CNJ = WHM and THM = BLM

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Originally Posted by Coglin

He will have difficult time convincing anyone that "death" and "terrifying destrction" are unbecomming of a black mage.

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I never said that... and as this clearly shows you don't read, don't worry, I won't wasting anymore of my time or yours replying to your opinions in this particular thread.

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Congratulation, you win the prize for most selfish comment in the Forum. Try thinking about the New Players who are the only hope of this game surviving. I'm pretty sure they want there chosen Class' back story to make sense..

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I dont see the point, atleast the so called "New Players"
(that are about to come play) will atleast know from start
wich to pick, unlike the current players wich have been
confused about this since the news about Whm & Blm.

And why thank you for calling me selfish, cuz thats exactly what i am.

Not my problem that people that been playing since
beta havent bothered level their classes is it?

I dont see the point about bitching about what class gets what job,
when players that are playing right now can play / level w/e they want
for free until end of month.

Oh ya...it's been like this for a year now, Start leveling it's as simple as that.

New Players...only hope for this game surviving?...what utter bullsh!t.
The only reason this Game is still alive is because of the currently playing fanbase,
not the poor "New Players".

I can't help but chuckle at all the posts complaining that old players are blind sided by this news and that they had no clue which job would match which class. I'm pretty sure the forum has been trying to forewarn such nonbelievers since the announcement. I thought maybe once the news was confirmed we could move on and put this frivolous contention past us, but I guess some people just can't let poor arguments die.

^this. how much time this drama should continue ? It was already oblius. It's officially confirmed. Probably in the next patch elemental nukes will be moved out, and no cry can stop it. Deal with it and if you love blm start exping thm

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

^this. how much time this drama should continue ? It was already oblius. It's officially confirmed. Probably in the next patch elemental nukes will be moved out, and no cry can stop it. Deal with it and if you love blm start exping thm

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This is the only thing that worries me. Currently, every class can solo with its own spells/abilities, and it's intended this way. If they change this around, you'd better be damn sure that we get some sort of compensation. It doesn't affect me right now, since I maxed it out, but it would affect new players, and that would suck.

they can always move banish and/or scourge to cnj. In ffxi whm had banish and holy like nukes, that can work

I can't wait for the notes on ability relocations for thaumaturge and conjurer so we can stop arguing about what class is what job and start arguing about what job gets what spells.

They could also make it so BLM has access to all of CON's nukes without any downside, and give THM Profundity. It's already been stated that PLD requires that you have both GLA to 30 and MRD to 15. You will likely need THM to 30 and CON to 15 for BLM. That would give you all the nuke spells you need. And more than likely, BLM will be getting some of its own magic potency+ abilities that blow anything CON could to do out of the water.

They may not need to switch abilities around all that much. But I do see a Buff coming for THM's nuking ability.

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I can't wait for the notes on ability relocations for thaumaturge and conjurer so we can stop arguing about what class is what job and start arguing about what job gets what spells.

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We already know what class gets what job. Some people are just really angry because they guessed wrong.

I'm a little disappointed too about the CON=WHM. I was thinking the jobs would be more like an "augment" of sorts. For THM, it can't AoE cure spells, but with WHM, it could. As well as gaining some of the important spells an abilities a WHM would have.(Not to mention THM AoE is soooooooo much better for buffing. Nobody wants to stand in a tiny circle) And for CON, it already makes a pretty darn excellent nuker in my eyes - but it does lack some firepower without using Profundity and Blood Rite. But nothing is better than knowing / finding out what the mobs are weak too and watching how much more they damage the mob^^

Honestly though, CON should have been able to turn into both WHM and BLM... leaving something like Time Mage or Green mage for THM (I play THM as a healer / debuffer mainly)

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Originally Posted by Alkoun

I can't wait for the notes on ability relocations for thaumaturge and conjurer so we can stop arguing about what class is what job and start arguing about what job gets what spells.

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Nobody is arguing about what class is what job. We all already know this.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

No, but Black Magic has always been linked to death and doom type spells, which is why they're always referred to as 'Dark Arts'. It wasn't always in the player's hands, but story wise, it's always a type of sorcerer/sorceress that was modeled after the typical Black Mage, which in generalized terms, they deal in dark arts and not so much as light arts (curative magic.)

This is why in job based FFs that followed a story Dark Knights and Black Mages were always the more feared. Even though comparatively speaking Blue Mage's fell magic is even darker than black magic, it's hard to deny that Black Mage is linked to Death.

Necromancy is another art that's more heavily linked to Death than Black Magic is, if you're taking the 'Death' thing literally.

