Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

It's a 10 second duration.. 17% up-time on that fella.

Good for tank busters,

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Originally Posted by Abbul_Stonecleaver

I popped Raw Intuition on a gob walker, and didn't see a single parry. Maybe his attacks are magical

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Or ranged. Ranged physical cant be parried last I checked.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

Floor 1 is negligible since the damage is pathetically low.

Floor 2 does in fact have magical attacks as stated above, when I went in as WAR there were attacks that were not parried during Raw Intuition. Gob Walkers and the dolls have something that couldn't be parried I didn't see what it was because it was happening to fast, but out of the string of parries something that hit hard came through not parried.

Floor 3 has plenty of magic attacks, final phases Cascades for example, eating tethers are magical, the hand damage is negligible since you just group up and split it with everyone.

Floor 4 is all magic. The entire fight is nothing but magic damage, except the adds auto attacks I guess, and if you get quarantined that add is physical, Discoid is a heavy hitting tank buster, especially at the end of the fight and it's magic.

When savage opens up I imagine Floor 4 is going to be a DRK's dream for MTing.

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Floor 2: Crits ignore parry--if you are being attacked rapidly, you will probably get crit, and those crits hurt, and you cant block or parry crits. I also -believe- you cannot parry ranged attacks, and I think the Gob Walkers armor piercing shell is ranged.


Floor 3: tethers are negligble damage, cascades can hurt if it gets that far but generally low. Hand damage and the bosses (i forget the name--its when he uses his left hand to smack you) are the hard hitting tank attacks of the fight. Rest is ignorable.

Floor 4: Discord is not a heavy hitting tank buster--it attack that follows (the laser, which is not discord) is magical damage--that would be the power that is pulsing you for tons o damage. I'm not sure if discord is merely a cast that allows him to use that power, but combat log called it Empyrean Laser I want to say. The missiles are physical damage however (which again--not being able to block or parry does not mean something isnt physical, unless someone has some proof to that.

If party finders are regularly rejecting a job, then it's in need of a buff. Period.

Look at 2.0 WAR. Look at 2.4 Dragoon. Look at 2.4 Summoner.

"It's usable" isn't an excuse. Every job needs to be meaningfully competitive, which DRK isn't - not in party utility, not in OT DPS, and not in MT mitigation over time.

The only thing it has going for it is the ability to enable DRG | NIN melee comps and somewhat measurably higher MT DPS than PLD. Healers are taxed by the DRK's lackluster defenses and the entire party is taxed by its lower DPS and lack of utility, and the DRK themselves has to put forth additional work for no gain compared to other tanks, resulting in the job, while not being unusable is a burden to teams on it.


Fun facts, if you take the last paragraph and replace "DRK" with "DRG" and "DRG | NIN" with "BRD | BRD" I'm actually describing the 2.4 Dragoon. That was totally functional in raids and didn't need a buff, right guys?

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

It's the first I've heard of that.. FAIK the reason WAR was buffed in 2.1 is because i70 PLD/PLD was clearing COIL week 1 of release - when SE was expecting it to be not so easily accomplished til Crystal Towers i80 gear was available.

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The reason WAR was buffed was because its usage rate in top-end content was pathetically low, and it was being rejected from serious groups. A great deal of feedback and noise, paired with S-E's usage metrics led to the job being fixed in 2.1.

The same needs to happen with DRK. Let the user feedback and most importantly the use metrics in the first four weeks of Alexander Savage speak for themselves, not hyperbole about 'player skill' or how DRK is some sort of mystical special "magic tank" because it has a debuff that's a crappy Dragon Kick substitute and a Sentinel that only works on half the attacks in the game.

(Fun facts, on fights with lots of magic damage and therefore few attacks to parry, DRK's mitigation is actually crushed by the lack of access to Reprisal.)

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Originally Posted by Krr

and a Sentinel that only works on half the attacks in the game.

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1) A 10s Vengeance that only works...
2) Probably less than half

That said, DRKS have other things other tanks DONT have--amazing aoe, 2000+ potency off gcd per minute, etc etc. Not saying its rosey, they definitely need some work, but i cant imagine them getting really strong defensives without re-balancing elsewhere.

