We should have a "Lance mage", "Ninja Sword mage", "Fist mage"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

MNK or DRG ... BLMs

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Except your argument is that they'd be MORE likely to eat the AOE with instant casts which allow them to move and maintain DPS while avoiding the attack than with cast times that force them to stop attacking until they stop.

Would those BLMs eat all those AOEs if Fire 1 was instant cast?

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time your oGCD

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We're not talking about timing OGCDs, though. We're talking about pace, remember?

If I can only squeeze in one OGCD when I could previously fit in 2, then it's slower paced.

Quote:

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Also you never answered my question.

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I didn't answer it because it doesn't have an answer.

Could be 1 in a minute, could be 0, could be 20. For example, when I was doing my trial roulette yesterday and got Moogles, I threw my dots on everything I could, and was getting procs almost every GCD, sometimes multiple times. I was able to use most of them because I wasn't locked in a cast bar when they procced.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Except your argument is that they'd be MORE likely to eat the AOE with instant casts which allow them to move and maintain DPS while avoiding the attack than with cast times that force them to stop attacking until they stop.

Would those BLMs eat all those AOEs if Fire 1 was instant cast?

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I bet you a lot less would and they would run around like Jack Rabbits too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

We're not talking about timing OGCDs, though. We're talking about pace, remember?

If I can only squeeze in one OGCD when I could previously fit in 2, then it's slower paced.

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Uh that doesn't make sense. You speed up every 60 seconds as I stated earlier. the rest of the time you're just sitting there waiting for a BL proc or BL/Emp Arrow to come off CD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I didn't answer it because it doesn't have an answer.

Could be 1 in a minute, could be 0, could be 20. For example, when I was doing my trial roulette yesterday and got Moogles, I threw my dots on everything I could, and was getting procs almost every GCD, sometimes multiple times. I was able to use most of them because I wasn't locked in a cast bar when they procced.

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Demonstrate for me in a 60 second encounter how the new cast bar inhibits this on a single target.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I bet you a lot less would and they would run around like Jack Rabbits too.

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In which case, why do you assume Bards would eat more AOEs if their attacks were instant?

Quote:

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You speed up every 60 seconds as I stated earlier.

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If you ignore procs and several OGCDs that you'd weave in to eke out more damage on your inherently hindered class, yeah.

Also, why are you trying to tell me what happens on the class I mained? I know how often I need(ed) to push buttons. Jumping between scaled down high level roulettes/trials vs the 50+ content really makes a sharp contrast for me, regardless of how much you might think you can tell me how my class plays.

You're like a guy sitting outside someone's window on the first floor looking into their house and trying to tell the person who lives there how they've decorated the second floor because you think that sitting on the outside gives you a better insight into the house than them.

Optional Cooldown used to boost DPS. Don't like it don't use it. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

In which case, why do you assume Bards would eat more AOEs if their attacks were instant?

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Per your recommendation they would lose a stacking buff if they moved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

If you ignore procs and several OGCDs that you'd weave in to eke out more damage on your inherently hindered class, yeah.

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It's not like you can't weave them in. It's all a priority system correct? Has that changed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Also, why are you trying to tell me what happens on the class I mained? I know how often I need(ed) to push buttons. Jumping between scaled down high level roulettes/trials vs the 50+ content really makes a sharp contrast for me, regardless of how much you might think you can tell me how my class plays.

You're like a guy sitting outside someone's window on the first floor looking into their house and trying to tell the person who lives there how they've decorated the second floor because you think that sitting on the outside gives you a better insight into the house than them.

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I played Bard and know how it plays. Just because your a glass is half empty kind of guy, doesn't mean the changes need to be thrown out.

Also you're analogy of the house is horrible and is irrelevant.

Yu gaiz r funeh.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

would lose a stacking buff

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

When in WM, your weaponskills apply a non-stacking buff

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Sorry, according to whose recommendation?

Quote:

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It's not like you can't weave them in.

