What does everyone think about those AST buffs?

I think Synastry healing the extra 40% on your connected target is a bug, considering the description notes "Each time you cast a healing spell on a party member not under the effect of Synastry".

AST shield with hive weapon and no eso stuffs (ilvl 183) = 1825 + 30% = ~2372
SCH simple adlo shield with hive weapon and a few eso stuffs (ilvl 186) = ~2145

SCH can do better with Eos 20% heal potency buff (but you don't use Eos all the time and the cooldown is high)
AST can do better shield with synastry, same heal potency buff with 90 cd.

AST shield is definitely better without crit. And you don't really crit often anyway.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

What tactic cooldowns? Dissi buff does not influence Indomitability or Lustrate. Do you mean Emergency Tactics - so a situational setup for a situational cd? Lol ok.

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Tactical cooldowns = Deployment or Emergency. One of which should be up if you need the potency boost. Use with Succor if you need the AoE. Fairy change isn't the only reason, maybe you don't want to change either.

I honestly think some SCHs fear for their lives without a fairy at any second or don't find the full value of their toolkit in end-game raiding and strategic use of the skill separates those SCHs from those who don't just dismiss the skill as useless. The reality is given the situation when your WHM is low on MP and maybe the SCH as well, the skill can pretty much put the SCH into a main healer role to immediately cover with plenty of potency and MP and even go back into DPS without any concern as the WHM recovers.

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Originally Posted by Cupcakesu

I think Synastry healing the extra 40% on your connected target is a bug, considering the description notes "Each time you cast a healing spell on a party member not under the effect of Synastry".

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It doesn't work on me. I tried to heal the person I synastried and it was only healed by that 20% extra that gives synastry.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Look...math is math. No two ways around it. If it is bugged, that is another matter entirely.

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I'm not really sure what you're even trying to say anymore. I was taking my average A.Bene's, then adding a 130% shield to it. Which was giving me a number that was (slightly) less than sch's.

Does Astro follow the same double crit value that SCH has for Adlo?
I don't really know since I've never met an AST that actually uses Nocturnal Sect.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Any DET on either weapon? Same ilvl doesn't actually mean same secondaries.

With that being said the 12 MND less but doing more healing kinda proves a point at this juncture. I'll probably end up messing around with this tonight just to get something more concrete.

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Det, and everything else for that matter, are identical on my character attributes. Though for the record, the two weapons give the same secondaries anyway.

Edit: If I were to guess, I would say noct stance's 5% bonus isn't triggering for A.Bene. That or I got unfavorable rng and only pulled from the low end of my healing range on ast, while highs on my sch. Which is possible.

Whuut????

It just sounds like we're over all OP!!!!
Are we????

I don't think so......

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Originally Posted by Khyan

AST shield with hive weapon and no eso stuffs (ilvl 183) = 1825 + 30% = ~2372
SCH simple adlo shield with hive weapon and a few eso stuffs (ilvl 186) = ~2145

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I'd recommend putting the same on your SCH that you have with AST as that'll make the ilvls the same. Always test like for like if you want to prove something or the test is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Also I would recommend you state any MND difference between the two jobs as Eudyptes has stated a 12 MND difference in her test and it would probably be prudent for you to do the same.

I'm not trying to take sides in this, just trying to find truth and would appreciate any assistance as I can't actually play the game at this time.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

Det, and everything else for that matter, are identical on my character attributes. Though for the record, the two weapons give the same secondaries anyway.

Edit: If I were to guess, I would say noct stance's 5% bonus isn't triggering for A.Bene.

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This makes sense to me in some capacity. It's a shame we can't equalize the two MND values between the two jobs for a completely true test. Well, unless you want to buy a Hymm and lower your MND on AST by 12 just for the duration of the test. That can pretty much settle the debate once and for all.

What value do you have for Adlo with your test?

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

I'm testing them in game with the exact same gear, and adding 130% to my A.Bene's is about 100 healing~ less than doubling Adlo. If I'm doing my math wrong, then I'm wrong. But it seems to me that A.Bene is still weaker.