I would happily give up every single AoE DRK had if it meant I could actually be useful in raids.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

1) A 10s Vengeance that only works...
2) Probably less than half

That said, DRKS have other things other tanks DONT have--amazing aoe, 2000+ potency off gcd per minute, etc etc. Not saying its rosey, they definitely need some work, but i cant imagine them getting really strong defensives without re-balancing elsewhere.

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I think they're really just missing one more strong anti-physical ability. And some utility.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

That said, DRKS have other things other tanks DONT have--amazing aoe, 2000+ potency off gcd per minute, etc etc. Not saying its rosey, they definitely need some work, but i cant imagine them getting really strong defensives without re-balancing elsewhere.

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You just described two things Warriors have - great AOE control and high(er) DPS. They do so at no cost to utility and have equivalent or better maintanking abilities.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I think they're really just missing one more strong anti-physical ability. And some utility.

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Yeah this is pretty much it. A tiny EHP bump, one more reliable button for anti-physical damage (even if it's just a change that makes Dark Dance not crummy and unreliable) and a reason for DRK to ever be slotted as OT over WAR or PLD will make the job competitive.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I think they're really just missing one more strong anti-physical ability. And some utility.

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Yep, I just don't want to see any more abilities tacked on to DRK since my hotbar are getting overloaded as it is, so just some tweaks to existing stuff to provide those adjustments are the main things DRK needs. Also maybe more MP back from c&s and cd buffs that don't work against our MP regen mechanics (evasion ...).
Edit: Oh, almost forgot. TP regen on an ability to offset the skill-speed from Blood Weapon. Also better visual messaging for Living Dead/Walking Dead. Damn this list became longer than I initially intended.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Yep, I just don't want to see any more abilities tacked on to DRK since my hotbar are getting overloaded as it is, so just some tweaks to existing stuff to provide those adjustments are the main things DRK needs. Also maybe more MP back from c&s and cd buffs that don't work against our MP regen mechanics (evasion ...).
Edit: Oh, almost forgot. TP regen on an ability to offset the skill-speed from Blood Weapon. Also better visual messaging for Living Dead/Walking Dead. Damn this list became longer than I initially intended.

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What I really wish (although I doubt they'd consider it) was to change abyssal drain to a strong single target, GCD move that costs only mana. Something we could work into our rotation without much (if any) DPS loss.

Right now unleash & abyssal drain are both serving the same function as "big aoe threat move". I don't think we really need them both. I would much rather unleash worked just like abyssal drain does currently (MP, damage, dark arts) except you'd also have the free procs from unmend. I don't see what having both of them is doing for us.

Bonus points for giving it some kind of useful debuff for raid utility.

But it's sort of a drastic change, I doubt that sort of thing would be on the table.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

What I really wish (although I doubt they'd consider it) was to change abyssal drain to a strong single target, GCD move that costs only mana. Something we could work into our rotation without much (if any) DPS loss.

Right now unleash & abyssal drain are both serving the same function as "big aoe threat move". I don't think we really need them both. I would much rather unleash worked just like abyssal drain does currently (MP, damage, dark arts) except you'd also have the free procs from unmend. I don't see what having both of them is doing for us.

Bonus points for giving it some kind of useful debuff for raid utility.

But it's sort of a drastic change, I doubt that sort of thing would be on the table.

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I'd be really happy with a change like that. As things are, I can pretty much use the two skills interchangeably. It's silly how similar the two skills are, and it's a great example of how poorly designed DRK's skillset is. We should want DRK's complexity to come from making choices that matter, not maneuvering through a totally pointless skill bloat.

[

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Originally Posted by Krr

You just described two things Warriors have - great AOE control and high(er) DPS. They do so at no cost to utility and have equivalent or better maintanking abilities.


Yeah this is pretty much it. A tiny EHP bump, one more reliable button for anti-physical damage (even if it's just a change that makes Dark Dance not crummy and unreliable) and a reason for DRK to ever be slotted as OT over WAR or PLD will make the job competitive.

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Dark has much better aoe than war. War can burst aoe but that requires stacks and a lengthy cd to redo. Overpower destroys tp. Meanwhile salt the earth is amazing and free, low cd. Unmend and abyssal drain are cheap powers that deal excellent damage.