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If I can use BL and Blunt Arrow in the same GCD, that's 2.5 seconds earlier they'll be ready.

If BL procs before my next cast time is up, then I have to put off Blunt Arrow for another 2.5 seconds.

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I played Bard

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Just because you play something at one point doesn't mean you were good at it and know all about it.

You also haven't played it to 60, as you have already stated, so you don't even have any way to compare except your own assumptions.

I have all classes at 50, but you don't see me going into DRG threads or BLM threads and telling them to shut up about what they don't like about their changes.

And the analogy of the house is accurate and relevant. You're on the outside looking in.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Sorry, according to whose recommendation?

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I can say I misread your initial comment. Still isn't that what WM is but with a 1.5 second cast timer?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

If I can use BL and Blunt Arrow in the same GCD, that's 2.5 seconds earlier they'll be ready.

If BL procs before my next cast time is up, then I have to put off Blunt Arrow for another 2.5 seconds.

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Which is a good thing. I don't see the fuss in this for a 50 potency attack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Just because you play something at one point doesn't mean you were good at it and know all about it.

You also haven't played it to 60, as you have already stated, so you don't even have any way to compare except your own assumptions.

I have all classes at 50, but you don't see me going into DRG threads or BLM threads and telling them to shut up about what they don't like about their changes.

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You could have main'd something and never been good at it. Also I never told you to shut up. I said to quit crying a river or complaining and being resistant to change. You know change is good.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And the analogy of the house is accurate and relevant. You're on the outside looking in.

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Decorating vs playing a class don't even correlate.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

isn't that what WM is

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Which was my point, if you recall all the way back, that you can limit mobility without introducing a cast time which ruins the flow and play style that the class had for 2 years and 52 levels.

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don't see the fuss

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Which suggests that you're not that interested in optimizing your damage. And that's fine, but with a class that has an inherent 10% less weapon damage, you have to weave in everything you can.

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quit crying a river

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I'm not, though. I've voiced my complaints and given constructive suggestions.

If non-Bards didn't jump at the chance to defend changes that don't affect them at all, these threads would be a quarter as big.

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change is good.

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Some is.

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Decorating vs playing a class

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But it wouldn't really be an analogy if I had said "You're like a guy who's looking at Bards as a non-Bard and telling a Bard how they play a Bard."

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Which suggests that you're not that interested in optimizing your damage. And that's fine, but with a class that has an inherent 10% less weapon damage, you have to weave in everything you can.

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But WM provides a 10-12% increase in dps to compensate as people have provided parses to prove otherwise. So you gain a 10-12% increase in dps to delay a 50 potency attack.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

But it wouldn't really be an analogy if I had said "You're like a guy who's looking at Bards as a non-Bard and telling a Bard how they play a Bard."

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You could have picked something better. Looking at how some chops wood, mows their lawn, etc. Playing a class is task related vs artistic related (decorating).

The reason non-bards jump in is because your complaint isn't logical. Which is obvious since you are more concerned of a 50 potency attack vs a 10-12% increase in dps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

So you gain a 10-12% increase in dps to delay a 50 potency attack.

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Okay. And?

I didn't say anything about DPS. I said that the class became slower paced.

Remember?

I didn't say we did less damage now. I said that the class became slower-paced, reducing its complexity. At no point did I make a complaint about the DPS now being lower.

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The reason non-bards jump in is because your complaint isn't logical. Which is obvious since you are more concerned of a 50 potency attack vs a 10-12% increase in dps.

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Judging from your efforts here, you don't even seem to understand my complaint, much less those of all Bards. Which is obvious since you bring up DPS when I'm talking about play style.

The reason non-Bards jump in is because they think they understand more than they really do.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

snip.

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Still not following you because in reality this conversation has gone in circles and so have your arguments. You talk about pace and having to squeeze in all your oGCD to "optimize dps".

