60 Minute Time Limit on New Dungeons

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I somehow doubt that what you'll get for clearing the dungeon faster will be just a mount.

Though if you want a story-connected timed dungeon, you could also mention Caverns of Time: Culling of Stratholme. Which again netted you a mount and an extra badge to trade in for gear. Wasn't a bad deal and you could meet the conditions with some gear and after learning the dungeon. Here's the kicker, though: stuff like ZA and CoS worked because they were dungeons for level capped players. Neither was mid-game content. Which means you're not gonna gear up and learn the dungeon, but instead outlevel it. (Edit: And before you even think about it, level caps in the dungeons would be a very sloppy way of combating that)

That and I somehow can't bring myself to trust SE's developers to be that good at dungeon design, though.

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There can be miracles, when you believe
Though hope is frail, it's hard to kill
Who knows what miracles you can achieve
When you believe, somehow you will
You will when you believe

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Originally Posted by Joeking

There can be miracles, when you believe
Though hope is frail, it's hard to kill
Who knows what miracles you can achieve
When you believe, somehow you will
You will when you believe

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YOU WILL WHEN YYYYOOOUUUUUU BELIEVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *parts the red sea*

A time limit forces replay value. Take that as a good or bad thing.


Also this just in:
Releasing in summer 2012: FINAL FANTASY XIV

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Originally Posted by Reaux

YOU WILL WHEN YYYYOOOUUUUUU BELIEVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *parts the red sea*

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*snorts coffee through nostrils*

You guys are killing me XD

Lol Thought I would check the numbers again.. 32 to 78 Looks like Time Limits are still the way to go..

Time Limit = Replay Value
No Time Limit = One Run

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Originally Posted by Joeking

There can be miracles, when you believe
Though hope is frail, it's hard to kill
Who knows what miracles you can achieve
When you believe, somehow you will
You will when you believe

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*tilts head in confusion*

はー？

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Originally Posted by Kiote

Time Limit = Replay Value
No Time Limit = One Run

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False. I clearly remember doing Heroic Utgarde Pinnacle lots of times to get Red Sword of Courage. I also did Halls of Lightning lots of times for the +Defense rating trinket. Neither had a time limit. Were replayed lots of times.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

unless they have a global cooldown like they do with leves. That I would prefer. Make it JP midnight or something.

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Downside to that is that 5 minutes after the reset you'd have 90% of the server lined up outside. The guildleve counter was crowded as hell every 36 hours, if I recall correctly. Better to have personalized resets that spread out the crowd.

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Originally Posted by Reaux

Everyone that wants dungeons super badly go play Etrian Odyssey III, it's out and super fun!

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Fixed :p

Im all for time limits on dungeons and most content. I do want a few fights that are gruelling battles of attrition that puts the players stamina, abilities, and knowledge of the games mechanics through a long test that can be attempted by all but accomplished by a few. Not make it primary content but have it as a few extras that add to the over all experience.

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Originally Posted by Koga

Aion has instanced dungeons & they are timed. Example, fort instance battles where the chest disappears. it is on a timer. it is a challenge based on time so SE just likes time trials, so what? i like time trials it is more demanding.

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WoW has time limits as well on stuff thats meant to be "challenging", like the Zul Aman timeruns, where you only get the Bear Mount if you manage to safe all 4 prisoners in time.(old Zul Aman, no clue how the new Zul aman in Cata works)

There are a lot of MMOs out there that have time limits on stuff. Usually its stuff thats meant to be challenging cause a timelimit will add to that challenge!

PS: If you need to go afk to pamper a crying baby...don't you think you shouldn't be playing endgame in an MMORPG at all? I'm sick of people thinking everything needs to be catered to them. If you can't invest time for a game that demands time investment, fnid yourself another game that does allow you to invest less time(focused time)

I play FFXIV a lot, cause I only work part time and got a gf that I can only see on the weekends(where I don't play at all).
But believe me...the moment I work full time and got something like a baby to take care of this game is history. There is more important stuff than this and if you fail to see this, you have my sincere pity...I only ivnest this much time into this game cause I can and the game more or less demands and it's not going to be better(less time) at all, so if you can't handle this fact, you shouldn't have started playing XIV in the first place. I know SE said the game will be more casual than XI...but honestly...are you that naive to think an MMO won't be a huge timesink at ALL times? There is no MMO out there that's not a huge timesink if you want to be a "good" player, no matter how "casual" the devs of it say it is.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

PS: If you need to go afk to pamper a crying baby...don't you think you shouldn't be playing endgame in an MMORPG at all? I'm sick of people thinking everything needs to be catered to them. If you can't invest time for a game that demands time investment, fnid yourself another game that does allow you to invest less time(focused time)

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That's the only reason I'm playing XIV instead of XI.

