Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

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Originally Posted by Llus

Healer does nothing for 80% of the fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBgMe5uHPsE&t=1040s

SCH doesn't use any DPS on this fight and dies to mechanics at around 60%, war and 2 ninjas finish the fight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp9mzOxbSJ0

So exactly what does a healer need to be doing when there's no need to heal? Watching netflix? Poking their fairy?

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Can't ask for more proof..

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Originally Posted by craized

everyone else - seeing as ive run out of posts for the day (good one SE): in conclusion - there are a lot of elitists pricks on this forum. happily they are much rarer in game.

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Oh no, you think some of us are elitist pricks because we don't want to play with lazy players ;_; How will we ever live...

Thankfully, we can easily replace people like you who want to be lazy. You're not going to stop kicks happening for lazy people.


Play as lazy as you want, but not on my time.

Edit: Just to mention, based on your idea of what an elitist is: We're all throughout the game world. We just don't mouth off in-game. Sorry to burst the bubble, but we're here. You really think a lot of strangers aren't getting slightly annoyed at their team mates who are expecting a carry? Most will "put up" with it. Doesn't mean they are happy.

Just want to reiterate that if you're healing to the best of your ability and that's all you have time for, genuinely don't have time to dps because of damage or mechanics, no one's expecting the healer to dps at that point.

The expectation begins when the party isn't taking damage and the healer is literally just standing there while the tank is topped off by a HoT or pet.

If that's elitism, then it's not going to hurt my feelings to be elite.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Just want to reiterate that if you're healing to the best of your ability and that's all you have time for, genuinely don't have time to dps because of damage or mechanics, no one's expecting the healer to dps at that point.

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When it happens, yeah. But that situation doesn't happen anywhere near as much as people like to think it does.

I've healed tanks that don't use cooldowns, I've healed DPS who think orange means "stand here". I've healed people whose gear is barely skirting the minimum ilevel, or they're actually undergeared and using accessories for a different class to get in. I've -been- the healer barely skirting by minimum ilevels, having to use NPC purchased white garbage to inflate my ilevel (dungeons were not kind to me in early HW).

I've always found time to DPS, from the day I started out playing this game as a babby CNJ at level 1, all the way to level 60 and beyond. Not necessarily as much as I can optimally put out, but there is -always- time.

Always
Be
Casting

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Originally Posted by Llus

Healer does nothing for 80% of the fight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBgMe5uHPsE&t=1040s

SCH doesn't use any DPS on this fight and dies to mechanics at around 60%, war and 2 ninjas finish the fight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp9mzOxbSJ0

So exactly what does a healer need to be doing when there's no need to heal? Watching netflix? Poking their fairy?

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The second vid is not a good example to bring to this discussion. It's very obviously a new healer. They needed mechanics explained, and there was even a bonus notification after the fight. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, your first vid was spot on, the second is just being petty expecting someone that is probably nervous to be comfortable dpsing. From the title, it was also supposed to be a vid showing off WARs self-healing, not putting down inexperienced healers.

Also as a side note. I have never had a xelphatol run go as smoothly as I saw in that first vid lmao. Congrats to them I guess, but probably 60% of the player base will not be that good at mechanics.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

The second vid is not a good example to bring to this discussion. It's very obviously a new healer. They needed mechanics explained, and there was even a bonus notification after the fight. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, your first vid was spot on, the second is just being petty expecting someone that is probably nervous to be comfortable dpsing. From the title, it was also supposed to be a vid showing off WARs self-healing, not putting down inexperienced healers.

Also as a side note. I have never had a xelphatol run go as smoothly as I saw in that first vid lmao. Congrats to them I guess, but probably 60% of the player base will not be that good at mechanics.