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Actually, Doom spells are more often associated with Blue Magic than Black in Final Fantasy lore, according to the guys at the Final Fantasy wiki who religiously track this sort of thing.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Doom_%28Status%29

Also, I'd like to point out that Thaumaturges have no death or doom spells. Just saying.

Maaaan... Learn to read god damnit!

http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/game...rysystem/magic

Back in the OLD days, when THM could AoE heal, and did less dmg than CNJ, while groups prefered THM healers...
AND how Tanaka originally designed that BLM AF armor to go to CNJ... it's only understandable people would assume Yoshida woulda kept the same AF with the same class. And in turn, same Job with those classes.

The ONLY reason people really think of THM as the DD, and maybe even Yoshida (before THM was raised in DD stats) was because it had debuffs, to equal out CNJs buff.
EDIT: I should have explained this is merely an opinion, and might not have had any influence on peoples'/yoshida's opinion of the matter.


A decision that could have gone Either way.

In all honesty, if THM had gotten the buffs, I think even Yoshida woulda made THM into WHM.

Over all, CNJ was originally intended to be a Wizard like class, and THM was meant to be the Cleric of the game.

Enough people in this thread have said these things to some degree, but I'll say it again, As I still see people arguing over this.

Yes it was Stupid of SE, and yes it was obvious THM was getting BLM. (anyone who didn't see it coming after the updates, were in denial.)

Both classes were intended to heal and DD.
You can find reasons why both have heals or damage, or stories of either.
BECAUSE THEY WERE MEANT TO HAVE BOTH.

Claire Pendragon, you are being fairly presumptious to tell us what the devs "intended" CoN and THM to be. Which foolishly assuming things like that is what got everyone flustered and excited in the first place.

Secondly, I feel your assumtion are off base and incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Exni

[Comment deleted by Moderator] Death does not relate to BLM lore, and in fact would relate more to the aspect of WHM lore, obviously.. Terrifying destruction?... Really?... You are using an analogy that can be used to describe practically any high damage dealing class/mob/npc to prove your "point" now?.. OK.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

I dunno, But he may twist it all he likes. He will have difficult time convincing anyone that "death" and "terrifying destrction" are unbecomming of a black mage. I think the general population would agree that those two terms define a black mage rather accurately.

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Originally Posted by Exni

I never said that... and as this clearly shows you don't read, don't worry, I won't wasting anymore of my time or yours replying to your opinions in this particular thread.

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So yes, you did say that. You were very specific and difinitive about it.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Claire Pendragon, you are being fairly presumptious to tell us what the devs "intended" CoN and THM to be. Which foolishly assuming things like that is what got everyone flustered and excited in the first place.

Secondly, I feel your assumtion are off base and incorrect.

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Well, Not that you are wrong, but why would you assume the answer I gave is wrong?
Putting myself in their shoes, this seems most logical.
If I am missing anything, please explain.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Well, Not that you are wrong, but why would you assume the answer I gave is wrong?
Putting myself in their shoes, this seems most logical.
If I am missing anything, please explain.

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Ignore him. He looooves to think everyone wants to fight with him.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Well, Not that you are wrong, but why would you assume the answer I gave is wrong?
Putting myself in their shoes, this seems most logical.
If I am missing anything, please explain.

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I never said I "assume" the answer you gave is wrong, I said I feel it is off base. Mostly because I personally feel they did not intend THM to be played so strongly as a healer, but mainly I don't feel they gave CON shell/protect/cure, with intentions for it to be wizardly. Just my personal opinion. Its all just conjecture either way though.

My point in general though was that people made assumptions similar to yours, and clung to them so hard, that they seem heartbroken enough on the issue to argue for days that they were justified in there incorrect assumptions.

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AND how Tanaka originally designed that BLM AF armor to go to CNJ... it's only understandable people would assume Yoshida woulda kept the same AF with the same class. And in turn, same Job with those classes.

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Tanka never had any Af planed for CON nor any jobs, CON was gonna be the same con you have now, that is why the game was in the state it was. Also Yoshi -P and the new team if you can call it that made the BLM armor.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Tanka never had any Af planed for CON nor any jobs, CON was gonna be the same con you have now, that is why the game was in the state it was. Also Yoshi -P and the new team if you can call it that made the BLM armor.

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Pretty much, since according to many, FFXI is the devil which is why Tanaka originally tried to make XIV as different from XI (or any FF) as possible, this includes not making "AF gear" and even then, under the original system people would be able to wear 'BLM AF' as a Maurader -- You'd have no benefit but you'd be able to wear it.