The issue I think is mindset. Many dark cds seem weak but also have very small cds. Compare dark dance to bulwark. Sure it's half the increase but it can get a Dodge bonus, lasts a third longer and has a tiny cd. Dark mind is a second vengeance every minute. It's hard to buff a class with such low cool downs. It can go from slightly under performing to overpowered quickly due to uptime.

My guess is if they do anything it would be to buff them and increase their cds. On the other hand this might all be wrong thinking. I've done all the ex and Alexander's and the only true buster has been in a4 and it dealt magic damage

While any group that is refusing you due to you being a dark for Extremes or Alexander Normal are just plain stupid, your statement:

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

"Sorry we want a warrior OT" or "Sorry, DRK's can't push the dps needed" AND ONE told me that due to my gear, I wasn't gonna get it unless I was a warrior cause it seems, warriors in MY gear can pull higher dps and give more to the group due to slashing debuff.

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Is a serious strike against the Dark Knight as a tank. Our dps can be competitive under the right circumstances but Warriors will always out dps us as the OT. The biggest flaw in the Dark Knight tanking tool kit is simply that we do not bring anything to the group when we are the OT. A Paladin can do their Rage of Halone combo as the OT and put up the Strength Debuff. A Warrior can Storm's Eye. We have 2 debuffs. The first, Reprisal is a proc off parrying an attack. Thus useless for the OT save for minimal circumstances of cleave soaking in A3 and Ravana. Even then the debuff is the same as Storm's Path, but unlike Storm's Path can not be 100% maintained. The second debuff we can bring is Blind. Unfortunately Trial and Raid bosses are immune to Blind. Thus as a DRK we can only bring something to the group by main tanking or being talented enough to have high OT DPS (which currently is a challenge and is not probable for most players).

There are a number of small tweaks that need to happen to DRK to make it more fun and balanced to play. But, the simple fact that we bring absolutely no utility to the group while Warrior and Paladin both bring debuffs (or in the case of PLD buffs) that can change the course of an encounter.

I had high hopes for the job. But until we are actually a help and not a hindrance to the group while not MT, I am stuck leveling warrior to 60 so I am not a burden to my friends.

If you want utility though, I'd expect to give up things. Paladins have no true aoe damage or real burst, so yeah they have utility and extra mitigation. Warriors and likely overturned at the moment in damage but if Alexander is an indication, SE plans to use much more magic damage in the future ergo the choice for delirium.

Also paladins have been dealing with blind immunity for years as well as pacification immunity. It stinks but this isn't new. Be great if bosses could be blinded at reduced effectiveness but SE doesn't like raid bosses missing since Titan EX.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Dark has much better aoe than war. War can burst aoe but that requires stacks and a lengthy cd to redo. Overpower destroys tp. Meanwhile salt the earth is amazing and free, low cd. Unmend and abyssal drain are cheap powers that deal excellent damage.

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can you measure the additional party DPS produced by this 'amazing aoe'? because tanks of old weren't really having aoe threat problems to begin with

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Originally Posted by Faytte

The issue I think is mindset. Many dark cds seem weak but also have very small cds.

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fact check

http://i.imgur.com/xtaKFgR.png
http://i.imgur.com/ldvIoH2.png

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Compare dark dance to bulwark.

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compare dark dance to raw intuition, lol. don't tell me you're actually gonna get hit from behind when you're fighting a raid boss that takes up 1/4 the screen. while we're at it, point me to a buster in 3.0 that can actually be evaded

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Dark mind is a second vengeance every minute.

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against less than half the attacks in the game right now, and less than a quarter of the busters in the game r/n

I seriously don't know how we can make 'uptime' as a serious argument for DRK cooldowns when inner beast exists and paladins have almost no gaps between their cooldown availability if played correctly

Every dark knight cooldown except dark mind is longer than, or equivalent to its counterparts present in other tanks. even dark dance has identical uptime to raw intuition yet is worse in every way except for trash pulls.