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The point of the second video is to show that there really isn't a huge healing burden a lot of a time. Nobody's saying anything about how the healer didn't DPS. It's about how 55% is a pretty hefty chunk to be able to burn through without needing a healer. Just like how the first video is demonstrating just how much downtime there is in many of the fights.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

The second vid is not a good example to bring to this discussion. It's very obviously a new healer. They needed mechanics explained, and there was even a bonus notification after the fight. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, your first vid was spot on, the second is just being petty expecting someone that is probably nervous to be comfortable dpsing. From the title, it was also supposed to be a vid showing off WARs self-healing, not putting down inexperienced healers.

Also as a side note. I have never had a xelphatol run go as smoothly as I saw in that first vid lmao. Congrats to them I guess, but probably 60% of the player base will not be that good at mechanics.

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Second video simply shows that for 60% of the fight there was no healing needed. Obviously the healer was new to the fight and didn't know what the mechanics were, but it still shows the small healing requirements. In the snowcloak video, the healer (if they knew the fight) could have easily DPSed the entire time and let their fairy heal only topping the party off after the AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Second video simply shows that for 60% of the fight there was no healing needed. Obviously the healer was new to the fight and didn't know what the mechanics were, but it still shows the small healing requirements. In the snowcloak video, the healer (if they knew the fight) could have easily DPSed the entire time and let their fairy heal only topping the party off after the AoEs.

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I see, my mistake then, and thank you for explaining.

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Originally Posted by IttyBitty

When it happens, yeah. But that situation doesn't happen anywhere near as much as people like to think it doe

I've always found time to DPS, from the day I started out playing this game as a babby CNJ at level 1, all the way to level 60 and beyond. Not necessarily as much as I can optimally put out, but there is -always- time.

Always
Be
Casting

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Well sorry but in my experience its the opposite. Like now in end content. Plus Im not talking about dungeons. I am talking about random goups on almost a daily basis that I heal. Do you just play with good groups or friends? Just curious.

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

The second vid is not a good example to bring to this discussion. It's very obviously a new healer. They needed mechanics explained, and there was even a bonus notification after the fight. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, your first vid was spot on, the second is just being petty expecting someone that is probably nervous to be comfortable dpsing. From the title, it was also supposed to be a vid showing off WARs self-healing, not putting down inexperienced healers.

Also as a side note. I have never had a xelphatol run go as smoothly as I saw in that first vid lmao. Congrats to them I guess, but probably 60% of the player base will not be that good at mechanics.

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Neither of them are good examples, they are both easy content these pro healer dps stances are loaded with posts trying to say that healers got nothing to do but dps. What needs to be shown is anew group learning a10s or something

Videos, eh? Ok, we can do those.

Allow me to showcase how Cleric can be so dangerous, and why a healer despite knowing the instance, can still be uncomfortable when it is with a group of randoms. And I am even going to throw myself under the boss, as I am the healer in this video. No need to even watch the whole video as the downfall happens in a very short time period of about 30 seconds, but feel free. :)

WHM PoV @ Keepers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4mQCbx6jjA

Skip to 1:00, it is right after the second boss fight. Allow me to give a quick run down:

- I buff the tank with stoneskin, and he pulls one pack of mobs, and then a second.
- I'm moving around a bit because of AoE, so I swiftcast Holy to start.
- After first Holy, tank is @60%. Good to cast another Holy right? Wrong
- I cast a second Holy, and during the cast, the tanks HP drops. I hop out of Cleric to hit him with Cure 2 and he dies (a window of 10 seconds) before I can get it off, and we wipe.

Should I have casted a cure instead of a second Holy? Why? The tank is @60%. Well above most healer's thresholds
Should I have casted Divine seal+Regen between Holys? Possibly. It might have allowed my Cure 2 to get off in time. Otherwise, the tank would have died in 11-12 seconds instead of 10.
Should the tank have popped one or more DMG mitigation CDs? They likely would have saved him.