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Originally Posted by Jennestia

Pretty much, since according to many, FFXI is the devil which is why Tanaka originally tried to make XIV as different from XI (or any FF) as possible, this includes not making "AF gear" and even then, under the original system people would be able to wear 'BLM AF' as a Maurader -- You'd have no benefit but you'd be able to wear it.

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*sigh*

No, that's not right at all. I have a quote from your own site that contradicts this.

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Q4: Will the artifact story line quests return for each class from FFXI? If not, will similar quest lines carry on a system of “right of passage” such as limit break quests?

A: Character development along the lines of the Armoury system and skill levels will incorporate familiar concepts from FFXI as well as entirely new elements.

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Follow-Up Answers from the interview with FFXIV Producer Hiromichi Tanaka (Oct. 5, 2009)

Questions were asked by Zyuu and answered by Hiromichi Tanaka.

So I wonder if Black Mage and White Mage will keep the AoE quirks from their corresponding classes.

It would be interesting to see if CON -> WHM these 2 get Holy spells...and Healing Spells become Undead Attack spells...don't discount that potential fact.

And they've already prepped everyone that CON is healer and THM is Nuker....currently no elemental spell from conjurer even comes close to THM Shadowsear.

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Originally Posted by Denmo

They could also make it so BLM has access to all of CON's nukes without any downside, and give THM Profundity. It's already been stated that PLD requires that you have both GLA to 30 and MRD to 15. You will likely need THM to 30 and CON to 15 for BLM. That would give you all the nuke spells you need. And more than likely, BLM will be getting some of its own magic potency+ abilities that blow anything CON could to do out of the water.

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And maybe WHM will then require the opposite; 30 CON and 15 THM, which will somehow balance it out.

Though for me THM still look more like a healer class, simply because they wear robes with hoods that remind of clerics while CON wear typical FF BLM clothes - that's what they show on their own website, so idk

What people are fogetting is that SE can do anything with the quests, how about for the BLM unlock quest "You must go to the Conjurer's guild in Gridania to learn the ways of the conjurer", then "You must go to the the THM guld in order to purge all white magic", just a little somthing I came up with on the spot, but they can do anything to give THM elemental nukes and AM.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

So yes, you did say that. You were very specific and difinitive about it.

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Thanks for copying it and proving my point. I said death doesn't relate to their LORE, and terrifying destruction can relate to many, many things. But I don't expect you to understand this, we already established that..

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

*sigh*

No, that's not right at all. I have a quote from your own site that contradicts this.


Follow-Up Answers from the interview with FFXIV Producer Hiromichi Tanaka (Oct. 5, 2009)

Questions were asked by Zyuu and answered by Hiromichi Tanaka.

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Thanks for finding that.
Personally hate discussions where I have to go find the old interviews.

Reminds me of when ppl asked about TH for THF in XI for years, despite the questions being answered multiple times. (And other similar issues of course.)

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Originally Posted by Agoven

It would be interesting to see if CON -> WHM these 2 get Holy spells...and Healing Spells become Undead Attack spells...don't discount that potential fact.

And they've already prepped everyone that CON is healer and THM is Nuker....currently no elemental spell from conjurer even comes close to THM Shadowsear.

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This is a good example of how a lot of people are fundamentally misunderstanding how the job system is setup.

A class unlocks a job, but it is not a version of the job it unlocks. A conjurer is not a healer. A conjurer is not a non-party variant of a white mage. A conjurer is a conjurer - a disciple of magic who specializes in harnessing the elements and a repertoire of support spells. A conjurer only has two links to white mages. It unlocks the white mage class and the experience from white mage trickles down to it. That's it.

Please repair mages naoki is a shame they do not harm, do not understand how magicians have been able to do so badly, I hope soon that mages have always been hope that the BLM can do any damage you have to do, have made ​​many mistakes with the mages 2 classes is stupid, and abilities, BLM has been always the most damage in a final fantasy,i hope change with mages news,now lancer and others more damage,please repair class

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

This is a good example of how a lot of people are fundamentally misunderstanding how the job system is setup.

A class unlocks a job, but it is not a version of the job it unlocks. A conjurer is not a healer. A conjurer is not a non-party variant of a white mage. A conjurer is a conjurer - a disciple of magic who specializes in harnessing the elements and a repertoire of support spells. A conjurer only has to links to white mages. It unlocks the white mage class and the experience from white mage trickles down to it. That's it.

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This basically.

