct crit is 16k, and midare setsugekka without any buffs is almost double the potency of a normal non buffed Full Thrust, I'd assume that a crit midare should round 35k and a direct crit around 40k.
So yeah... they are op.

Somehow it's kinda sad that so much of you define fun with numbers - I'll remember a thread in this forum where someone said something like "Although Mch is way bottom line I just love it" - and that's what's it all about why not just playing what you like? All this numbers made the the game more to a bloody competition than to an enjoyable entertainment... never got it, never will get it. Even the hardest content can be beaten with suboptimal comps - just play what you like not what is meta : o

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Originally Posted by Neela

Silly snip

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I'm going to play dragoon to the end of this game whether at the last expansion it deals 1dps in comparison to every other class dealing 10M or whether it is god tier.
But the fact is that lower dps, that MUCH lower dps, is a hindrance to the group and to yourself. It's about getting progressively tired, performing with more stress because you are dealing with extra stuff because of your class choice and in the end not being able to call it quit because surprise surprise gotta meet the weekly lockout to not fall behind on the patch.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

SAM is so strong that it outshines pretty much every other DPS by a large margin.

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*doesn't know that Ninja is actually the most busted DPS by a lot as they're only 200-300 DPS behind Samurai in most cases and bring WAY more raid DPS*

Yup. Checks out.

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Originally Posted by Oscura

No one complained about Black Mages at 60 because they were substantially harder to play than Samurai is. There was little to no margin for error to get good dps out of BLM. Many people I know have switched to Samurai simply because it's so easy compared to Monk. It's also far more rewarding.

Edit: Also, I do agree that other classes need buffs, rather than SAM getting nerfed. My only problem is I don't trust SE to not overbuff any classes. It's easier to nerf than buff, it's part of why you see nerfs more than buffs in most games period. AST was a good example of what goes wrong with buffing a class in the 3.x series. People shrugged off WHM.

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Difficulty is not always an objective concept. Some people might find BLM easy because they're accustomed to casters. Some people might find MNK braindead because they understand it's flow.

Also. People choose to acknowledge the more difficult notions and complexities within the BLM rotation, probably because it's more readily apparent. People choose to ignore the complex notions with SAM, probably because the community at large knows so little about them. As a subjective statement, MNK is hard to pick up, easy to maximize once learned. SAM is easy to pick up, but extremely taxing to maximize with.

Even just on the surface level. What happens when you lose a buff as MNK? Since you have branching combos, you just choose the buff you need to reapply and you're set. On SAM, you have to actively think about which Sen you have active. If you lost your speed buff, which is a part of your Flower Sen combo, but you already have the Flower Sen active, how will you avoid overlapping the Flower Sen with your buff combo? Do you complete it and waste a Sen? Or do you use Hagakure early, and waste the potential 40 Kenki from not finishing your other 2 combos? Or do you want to use your one Sen to reapply your DoT element early instead? Or maybe you want to finish activating all 3 Sen without your buff, and then Hagakure to keep your GCD rolling. Or maybe you want to finish all 3 combos without your buff, and then Midare because there's a mechanic? That's just one aspect of SAM, and it's immediately more difficult concepts than MNK has in their rotation.

As far as nerfs and buffs go... It's all within the aftermath of either, and the mindset that goes behind either action.

Buffing a Job results in restoring the current players' faith in the Job they love. It results in bringing more people to the Job. It is an indirect admission that the Job is underperforming, or otherwise unappealing, and that they want to make them more appealing.

Nerfing a Job results in almost nothing positive. You're almost always taking away one of potentially multiple 'fun', 'exciting' or 'unique' aspects of the Job (in quotes for a reason). You're taking a Job that people may have enjoyed, and lessened their enjoyment with it, unless it's a nerf that brings them up in other ways. It's almost specifically a means of making the Job less appealing, in efforts to make others... more appealing by comparison? It will result in people dropping the Job, even if it's a 'fair' nerf, because nobody wants to perform the same, but be rewarded less for it. If you nerf something, it just creates reasons to buff it in the future. 9 times out of 10, nerfing is the wrong decision.

It's not surprising they'd rather buff things. And even then, it becomes an argument of what's more important to the community. Performing at or slightly above the expected standard, and having their Job feel like it's fun, with an exciting playstyle? Or performing similar amounts of DPS as another Job, even though it's a part of said Job's identity as opposed to their own Job's identity?

Right now, at least in this thread, people are far too concerned with SAM's identity, as if it's competing with their own Job's identity. Spoilers- It's not, unless you're maybe a DRG, MNK, or BLM. And at least 1, if not 2 of those (hint: not DRG) are competing just fine.