Bard have never been complex and so there is not much to understand. It never mattered if you did circles around the boss or stand still you would still do the same thing, you would follow your priority. If anything WM makes bards more aware.

Also I wouldn't say ALL bards as I have seen bards who say that using WM is beneficial to their dps.

I understand your complaint from that you dislike cast timers and are worried about trying to get two oGCD's within a GCD time limit as it speeds up the pace for 10s out of 60s.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Only if your willing to take a 40+% overall DPS baseline loss of which to place/build that 30% on. :)

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Except that wasn't what was mentioned. The OP didn't say anything about reducing baseline DPS (because they're claiming it isn't the DPS differences that are the problem, but the sheer change in mobility).

Bard has a lower baseline (and it isn't 40% lower by the way) because they have a boon in their ability to continue DPS during what would be a disconnect for melee DPS. You can keep hitting the boss while a melee DPS cannot and has to rely on DoTs and gap-closers to mitigate (but never eliminate) the disconnect from the boss.

So to reiterate, Bard has the ability to continue their DPS while they are moving away from threat. A melee cannot do this. Thus melee gets an increase in their DPS potential compared to bards.

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

You''ll lose auto attacks and time to use mudras in between weaponskills.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keylus

you seem to forgot about the loss of auto atacks. It is not a +30%

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I am well aware that auto-attacks would be lost, but you are both over-valuing how much they add. At most you are getting 25% of your DPS thanks to your auto-attacks. Without them and a 30% DPS boost on top of everything else would net you at minimum a 5% DPS boost.

Wanderer's Minuet gives a 1.5s cast time, which is less than even a Ninja's GCD (which is around 2.0).

Currently I can incorporate a two mudra Ninjutsu into my rotation with only a minor nudge to my next GCD skill. Considering it is best practice to instead use Shuriken when you don't need to use a three mudra Ninjutsu this would not impact me either. I can fit that in between those 1.5s cast times.

The OP (and apparently a lot of Bards') issue is the lack of mobility, not the adjustment in damage. My point is that even with your 'loss of mobility' you still have more than a melee does. A good melee does not move unless they have to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I said that the class became slower-paced, reducing its complexity.

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Slower? Sure, we now have a whole 1.5 seconds to think about what to do next. Reduced complexity? Dont think so. We have to actually think about moving now... when to turn off WM or just take the dps hit and move, some are even considering using Feint now, when to finish the cast or get out of AoE, EA itself throws an interesting little twist to the whole rotation since its both a cast and an oGCD. Before it was all just GCD, one or two oGCD's, keep DoTs up, and repeat. Now we got all that and more, so id say we're at least somewhat more complex.

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At no point did I make a complaint about the DPS now being lower.

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So then what exactly is the point in bringing up the whole 1 oGCD vs 2 oGCD if not DPS? Fine we only have time for one oGCD now because of cast times ... so what? Our DPS is the same or better in comparison. If its not related to DPS then why is that point brought up every single time?

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those of all Bards.

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#NotAllBards

Am I the only one that cancels skill casts at around 80% and trigger oGCDs? It seems like I never really lost mobility as I don't sit there and wait for the cast to go through the animations. Especially helpful when dodging red spots aimed at me. You can slide-cast and cancel the animation and instantly trigger oGCD. Although if you mess up, your cast interrupts and you simply trigger OGCD rather than layering both on top of each other.

Although I do find myself not spamming my GCDs just to queue them anymore. I will agree that it requires a bit more intimate knowledge of optimal skills to prioritize when you have all of your cds up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caraway

I am well aware that auto-attacks would be lost, but you are both over-valuing how much they add. At most you are getting 25% of your DPS thanks to your auto-attacks. Without them and a 30% DPS boost on top of everything else would net you at minimum a 5% DPS boost.

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thats not how it maths out at all, if you lose 25% of your damage due to auto hits, that 25% isnt being boosted by the 30%, so your only applying a 30% damage buff to the remaining 75% of your damage.

this equates to a net LOSE in damage of 2.5%

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

so have your arguments.