This all neglects that drk has no 100% uptime physical damage debuff like halone or storm's, less EHP than paladins, with their access to blockrate, and warriors, with their significantly higher raw HP, meaning that in addition to having shoddy, unreliable physical mitigation in the form of dark dance, dark knight is also missing something like 20% of the other tanks' passive EHP overall

The only argument I can honestly make in DRK's favor is that dark arts souleater is an almost-reliable way to get a 20% refund on most busters you'll eat except that won't stop you from dying if the damage you took exceeds your current HP and it can and will screw with your healer's perception of how much HP you actually have. Except, you know, again, that's just a poor man's inner beast

so what are dark knights gaining for this measurable disadvantage in maintanking, total lack of party utility, and inferior MT/OT DPS to Warriors? aoe damage that they can't even use 1/3 of the time because it'll run them out of MP if they do? the ability to not take damage from trash pulls in speedruns? woo-hoo. real competitive raiding job there.

congratulations, you can replace half of what a monk brings to a party in exchange for battle hymn and trick attack. except you either gave up your paladin and became the MT (enjoy your healers screaming in panic every time a savage boss so much as breathes on you,) or you replaced the warrior because apparently your static leader is literally insane and thinks "not needing a monk" is worth giving up a permanent 10% damage debuff, like 10% bonus DPS for your ninja, and FELL CLEAVE FELL CLEAVE FELL CLEAVE FELL CLEA

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Also paladins have been dealing with blind immunity for years as well as pacification immunity.

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paladins also have five cooldowns that work every time you use them instead of "when the game decides they should work" and "against those two whole endgame bosses that deal significant amounts of magic damage to the tank"

paladins didn't have an entire defensive cooldown balanced around the fact that they could blind enemies to improve it

paladins aren't required to pacify enemies in order to get damage reduction that is competitive to other tanks

The main problem with DRK is that some of them are just stupid. Last night, as a ilvl 160~ PLD, I tanked the Singularity Reactor with a DRK, undergeared compared to me. He spent all the fight in Grit, just beside me, and tried to take aggro all along, just spamming his aggro combo (and nothing else). He took, of course, all the cleave hits and Dragon's Gaze. And he turned off the Grit (but not the Darkside) when the boss dissapeared for the AOE phase.

As a lvl 53 DRK, I can understand why we're not welcome when I see some people playing DRK like that. And at lvl 60, so he wasn't a noob tank anymore...

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Originally Posted by Aerya

The main problem with DRK is that some of them are just stupid. Last night, as a ilvl 160~ PLD, I tanked the Singularity Reactor with a DRK, undergeared compared to me. He spent all the fight in Grit, just beside me, and tried to take aggro all along, just spamming his aggro combo (and nothing else). He took, of course, all the cleave hits and Dragon's Gaze. And he turned off the Grit (but not the Darkside) when the boss dissapeared for the AOE phase.

As a lvl 53 DRK, I can understand why we're not welcome when I see some people playing DRK like that. And at lvl 60, so he wasn't a noob tank anymore...

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I, and most others, have seen bad players of every class. People not knowing how to play DRK is not the problem. Most of the people making complaints in this thread know how to play DRK, but we still are significantly disadvantaged despite that.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

I, and most others, have seen bad players of every class. People not knowing how to play DRK is not the problem. Most of the people making complaints in this thread know how to play DRK, but we still are significantly disadvantaged despite that.

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"Significantly" disadvantaged? No, not at all.

Slightly disadvantaged? Yes, that's true. People are making a mountain out of a mole hill. There are certainly improvements that can be made to DRK. But that's true of all the new jobs. It's far better for a developer to start a class off underpowered and have to buff them than to start them overpowered and have to nerf them. "The Masses" respond far better to buffs than nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

I, and most others, have seen bad players of every class. People not knowing how to play DRK is not the problem. Most of the people making complaints in this thread know how to play DRK, but we still are significantly disadvantaged despite that.

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I agree my DRK is disadvantaged compared to my PLD, but not enough to make it refused in runs. I know a lot of people who sigh when they are with a DRK in a run, because it's the class with the most bad players right now. New class + new role is too much to learn for some people. The DRK reputation will get better when it will get a few buffs and adjustments (TP management for example), but also when the new "DRK looks so dark and cool" tanks learn their role or give up (and it already started).