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I play FFXIV a lot, cause I only work part time and got a gf that I can only see on the weekends(where I don't play at all).
But believe me...the moment I work full time and got something like a baby to take care of this game is history. There is more important stuff than this and if you fail to see this, you have my sincere pity...I only ivnest this much time into this game cause I can and the game more or less demands and it's not going to be better(less time) at all, so if you can't handle this fact, you shouldn't have started playing XIV in the first place. I know SE said the game will be more casual than XI...but honestly...are you that naive to think an MMO won't be a huge timesink at ALL times? There is no MMO out there that's not a huge timesink if you want to be a "good" player, no matter how "casual" the devs of it say it is.

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D&D Online. Of course, depends what you mean by good.

By good I mean "can make a positive contribution to a raid group" or "can handle all level-appropriate content without hindering the party". Not "has run everything 500x" or "has all the best gear".

I don't want to read through all 25 pages...
But what if there are 10 or 20 bosses in the dungeons and you only have time for 1. You would have to choose what one. Or what path to take to get to the boss you want. Or maybe they could be random bosses out a select number. Each boss a different strat. Maybe multiple paths to take. A maze. Who know really? But I think it's much too early to complain. :)

By "good" I mean being able to participate in the most hardest stuff available right now and being able to beat it, which usually implies huge timsesinks, either to prepare for the battle, to learn the strategy or whatever.

All MMORPGs have said endgame content that demands more time investment than anything else, if you're not able to "focus" on that for whatever reason, you shouldn't play this game instead of asking SE to change it the way where it's ok for you to half ass a fight cause you're busy doing other things.

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

By "good" I mean being able to participate in the most hardest stuff available right now and being able to beat it, which usually implies huge timsesinks, either to prepare for the battle, to learn the strategy or whatever.

All MMORPGs have said endgame content that demands more time investment than anything else, if you're not able to "focus" on that for whatever reason, you shouldn't play this game instead of asking SE to change it the way where it's ok for you to half ass a fight cause you're busy doing other things.

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And if I can find things to do on my schedule that keep me interested?
If I don't have time for endgame content, I'll do the content which I do have time for. But why should I stop playing the game if there is content appropriate to my schedule that I can do instead? Are endgame players the only ones worthy of enjoying an MMO?

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Originally Posted by Lerris

And if I can find things to do on my schedule that keep me interested?
If I don't have time for endgame content, I'll do the content which I do have time for. But why should I stop playing the game if there is content appropriate to my schedule that I can do instead? Are endgame players the only ones worthy of enjoying an MMO?

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nope
everyone should get to enjoy them

but this concept is beyond people in every MMO, 99% of players who are active in the forums especialy, are those who are the most active in games, and have endgame characters
thats why all you see is outcry over anything not endgame related being added to pretty much every mmo out there

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Originally Posted by TirionCrey

There is no MMO out there that's not a huge timesink if you want to be a "good" player, no matter how "casual" the devs of it say it is.

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Team Fortress 2.

It has all the earmarks of an MMO:

• 9 distinct classes.
• Lots of gear to acquire as you play.
• Robust crafting system.
• Hats.

I know you're going to argue here, so I'll address your questions.

"But TF2 doesn't have a persistent world?"

That's only because they keep blowing up the landmarks every week.

"What's massive about it?"

Meet the Heavy.

Restrictions are a double edged sword. FFXI has proven that they create much frustration and problems.

Dynamis restricitons where bad, it turned into a regular friggin job to attend and get a slot to enter. VERY BAD!

Assault Tags where stupid. A better restriction would have been to only allow Assaults to be repeated after 24h so the popular ones would not get spammed.