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If you'd pay attention to my arguments in the first place instead of derailing onto things I haven't said, there'd be less circles, I assure you.

Quote:

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ALL bards

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I didn't say anything about the complaints of all bards.

I said that you don't understand my complaints and you're talking directly to me. If you can't understand mine on a one-to-one basis, then you won't understand what people that aren't me are complaining about either.

Quote:

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you dislike cast timers

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Then I picked a weird choice to level first when I picked a caster, eh?

No, you clearly don't understand my complaint. I don't mind cast timers. I mind cast timers that are shoehorned onto a class optimized for not having cast timers and that has no cast timers for 52 levels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kayote

If its not related to DPS then why is that point brought up every single time?

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Well, I don't know. Why don't you ask the people who aren't me why they bring up things that aren't relevant to what I was saying?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zamii

thats not how it maths out at all, if you lose 25% of your damage due to auto hits, that 25% isnt being boosted by the 30%, so your only applying a 30% damage buff to the remaining 75% of your damage.

this equates to a net LOSE in damage of 2.5%

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But the parses are saying otherwise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I didn't say anything about the complaints of all bards.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Judging from your efforts here, you don't even seem to understand my complaint, much less those of all Bards. Which is obvious since you bring up DPS when I'm talking about play style.

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You did right there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

No, you clearly don't understand my complaint. I don't mind cast timers. I mind cast timers that are shoehorned onto a class optimized for not having cast timers and that has no cast timers for 52 levels.

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Again change. So it is even more apparent that you don't like change. This is evident since really all your complaint is 'shoehorned' when really SE re-optimized it to have cast timers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zamii

thats not how it maths out at all, if you lose 25% of your damage due to auto hits, that 25% isnt being boosted by the 30%, so your only applying a 30% damage buff to the remaining 75% of your damage.

this equates to a net LOSE in damage of 2.5%

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Auto-attacks are only 20% though. It's a net gain on paper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

You did right there.

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I reiterate. I didn't say anything about the complaints of all bards.

I said you don't understand my complaints, so you wouldn't understand the entirety of complaints across all bards, which may or may not be the same as mine.

Quote:

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you don't like change.

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That's why I levelled all classes to 50. Because I hate change. And since all classes are exactly alike, there was no change.

Quote:

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SE re-optimized it to have cast timers.

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If it was optimized for cast timers, Straighter Shot wouldn't proc after the GCD is finished, resulting in potentially starting a Straight Shot cast before you get the buff that makes Straight Shot be instant cast.

Every time you make a post, you make it clearer that you don't know anything about current Bard problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Again change. So it is even more apparent that you don't like change. This is evident since really all your complaint is 'shoehorned' when really SE re-optimized it to have cast timers.

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Coming from a career bard that's currently level 55, this is a load of chocobo shite. Straighter shots don't even occur until you're half way into your second heavy shot or even straighter shot when you're refreshing it. Sometimes it doesn't even appear even after I use an oGCD right after heavy shot and starting my next heavy shot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

Auto-attacks are only 20% though. It's a net gain on paper.

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i know auto attacks arn't 25%, i was just using the numbers they did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

If it was optimized for cast timers, Straighter Shot wouldn't proc after the GCD is finished, resulting in potentially starting a Straight Shot cast before you get the buff that makes Straight Shot be instant cast.

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If you have oh-so-many oGCDs, use them after Straight Shot and you would be able to proc Straighter shot in the next GCD if it procced. That's what many BLMs did in 2.X.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hontaro

If you have oh-so-many oGCDs, use them after Straight Shot and you would be able to proc Straighter shot in the next GCD if it procced. That's what many BLMs did in 2.X.

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Doesn't work. The buff isn't applied quick enough even with an oGCD right after heavy shot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I have heard this. But this is the same issue BLM's have been facing with Fire Starter procs from day 1.