One thing I do know without question is that if I was in full heal mode instead of trying to DPS here, there would not have been a wipe. This is what heals only healers are afraid of. Even if it is acceptable for you to encounter a wipe if everyone is at least trying to perform optimally, it might not be acceptable to the healer. We can't rely on a stranger tank to know how to use their CDs properly, we can't tackle a DPS standing in a red zone about to be take a huge hit to keep them out of it. The video shows me being a 100% reactive healer, because I have NO IDEA what these guys are going to do.

So if you want to showcase healers doing nothing, I am more than happy to do the same with a healer doing something. During the final fight with my love, Midgarsomr, I do a lot of standing around, especially when the telegraphs show up, waiting to see who dodges and who doesn't. I still managed to get squeeze some DPS in there, but not a whole lot and only when I deemed it totally safe.

Some people seriously need to take a chill pill. There is always lots of talk of how little healing is needed in expert roulette/60 dungeons, but I should remind the lot of you that not everyone is doing those, so we can't set the standard based on a small group of overall dungeons where everyone is ridiculously powerful, and hopefully aware.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Neither of them are good examples, they are both easy content these pro healer dps stances are loaded with posts trying to say that healers got nothing to do but dps. What needs to be shown is anew group learning a10s or something

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You do realise the examples have a case of the healer being alive and a case of the healer being dead, right? Unless you consider a dead healer "pro"

No, Healer is not about doing heals and damage. By that line of thought I could run a SMN or a BLM with Physick as cross-skill and claim I'm a healer. I can heal with Physick and do damage so, ¿why can't I be healer with that? Because my party can't survive with that unless we talk about easy stuf. That's the only thing that makes a healer be a healer. The only one. Because summoners can't make a party get through Nidhogg's Ahk Morn. SCH, WHM and AST can. The capability to make a party survive.

In high-end content, most of you can easily toggle between healing and attacking because most of you already know the mechanics and you assume everyone else, only-healers included, do so. But that's not true. If anything, the absolute majority on only-healers are first-timers who can't risk themselves to pull Cleric when the healing is needed. Not because they're lazy bums. And it's best this way since a healer with cleric at the worst time can cause wipe and make the team lose more time than with a healer that only casts heals.

And before replying, I ALWAYS jump to cleric stance whenever I see healing is not required. So if you're going to point fingers at me, stick them somewhere else. Your noise , maybe. But I don't fall in the damn delusion you do. If I do DPS, is because healer is completely irrelevant in 80% of the content but I don't play to admire my thumbs (though I prefer to take over the raid healing and have the other healer stay in cleric most of the time). It's as simple as that. Healers are rarely needed except for filling the party requirement, specific phase in specific instances (e. g. Nidhogg) or really clueless party for the solely reason that said 80% is plain braindead. You could go with just 3 persons and have many dungeons done. Many trials need only 1 healer to heal. If Healer is DPSing is because the role is not needed at all in many parts and the "healer " has to fill the gap somehow, and the only way they can make something useful is just DPSing. Even without Cleric Stance, or without spells like Holy they will do that.

Not because it's their role, but because they need to do something since running a dungeon looking at your thumbs is NOT fun. And because, regardless of the role, party members are supposed to do SOMETHING, even if it's not really related to the role.

And if you think being only-healer is being lazy is because you didn't see what I saw: half-assed heals healer. Healers that only use Cure/Physick and they're annoyed if they have to heal anything that isn't the tank and in an easy dungeon like Toto-Rak. THAT's being lazy. Not being on a healing only stance on a A12 run.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Videos, eh? Ok, we can do those.

Allow me to showcase how Cleric can be so dangerous

WHM PoV @ Keepers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4mQCbx6jjA

Skip to 1:00, it is right after the second boss fight. Allow me to give a quick run down:




Some people seriously need to take a chill pill. There is always lots of talk of how little healing is needed in expert roulette/60 dungeons, but I should remind the lot of you that not everyone is doing those, so we can't set the standard based on a small group of overall dungeons where everyone is ridiculously powerful, and hopefully aware.

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This is a good post and much more representative of what can happen and happens all the time. Uncalled for and unwarranted stress put on healers. and in reply to Boko above, its so easy that we could force the summoner to heal because its in their tool kit so SE must have meant them to use it right?