Nyzul was good because it was challangeing, short and fast paced!

Salvage was great because it was again, short, strategic and had soooo many different approaches to finish. The only thing that sucked where the drop rates and SE can blame themselves for the duping.

Campaign was great as it had no limitation but a restriction in how fast you can rank up (based on time and effort).


My hope is they learned from that and stay away from the bad restrictions. They just create frustration. Please SE be smart this time, the game is already on it's last leg.


PS: Remove the existing bad restrictions. No gathering fatigue, reduce the yields instead. No surplus, adjust the level curve. 24h leve reset at midnight, make the leves longer and the time limit harder. There, fixed it for you, now go get cracking!

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Originally Posted by Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

R
Dynamis restricitons where bad, it turned into a regular friggin job to attend and get a slot to enter. VERY BAD!

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Player perception.

Dynamis Jeuno, Sandoria, Windurst, Bastok, Beaucidine and Xarcabard had a 36, note, 36 player cap. That was a lot larger than a lot of MMO raid caps, the only issue with this is, the alliance that doesn't kill the boss won't get the ending key item, which may or may not have been changed given the recent dynamis changes.

Dynamis Valkurm, Buburimu, Qufim and Tavnazia had 18 player cap. So showing up like a job? That's a player induced thing, a lot of XI events and HNMs were designed to be done with just whoever wanted to do it, players decided to turn it into a clique type thing like other MMOs cuz remember, the linkshell system was merely designed as a worldwide chat channel between friends.

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Assault Tags where stupid. A better restriction would have been to only allow Assaults to be repeated after 24h so the popular ones would not get spammed.

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Assault tags were great. They prevented gear flooding all at once and players from plowing through all content. Restrictions in MMOs exist and will always exist. The issue was they were very limited, only 5(6) can be held in total.

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Nyzul was good because it was challangeing, short and fast paced!

Salvage was great because it was again, short, strategic and had soooo many different approaches to finish. The only thing that sucked where the drop rates and SE can blame themselves for the duping.

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Short, fast paced is what's killing the MMORPG genre in terms of challenges. They can't blame themselves for duping as it's like blaming the home owner that got robbed because he went outside for a few minutes to get fresh air. If you can use an exploit it doesn't mean you have to use it, they didn't hurt from having an exploit in the game, the group of linkshells that got shattered and thousands upon thousands of players who got banned were the ones that got hurt.

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Campaign was great as it had no limitation but a restriction in how fast you can rank up (based on time and effort).

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Campaign has restrictions, which is why I find it odd you'd call it great when it employed Assault restrictions. Huh.

The only people who approve of such short time limits are the stubborn few who will follow this game for years even if nothing is added, ever. One hour is not enough content after a 5 months wait: The End.

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Originally Posted by Luhy

The only people who approve of such short time limits are the stubborn few who will follow this game for years even if nothing is added, ever. One hour is not enough content after a 5 months wait: The End.

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You do know the main purpose of the "wait" was system overhaul right? It took SE maybe half a year to produce Abyssea between 3 separate consecutive updates. If their focus was content there would be more content, just like XI's focus is content and small system revisions...guess what XI isn't focusing on?

Overhauls. Unless I've been playing the wrong FFXI I'm pretty sure the game is flooded with things to do and things to get.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Player perception.

Dynamis Jeuno, Sandoria, Windurst, Bastok, Beaucidine and Xarcabard had a 36, note, 36 player cap. That was a lot larger than a lot of MMO raid caps, the only issue with this is, the alliance that doesn't kill the boss won't get the ending key item, which may or may not have been changed given the recent dynamis changes.

Dynamis Valkurm, Buburimu, Qufim and Tavnazia had 18 player cap. So showing up like a job? That's a player induced thing, a lot of XI events and HNMs were designed to be done with just whoever wanted to do it, players decided to turn it into a clique type thing like other MMOs cuz remember, the linkshell system was merely designed as a worldwide chat channel between friends.



Assault tags were great. They prevented gear flooding all at once and players from plowing through all content. Restrictions in MMOs exist and will always exist. The issue was they were very limited, only 5(6) can be held in total.