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Then don't say its optimized for cast times when it's clearly not the case =/. Not to mention straight shot is still a regular part of our prioirty list, it's utterly frustrating to see the buff occur in the middle of my straight shot (which costs more TP and has a lower potency than heavy shot)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

If it was optimized for cast timers, Straighter Shot wouldn't proc after the GCD is finished, resulting in potentially starting a Straight Shot cast before you get the buff that makes Straight Shot be instant cast.

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I have heard this. But this is the same issue BLM's have been facing with Fire Starter procs from day 1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Every time you make a post, you make it clearer that you don't know anything about current Bard problems.

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I could say "Every time you post, you aren't clear on what is the problem." You say play style has changed. Most classes play style has changed with the expansion.

PLD's are no longer 1,2,3
WAR's now have an offensive stance - like a real one
BLM's have abilities that are no longer relevant like thundercloud procs.

But then you divulge into the pace is slower. When in reality it is more consistently paced.

Then you go into I can't do 2 oGCD abilities which pushes one ability out which goes into your next gcd and thus keeping the pace more consistent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Coming from a career bard that's currently level 55, this is a load of chocobo shite. Straighter shots don't even occur until you're half way into your second heavy shot or even straighter shot when you're refreshing it. Sometimes it doesn't even appear even after I use an oGCD right after heavy shot and starting my next heavy shot.

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don't expect any chance. BLM had to deal with that since 2.0. An easy fix would be to allow straighter shot/firestarter to stack twice but apparently they disagree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hallena

don't expect any chance. BLM had to deal with that since 2.0. An easy fix would be to allow straighter shot/firestarter to stack twice but apparently they disagree.

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The thing with BRD is.
Bards get a double dose of this basically with Bloodletter proc's and Straight Shot proc's.

Bloodletter being different, but very comparable situation though.

Which is just questionable who at SE thinks it's such a great design that they'd set up a class with twice this fun.

Tears that were made on this thread is enough to fill a dam.

I don't play bard so correct me if I'm wrong... But it seems like bards are complaining that they can't have insane utility, mobility and really high DPS at the same time... I think it's perfectly reasonable that you can't have all of those at once, that would be completely unfair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Core1019

I don't play bard so correct me if I'm wrong... But it seems like bards are complaining that they can't have insane utility, mobility and really high DPS at the same time... I think it's perfectly reasonable that you can't have all of those at once, that would be completely unfair.

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No, that's not what Bards are complaining about at all.

That's what non-Bards try to boil the complaints down to because they don't know what they're talking about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Bards get a double dose of this basically with Bloodletter proc's and Straight Shot proc's.

Bloodletter being different, but very comparable situation though.

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BLM's have a double dose as well with Thundercloud (which is now useless) and Firestarter procs. Thundercloud works like Bloodletter and Firestarter like Straight Shot. But BLM's don't have the luxury have being able to use Thundercloud procs off the GCD and even if they could they would be unable to due to their 2.5 minimum cast timer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

BLM's have a double dose as well with Thundercloud (which is now useless) and Firestarter procs. Thundercloud works like Bloodletter and Firestarter like Straight Shot. But BLM's don't have the luxury have being able to use Thundercloud procs off the GCD and even if they could they would be unable to due to their 2.5 minimum cast timer.

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Well from what you describe you sound like you agree about how fun of a mechanic it is right?

Thunder proc's don't cut into BLM GCD, they take up the GCD for a (what used to be high potency attack) and added mobility, while happening quite rarely, not so much as throwing rotations off as fitting into rotations (Pre 3.0)
I understand how it's bad for 3.0 but it's been admitted to be bad and I'm pretty sure Yoshi already mentioned they'r fixing thunder in 3.0.

On a bard Bloodletter proc's happen about once every 7ish sec, they are OGCD so you still need to combine it with the cast of a GCD, meaning they don't really give you mobility without dps loss and because of the rate they can happen at it forces you to use them asap, pushing other ogcd's and now even GCD's because BL can proc during casts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

No, that's not what Bards are complaining about at all.