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You do realise the examples have a case of the healer being alive and a case of the healer being dead, right? Unless you consider a dead healer "pro"

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Think you misunderstood. Pro healer dps stance of the discussion meaning in favour of dps. And the fact the healer is dead shows even more of abiased view that healers got nothing to do

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Originally Posted by SeriousxSarcasm

I see, my mistake then, and thank you for explaining.

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No problem. The second video wasn't meant to be a joke on healers new to a piece of content - that kind of thing happens and is expected. The other players should have informed the new healer about the mechanics or at least asked if they had questions.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Videos, eh? Ok, we can do those.

Allow me to showcase how Cleric can be so dangerous, and why a healer despite knowing the instance, can still be uncomfortable when it is with a group of randoms. And I am even going to throw myself under the boss, as I am the healer in this video. No need to even watch the whole video as the downfall happens in a very short time period of about 30 seconds, but feel free. :)

WHM PoV @ Keepers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4mQCbx6jjA

Skip to 1:00, it is right after the second boss fight. Allow me to give a quick run down:

- I buff the tank with stoneskin, and he pulls one pack of mobs, and then a second.
- I'm moving around a bit because of AoE, so I swiftcast Holy to start.
- After first Holy, tank is @60%. Good to cast another Holy right? Wrong
- I cast a second Holy, and during the cast, the tanks HP drops. I hop out of Cleric to hit him with Cure 2 and he dies (a window of 10 seconds) before I can get it off, and we wipe.

Should I have casted a cure instead of a second Holy? Why? The tank is @60%. Well above most healer's thresholds
Should I have casted Divine seal+Regen between Holys? Possibly. It might have allowed my Cure 2 to get off in time. Otherwise, the tank would have died in 11-12 seconds instead of 10.
Should the tank have popped one or more DMG mitigation CDs? They likely would have saved him.

One thing I do know without question is that if I was in full heal mode instead of trying to DPS here, there would not have been a wipe. This is what heals only healers are afraid of. Even if it is acceptable for you to encounter a wipe if everyone is at least trying to perform optimally, it might not be acceptable to the healer. We can't rely on a stranger tank to know how to use their CDs properly, we can't tackle a DPS standing in a red zone about to be take a huge hit to keep them out of it. The video shows me being a 100% reactive healer, because I have NO IDEA what these guys are going to do.

So if you want to showcase healers doing nothing, I am more than happy to do the same with a healer doing something. During the final fight with my love, Midgarsomr, I do a lot of standing around, especially when the telegraphs show up, waiting to see who dodges and who doesn't. I still managed to get squeeze some DPS in there, but not a whole lot and only when I deemed it totally safe.

Some people seriously need to take a chill pill. There is always lots of talk of how little healing is needed in expert roulette/60 dungeons, but I should remind the lot of you that not everyone is doing those, so we can't set the standard based on a small group of overall dungeons where everyone is ridiculously powerful, and hopefully aware.

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And you still stance danced the entire time, contributed to DPS, kept the party up, cleansed debuffs and overall did a pretty good job even if you were holding back to be safe and didn't maximize your DPS and had a ton of over-healing because of DPS getting thwapped. You'd have gotten my com for that. So you made a mistake during the pull leading up to the boss and it caused a wipe, it happens and I don't recall seeing anyone gripe at you about it. If I were the tank there I wouldn't have cared, you tried and you messed up.

Healers that DPS are better is just that simple...why will you not want to be better?

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This is a good post and much more representative of what can happen and happens all the time. Uncalled for and unwarranted stress put on healers. and in reply to Boko above, its so easy that we could force the summoner to heal because its in their tool kit so SE must have meant them to use it right?