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They're so close that the difference may be because of determination stat/luck. But maths don't lie, AB has slightly higher potency (603.75 vs 600). Of course, Adlo is still better because of crit bonus (this will become more evident as higher lvl gear is added) and deployment tactics. AB also is more MP efficient, but on a job that struggles with MP because it only has one healing skill with no MP cost (Dignity) vs a job with very good MP management and a lot of mp free healing skills, so bringing up MP efficiency in this case is not very insightful.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I'd recommend putting the same on your SCH that you have with AST as that'll make the ilvls the same. Always test like for like if you want to prove something or the test is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Also I would recommend you state any MND difference between the two jobs as Eudyptes has stated a 12 MND difference in her test and it would probably be prudent for you to do the same.

I'm not trying to take sides in this, just trying to find truth and would appreciate any assistance as I can't actually play the game at this time.

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Actually, ast ilvl is lower than my scholar ilvl. If the scholar ilvl was the same, it will be even more weaker...

AST MND = 928
SCH MND = 938

I just prove AST normal shield is better.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

Actually, ast ilvl is lower than my scholar ilvl. If the scholar ilvl was the same, it will be even more weaker...

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Yeah, I typed that poorly.

I imagine your AST gear set is Gordian / Law gear. I'd recommend putting that on your SCH and redoing the test to equalize the ilvls. Try to equalize the MND too just for a perfectly equal test.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

I just prove AST normal shield is better.

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We're talking eHP / total potency here, not total shielding. It's a small but important semantic to the discussion.

Based on your post:

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Originally Posted by Khyan

AST shield with hive weapon and no eso stuffs (ilvl 183) = 1825 + 30% = ~2372
SCH simple adlo shield with hive weapon and a few eso stuffs (ilvl 186) = ~2145

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AST @ i183 has a total eHP of 4197
SCH @ i186 has a total eHP of 4290

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Yeah, I typed that poorly.

I imagine your AST gear set is Gordian / Law gear. I'd recommend putting that on your SCH and redoing the test to equalize the ilvls. Try to equalize the MND too just for a perfectly equal test.

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AST MND = 928
SCH MND = 938


SCH still have better ilvl. SCH have better stats and still have the weakest non-crit shield. My conclusion is, AST shield is better than adlo without crit.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

AST MND = 928
SCH MND = 938

DET is almost identical.

SCH still have better ilvl. SCH have better stats and still have the weakest non-crit shield.

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Again, we're not talking about only the shield aspect of the math. We're talking about the entire potency of both spells. The shield is only one aspect of two similar spells.

Maybe WHM will get its Stoneskin Trait back that we lost when AST came around and a better one to replace our Protect trait. That would be nice.

Im really happy, i've been playing all morning and for real the changes are point, i dont feel OP, the cards do feel worth when u spread card on team with 30 secs and that synastry buff is awesome for heavy dmg phase, still my WHM heals more on burst but i can finally tell im happy with this... AND FINALLY noc. stance is worth using better synergy with WHM than stacking regens.

I think we are on a good path, still next healer class i hope its not a hybrid with buffing actions. hard to balance. *awesome job on buffs* *i think card will get a 5 sec nerf later on but eveything else on point (might be wrong)*

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Again, we're not talking about only the shield aspect of the math. We're talking about the entire potency of both spells. The shield is only one aspect of two similar spells.

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AST MND = 928
SCH MND = 938

AST DET = 344
SCH DET = 356

If AST is a total eHP of 4197 and SCH 4290, I think even with the entire potency it's still better : My AST lack 10MND and 12DET points.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

Does Astro follow the same double crit value that SCH has for Adlo?
I don't really know since I've never met an AST that actually uses Nocturnal Sect.

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Nope. That's SCH exclusive.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

think the changes were 100% needed, but I have a feeling they went a little overboard with buffing baseline potency, cooldowns, and card buffs.

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Agreed in full.

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Originally Posted by SerosJourney

Whuut????

It just sounds like we're over all OP!!!!
Are we????

I don't think so......

