DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

Tbh, I'd imagine them buffing drg just like they did with blm

The positionals definitely do not need to be removed, it's the play style of DRG. Frankly i love the reward for hitting a positional correctly, there's a sound difference with a successful hit.
Just buff the potency of a couple moves for better sustained damage (ie. Heavy Thrust %/TTT).
Or give something like Disembowel a 10% deduction in Def instead of just piercing dmg. Make up for the lower dmg with higher party dmg. ('More utility')
Or make Blood for blood exclusively for DRG. (Call it Dragon's blood or something)
Raise M.def is a given.

There's also a point where if you miss the second move in the chain (ie. Vorpal Thrust/Disembowel) you have to restart the combo; this is not the same for MNK afaik.
There needs to be a better payout for playing DRG, BRDs burst harder than DRGs...

What I think they need to do:

-Make Heavy Thrust give a 30% buff
-Increase Dragonfire Dive potency

These two buffs could make DRG godly.

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Originally Posted by Megumino2

Tbh, I'd imagine them buffing drg just like they did with blm

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The only thing I'd really ask for other than a raw Potency buff is better MDef and maybe a way to allow multiple DRG's to stack well in the same way multiple NINs and MNK's do. It's really bizarre how two DRG's don't actually benefit from each other due to how impulse drive->disembowel->chaos thrust is structured but the flexible combos NIN and MNK have let one give the other a very substantial DPS boost if you stack them in a party.

DRG's only real problem, as I'll stress, is numbers. As many have noted, the positional all-or-nothing system is a playstyle many of us actually enjoy. The problem is, regardless of whether we like it, we just can't compete with other melee DPS regardless of how well or poorly we do. Even the 12% DPS boost across two bards doesn't compare to the 20% more top-end DPS a MNK or NIN does than a DRG.

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Originally Posted by EllPii

There's also a point where if you miss the second move in the chain (ie. Vorpal Thrust/Disembowel) you have to restart the combo; this is not the same for MNK afaik

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MNK combos are so flexible it's not even funny. It's part of why a good MNK can still consistently outdo a NIN in real-fight scenarios, contrary to what people claim.

I personally feel like ninja and monk have to work a lot harder to get that dps with more room for error. Ninjutsu CAN mess up if you press and perhaps it lags and press the wrong input again. Yes you can mess up a sneak attack/trick attack if the tank moves the monster JUST how you can mess up heavy thrust/impulse same way. Monk you can lose your greased that you have to build up and have to constantly use positional. All in all I personally don't have a problem with positional attacks on dragoon and think they are fine. Every job brings something different to the party. Monks will have SUSTAINED damage while a dragoon will have BURST damage. You gain some and you lose some. I can tell you personally that monk and ninja are significantly more difficult to play than dragoon. I can also tell you that the majority of dragoons I see play don't play properly so to base the damage of dragoon on the majority of players is illogical to me.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

I personally feel like ninja and monk have to work a lot harder to get that dps with more room for error.

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This is ironic, right?

NIN is the easiest DPS class I have played in my life and I mained DRG for 8 months.

The only hard part is maintaining Hoton, which is miles easier than maintaining HT or GL because all you have to do is tap 1-2-3 every 60 seconds and make sure you don't tap 2-3-1 or 2-3 with 1/3rd of your CDs instead. Missing Trick Attack is pretty bad, but you have plenty of time to land it and it doesn't hold up your entire knife rotation just because you can't get it right away. Whereas, as a DRG, you pretty much need to stop doing anything until you can get Hthrust + IDrive->Disembowel out because of how much the Full Thrust combo sucks.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

I can tell you personally that monk and ninja are significantly more difficult to play than dragoon. I can also tell you that the majority of dragoons I see play don't play properly so to base the damage of dragoon on the majority of players is illogical to me.

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DRG is so much easier than MNK/NIN that most people can't do it right ...

uh, what?

How exactly does Square Enix go on about "balancing" whem Dragoons do the least damage in the game? It is ridiculous how they are constantly outclassed by their competition, a major buff is overdue.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

I personally feel like ninja and monk have to work a lot harder to get that dps with more room for error.