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Originally Posted by Krr

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Just to get some things straight:
- PLD, DRK and WAR have exactly the same eHP outside of buffs with WAR being the most difficult to heal up again (all healing abilities are currently not affected by Defiance and heals in general are less efficient). Calculating eHP with buffs is pointless and completely fight dependant.
- PLD also has two unique cooldowns that only work against physical damage with bulwark being unreliable vs tank busters. WAR has one for physical. DRK has a unreliable one for physical and a really strong one for magical damage.
- Alexander 4 only deals magic damage to the MT, we will see how that translates into relevant content.

DRK has a really solid tanking toolset with Shadowskin, Shadow Wall and Dark Mind IF Square keeps using Magic Damage in new encounters. They should get some changes to their OT toolset, but that was discussed ad nauseam.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

- PLD, DRK and WAR have exactly the same eHP outside of buffs with WAR being the most difficult to heal up again (all healing abilities are currently not affected by Defiance and heals in general are less efficient). Calculating eHP with buffs is pointless and completely fight dependant.

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There is a 1% healing difference between WAR and PLD/DRK. All healing spells are affected by Defiance's +healing recieved. All 3 tanks are pretty much baseline equal, it's only the CDs that separate them.

The difference is ~4.1% and Lustrate, Indomitability, Essential Dignity and Tetragrammaton are not affected by Defiance (nor other healing buffs since they are abilities and not spells). Didn't test Assize and Asylum.

Oh, the abilities, yeah. They're not affected by it. Not sure why, feels like a bug that just hasn't been accepted.

Edit: Speak of the devil and he shall appear - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3128573

So... for some reason they're cool with this imbalance I guess. I don't know... why... but I guess that's... a thing...

Also, RE: the healing difference, WAR's self healing usually makes up for that (Bloodbath/SW/Equilibrium/IB). In terms of actually healing the two tanks, outside of using abilities, it's basically the same to get them back to full.

LMAO you most have some crap DPS on your Server I Cleared Ravana Ex with two DKs......and Bex with a pally dk combo.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

- Alexander 4 only deals magic damage to the MT, we will see how that translates into relevant content.

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You sure EVERYTHING is magic damage in A4? I am pretty sure the missles arent and in fact the only thing I am certain is magic is the tank buster.

Could be a ACT bug, but it noted everything as magic damage and I didn't see a single parry on the rockets (or anything else outside of the small adds).

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Originally Posted by Alphras

Could be a ACT bug, but it noted everything as magic damage and I didn't see a single parry on the rockets (or anything else outside of the small adds).

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As some have said before ranged phys attacks cant be parried either can they? I dont really see missles as being a magic damage sort of thing would make more sense as a ranged attack.

Just check it yourself, my group wont enter F4 until next week again.

Lets just say for now the majority of the damage that the MT will be using cooldowns for is magical (the tank buster, the orbs and the lasers).

Edit: And I never saw a fireball as physical damage ... they could be parried and they were ranged attacks.

Edit 2: To make that clear, you can block/parry ranged attacks.

The only thing I've parried or blocked are the adds in A4.

In the live letter they also specifically called out that they plan to do more with magic damage in raids.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Floor 4: Discord...

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Just to clear this up, Discord is the move that is putting the purple icon over a player's head. The 2 sets of 3 fireballs that come out follow that person. As Faytte said, Discord only signifies that the actual tank buster is coming right after. The tank buster itself actually is composed like 3 hits in real quick succession. Maybe one of them is called Empyrean Laser? I'm not sure about that (PS4), but I do know the flying text I always see when tanking that hit is Perpetual Ray. But it's completely possible each attack has a different name. I remember thinking how cool it was that ACT could pick up the 3 elemental dragons names in turn 9. It's like..."aww how cute SE gave these things we never target at all names" lol.

Perpetual Ray is the tank buster and it's like akh morn and will increase by one hit each time.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

What I really wish (although I doubt they'd consider it) was to change abyssal drain to a strong single target, GCD move that costs only mana. Something we could work into our rotation without much (if any) DPS loss.

Right now unleash & abyssal drain are both serving the same function as "big aoe threat move". I don't think we really need them both. I would much rather unleash worked just like abyssal drain does currently (MP, damage, dark arts) except you'd also have the free procs from unmend. I don't see what having both of them is doing for us.