That's what non-Bards try to boil the complaints down to because they don't know what they're talking about.

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been following all these "brds" threads, and some brds want competitive dps, some want mobility others want more utility, and some want everything, so yes from an outsider perspective you guys are all over the place.


just because a few agree with you does not speak for all brds and what they want.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johaan

been following all this "brds" threads, and some brds want competitive dps, some want mobility others want more utility, and some want everything, so yes from an outsider perspective you guys are all over the place.


just because a few agree with does not speak for all brds and what they want.

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Have read a lot of these threads and agree with this 100%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Johaan

you guys are all over the place.

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Do I have to go through the importance of putting a limit on the scope of a statement when summarizing a group's position again?

Very well.

Adam likes anchovies, but hates beef and chicken.
Ben likes beef, but hates chicken and anchovies.
Charles likes chicken, but hates anchovies and beef.
Dan is a glutton and loves all three.

Adam, Ben, Charles, and Dan are all men.
The statement "Men like beef" is technically correct because Ben and Dan are men and like beef. However, it is misleading and an inaccurate summary of the situation because Adam and Charles are also men but don't like beef.

Can you figure out how this applies?

"Some bards" wanting more damage, "some bards" wanting 100% mobility with the damage, and "some bards" wanting more utility is inaccurately summed up as "Bards want more damage, 100% mobility, and more utility."

It wouldn't 'change dragoon completely.' It would simply not make sense. With how bows actually work, it actually does make a certain amount of sense on Bard. Same for Machinist, if you look at it as taking the time to aim more precisely. And as someone who mains Black Mage in addition to dragoon, SUCK IT UP. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Well from what you describe you sound like you agree about how fun of a mechanic it is right?

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I am more just saying welcome to the new world. Not saying things shouldn't change for QoL but the only change request I have seen is about WM and complaints about WM. In reality you're just getting affected by what other classes have felt for months/years. One key difference between the two is bloodletter has a CD where thunder and Fire III do not. BLM loses their freebie where as Bard delays another potential reset.

It looks like some creative problem solving needs to happen and it can't start with throw out WM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Horrible Analogy

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What he is saying is you guys need to come together with a united message on what you want. If you want change, the bard community can't be all over the place.

Because Adam, Ben, Charles and Dan do like to eat something that is similar. Find out what the similarity is perhaps Turkey or Pork.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I am more just saying welcome to the new world. Not saying things shouldn't change for QoL but the only change request I have seen is about WM and complaints about WM. In reality you're just getting affected by what other classes have felt for months/years. One key difference between the two is bloodletter has a CD where thunder and Fire III do not. BLM loses their freebie where as Bard delays another potential reset.

It looks like some creative problem solving needs to happen and it can't start with throw out WM.

What he is saying is you guys need to come together with a united message on what you want. If you want change, the bard community can't be all over the place.

Because Adam, Ben, Charles and Dan do like to eat something that is similar. Find out what the similar is perhaps Turkey or Pork.

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And that's exactly what I've been trying to do in my thread already
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-how-to-fix-it.

It is however hard to unite bards, because there are different issues for each one of them.
I mean I'm focusing on how to fix things within WM, but obviously there are plenty of bards that don't want to accept WM at all and what not.
I can't blame them, but saying remove WM doesn't offer a good basis for discussing issues with what we already have as this requires to meet a new condition first before we can even discuss how to fix the state that would come out of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

What he is saying is you guys need to come together with a united message on what you want. If you want change, the bard community can't be all over the place.

---

Which is difficult to do if people don't want the same things.

This may come as a surprise to you, but members of a group are allowed to disagree with other members of the same group.

And that will be the last response I grace you with, because I'm sure you'll ignore what I say anyways.

So I guess you agree bards all want different things?

Which means this current incarnation may be just what some bards want?

Which means some of you may have to just "suck it up" as it were.