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If a fairy can do all the heal in many instances with just Embrace, why not a SMN with Physick (and bonus point on MND because reasons)? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

/irony off

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Originally Posted by Feyona

Neither of them are good examples, they are both easy content these pro healer dps stances are loaded with posts trying to say that healers got nothing to do but dps. What needs to be shown is a new group learning a10s or something

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I wouldn't expect a new group learning a10s or any other savage content to be 100%... I wouldn't expect the tanks to know the fight well enough not to die to tankbusters. I wouldn't expect DPS to not die to mechanics and I wouldn't expect a healer to know when they can DPS and when they need to heal. If the entire content of your OP is to allow you room to learn a fight before optimizing for healing and DPS; then by all means do so.

However...

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This topic is not new, but in light of the proposed changes, like two more dps classes which all the dps has to choose from, could we now leave healers alone to play as healers, and those who want to dps, dps? Thinking that many people would like to heal as a chosen playstyle. The feedback I have received before is that its not playing to 'optimal efficiency', but this is not a workplace it is where people come to enjoy themselves, not be coerced into doing a role that they didnt choose- dps as healer. Most dps did not choose to heal, and have a monopoly of different playstyles to choose from, on the other hand healers are being made to dps, to sort of make up for dps defiency, Then I see a question asking for harder content, just stop healer dps and the content will be harder to clear. Healers that want to dps go dps, leave others to heal or tank if thats what they enjoy.

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From your OP, all you say is that you want to heal only and be left alone to do just that. Heal only, no DPS because that's what you enjoy. You don't qualify that with the type of content you find uncomfortable switching to cleric stance; nor do you bring up savage content/extreme primals/learning. You say that you're being coerced into doing a role that you didn't chose, yet in this game - that IS the healer role and especially for Scholars. Healers heal, shield, cleanse and DPS. Tanks take and hold aggro, mitigate damage, self-heal and DPS. DPS deal damage, support the party through buffs like mages ballad, foe requiem, mantra, apocatastasis, smoke screen, trick attack, battle litany etc. And if you're looking to clear savage content and extreme primals as a Scholar that doesn't DPS; there's almost NO group that will have you.

Ppl get too hung up on labels. Just because your roll is named "healer" doesn't mean you can cast a heal here and there and stand there doing nothing for 5 minutes. Just like being a "Tank" shouldn't mean you shouldn't jump into dps stance now and then or DPS doesn't mean you shouldn't raise or buff the pt in some way.

In the end they are just labels and the function of a job should depend on its skill set

that last part of keeper of the lake is suicide to dps healers until they understand what to do, ive both failed it and pulled it off perfectcly. You never go to clerics if the pull is too heavy. First thing i noticed is "why are dps dead alread....oh shi everyone wiped" I appreciate the video but its happened to us all. Like a tank, if you dont know what to expect, you cant just dps swap the fight. and if dps are dead, thats a lkonger time before mobs are dead.

ALSO before you go blaming yourself on the video go watch it again guess what the tank didnt pop once? thats right a cooldown. It wasnt your fault to begin with.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

that last part of keeper of the lake is suicide to dps healers until they understand what to do, ive both failed it and pulled it off perfectcly. You never go to clerics if the pull is too heavy. First thing i noticed is "why are dps dead alread....oh shi everyone wiped" I appreciate the video but its happened to us all. Like a tank, if you dont know what to expect, you cant just dps swap the fight. and if dps are dead, thats a lkonger time before mobs are dead.

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The healer in that video was experienced with the fight though. The healer made a mistake by casting a second holy instead of topping off the tank; but the tank is really the one to blame here because he had no mitigation up the entire time; didn't self-heal and didn't get a holmgang off when he saw he was in trouble. The healer COULD have helped out with a regen before the pull; but that wasn't necessary - even a bloodbath would have kept the tank up long enough for the cure 2 to go off.