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Personally I consider this to be all but correct, coming from someone who has played all three classes. The issue here, however, is not whether or not a player is able to maintain his/her individual buffs/debuffs, but is the fact that when done correctly, the difference in DPS is still massive.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

So to summarise:
-Dragoons that perfectly execute their rotation will not be able to touch the dps output of a monk or ninja that executes their rotation perfectly.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

I personally feel like ninja and monk have to work a lot harder to get that dps with more room for error. Ninjutsu CAN mess up if you press and perhaps it lags and press the wrong input again. Yes you can mess up a sneak attack/trick attack if the tank moves the monster JUST how you can mess up heavy thrust/impulse same way. Monk you can lose your greased that you have to build up and have to constantly use positional. All in all I personally don't have a problem with positional attacks on dragoon and think they are fine. Every job brings something different to the party. Monks will have SUSTAINED damage while a dragoon will have BURST damage. You gain some and you lose some. I can tell you personally that monk and ninja are significantly more difficult to play than dragoon. I can also tell you that the majority of dragoons I see play don't play properly so to base the damage of dragoon on the majority of players is illogical to me.

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We're not basing DRG damage on the majority of players. The fact is, DRG brings NOTHING that other classes don't bring in far better ways when played perfectly. Burst Damage? Ninjas have just as good if not better burst than DRGs and they're able to bring near-monk level sustained damage. Sustained damage? Again, far inferior to the best a monk or ninja can bring. Utility? My post earlier covers just how little of that DRG has in comparison to the other melee classes. That leaves... nothing! DRG brings absolutely nothing to the table that other classes don't bring in an even better way.

I've always viewed DRG to be burst DPS rather than sustaining super high numbers.
I don't have much input regarding this matter, because tbh I am content as to where DRG is now.
I've seen this trend so much in previous MMO's once said class is buffed it becomes SOOOOO OP that other classes begin to bitch and whine, demanding a buff to compete.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

We're not basing DRG damage on the majority of players.

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Yeah, let's be clear here. When we say "Dragoon's damage is low", we're literally talking about perfect high level play where you never miss a single Heavy Thrust and always get a perfect Impulse Drive on the exact tip of the GCD every single time. You still won't reach the DPS of a Monk repeatedly making mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Powress

What I think they need to do:

-Make Heavy Thrust give a 30% buff
-Increase Dragonfire Dive potency

These two buffs could make DRG godly.

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Maybe take Feint off the GCD, too. Maybe 130 potency on a 35 second cool down. That would add up over a long fight, just like Leg Sweep does.

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Originally Posted by Natida

I've always viewed DRG to be burst DPS rather than sustaining super high numbers.

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While it is true that DRGs have quite insane burst damage, as long as the fight goes on for anything more than about two minutes, the difference becomes extremely clear. This means that for end-game content such as FCoB where fights last about 9 minutes at least, DRGs are really at a disadvantage. Even if they manage to burst up a little bit again mid-fight with BFB, MNKs/NINs have their own job-respective buffs to give them little periods of increased DPS as well.

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Originally Posted by EirlysC

While it is true that DRGs have quite insane burst damage, as long as the fight goes on for anything more than about two minutes, the difference becomes extremely clear. This means that for end-game content such as FCoB where fights last about 9 minutes at least, DRGs are really at a disadvantage. Even if they manage to burst up a little bit again mid-fight with BFB, MNKs/NINs have their own job-respective buffs to give them little periods of increased DPS as well.

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When i first viewed this thread, I was under the impression it was just rage about the positionals.
Aside from having to dance with bosses in end game, what number range are people expecting from DRG.
I'll admit it is quite annoying when a boss turns, yadda yadda, but i've managed to work around this and go with the flow.
Even in a 9 minute i don't think the gap is a insane margin that everyone is making it out to be. Collectively as a group if the dps is high enough to me the checks, then thats good.
But seeing drgs in final coil averaging between 430-450 dps I don't consider it being THAT far behind.

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Originally Posted by EirlysC

While it is true that DRGs have quite insane burst damage, as long as the fight goes on for anything more than about two minutes, the difference becomes extremely clear. This means that for end-game content such as FCoB where fights last about 9 minutes at least, DRGs are really at a disadvantage. Even if they manage to burst up a little bit again mid-fight with BFB, MNKs/NINs have their own job-respective buffs to give them little periods of increased DPS as well.