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No, AST is not totally op. But it seems GideonHighmourn is right here.

However, in pvp, yes.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

Maybe WHM will get its Stoneskin Trait back that we lost when AST came around and a better one to replace our Protect trait. That would be nice.

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I'm actually very happy with the new Stoneskin trait. Before, SS had such a long cast time it made it hard to use it in combat, sure it is amazing pre-combat to put on everyone, but there are very very few instances in which you can use in combat, and even get it casted in time due to the long cast time on it. The new trait makes it pretty fast to cast in combat. I use it a lot more as a WHM in combat.

I'm not particuarly fond of the new medica trait they added to replace the protect trait...it just adds even more RNG to WHM toolkit.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Changes to AST were needed, absolutely. However, I feel like they went a bit over board with them and buffed every aspect of AST (baseline heals, cooldowns, and buffs). I feel that AST+AST might be a very likely thing; Synastry is likely the most powerful tank CD (+60%~ healing on a single target), CU has become a better/more potent version of Asylum/Sacred Soil, Nocturnal shields are now more powerful than SCH's (combined with having a more powerful Cure II and Medica in Nocturnal, and access to +60% healing makes A Bene a much safer option than Adlo), and longer DPS buffs from cards.

I think the changes were 100% needed, but I have a feeling they went a little overboard with buffing baseline potency, cooldowns, and card buffs.

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I feel I would be a lot happier if they didn't touch the potency on Benefic / Benefic II / Helios. I feel like this takes away the identity Diurnal and Nocturnal gave AST since the sects noramlized their baseline heals. That's my only gripe about all the changes. I like everything else that was put on the table.

SCH ilvl 183, same gear than my AST, ilvl 183.

SCH MND = 916.
DET = 344.

ADLO = ~2075

AST MND = 928
AST DET = 344

AST shield = ~1825 +30 % = ~ 2372

SCH : 2075 + 2075 = 4150 ehp
AST : 1825 + 2372 = 4197 ehp

AST aspected benefic > adloquium when non-crit

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I feel I would be a lot happier if they didn't touch the potency on Benefic / Benefic II / Helios. I feel like this takes away the identity Diurnal and Nocturnal gave AST since the sects noramlized their baseline heals. That's my only gripe about all the changes. I like everything else that was put on the table.

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While I do not main Astro (Or even have it lvl'd for that matter), the main healer for my raid is an Astro and has been since the start of the expansion, the only downfall I've seen with them was their CU and their AoE heal range...Their range is 5 ylms lower than WHM, which to me is their biggest issue.
Astro didn't need more potency. They do just fine in the single target heal department. They lack in AoE, and that is mostly due to the range reduction they have. If they were just given 20 ylms with their old healing values, I believe it would have been fine. But now that they have increased healing potency, they deserve lower AoE range~

Loving the changes. :) Though I would have prefered the cards to be more in synergy with the healing, these changes are well received by me. It seems like I can finally main AST for Savage. Can't wait to try it out tonight.

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Originally Posted by Archvile78

So i wonder, with the Balance card + extended + TD + CO are we looking at 1min30 10% damage buff lol?

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30 secs x 2 from Extended + 15 seconds from Time Dilation + 5 from Celestial Opposition = 1 minute and 20 seconds of fun on the bun. :D

Honestly, it blows my mind, how many people in this thread I have seen whining and complaining about how AST sucked, and how it needed so many changes to make it viable. Now, they've made some great changes, and the same people are bitching and moaning because AST now has something that makes it a great healer - even while WHM and SCH are still as amazing (as they always were) and will never be replaced.

Seriously, grow up. Some of you are seriously acting like the jealous stepsisters in my Final Fantasy Fairytale (see page 17).

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

I'm actually very happy with the new Stoneskin trait. Before, SS had such a long cast time it made it hard to use it in combat, sure it is amazing pre-combat to put on everyone, but there are very very few instances in which you can use in combat, and even get it casted in time due to the long cast time on it. The new trait makes it pretty fast to cast in combat. I use it a lot more as a WHM in combat.