/edit - just saw your edit including the tank fail

You're right, the healer shouldn't be blaming themselves for that fail. The tank was ultimately the one missing key mechanics here (read: mitigate damage during large pulls)

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Originally Posted by Llus

The healer in that video was experienced with the fight though. The healer made a mistake by casting a second holy instead of topping off the tank; but the tank is really the one to blame here because he had no mitigation up the entire time; didn't self-heal and didn't get a holmgang off when he saw he was in trouble. The healer COULD have helped out with a regen before the pull; but that wasn't necessary - even a bloodbath would have kept the tank up long enough for the cure 2 to go off.

/edit - just saw your edit including the tank fail

You're right, the healer shouldn't be blaming themselves for that fail. The tank was ultimately the one missing key mechanics here (read: mitigate damage during large pulls)

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The TANK didnt pop holmgang. or anything. This is a case where if a healer gets yelled at, it isnt their fault. Of course seeing the dps get rekt(most likely tanks fault again) doesnt change the fact that the dude flat out didnt even bother to pop a foresiht to stay alive longer. This isnt the healer so much as the tank not giving a crap.

And I'm not even a great tank, but id never run into double mobs without popping some kind of cooldown to help mitigate the pull.
Of course this can be used as an example that dps can sort of cause a wipe but it also shows that tanks not doing what they should will cause a wipe too...theres no doubt the argument was made, but the healer here shouldnt feel shame for the sheer fact that they werent the only one that miscalculated, there was a total group miscalculation going on, not just the healer. And thats how most wipes happen.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

The TANK didnt pop holmgang. or anything. This is a case where if a healer gets yelled at, it isnt their fault. Of course seeing the dps get rekt(most likely tanks fault again) doesnt change the fact that the dude flat out didnt even bother to pop a foresiht to stay alive longer. This isnt the healer so much as the tank not giving a crap.

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I agree. The healer played that as I would have expected any WHM. Personally, I would have had at least a bloodbath up and berserk with some overpowers for self healing while the WHM got some free DPS time before swapping back to get a cure 2 out or even a medica 2

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Originally Posted by Llus

I agree. The healer played that as I would have expected any WHM. Personally, I would have had at least a bloodbath up and berserk with some overpowers for self healing while the WHM got some free DPS time before swapping back to get a cure 2 out or even a medica 2

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YES I totally agree with you, that may be my last resort for WAR tanking but thats totally what id have done as well! Honestly wipes happen sometimes groups mess up, this healer shouldnt take the blame, like i said the group miscalculated severely it wasnt one single person.

With the mindset of people, "Getting kicked for playing the way they want". Its no surprise that the que for tank and healer is so long. Until people just let people play the way they want and not judge someone else then this will never change.

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Originally Posted by Llus

And you still stance danced the entire time, contributed to DPS, kept the party up, cleansed debuffs and overall did a pretty good job even if you were holding back to be safe and didn't maximize your DPS and had a ton of over-healing because of DPS getting thwapped. You'd have gotten my com for that. So you made a mistake during the pull leading up to the boss and it caused a wipe, it happens and I don't recall seeing anyone gripe at you about it. If I were the tank there I wouldn't have cared, you tried and you messed up.

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Thank you! I do try :)

Though I hope the video can encourage healers to stance dance, I wanted to show how unpredictable damage can be. I don't condone healers to just stand around, being reactive only, but I also do understand just how quickly things can go from green, to red, to dead and it's just a story mode dungeon and what many would refer to as "brain dead" or "faceroll" content. For me optimal play is appreciated, but not required. If everyone can do the basics, generally stay out of the bad, and exhibit patience, I am a happy camper. Though I do like it when the ish hits the fan, and I get to enter healzerk mode :p

Do western players do literally nothing but argue? And the same thing in circles no less.

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Originally Posted by Llus

The healer in that video was experienced with the fight though. The healer made a mistake by casting a second holy instead of topping off the tank; but the tank is really the one to blame here because he had no mitigation up the entire time; didn't self-heal and didn't get a holmgang off when he saw he was in trouble. The healer COULD have helped out with a regen before the pull; but that wasn't necessary - even a bloodbath would have kept the tank up long enough for the cure 2 to go off.