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NIN also has a higher 2-3 minutes burst opener than DRG, anyway, and provides more synergy for parties oriented around performing high burn phases.

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Originally Posted by Natida

Aside from having to dance with bosses in end game, what number range are people expecting from DRG.

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A number range in both damage and defenses competitive with the other melee DPS classes in the game, one of which provides far more party utility and burst than Dragoons ostensibly do, while requiring less hassle.

We're literally asking for there to be a mechanical, numerical reason to bring a DRG over a MNK or a NIN. That's called game balance. Currently, there are multiple pro's and con's between NIN and MNK, but both of them visbily outclass DRG.

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Originally Posted by Krr

A number range competitive with the other melee DPS classes in the game, one of which provides far more party utility than Dragoons do.

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But that doesn't answer my question.
I'm out of the loop when it comes to mnk/nin, although I've been following Wabakisnatcher's stream, and seeing his dps on Nin has set a standard of what to expect from competent nins.
Seeing him peak 475 sustained on NIN and the MNK in his static ranging anywhere between 450-495.
I still don't believe DRGs are as shafted as people are making it out to be.
Now, utility is definitely a legitimate concern. Although I have no constructive feedback in providing a solution to that.
(Have a bard? Doesn't hurt to bring a DRG.)

140+ likes and still no rep response?! :(

Please don't leave us jumping for nothing SE.

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Originally Posted by Natida

But that doesn't answer my question.
I'm out of the loop when it comes to mnk/nin, although I've been following Wabakisnatcher's stream, and seeing his dps on Nin has set a standard of what to expect from competent nins.
Seeing him peak 475 sustained on NIN and the MNK in his static ranging anywhere between 450-495.
I still don't believe DRGs are as shafted as people are making it out to be.
Now, utility is definitely a legitimate concern. Although I have no constructive feedback in providing a solution to that.

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You don't believe that a difference of 45 dps (using your own example) between the max potential of a Monk and a DRG is DRGs getting as shafted as we claim? That's 10% more damage, which is far from what I would refer to as balanced, especially considering how much more utility a monk has over a DRG.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Back when I mained DRG I honest to god thought that having even a second thunderstorm on you meant hard-coded instant death no matter what and that there was no avoiding it, because of how much damage they do to us even with one ball out. I also thought Ancient Quaga in ST was designed to instantly kill people instead of severely damaging them. After I switched to NIN I realized I could actually take a second thunderstorm and live, among various other things. This is NIN, which we're told frequently is the 'most fragile' melee DPS of the three by NINs who desperately don't want to get nerfed.



That's how bad DRG's MDef is, people.

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But this is a gear issue, not a job issue.

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Originally Posted by Felis

But this is a gear issue, not a job issue.

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It's a job issue because it only applies to the gear which is specific to that job.

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Originally Posted by Natida

I still don't believe DRGs are as shafted as people are making it out to be.
Now, utility is definitely a legitimate concern. Although I have no constructive feedback in providing a solution to that.
(Have a bard? Doesn't hurt to bring a DRG.)

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Well I mean, it hurts, because you could have another melee that brings more.

It's not the dps, which is 40~ according to your example. It's the lack of dps combined with the lack of utility.

If you do less damage, then you must bring something to the party.

If monk did less damage than dragoon, people would still take them for dragonkick int debuff and traited mantra. The current issue is that there's no reason to bring a dragoon. You do less damage, you do not bring any utility as disembowel is a straight dps buff and the 6-7% increase for a single bard doesn't catch you up to ninja or monk. You take more damage. You lose more dps over mechanics forcing you to miss positionals. You even use more tp.

You mentioned that dragoon was supposed to be the burst class but burst is usually not that relevant in fights and even so bard, summoner, and even perhaps ninja with +10% for the entire party during those 10 seconds all out burst dragoon.

This is what i completely feel right now, Less damage than MNK and NIN and less utility than NIN..

DRG buffs inc. on jap. forums.

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Originally Posted by Aeromat

DRG buffs inc. on jap. forums.

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About time too.

I hope they get rid of at least half the "please stand here or be arsed" so called "buffs" and instead place a % of damage being permanent like Rogue/Ninja. Dragoons are supposed to have some of the most powerful DPS attacks and in this game they're more like a wet noodle...