Short, fast paced is what's killing the MMORPG genre in terms of challenges. They can't blame themselves for duping as it's like blaming the home owner that got robbed because he went outside for a few minutes to get fresh air. If you can use an exploit it doesn't mean you have to use it, they didn't hurt from having an exploit in the game, the group of linkshells that got shattered and thousands upon thousands of players who got banned were the ones that got hurt.



Campaign has restrictions, which is why I find it odd you'd call it great when it employed Assault restrictions. Huh.

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Hmmm? Original Dynamis had 64 person cap, Dreamworld Dynamis was 36, except Tavnazian Safehold, which was 18.

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Originally Posted by quantumsaint

Hmmm? Original Dynamis had 64 person cap, Dreamworld Dynamis was 36, except Tavnazian Safehold, which was 18.

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correct, i was going to post that

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Player perception.

Dynamis Jeuno, Sandoria, Windurst, Bastok, Beaucidine and Xarcabard had a 36, note, 36 player cap. That was a lot larger than a lot of MMO raid caps, the only issue with this is, the alliance that doesn't kill the boss won't get the ending key item, which may or may not have been changed given the recent dynamis changes.

Dynamis Valkurm, Buburimu, Qufim and Tavnazia had 18 player cap. So showing up like a job? That's a player induced thing, a lot of XI events and HNMs were designed to be done with just whoever wanted to do it, players decided to turn it into a clique type thing like other MMOs cuz remember, the linkshell system was merely designed as a worldwide chat channel between friends.



Assault tags were great. They prevented gear flooding all at once and players from plowing through all content. Restrictions in MMOs exist and will always exist. The issue was they were very limited, only 5(6) can be held in total.



Short, fast paced is what's killing the MMORPG genre in terms of challenges. They can't blame themselves for duping as it's like blaming the home owner that got robbed because he went outside for a few minutes to get fresh air. If you can use an exploit it doesn't mean you have to use it, they didn't hurt from having an exploit in the game, the group of linkshells that got shattered and thousands upon thousands of players who got banned were the ones that got hurt.



Campaign has restrictions, which is why I find it odd you'd call it great when it employed Assault restrictions. Huh.

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they were designed to be claimed and killed by one party. not a who ever type thing. thats why they had single claim rule for that stuff. Campaign was for everybody.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Player perception.

Assault tags were great. They prevented gear flooding all at once and players from plowing through all content. Restrictions in MMOs exist and will always exist. The issue was they were very limited, only 5(6) can be held in total.

Short, fast paced is what's killing the MMORPG genre in terms of challenges. They can't blame themselves for duping as it's like blaming the home owner that got robbed because he went outside for a few minutes to get fresh air. If you can use an exploit it doesn't mean you have to use it, they didn't hurt from having an exploit in the game, the group of linkshells that got shattered and thousands upon thousands of players who got banned were the ones that got hurt.

Campaign has restrictions, which is why I find it odd you'd call it great when it employed Assault restrictions. Huh.

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You didnt get my post, i said restrictions are good, but there are BAD ways to implement them.

Dynamis was, as others mentioned, a MASSIVE event when it came out and to even get half of the people something for their effort you had to make sure to run it on the SPOT everytime you could enter. Not missing a Minute if possible. This was not a restriction made by players. If you could have entered it once a day like it is now, it would have been much more relaxed. Why you think 99% of all fully upgraded relic holders where early Dynamis LS leaders?

Assault tags where restricting multiple events at once, one of the worst ideas ever. Not only did you get just one per day, no, you also had to decide between doing Assault, Nyzul isle or farming Assault Points for Salvage. That was the most retarded restriction conceived by SE so far. Your argument of gear flooding ad plowing through content is silly because it can be restricted in other ways than not letting people PLAY WHAT THEY PAY FOR.

Let me put it another way so it is more understandable. Events (or Gameplay) should not be restricted, the rewards should be scaled towards the maximum possible. This is called game balancing.

If i want to fish for 10 hours. I should be able to do so, unrestricted. If i want to experience for 5 days in a row, 6h each. Should i be able to do that without getting "Bonus Experience"? Yes, of cause and i should get more exp and rightfully so.

If Developers put in restrictions to circumvent bad balancing on their part then it only hurts the active players (the ones that pay for a long time).