/edit - just saw your edit including the tank fail

You're right, the healer shouldn't be blaming themselves for that fail. The tank was ultimately the one missing key mechanics here (read: mitigate damage during large pulls)

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I still blame myself though for that wipe. All because I know I should have cast regen, and shouldn't have cast that second Holy. You can even notice a slight hesitation to cast it, because I just had a 'feeling'. I was just waiting for the barks, but surprisingly to me, they never came. I wanted to apologize, but at that current moment I was silenced by shame. I dunno, I get that the tank should have popped their CDs. I even wanted to say it to him. But his mentor icon kind of held me back. I could have prevented it.

I think ultimately this thread boils down to:


I picked a class with the highest visibility for even minor mistakes (any healer class) and often take the blame for a party wipe and blame myself for the party wipe too. I'm afraid to step outside the typical role of a healer because of this; so can I just heal please? Honestly, I understand and sympathize with you; but I can't sympathize with you if all you do is overheal or spend 70-80% of the time doing nothing. Especially if you're a level 60 healer that should have learned stance dancing by the time you got to level 40. If you're new to the content and want to avoid a party wipe by just healing i understand that as well and provide for that. But a 100% only heal healer to me is as bad as a 100% tank stance tank (worse, because at least the tank stance tank is doing damage). You need to learn how to stance dance whether you're healing or tanking and the earlier you learn how and get those mistakes out of the way; the better you'll be in end-game. For new healers reading this thread, you're going to be shit on because your role has a microscope showing your mistakes. You're going to make mistakes too; tanks and DPS will make mistakes; but a healer that makes a mistake nearly always wipes the party. If someone gives you a lot of grief for that while you're learning, report them. If you aren't learning how to stance dance; you're limiting yourself to running everything over-geared and doing content that is fairly simple. If the prospect of that much pressure scares you, you'll need to overcome that fear or chose a different role because the role of a healer is arguably the most difficult one in this game. You are expected to heal, to shield and to DPS

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This is true that is why it can be viewed as coercion to dps. Btw not saying I dont dps as healer only that some may prefer it not to be made compulsary. I dps but prefer to heal, maybe other people do as well

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My healer calls me out if I don't dodge. I feel, effectively, coerced to heal for them.

tl;dr: Whatever your role, the job is the same: Keep. Doing. Things. (Ideally, with the most output for the time you're using them.)

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I still blame myself though for that wipe. All because I know I should have cast regen, and shouldn't have cast that second Holy. You can even notice a slight hesitation to cast it, because I just had a 'feeling'. I was just waiting for the barks, but surprisingly to me, they never came. I wanted to apologize, but at that current moment I was silenced by shame. I dunno, I get that the tank should have popped their CDs. I even wanted to say it to him. But his mentor icon kind of held me back. I could have prevented it.

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I hear this often from healers. They blame themselves for a party wipe even when they know someone else was responsible. Usually it's "if only i'd done this instead of that, we would have survived". Just because someone is wearing a mentor icon, doesn't mean they're good at the role they're playing - the WAR should have known better. We have no active mitigation in tank stance and even though we have a large health pool; that doesn't justify pulling 6+ mobs w/o mitigation. I have SCH and WHM at level 60 and I refuse to heal. Healing is way too stressful and even minor mistakes are glaring mistakes both in your own eyes and in the eyes of your party members. At some point though, you have to stop blaming yourself and realize that when trying to play to your full potential; you're going to make mistakes (in ANY role) and that you should try to shrug it off and keep going.

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Originally Posted by Llus

I wouldn't expect a new group learning a10s or any other savage content to be 100%... I wouldn't expect the tanks to know the fight well enough not to die to tankbusters. I wouldn't expect DPS to not die to mechanics and I wouldn't expect a healer to know when they can DPS and when they need to heal. If the entire content of your OP is to allow you room to learn a fight before optimizing for healing and DPS; then by all means do so.