I'm not particuarly fond of the new medica trait they added to replace the protect trait...it just adds even more RNG to WHM toolkit.

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Well I wasn't happy with the trait change honestly, the previous casting time for Stoneskin was fine for when you actually needed to use it for certain tank buster mechanics like Turn 9 Ravensbeak and Turn 13 Flatten. Now the MP cost is higher for just 10% and less casting time, it's a lousy tradeoff. Although yoship apologized for hurting the identity a bit in-return they gave WHM pretty good healing options after 50.

My wish going forward is they add a new job skill that practically "replaces" Stoneskin for WHM only in the next expansion. That way the other jobs can still use Stoneskin and WHM has a newer one to address >100% mitigation in some more meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by TraeSnow

I'm actually very happy with the new Stoneskin trait. Before, SS had such a long cast time it made it hard to use it in combat, sure it is amazing pre-combat to put on everyone, but there are very very few instances in which you can use in combat, and even get it casted in time due to the long cast time on it. The new trait makes it pretty fast to cast in combat. I use it a lot more as a WHM in combat.

I'm not particuarly fond of the new medica trait they added to replace the protect trait...it just adds even more RNG to WHM toolkit.

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The vast majority of mechanics are scripted so I never had a problem casting SS since you know when every attack comes. Now the amount gained is not even worth the MP, unless it's required to stop a 1HKO which is very few (mostly fresh raid content, sometimes) and is generally less dangerous with increases in gear. I have it on my third bar for PVP purposes, lol.

Ok After trying AST in dungeons i can say that i'm happily surprised and yes, it is buffed as it should have been from the beginning.
I'm really considering to go AST in savage now.
Anyway: the only thing i think should be fixed is celestial opposition. Give some other effect, +5s buffs looks kinda silly

I feel like quick stoneskin should make that thing borderline instant. It feels like AST and PLD have better uses for stoneskin than white mages, since we can heal for 10% of someone's health really easily and we're not gonna blow swiftcast on it, while PLDs can use SS as a self mitigation tool and AST have a way to use multiple spells while quickcasting.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

The vast majority of mechanics are scripted so I never had a problem casting SS since you know when every attack comes. Now the amount gained is not even worth the MP, unless it's required to stop a 1HKO which is very few (mostly fresh raid content, sometimes) and is generally less dangerous with increases in gear. I have it on my third bar for PVP purposes, lol.

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That may be true, as well as what Verdan said.
I don't use my WHM for raid content though, I main SMN and only use my WHM for non raid content. For dungeons and normal ATurns, I find the fast stoneskin to be nice xD

Happy AST got buffs, less happy with their direction (would have preferred card adjustments over healing band aids, but I acknowledge that CU needed a fix and AST needed a throughput buff nonetheless).

However, I do disagree with the sentiment that "card RNG is fine because all cards are useful". All cards are "useful", yes, in a strict application theory, but in practice only two of them (MAYBE three) are ever really desired. For instance, Spire and Ewer are not powerful enough nor reliable enough to ensure that your raid group will never need a BRD. Bole is not reliable enough to ensure that your tank not need to pop a more powerful cooldown for a tank buster over a lesser one (Sentinel vs. Rampart, for instance.) DPS usually cannot afford to alter their CD rotations to fit around an AST's Spear usage, which leaves Arrow and Balance the only two cards that are unquestionably useful regardless of your party composition or when you Draw them (short of boss invuln phases, lol).

That's what people mean when they gripe about "RNG buffs". It's not that the buffs are ever undesired or unusable at any given time, it's that they're not consistent enough to significantly alter any raid group's accepted strategy. They are fun flavor perks, which is not necessarily "bad", but some ASTs feel like the buffs were implied to be a lot more game changing than what they are, and are disappointed that they didn't really add a layer of complexity to the job like they could have.