If i want to do something in a game i pay for i should be able to do it unrestricted. Should i get rewards and max level easy mode, NO, i never said that.

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Originally Posted by Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

You didnt get my post, i said restrictions are good, but there are BAD ways to implement them.

Dynamis was, as others mentioned, a MASSIVE event when it came out and to even get half of the people something for their effort you had to make sure to run it on the SPOT everytime you could enter. Not missing a Minute if possible. This was not a restriction made by players. If you could have entered it once a day like it is now, it would have been much more relaxed. Why you think 99% of all fully upgraded relic holders where early Dynamis LS leaders?

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Because relics were ridiculously expensive. That doesn't really have anything to do with this argument though.

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Assault tags where restricting multiple events at once, one of the worst ideas ever. Not only did you get just one per day, no, you also had to decide between doing Assault, Nyzul isle or farming Assault Points for Salvage. That was the most retarded restriction conceived by SE so far. Your argument of gear flooding ad plowing through content is silly because it can be restricted in other ways than not letting people PLAY WHAT THEY PAY FOR.

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Assault and farming AP for Salvage were the same thing. The only conflict of time is Assault vs Nyzul, and Nyzul was added pretty late in the game after everyone had complained that there was no reason to do Assault anymore except for Salvage AP.

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Let me put it another way so it is more understandable. Events (or Gameplay) should not be restricted, the rewards should be scaled towards the maximum possible. This is called game balancing.

If i want to fish for 10 hours. I should be able to do so, unrestricted. If i want to experience for 5 days in a row, 6h each. Should i be able to do that without getting "Bonus Experience"? Yes, of cause and i should get more exp and rightfully so.

If Developers put in restrictions to circumvent bad balancing on their part then it only hurts the active players (the ones that pay for a long time).

If i want to do something in a game i pay for i should be able to do it unrestricted. Should i get rewards and max level easy mode, NO, i never said that.

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Putting a 60-minute time limit on an event is an entirely different subject from surplus exp and gathering fatigue. I'm not sure what you're arguing for.

Dungeons are 60 minutes, we have no idea how often they'll be repeated but probably at least once a day. I don't see what's so bad about them. If they're made to be 60 minutes once a day, then they're probably designed and balanced for 60 minutes once a day. That's what game balance is: designing the encounter to fit its parameters (ie, level and time).

To bring this back on topic: do you think Assault and Salvage were ruined forever because they were limited to 30/100 minutes or because you only got 1 tag a day?

It's pretty obvious the time limit is to reduce instanced based server lag.

Can you imagine the first day when everyone and their granny is trying these dungeons out and if they stay in their for hours nobody is guna get to play the game because the servers will be crashing ever 2 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Physic

they were designed to be claimed and killed by one party. not a who ever type thing. thats why they had single claim rule for that stuff. Campaign was for everybody.

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Or:

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a lot of XI events and HNMs were designed to be done with just whoever wanted to do it, players decided to turn it into a clique type thing like other MMOs cuz remember, the linkshell system was merely designed as a worldwide chat channel between friends.

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As in the HNMs and events were designed to be done with anyone who would want to do it, which is like how it was back in 2002 where we just went around and if we seen roc up for instance, we just grouped with whoever and tried to kill it. The "job" aspect only came around when people took linkshells from a world chat channel to a clique where you had to put in applications to join the "top" shells.

It's pretty easy to understand.

I'm sure I have to explain this as well:

World Chat Channel = chat you can read and participate no matter what zone you're in, which is what linkshells were for between groups of friends. Not referring to the RMT spam channels of generic MMOs.

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Can you imagine the first day when everyone and their granny is trying these dungeons out and if they stay in their for hours nobody is guna get to play the game because the servers will be crashing ever 2 seconds

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There's going to be epic amounts of delay with the interface still being serverside regardless.

What I am really curious about is, how often are we going to be able to run through the dungeons?

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

What I am really curious about is, how often are we going to be able to run through the dungeons?

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dev said they are discussing that final detail
i bet it settles on 24-36 hours though

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Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

What I am really curious about is, how often are we going to be able to run through the dungeons?

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maybe once every 7 days :)