It's also amazing that people keep forgetting that classes aren't going the way of the dodo once jobs are introduced. You want to keep being all about max ranged DPS and say no to support jobs? You can always stick to Archer. Want to keep your elemental spells(which seem to be the only thing tying Conjurer to Black Mage)? Then just stick with Conjurer.

This isn't the huge deal people seem to be making it out to be.

That silent library is too hilarious. its like a guilty pleasure...

Hey guys! I wanted to pass along a couple of posts from Yoshida regarding the upcoming class adjustment schedule.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Hi, this is Yoshida, the producer/director.

We are currently finalizing the text of the next update. I will confirm the adjustments made over the weekend. We will be making some more adjustments tomorrow, and once translation is complete we will reveal the class revamp concepts and specs. Following that we will be announcing the new abilities, actions and traits for each class. Please hang on a little bit longer!

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Originally Posted by pub

As a result of class revamps, it may be possible that something that you leveled a certain class to attain is moved to a different class. Do you plan on preparing a bail-out for these cases?

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Our next class revamps will not alter the fundamentals of each class.

As such, some details will be changed, but there will not be any major changes for classes.

Of course, if there are many demands for change after we release the details of the class revamps, we will look into those demands.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

Our next class revamps will not alter the fundamentals of each class.

As such, some details will be changed, but there will not be any major changes for classes.

Of course, if there are many demands for change after we release the details of the class revamps, we will look into those demands.

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I'm not sure how to react to this. I would say nukes are a fundamental aspect of CNJ and are NOT a fundamental aspect of THM. So is he saying THM will not get the nukes? Will BLM be reduced to a debuff class and elemental nukes will just go unused since melee will be screaming "Stop casting Fire II and HEAL!!!1!!"?

Please tell me I misunderstand the implications of this.

Classes are the versatile part of XIV. Jobs aren't.

Classes won't be shoehorned into one role. At worst, one role might be slightly emphasized.

In fact, I guess that these changes have little to do with altering class roles and everything to do about how the actions function in gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

Classes are the versatile part of XIV. Jobs aren't.

Classes won't be shoehorned into one role. At worst, one role might be slightly emphasized.

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and Jobs are intended for a party setting with singular specialized role and classes are more geared for solo.

At this point, we will just have to wait and see the changes that are coming. Yoshi is great at surprising us.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I'm not sure how to react to this. I would say nukes are a fundamental aspect of CNJ and are NOT a fundamental aspect of THM. So is he saying THM will not get the nukes? Will BLM be reduced to a debuff class and elemental nukes will just go unused since melee will be screaming "Stop casting Fire II and HEAL!!!1!!"?

Please tell me I misunderstand the implications of this.

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Both classes have always been about both healing and nuking, after the most recent changes THM is a better nuker than CON, and CON is a better healer than THM. I don't know why you think nukes are not fundamental to THM when THM has always had high level nukes, and now a THM outnukes a CON pretty much 100 percent of the time.

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Originally Posted by KaplanHomahru

Both classes have always been about both healing and nuking, after the most recent changes THM is a better nuker than CON, and CON is a better healer than THM. I don't know why you think nukes are not fundamental to THM when THM has always had high level nukes, and now a THM outnukes a CON pretty much 100 percent of the time.

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A THM has two basic attack (nuke) spells and one other that they get later on. I would not call that fundamental to the role of THM. Status effects are a defining characteristic however.

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Originally Posted by Dreamer

Protip: Black Mage DOES NOT mean elementalist.

Once you get rid of that mindset, the relationships are easy to see. If you play through the CONJ and THM story quests, you'll see that the conj are essentially elemental worshiping priests, while the thm are more.... hitman-esque.

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Wait a moment isn't CNJs french name "Élémentaliste"?
. . .

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Originally Posted by Wynn

A THM has two basic attack (nuke) spells and one other that they get later on. I would not call that fundamental to the role of THM. Status effects are a defining characteristic however.

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So even though THM nukes do more damage, thus making it the superior nuker you are saying nuking cannot be a fundamental part of the class because CON has a wider variety of less potent nukes? Well then I guess we just don't see eye to eye. My main point was this: both classes have always healed and nuked, and they will probably continue to do both. THM could get the elemental spells for BLM and CON gets scourge/banish to nuke when it isn't WHM.

Both classes are, fundamentally, magic users that can cast healing/nuking/buffing/debuff magic...after the changes they will still be magic users that can cast healing/nuking/buffing/debuffing magic...thus fundamentally unchanged.

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Originally Posted by Bowen

Wait a moment isn't CNJs french name "Élémentaliste"?
. . .

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So?

Look at its japanese name.