Bonus points for giving it some kind of useful debuff for raid utility.

But it's sort of a drastic change, I doubt that sort of thing would be on the table.

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I don't know about making Abyssal Drain a single target ability or even if it should be kept at all under the situation you outlined. Maybe keep it with your changes, maybe get rid of it to free up another ability slot for something more needed, honestly haven't gotten to that point in my thought process yet.

However, I definitely agree about the unnecessary redundancy with Abyssal and Unleashed. As you suggested, they should really just condense them down into a single ability. Regular Unleashed works as is, DA+Unleashed works like DA+Abyssal. That would help streamline their ability set a bit and I feel that they could definitely use more of that.

I MT'ed Alex 4 last night as a WAR and checked all my incoming damage. Pretty much everything is magical. This situation makes Dark Mind pretty good but renders reprisal useless... Overall not really benefitting DRK as much as you'd think.

^
I think SE took the "inner turmoil" theme a bit too far with Dark Knight, even their ability-set conflicts with itself :P

@stoxastic - It's actually phenomenal, 30% magic damage reduction every 60s is huge in a fight that is almost pure magic. Also Raw Intuition/Sheltron/Bulwark/PLD's shield are all pretty much useless in this fight. Thinking in terms of Savage mode I think your go-to tank team would be DRK MT and WAR OT.

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Originally Posted by Ipkonfig

@stoxastic - It's actually phenomenal, 30% magic damage reduction every 60s is huge in a fight that is almost pure magic. Also Raw Intuition/Sheltron/Bulwark/PLD's shield are all pretty much useless in this fight. Thinking in terms of Savage mode I think your go-to tank team would be DRK MT and WAR OT.

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And Reprisal, Dark Dance, and Low Blow resets are useless.

War has better mitigation for magic than Drk does, while still supporting the group. Ontop of putting out some crazy DPS if they can stance dance.

War MT, Pld OT would be the way to go. That gives Divine Veil, Clemency, and good SoO DPS. If you need Int down (8% mitigation), take a Monk, they don't come at the cost of crippling your group utility, and their DPS at the moment is easily 1000+.

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Originally Posted by spelley

In the live letter they also specifically called out that they plan to do more with magic damage in raids.

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Is there a summary of the Q and As from that broadcast?

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

Pretty much everything is magical. This situation makes Dark Mind pretty good but renders reprisal useless... Overall not really benefitting DRK as much as you'd think.

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You could also just look at it as "Dark Mind is for magical fights, Reprisal is for physical fights." Still would be kind of nice to see some way to force-proc Reprisal to help reduce raid damage. Possible ideas would include:

1) Dark Arts can be used to force a proc, uses an established mechanic
2) Has a longer CD, but CD gets reduced each time you parry.
3) Might even be neat if a DRK trait made magic attacks parryable. Really push their niche.

I actually like #2 the most after typing it out. Means that in physical fights, they will end up having a shorter CD so it's up more often/reliably and in magical fights it just gets woven in with Dark Mind, meaning they have multiple CDs for magic tank busters that they can stagger.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

And Reprisal, Dark Dance, and Low Blow resets are useless.

War has better mitigation for magic than Drk does, while still supporting the group. Ontop of putting out some crazy DPS if they can stance dance.

War MT, Pld OT would be the way to go. That gives Divine Veil, Clemency, and good SoO DPS. If you need Int down, take a Monk, they don't come at the cost of crippling your group utility, and their DPS at the moment is easily 1000+.

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Disagree, even if a warrior inner beasts every perpetual, they still come out below. Dark Knight should be able to shadowskin (20%), shadow wall(30%), and dark mind(30%) when you consider this in addition to grit DRKs come out ahead. DRKs don't need to reprisal to be more mp efficient nor offer more mitigation. The only thing Warrior has to offer is IB and Vengeance. Thrill isn't more mitigation it only serves to grant more hp/self heal. Past that point it has no mp efficiency like other CDs. I would say DRK/WAR is the best alternative personally.

If Divine Veil isn't something that is needed for the mega/teraflare mechanic then it won't really mean too much.