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Originally Posted by Aeromat

DRG buffs inc. on jap. forums.

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Well, they only say that they appreciate the "feedback" and they will look into it. We need to wait a little longer for an update.

Let's hope it will be for 2.5 at least..

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Well, they only say that they appreciate the "feedback" and they will look into it. We need to wait a little longer for an update.

Let's hope it will be for 2.5 at least..

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who cares, at least they're getting up and doing something.

Yeah, technically it says that "Buffing process is underway", but that's how Japanese say things.

Still, they recognized the issue so all is good.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

The whole magic damage argument has been going on for a long time, I am neutral on it, I do not think it is a necessary change, dragoons aren't just falling over to raid damage unless they were not topped off which is either a healer issue or the dragoon is taking extra damage from other sources than the magic damage.

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Please any dragoon on T12 talk to this man about a little thing called Flame's of Rebirth. (since you don't know flames of rebirth is a raid wide Magic AoE that the boss does that gets stronger every time it ticks off, around the 10th stack my Dragoon could no longer B4B, 12 Stacks I needed personal adlo, 14stacks unable to be helped and the rest of the party is alive and kicking)

The way around this by the way is to get i90 crafted jewelry melded with Vit to make our dps even lower.

They're working on the buffs currently and are already considering our own discussions. They said please wait a little longer (please look forward to it)

It's coming guys and we did it; congrats to everyone and finally we can put this class imbalance behind us.

(inb4 30% damage from Heavy Thrust and DRGs become undisputed GOAT)

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Originally Posted by Seoki

(inb4 30% damage from Heavy Thrust and DRGs become undisputed GOAT)

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I mean not that I'm saying yas to that but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

Well, they only say that they appreciate the "feedback" and they will look into it.

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No, they are not saying that. They are saying that they are already mid-tuning/adjusting of said buffs but that they can't give us a schedule yet for the actual implementation. Instead, they will report on the topic again when they are more knowledgeable. Just telling us to wait a bit longer. That's a lot more optimistic than "they will look into it", ie. things are already being done.

So what's the current highest seen full thrust hit right now? At i130 weapon? 135?

My drg is only at i105 and my highest full thrust with a liberator is around 1500. I'm guessing that my det is pretty low.

For comparison my GF is ilvl110 and the highest I've ever seen her hit is 1678.

This is using a 3 stat Novus.

I can imagine the number with a 130-135 being stupidly high.

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Originally Posted by Aeromat

who cares, at least they're getting up and doing something.

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I care, because if it's planned for 3.0 I would be disappointed. I'm glad we (we as in on the JP forum of course) got a response though.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

So what's the current highest seen full thrust hit right now? At i130 weapon? 135?

My drg is only at i105 and my highest full thrust with a liberator is around 1500. I'm guessing that my det is pretty low.

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I'm an iLvl 108 DRG and my Novus has 15 Acc, 30 Crit and 30 Det. I hit over 1750 the other day in Shiva Ex. That was with a food buff though. In places which have the Echo I have hit over 2000 a few times.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

So what's the current highest seen full thrust hit right now? At i130 weapon? 135?

My drg is only at i105 and my highest full thrust with a liberator is around 1500. I'm guessing that my det is pretty low.

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I116 Dragoon with HA weapon, fully buffed FT (disembowel + heavy thrust + X pot + life surge) 1800-1900. I've hit almost 2200 with a ninja.

I don't think dragoon's full thrust combo will get a potency increase.
I do see jumps getting a potency increases.
I do see power surge getting a time reduction
I do see elusive jump getting its time decreased and invincibility frames.
I do see impulse drive getting a larger hit box

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Originally Posted by Gardes

So what's the current highest seen full thrust hit right now? At i130 weapon? 135?

My drg is only at i105 and my highest full thrust with a liberator is around 1500. I'm guessing that my det is pretty low.

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Put this into comparison:

Over 4-5 minutes of hitting a striking dummy til their tp runs dry, an i110 monk and ninja would be hitting around or above 500 dps, while an i110 dragoon would be hitting at just about 450 dps tops. And trust me, hitting that 450 threshold on Dragoon is not that easy. I'm still struggling to consistently keep up 430.

I signed this.