Back to the topic, I still think SCHs are pretty competitive at endgame healing, but if I were a WHM I'd be a bit wary. Outside of extreme back-to-back group burst healing scenarios I think most everything in AST's toolkit is powerful enough to compete with WHM.

been playing since about 6 am have not ran savage "yet" what I can say. We got ON PAR finally with other healers. we are not OP we in our niche. Scholars=Best emergency healing toolkit and amazing dps. Whitemage=superior aoe burst healing and top off king. Astro-Best Sustained healer able to keep heals rolling efficiently without over healing and a card buff can help push the party if blessed by RNG or a card buff can make things go smoother or easier if not ideal. There is a card for every situation and its not. Royal road is there for you.
CK is like that Cartman demanding he too gets a birthday gift at stans party because hes a special snowflake. Well CK sch are special snowflake too. Every healer can be a special snowflake so cheer up cupcake your not irrelvant astro is just now "another" option.

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Originally Posted by Eudyptes

No it's not, where are you getting that from? It's an instant cast, which is nice, but it's certainly not stronger.

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Was on my char this morning. Aspected Benefic did an average of 2k healing (2600 shield)
Scholars adlo does 2100 (2100 shield).

I counted non crit. Obviously crit is better, but crit should not be relied upon.

Adlo costs a LOT more mp too compared to aspected benefic.

Both jobs have same gear.

EDIT: I do have 35 points into int for my Arcanist. Forgot to note that. But it is still stronger x.x

You shouldn't really compare mp consumption of aspbene/adlo, the mp costs are tuned to their respectively ability to get mana back. Yes, scholar use more mp, but Aetherflow is also very powerful compared to LA.

I'm happy with the changes, btw. I don't think it's op in anything, it's only very viable now and on par with most things. I'll try to replace my scholar with astro for A1S and maybe A3S just to try, but for A2S(and A3S i fear) scholar dps is too helpful to try another healer. DPS is in fact the only aspect that i don't like; yes astro have buffs but his personal dps is too low and expansive :s

The only thing I see being reverted or changed is increasing aspected benfic MP cost so we dont step on the special snowflake "scholar" increase mp cost in nocturnal stance that is to like 1400 or something

I don't get the negative "AST is OP" vibe - AST is now working as intended. A fully functional healer who CAN GIVE YOU BUFFS at a more consistent rate, and CAN heal at similar rate to their counterpart. WHM is your defacto "THE HEALER", SCH is your "DPS HEALER" and AST is your "BUFFS HEALER". Each healer now has their own specialty.

AST heal SHOULD consume far less MP, it is working as intended. SCH is by far far far far far more efficient healer out of the three. WHM is your safety net healer. AST cannot and will not be able to match SCH aetherflow when it comes to MP recovery, but at least AST consume less MP per heal. All of you "negative nancies", please kindly STFU, either go play AST before crying chicken little, or shut your trap. Trying to chime in on the "AST is OP bandwagon" ain't gonna help since as it is now, SCH is still the most OP healer with the best abilities overall, and the best mana recovery, and emergency "oh shit" tool. WHM come second in place, with its unrivaled healing potency and party MIND boost. AST is the third in position, but now AST has a place with decent buffs and healing ability.

I am glad that they normalized potency on spells. I have more reasons to run this class in raids. But Noct shield still doesn't stack with SCH, and can be potentially better than our shield...

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Originally Posted by Dalvy

I am glad that they normalized potency on spells. I have more reasons to run this class in raids. But Noct shield still doesn't stack with SCH, and can be potentially better than our shield...

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So? It should be better, and potentially better. I have no qualms about it. SCH + Fairy is still far better than AST lol. But AST now is good, with its own deck of card buffing potential that actually can be manipulated to last forever and ever, and make up the lack of DPS from AST. It is working as intended. Each healer now has their own place, and bring their own special abilities to the table. All these players crying "the final nails in WHM coffins", please wake up and stop being delusional and crying chicken little. WHM at level 60 pretty much destroy AST in healing category, it is the BEST healer in the game, who can also DPS just as good. Now you have choices and options when it comes to your healer combo, and as always, in the hand of good players who communicate with each other, double AST do have the potential to be an absolute beast, and can rival the tried and true WHM + SCH set.