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Originally Posted by Erys

snip

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I played noob smn in arr, aoe masterrace in hw and now the questionable sb dragon tamer. Same goes for aar the lazy Brd, burst hw monster and will lvl sb singer next. Pure boring whm without much utility in hw, now even more pure healing in sb - and I never had problems nor someone who said i would slow down the grp in any manner. Can't see the problem to be honest... people make themselves the stress of thinking it would be bad if they stick to avarage or bottom line. : /

Those cls which "suck" now will shine in another moment... always running and changing for the meta is just hmm... I saw them joining in HW, i see them leaving in SB just for being "best of the best" - sad.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

*doesn't know that Ninja is actually the most busted DPS by a lot as they're only 200-300 DPS behind Samurai in most cases and bring WAY more raid DPS*

Yup. Checks out.

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Trick Attack averages +1.67% group DPS.
On Susano, SAM is ~350 DPS higher than NIN -both without balance- (if you include Balance, the gap jumps from 350 DPS to 450. But I won't talk about that as the parses without Balance already prove my point).
For Trick Attack to fill this gap, you need 21k group DPS. This is, of course, assuming that the NIN doesn't miss any Trick Attack and assuming absolutly no downtime... Which, in reality, makes Trick Attack worse than what I said.

In short, for NIN to be at least at the level of SAM, you need a group that can do 21k DPS. It means that your whole group has to work quite hard to make up for the fact that they bring a NIN instead of a SAM which could've been fine by himself alone.

Susano needs 14k group DPS to be clearable. As of today, quite a lot of PF groups still hit enrage. So this 21k group DPS is far from being the norm.

I check my numbers. Do you?

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Originally Posted by Erys

You said it yourself. Critical hit.
If I'm not mistaken a 22k midare setsugekka should be a non crit-non direct hit midare. Since dragoon full boosted Full Thrust direct crit is 16k, and midare setsugekka without any buffs is almost double the potency of a normal non buffed Full Thrust, I'd assume that a crit midare should round 35k and a direct crit around 40k.
So yeah... they are op.

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Not true, at all. I 314 with crit/det/direct hit melds I hit midare's not crit for 15-18k. Crits put me in the 20's and harder crit are high 20s to low 30s. 40k Midare is rare. Just because someone links it in a video does not mean they happen that often. Do they happen? Yea, but not anything close to what most people believe.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

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It is not always an objective concept, that is correct. However, the consistently high numbers and constant evidence of the massive difference in DPS numbers is staggering. The fact of the matter is that if Samurai is constantly outperforming other classes, it's either really easy, or too strong. The average player can't even manage playing this game very well and I've seen players with weaker skill-sets perform well with Samurai. A BLM's difficulty has nothing to do with "being accustomed to casters," there were plenty of people who played SMN and/or healers who specifically avoided it because the skill ceiling for that class was so high in Heavensward. Also, Monk is hard to pick up and easy to maximize? I greatly disagree. Edit: (I just realized you stated that subjectively, but regardless.)

You say Samurai taxing, and your reasoning for this is...decision making? That's the hard part about it? A bunch of what-if scenarios of mostly meaningless conjecture that only happen at certain moments? The whole reason Monk is so difficult is because unlike Samurai if you lose your greased lightning stacks your damage takes a massive hit. You have to regain your stacks all over again. Right now Monk only has two buttons to properly restore their stacks, one of them being on a 60 second cooldown (which requires you to get hit AND take yourself out of DPS stance, a DPS loss) and another on a 3 minute one. You are arguing from a sheer dummy standpoint. Managing mechanics on a Monk and keeping your stacks up, while keeping your buffs up, in order to keep doing the most damaging parts of your combos, is the optimal way to play. If you keep having to constantly apply Twin Snakes and Demolish more than you're doing Snap Punch and True Strike, you're doing poorly. Being able to weave Forbidden Chakras at any point in your combo if you get lucky with crits or brotherhood, a function that purely relies on RNG. Fact of the matter is, Monk play is more reactionary, and Samurai play is based around decision-making. Like you said, the difficult is dependent on the user, but I don't really see that many strong Monk parses, do you?

The worst thing that can happen to a Samurai is that they have to decide positives and negatives. That means people who have a calmer thinking process can play it easier. A lot of people cannot play on reaction either because they're simply not good at it, or they may find it too difficult for their own reaction times. It's partially why some people play FFXIV, the GCD and combat speed is very slow in this game. Monks directly contradict that, having the fastest GCD casting in the game and having a mechanic that requires you to have as much uptime as possible. If it was so easy to master I would see far more advanced monks in any portion of this game's lifespan, and I haven't. Meanwhile I've seen more Samurai than I've ever seen Monks performing very strong DPS and high levels.

As for buffing vs nerfing, I agree with this yet again. I just don't trust Square Enix. I'm always an advocate for buffing other classes over nerfing specific ones. I just don't trust SE to do it properly. I would rather not read in a few months complaints from Samurai players about how DRG, MNK or MCH was overbuffed and they bring more utility + damage than them.

As for SAM's identity vs my job's, I couldn't care less. My only 70 class is Red Mage. I just personally think SAM is too strong compared to the other classes with very little risk involved. Nothing SAM does influences my class' position in any sort of hierarchy, and my class works well with it. I didn't like WAR in 3.0 either.

samurai will always be top dps, they threw away all and any party utility, it's what monk should of been, samurai is fine. get used to it.