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You contradicted yoursef. Firstly, you say a healers role is to dps and heal, but not in that content I mentioned. So which content am I a dps healer and which content arnt I ? And how is the comunity going to know which is which ? They will expect it in all content wont they? New content, savage, primals, whatever.So this is the point of my entire post, not what you put in your post that patronizingly sums up my mindset, thank you very much but you are wrong. And to Shurrikan, everyone knows when you have time right? Well, according to these posts Im going to be kicked for not dpsing if I dont have time

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You contradicted yoursef. Firstly, you say a healers role is to dps and heal, but not in that content I mentioned. So which content am I a dps healer and which content aren't I?

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You are when you have time to be. You are not when you do not have time to be.

If you will have mana enough over the course of the fight to use a stronger heal, allowing yourself time to DPS, you should do that, and then you should DPS in the time you gained yourself, especially when that GCD would be worth more than others (a Bio II, rather than a Boil).

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You contradicted yoursef. Firstly, you say a healers role is to dps and heal, but not in that content I mentioned. So which content am I a dps healer and which content arnt I ? And how is the comunity going to know which is which ? They will expect it in all content wont they? New content, savage, primals, whatever.So this is the point of my entire post, not what you put in your post that patronizingly sums up my mindset, thank you very much but you are wrong.

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You should be DPSing in all content whenever you are not required to heal. There is no content in this entire game-- Savage included-- where you will not have any downtime to at least throw up dots. The sole exception is progression. If you are new to something and announce it, people are far less judgmental since they aren't expecting you to know the fight. That being said, if you start seeing yourself standing around or topping people off despite them taking minimal damage, you aren't playing healer well if you don't correct that on future attempts. Whether the group you get cares or not will always been a crap shoot but I fail to see why the inclusion of two new DPS changes the DPS healer philosophy. From my own perspective, if I notice my co-healer not putting on Cleric, I go into full DPS mode. What tends to irk me is when the "I only want to heal!" healers suddenly can't handle that responsibly whereas the more versatile ones can go full healer mode and need very little assistance if any at all. Perhaps I am wrong to assume but it does make me question whether they want to heal or just want an excuse to do less work.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

Do western players do literally nothing but argue? And the same thing in circles no less.

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Yeah it's the best. That's why I always come to the healer forums when I need a quick laugh. The dps and tank forums aren't quite as funny unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

You contradicted yoursef. Firstly, you say a healers role is to dps and heal, but not in that content I mentioned. So which content am I a dps healer and which content arnt I ? And how is the comunity going to know which is which ? They will expect it in all content wont they? New content, savage, primals, whatever.So this is the point of my entire post, not what you put in your post that patronizingly sums up my mindset, thank you very much but you are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Feyona

This topic is not new, but in light of the proposed changes, like two more dps classes which all the dps has to choose from, could we now leave healers alone to play as healers, and those who want to dps, dps? Thinking that many people would like to heal as a chosen playstyle. The feedback I have received before is that its not playing to 'optimal efficiency', but this is not a workplace it is where people come to enjoy themselves, not be coerced into doing a role that they didnt choose- dps as healer. Most dps did not choose to heal, and have a monopoly of different playstyles to choose from, on the other hand healers are being made to dps, to sort of make up for dps defiency, Then I see a question asking for harder content, just stop healer dps and the content will be harder to clear. Healers that want to dps go dps,leave others to heal or tank if thats what they enjoy.

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Again, I refer you to your OP. The entirety of your post can be summed up as follows: "Since there are going to be more DPS classes to choose from, can I be a heal-only healer?" And to sum up the responses: Absolutely, but don't expect people to carry you through ANY content. When you are learning content, you can expect people to make allowances; but if you are spending the majority of the time simply overhealing to look busy or standing around doing nothing expect people to get upset about it. If you chose to be a healer because you thought it would be an easy and lazy job; you chose the wrong job.

Moving the Goalposts 101: The Thread: The Movie: The Game.